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Online Gambling Not Banned Yet

For the moment, the rush to legislate the ban on online gambling has been slowed. Senator John Warner, (R) from Virginia, has refused to allow a ban on online gambling to be tacked onto an upcoming defense bill. Opponents of online gambling were hoping to tack their measure on to a "must pass" bill but will apparently be forced to delay. Congress recesses in one week, giving only a few days left if this measure is to be passed before the November 7th elections.

237 comments

  1. lame by ak3ldama · · Score: 1

    i wish they would give up or just legalize it. online gambling really isn't a problem, just like online sales of goods isn't a problem to walmart or best buy.

    --
    "but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
    1. Re:lame by JavaBrain · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My understanding is that online gambling can never be fair, since multiple PC's can be used to play networked games at the same table (in poker, for example) sharing their cards with each other and improving their odds over the "honest" players.

      So yes I think that is a problem.

    2. Re:lame by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The players are adequately warned. They know the risks and they still want to play. It's not for the government to make their decision for them.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:lame by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And when thats discovered, accounts get banned. In real casinos, people play as teams and communicate with each other through codes or just by avoiding each other and splitting profits later. Its no more risky online.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    4. Re:lame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But won't you think of the children?!??!!?

      MY GOD, WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!??!?!?!

      Please, nanny government, please make my decisions for me because I'm a complete and utter retard and can't make them on my own.

    5. Re:lame by truthsearch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I doubt the proposed ban of online gambling has anything to do with bots. I'm sure it has more to do with collecting money. It's very hard (or impossible) to tax.

    6. Re:lame by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it has more to do with collecting money. It's very hard (or impossible) to tax.

      So? When I buy things overseas like electronics parts It's not taxed because it's very hard (or impossible) to tax it.

    7. Re:lame by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      Items transported overseas often have tarrifs. So the government still gets their cut even though you don't see a tax. Besides, the US economy would collapse as it stands now if the government were to ban all international trade.

    8. Re:lame by senatorpjt · · Score: 1, Informative

      Honestly, in all seriousness here, I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that Jesus didn't play poker.

    9. Re:lame by Firehed · · Score: 1

      Apparently your senders aren't familiar with "gift". No tariff on $0.

      Well, sure, it's illegal, but so is speeding - that hardly stops people.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    10. Re:lame by LocalH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      /. needs a (+1, Sarcasm) mod. It looks foolish to call the parent "insightful".

      --
      FC Closer
    11. Re:lame by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      online gambling really isn't a problem, just like online sales of goods isn't a problem to walmart or best buy.

      I thought the problem was about the addiction factor and accessibility. But one could of course argue if the alternative legal forms are much better. However, where I live, there have reportedly been more cases of addiction since online gambling entered the scene. And that's a cost for society to manage if such addictions start implying criminal activity.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    12. Re:lame by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Maybe where you live. Here "gift" only exempts shipments under a certain value.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    13. Re:lame by mustafap · · Score: 1

      >Please, nanny government, please make my decisions for me because I'm a complete and utter retard and can't make them on my own.

      Well, the people voted the government in. I guess that just confirms your point.

      --
      Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    14. Re:lame by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      When I order from ledshoppe.com or qualitychinagoods.com there's no hidden tarrifs or any taxes.

    15. Re:lame by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      I still have to pay a flat tax of 5 euros even when it's a marked as "gift" - if any value is declared I'll pay import taxes on top of this, but there is no escape from the 5 euros tax.
      Things are only going to get worse as the dollar sinks lower, the EU parliament has decided that we must be protected from very cheap goods.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    16. Re:lame by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Letting yourself get nailed to a board and hoping people will get the point seems like a greater gamble to me.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    17. Re:lame by IAmTheDave · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It's not for the government to make their decision for them.

      Not to mention, WTF does it have to do with a defense bill?

      Nothing related to Congress and our current govn't offends me more than the unchallenged ability to "tack on" legislation for topic X that has piss-all to do with the main topic of the bill at hand.

      Congressman A: Here's a bill allocating $50m for breast cancer research!

