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I'll just leave this here fyi

http://www.worldaudit.org/demo...

If you do not want USA to have control over your domain get one in a freedom loving country.

What "freedom loving country" would you suggest? no, this is not an attempt to troll, I'm seriously looking for one.

Finland

A number of northern European countries -- Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland -- provide state health care and pensions, but also respect individual liberties to an extent sometimes even beyond in the United States.

Denmark is #3 in the World Audit Civil Liberties rankings.
Finland is #1
Sweden is #2
Norway is #5
The United States is #15.
See here.

These are the classic "Third Way" democracies -- and they outnumber the Stalinist states (USSR, North Korea, Cuba) that are always put up as straw men. In short: Your argument sounds compelling, but, like Aristotle's reasonable-sounding assertion that heaver objects accelerate faster in freefall, it is not supported by empiricism.

17/150 on the http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm scale not that bad but not as good as Canada or Sweden (and both country are corrupt as hell but not as much as they were 50 years ago)

I replied, so that perhaps your eyes (and your fellow country men & women) are opened, and you don't believe the propaganda, I don't mean offence or to put you or Hong Kong down.

sorry, but free world or free country is associated with democracy.
economic freedom or free market is different, a good thing (for the greater good) but different.
a free port, is also something else, that's a tax status.

corruption *perception* not sure how it's measured, but I presume it's not the same as actual corruption rates, in any event there are some democratic countries with higher *rates* of *actual* corruption than dictatorships.
UAE a kingdom is less corrupt than Israel, Spain, Portugal, Taiwan. Also Jordan a kingdom is less corrupt that Italy, Greece.
http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm

That government "thingy" is important for free / freedom, you can't just wave that aside as a small "thingy"!
How does Hong Kong rank for democratically elected government, how does it rank in freedom of speech, freedom of press?, civil liberty?

It ranks high, in money generating, foreign investment bringing ....
brb someone is at the door http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-17/us/websites.chinese.servers_1_web-traffic-china-telecom-security-review-commission?_s=PM:US

The United States is not even close being as corrupt as a 3rd world dictatorship. According to: World Audit, the United States is 16th in the world in terms of being free from corruption. All the countries above it in the rankings are first world democracies (although I admit some people would debate Singapore).

I know it is the fashion to insult the US government at the moment, and there *is* a hell of a lot of room for improvement. However, hyperbole and fighting words (comparing the US government to that of a third world dictatorship) just shuts down debate and, frankly, damages your credibility. Let's keep this civil and factual, OK?

That's only because corruption is LEGAL in the USA. Usually takes the form of campaign contributions or employment for close ones.

The United States is not even close being as corrupt as a 3rd world dictatorship. According to: World Audit, the United States is 16th in the world in terms of being free from corruption. All the countries above it in the rankings are first world democracies (although I admit some people would debate Singapore).

I know it is the fashion to insult the US government at the moment, and there *is* a hell of a lot of room for improvement. However, hyperbole and fighting words (comparing the US government to that of a third world dictatorship) just shuts down debate and, frankly, damages your credibility. Let's keep this civil and factual, OK?

maybe somewhere in europe? http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

Really simply, an economy is a geometric area - of productivity * population.

Both of which are a function of natural resources. Which are depleted by overpopulation and overproduction.

Populations cannot grow without limit. We are alredy past the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

Economists need to join the reality-based community.

Because, I've convinced myself that losing always 'sucks'.

Winning is a peaceful, prosperous, and free nation. If you want a simple economic measure, GNP per capita is a much better indicator of who's living well. Would you rather live in a nation of one thousand people with a $100 million GDP, or a nation of one billion with a $1 billion GDP?

We ought to try winning by hitting number one on the Human Poverty Index, or the Human Development Index, or World Audit's Democracy Table, rather than the "Makes The Most Stuff" Index, or the "Can Blow Up the Most Stuff" Index.

Ok, for the heck of it, I did a crude informal correlation between h.-r. records as per http://www.worldaudit.org/polrights.htm and the OOXML vote. (I may be slightly off due to the fact I don't want to waste too much time on this, but the results should be basically correct.)