      Congressman B: Great! I'd like to add a rider that allocates $10m in federal funding for building a bridge somewhere in my state - oh, and my brother-in-law like totally has a construction company!

      --
      Excuse my speling.
      Making The Bar Project
    18. Re:lame by CodeArtisan · · Score: 1

      I thought the problem was about the addiction factor and accessibility. But one could of course argue if the alternative legal forms are much better. However, where I live, there have reportedly been more cases of addiction since online gambling entered the scene. And that's a cost for society to manage if such addictions start implying criminal activity.

      The hypocrisy, of course, lies in the fact that they want to ban it on the basis of addiction, while at ther same time, exempting state lotteries and the like.

    19. Re:lame by 50sQuiff · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is a problem, but it is not an inherent flaw in the online poker concept. I work for a major online poker company and we employ a variety of methods to prevent such behaviour, the most important of which is manual review and retrospective analysis.

      While on the one hand it is easier to pass information between colluding players in online poker than it is in brick & mortar rooms, it is much more difficult to avoid eventual detection online.

      If you suspect you are being cheated in a cardroom or casino you have no recourse. Whereas on our site we will investigate using a fully peer-reviewed system, and then penalise the guilty and compensate the victims.

  2. What is it with tacking things onto bills? by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Surely that's a big bloody hole in the legislative system.. why don't they patch it?

    It's just crazy.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Cylix · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's a feature, not a bug!

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    2. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I wish that were a joke.

      The truth is, legislators WANT the ability to completely change the nature of bills. On the one hand, they can add pork/junk to "important" bills; on the other hand, if they add something that a rival (other party) finds objectionable to a bill that otherwise follows the other party's line (e.g. an anti-abortion rider on a medicare funding bill), they can say that any (democrat/republican) that voted against such a bill is "soft on crime/lying about priorities/etc" and people buy it.. because most people don't read the bills.

      Incidentally, the captcha for this is somehow apt; bumble.

    3. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Cadallin · · Score: 5, Informative
      It's meant to be a balance issue, so that a minority party can theoretically attach things they want to bills the majority "must pass." In reality, its gets used for this kind of moralistic bullshit, and for sneaky atrocity like attaching "Dump Nuclear Waste in Lake Michigan" to bills entitled "People Shouldn't Molest Babies."

      Ultimately, I'd argue that its an ineffective band-aid on the cancerous sore that is our winner-take-all legislative system. We desperately need to have proportional represention. Like, you know, every free nation on Earth. But the powers that be are too entrenched in the two party system.

    4. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Aeron65432 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Actually, they attempted to watch it once with the Line Item Veto Act which gave the President authority to go through a bill and veto individual parts, part of the "Balanced Budget Act of 1997". The idea was to get pork barrel spending and these kind of riders out of important legislation. Ie- Bush could hypothetically have vetoed the online-gambling ban even if it was in a military appropriations bill. It was struck down in Federal court as unconstitutional.


      Amusingly enough, the first senator to complain was Mr. Robert Byrd who is notorious for being one of the worst for pork barrel spending

    5. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Mike89 · · Score: 1

      I remember on The Simpsons when Lionel Hutz did it for Lisa (AFAIK), and thinking Gee, that's a stupid system. Didn't know it actually happened like that..

    6. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Talian · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's the best question yet. Any of you legal eagles know of a proposed law to eliminate riders? And if not, who's in a tight election who needs some "motivation".

    7. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Pichu0102 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even better, tack something onto another must pass bill that says no riders whatsoever.
      Then wait for the people in Congress to take a while scratching their heads about that one.

    8. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've always thought that American legislators were bored... I mean, if you're just going to vote on stuff, pass laws... BORING. So they decided to spice it up. Put in a few rules to turn the whole thing into a strategy game.

    9. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Like, you know, every free nation on Earth.

      You mean all those nations that don't have a Bill of Rights?

    10. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      what we really need is a single subject law, so any bill may only refer to one subject, any passed with multiple subjects would be considered void and must pass again as single parts

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    11. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by O'Laochdha · · Score: 1

      Well, that's what this "moralistic bullshit" is: it's a minority party attaching things to a "must pass" bill. It's just not an organized party. They know that the bill couldn't pass on its own, so they attach it to a bill that's certain to. How is that different from any other minority agendum attached to such a bill?