Among those abstaining or disapproving, respectively, 88% had h.-r. records in the top half. 69% were in the top 50/150

Among those approving with comments, 69% had records in the top half and 56% were in the top 50/150.

Among those fully approving, only 16% were in the top 50 and only 32% had h.-r. records in the top half.

Costa Rica had the highest h.-r. record (28th) for approving, Germanic countries had the highest records for approving with comments, while Zimbabwe had the worst record to abstain and China (and to a lesser degree Thailand) was unique in having a poor record but disapproved

It is clearly a hyporcracy since, for instance blacks were hardly receiving the "liberty and justice for all" until very recently and many people do not at present. Say it enough and you don't doubt it. That those liberties and justice don't exist hardly matters - people still believe they have them.

Sure, USA is better than China etc, but to be the world leader in freedom that USA claims to be it should be ranking a bit higher than 15/11 on http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm

You may not be near a dictatorship, but you are not as good as you seem to think you are. And certainly not better than the UK.

Freedom of the press survey - http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm

Including democracy and corruption figures - http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

You may not be near a dictatorship, but you are not as good as you seem to think you are. And certainly not better than the UK.

Freedom of the press survey - http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm

Including democracy and corruption figures - http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

Why does a true democracy need to brainwash its kids from an early age with the declaration of independence?

Why does any challenge of USA being such a great democracy end up with it being compared to how much better it is than China etc.. Surely if it is so great it should be compared to some of the top democracies and not the bottom ones?

NZ scored well on the World Audit Democratic thingy-majig which measures "Civil Liberties", "Political Rights", "Press Freedom" and "Corruption".

NZ (Lower is Better)
Overall Ranking: 3/149
Political Rights: 1/7
Civil Liberties: 1/7
Press Freedom: 3/100
Corruption: 2/100

My beloved Canada:
Overall Ranking: 9/149
Political Rights: 1/7
Civil Liberties: 1/7
Press Freedom: 12/100
Corruption: 10/100

And everyones 'favourite' US:
Topics Range Results
Overall Ranking: 12/149
Political Rights: 1/7
Civil Liberties: 1/7
Press Freedom: 9/100
Corruption: 15/100

(This data is a couple years old, IIRC)

All this was taken from http://www.worldaudit.org/.

ND

You live in a country with an incredibly good road system. You can get *anywhere* in the continental US by road. You can't get more than 15 miles away from a road in the continetal US.

And Canada, France, Great Britain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Sweden all have poor transportation?

You have running water. Reliably. You have indoor plumbing. You have readily available food. You have electricity.

Again, CA, FR, GB, IT, DE, SE don't have these?

You live in a place that has as many cars as families, because cars and gas are just that damned cheap here.

Is this a good thing? Do you know how much O2 a 5-liter Uh-mer-kin muscle car chews up just from driving to and from work on a semi-daily basis? Do you have any idea how many CO2-consuming organisms it takes to support your average Camero or Mustang owner? Why do we have so many cars here? Why aren't they needed in Manhattan or in most of Europe? Because our automotive industry killed our light rail industry in the first half of this century. We produce 3% of the world's oil. We consume nearly 60%. Hence our current predicament with our dependency on foreign oil. No, having that many cars is not something to boast about.

You don't have to fear for your life walking down the street (well, in some places, you do, but it's safer here than much of the rest of the world).

In most Iranian metropolitan areas, women can walk around at 03:00 alone without fear of abduction or harassment. People there don't give it any thought. I can't name one major city where this is true in the United States.

This is a nation in which *anyone* can get a job. Not necessarily a good job, or the job they want, but you can land a job that'll pay well enough for you to eat every day.

Unemployment in Switzerland has not reached more than 6% in over ten years. It averages around 3%-4%. You should read this if you want a better handle on what it means to be employed in this country.

I can drink the water anywhere in this nation without fear. Some places it looks a little brown, or have hard water, etc., but you can drink it without *dying*.

Once more, CA, FR, GB, IT, DE, SE don't have these?

You have incredible medical care. I know many places have better systems for covering payment, and it's free in many places, but there's very few places in US where you can't get immediate medical care.