    12. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by jackbird · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right, because in proportional systems, fringe parties never hold the mainstream hostage when it's time to form a government or elect a PM.

    13. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by senatorpjt · · Score: 1

      40 million dollars for the perverted arts.

    14. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In West Virginia, as retarded, broken and corrupt as our political system may be, we have one good rule: an amendment must be "germane to the bill," meaning related to the subject it addresses. This is of course subject to the judgment of the Speaker of the House or President of the Senate, so it's not rock-solid, but it cuts down on the ridiculous crap you mention.

    15. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Zebai · · Score: 1

      It is apparently ncessary that we push another amendment then. The only way to bypass our bribed judges is to actually change the constitution itself.

      Unfortunetly I don't see this happening unless some bill that effects republican fund raising gets attached to a rider that they need line item veto in order to kill it.

    16. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Firehed · · Score: 1

      I just wish that was obvious. Nobody seems to realize that a line-veto would fix half the problems of the country, but all of the asshole politicians don't want it specifically so they can keep pushing their agendas in the way you noted. Don't get me wrong, not *all* politicians are assholes - come to mention it, you really only hear about the ones that aren't - like this guy - because they did something that was actually for the good of the people, even if it meant voting against something that should otherwise be passed (or, shouldn't have, but was completely irrelavent anyways, and voted it down on that principle alone).

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    17. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which is better, a meaningless piece of paper everyone ignores, or no piece of paper?

      Try quantifying your freedom in terms of your actual practical freedom, rather than by the number of worthless documents you've produced.

    18. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by alexo · · Score: 1

      We desperately need to have proportional representation. Like, you know, every free nation on Earth.

      I knew it, Canada is not "free".

    19. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >But the powers that be are too entrenched in the two party system.

      Solve it by never voting for an incumbent, ever. Send the bastards home.

    20. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by RexRhino · · Score: 2, Funny

      I would support a single subject law, but only if they tacked on the space funding legislation I want.

    21. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      In some parliamentary systems, there is a motion to split a measure. By some vote (often a simple majority) the bill can be split into two bills. It's less a matter of law as of parliamentary procedure. Neither the US House nor Senate Rules of Order permit the motion to sever.

      They do have a complex array of amendment procedures which could, in theory, be used for similar purposes. But the Congressional Rules of Order make floor votes to amend difficult. The work is supposed to be done in committees, and the committees present whole bills to be voted up or down.

      That's how a single senator (in this case Warner of Virginia) can stomp the bill: the chair of the committee said no, and he gets to decide what amendments are considered.

      It gets even more complicated from there. Once the House and Senate pass separate bills, there's yet another comittee that gets to merge the two bills and present the unified bill for an up-or-down vote to both houses. Getting on that committee is pure gold: you can basically chuck in anything you like, and if the bill is important (like, say, the defense budget) they basically have to pass it.

      They don't have a motion to split because that's how deals are made. Compromises succeed or fail as a whole, and it wouldn't be a compromise if you could renege on part of it later. Work in Congress would grind to a halt. Whether that's good or bad I leave up to you.

    22. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 4, Informative

      Line-item was passed during the Clinton Administration. Some Congressmen objected, and SCOTUS eventually ruled that it was unconstitutional.

      Much as I may like the concept of a line-item veto, as the Constitution currently stands, the SCOTUS ruling was correct IMHO (disclaimer - IANAL).

      --
      Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    23. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by youguessedit · · Score: 1
      Proportional representation isn't always a great thing. I know it's hard to believe with our current situation, but a winner-takes-all election system leads to more moderate parties.

      The incentive structure is set up so that the two parties are rewarded for having more centralist positions, because that lets them pick up modest, independent voters. The people in their party that are farther left or right of center, depending on the party, will still have to vote for them, because they don't really have another choice.

      If you have a proportional representation system, it's much easier for extreme groups to develop and thrive -- remember, the National Front got nearly 20% of the vote in France and their leader made it into the second round of the election. And they're like freaken Nazis.

      Digression: Obviously the party can't pull too far to the center, or new groups will start to form on their rear. That's one reason why the Dems have had trouble the last few elections. The Greens keep them for moving closer to the center. The Repubs, at least for now, don't have this problem.

    24. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      If you have a proportional representation system, it's much easier for extreme groups to develop and thrive -- remember, the National Front got nearly 20% of the vote in France and their leader made it into the second round of the election. And they're like freaken Nazis.

      The voting for the NF was a clear sign by the french public that they had had it with the state of affairs. That is how voters represent themselves, remember? By voting. The fact that 20% of a country got up and basically gave the government the finger by saying "look mate, even this total freak is more competent than you are" is admirable in itself. Ofcourse Chirac easily won the second round and nothing effectively changed.

      Now try to imagine 20% of the american public getting up, giving the government the finger and voting "fringe party x". Unlikely that would ever happen though, americans being as indoctrinated as they are.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    25. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Imsdal · · Score: 1

      Just out of curiosity, why was it considered unconstitutional?

    26. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Line item veto is too dangerous, those lines could be security precautions against misuse or statements limiting the scope of the bill, etc. Line 1: The POTUS can have any person detained indefinitely, Line 2: Doing so requires approval by a judge and the following conditions: [items a-e]. Congress passes the bill since it only applies to terrorists, the POTUS vetoes all but Line 1 and everything goes down the shitter. Granted, that's an extreme example but still.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    27. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The POTUS could easily say he'll veto any bill that goes off-topic, no matter what it's about.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    28. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't come to me with the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. They're just a god-damn piece of paper!!

        -- Tha Prez

    29. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Dirk+van+der+Broek · · Score: 1

      No need to imagine it ... Ross Perot fits your description of a protest vote in the US. In the 1992 presidential election, he took about 20% of the popular votes.

    30. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by youguessedit · · Score: 1
      Very good point, and I'm in no way saying that people shouldn't be able to vote for these fringe parties. I'm just trying to say that the fringe parties have more influence in a proportional representation system -- i.e. a first-past-the-post system will tend to result in more moderate gov't (tend is the key word).

      Regarding the US voters giving the gov't the finger, I think the votes for the Green party were a bit of 'fuck you' to the system. They're pretty fringe, and it had an effect on the outcome of the election.

      And the two major parties in the US are not fixed. About every 80 years or so there is a shake-up of the status quo. One or both of the parties will break apart and new ones will form in their place. It has not always been the Dems and Repubs, and it won't always be them in the future. I could see a break-away of financial-conservatives (of the Schwarzenegger type) from the social-conservatives, with the financially conservative, socially liberal group picking up part of the centrist Democrats. At least, I hope so, because I'd like to join a party like that ;-)

    31. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by hauntingthunder · · Score: 1
      That aspect of the US system is very strange.

      In normal debate (aka citrine) trying to ammend a motion with totaly unrelated stuff would not be allowed on the order paper.

      Sounds like you need a new article to the constitution to stop this.

      --
      You will never get to heaven with an Ak 47... But A Zu 30 is good for Low Flying Cherubim
    32. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Znork · · Score: 1

      "a winner-takes-all election system leads to more moderate parties."

      No it doesnt. That particular assumption is based on a one-dimensional view of politics, where only a single issue is of overriding importance. WTA systems lead to moderate positioning on one or a few major issues, like economic policy, but after that they can easily cater to extremists on secondary issues. For example, where a WTA system offers tax cuts and anti-abortion vs education spending and pro-abortion, a proportional system would offer several more parties, covering various axis like tax cuts _and_ pro-abortion, creating a situation where each issue would have a much more accurate representation in the legislative branch.

      Not to even mention that more people vote when they have a choice they actually find acceptable, without having to swallow a bunch of views they abhor.

      "the National Front got nearly 20% of the vote in France"

      Ironically, in the US, where the current majority party has the voted support of less than 20% of the actual eligible voters, that level of support is enough to put them in charge. While in a PR system, that would leave a majority of 80% solidly against the NF.