The US has the best doctors in the world. We also have the highest liability. Does this seem odd to you? We are encouraging our doctors to become mediocre because it's not worth it to practice. I've talked with a fair amount of doctors (my family has more than its fair share of people working in medicine). They almost unilaterally have two pieces of advice for people in this country:

1. If you're thinking of becoming a doctor: don't.
2. Don't get sick, because unless you're rich, you'll get shit for care.

It's simply that, the particular set of advantages you get by being an American and living here on American soil is almost impossible to get anywhere else. Many places have worthwhile tradeoffs, but you can't get all the above just about anywhere else.

I realize that many of the above comments don't apply to everywhere in the world, and I apologize to the denizens of any nation that may be that much better, but I think that most of them apply somewhere.

The truth is that many cities outside the US are more livable than those within its borders. Hell, there are 9 countries which rank higher than we do in an audit of world democracies.

Please don't misunderstand. The US is a great place to live...one of the best in the world. I'm just real tired of its citizens thinking that this country's shit

How about it? It provides very little information about how it reaches its numbers,


You must not have spent very much time looking at the data. On the left side in the navigation menu is a link called Methodology

and many of the sources it cites are groups with noted biases in this area (Human Rights Watch comes immediately to mind).

So it's ok for you to used biased sources but not me? :)

For a report of this sort which works harder to back its claims, see Freedom House's annual report for 2001 [freedomhouse.org]. Ironically, the audit you cite claims Freedom House as one of their main sources, but reaches very different results.

Umm.. Freedom house's survey ranks countries on a much smaller scale (1-7). Their results are less granular as a consequence. But in any case, Freedom House gives Sweden and the US the SAME rating. So even their findings (which I would have thought you'd find too vague) do alot more for my argument than for yours.

So, my good man, I have shown you 3 studies from 3 different and very well respected international organisations that state in no uncertain terms that Sweden (since we decided to pick on that country) is AT LEAST AS FREE as the USA. These reports are published by groups with absolutely NO political interest in distorting the facts (unlike special interest lobbies).

So getting back to the root of our argument, the one that started with your question: "Care to point to another nation (UN member or not) whose citizens enjoy as much freedom as Americans do?"

World Audit says: Denmark, New Zealand, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Austria

Freedom House says: Andorra, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize,Canada, Cyprus (G), Demark, Dominica, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Kiribati, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Marshall Islands, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Sweden, Switzerland, Tuvalu, Uruguay

The United Nations says: Norway, Australia, Canada, Sweden and Belgium.

You have to admit... AT THE VERY LEAST.. that whether or not America is the only nation whose citizens enjoy so much freedom is NOT A FORGONE CONCLUSION. ie: (And I'm being nice here) it's at least *debatable*.

The USA offers a level of freedom that is SO close to that offered by most other industrialized democracies, that the ultimate "ranking" comes down to a matter of personal preference for which freedoms are more important than others.

It's been a real pleasure debating with you. You argue like a gentleman. I hope we have the opportunity to be on the same side of an issue one day! ;)

Peace

You maintain that income and purchasing power have nothing to do with standard of living.

I maintain no such thing. I said that income and purchasing power are not in themselves indicative of the standard of living. They form metrics which, when combined with other metrics, can give someone an idea of the standard of living.

by American standards not 5 percent but rather the vast majority percent of Swedes are `poor'

Only if you count cash in hand. Americans are in fact more deeply in debt than swedes. Look. It comes down to the difference between net-worth and cashflow. Americans have high cashflow. Lots more cash in hand, but many more expenses. Swedes earn less, but don't need as much money to lead similar lives.

this is the problem with the UN study you cite -- it takes only your issues into account and not economics or individual liberty, thus providing a picture which is at least as incomplete as you claim that provided by the study I posted is.

Umm.. it does take economics into account. fully one third of the score. But ok. How about this then?

I assert that the US is the most free, the most democratic, and the most prosperous nation on earth,

See the link above as to the first two. As to the third, you and I finally agree. I cannot argue with the statement that the US has the strongest economy in the world. It is simply true.

Peace

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