      And, of course, the French presidential election is really a completely irrelevant example, as that also is a winner-takes-all position, altho it is two-round runoff election.

      "The Greens keep them for moving closer to the center."

      More to the green center? More to the family values center? More to the what center? The greens are primarily on a completely different axis, and in a PR system would tend towards the center in non-environmental issues, while _both_ other parties would tend towards dealing with environmental issues in internally consistent ways, to keep voters from defection, leading to much more multi-axis voter centralized politics.

      Two party systems are good for one thing; offering easy management for antidemocratic interests. Much easier to influence and buy politicians if there are fewer to pay, and you dont have to worry about your pets getting kicked out by a third party in the next election. So take a good hard look at those sources espousing the wonders of two party systems, and ask what they might have to lose if politicians serve the voters instead.

    33. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by (trb001) · · Score: 1

      Here's a synopsis of the case on Wikipedia, Clinton v. City of New York. To sum up, the court found "it violated the Presentment clause of the Constitution, which outlines a specific practice for enacting a statute."

      In general, the line item veto is unconstitutional because there's a set method for enacting laws. IMO, this violates the separation of powers laid out in the Constitution, but the justices disagree with me so I'm wrong :)

      --trb

    34. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by 14CharUsername · · Score: 1

      Didn't Clinton do this? I remember that they shut down the government for a while there over some disagreement between newt gingrich and clinton. Ultimately Clinton won that one, but it could have gone the other way. I think a lot of times the president will decide it isn't worth risking losing such a battle if its just going to prevent a small inconsequential piece of legislation.

    35. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1

      That old line-item veto didn't really make sense. One could imagine the two parties negotiating to some compromise in which each party get's something they like, then it gets sent to the White House and the President only keeps the part he likes. It's the same problem with the "signing statements" of recent presidents--it makes no sense that the President can both make changes to a bill and sign it into law before Congress gets a chance to evaluate his changes. It would be just as bad as if Congress could amend the bill after the President signed it.

      In the past year or so I've heard talk of a new "line-item veto" that would submit the new altered bill back to Congress to vote yay-or-nay on without additional amendments--that seems to me like a good idea, as long as the Senate filabuster rules apply the same way to that process as to the original bill.

    36. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by oc255 · · Score: 1

      I know this is going to sound sophmoric and uninformed ... but ... I hate this attaching gambling legislation into the defense bill stuff. I'm sure it happens a lot, it's just grinds logic. Oil and water.

      "Rumsfeld. You can have your $70B for Iraq but you're going to have to roll a 7 or an 11."

    37. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      I hate it with a passion. It's intolerably childish that a single individual has the power to tack on a highly specific, irrelevant amendment that the whole of Congress is powerless to remove.

      I'm serious that I've considered running for Congress on a platform of reforming the rules to decrease that. (They'd find a way around whatever new rules I proposed, but we'd at least have a few years of relative sanity). I was quite bugged to discover that my senator was retiring this year, because I'm not ready to run yet, and six years from now when I am ready it'll be hard to beat an incumbent.

    38. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 1

      Sounds good to me. Anything that slows down politicians has to be a good thing - the less the do the better off we all are.

    39. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Politburo · · Score: 1

      Technically, the Congress couldn't sue. It was the City of New York that sued because a budget item that would have benefitted them was line-item vetoed. The case is Clinton v. City of New York.

    40. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Politburo · · Score: 1

      This already exists. It's called the House Germaneness Rule and it basically says that amendments must be related to the bill. However, the chair gets to rule on what is germane, so this can be abused by the majority party. It also only applies in the House. The Senate has a germaneness rule that only applies to budget bills.

      Anytime we have one of these threads, people come out of the woodwork with crazy proposals to modify Congress, etc. The solution is simple: elect representatives who won't play by the old rules. That's all it takes. No additional rules are needed, just Congressional discipline.

    41. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confused. Your sarcasm indicates that you think it is a BAD thing to protect minority rights.

    42. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I'd much prefer a word-count law. At the very least, a single person should have the time to read and understand a year's worth of legislation in a year's time.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    43. Re:What is it with tacking things onto bills? by The+Conductor · · Score: 1
      I think you are right on all those points, but I think it is easier for people to understand when described thusly: First-past-the-post forces coalition-building out of the legislature and into the two major parties. Successful canidiates in FPTP must already have a coalition behind them to get a full majority in whatever district they represent. American primary elections often have the multipolar flavor found in elections for European proportional legislatures. You get the such-and-such "caucus" or the whatchmacallit "council", groups organized to get certain kinds of candidates nominated, playing the ideologically pure roles found in European-style political parties.


      And the GP is ignoring the UK (merely the birthplace of modern democracy), whose elections are FPTP.

      As for my own view, I think that proportional representation is fine on a smaller scale, but it seems to me that, because candidates are insulated from the voters (who vote for parties), as the size of the nations (and the parties) scales up, corrupt (or ideologically extreme) individuals can entrench themselves into the party machinery and get away with much more mischief. FPTP scales better. The US is, after all, much larger than Germany.

  3. walking the line by User+956 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For the moment, the rush to legislate the ban on online gambling has been slowed. Senator John Warner, (R) from Virginia, has refused to allow the banning of online gambling to be tacked on to an upcoming defense bill.

    What I don't "get" is that if they do eventually ban online gambling, what is the legal status of games like Second Life, which allow gambling in-world (in Linden Dollars, which you can then convert to US Dollars)? How will it even be possible to police that sort of thing given the open-ended nature of the game?

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:walking the line by Unknown_monkey · · Score: 1

      Thank you for pointing this hole out to them. Now they'll ban even the random rolls in online games because people use those random rolls for gambling too.

    2. Re:walking the line by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

      they will just use the other legal law to get rid of that while not say it gambling. aka tax laws, Marc Bragg lawsuit and other things that are not under gambling laws.

    3. Re:walking the line by Secrity · · Score: 1

      I am not sure that it would be actively policed as a violation of gambling laws. If it ever showed up on politicians' radar, they could make it illegal to convert virtual currency, such as Linden Dollars, into real money. I'm not saying that such laws would be effective ....

    4. Re:walking the line by 8ball629 · · Score: 1

      You can't honestly believe that politicians read /. can you? They're too stupid and plus, the internet is bad. Mmmmmkay?

    5. Re:walking the line by bcat24 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I doubt many of "them" could even get to Slashdot anyway. The tubes are pretty clogged-up these days, you know.

    6. Re:walking the line by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If it ever showed up on politicians' radar, they could make it illegal to convert virtual currency, such as Linden Dollars, into real money. I'm not saying that such laws would be effective ....

      That kind of law was passed many years ago (CA state ior federal -- I don't know). It had to do with you couldn't rack up free games on a pinball machine, then have the machine owner pay you off per game and clear them from the machine.

    7. Re:walking the line by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Gambling is not limited to completely random games. While random games are more profitable for casinos since it's easier to control the win-loss ratios any game that can result in a monetary win is gambling. Second Life is a game that allows players to invest money and possibly come away with a profit, that alone makes it gambling, not the mechanics involved in the game. Their only hope is to dodge the definition of a game and instead get counted as a form of network that offers various services. In that case they could limit the gambling definition to any "service" (if I understand it right that would be a region operated by a user) that resembles a game and allows the player (not to be confused with the operator) to leave with more money than he entered with.

      I think LL would need to apply for common carrier status if they don't want to be liable whenever a user sets up a gambling den, though.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    8. Re:walking the line by asylumx · · Score: 1

      For that matter, what about the open-ended nature of the Internet?

    9. Re:walking the line by Secrity · · Score: 1

      There is a history of pinball gambling laws at http://members.aol.com/rusjensen/gambling.htm

  4. Man, I just won $240 today by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I play poker, but I'm not using my own money. I bankrolled money from a freeroll. Now I am freerolling my way up the stakes ladder. If they ban online gambling, I'll have to get a Swiss Bank account or something.

    1. Re:Man, I just won $240 today by isometrick · · Score: 1

      Why?

      http://www.geocities.com/James_Sager_PA/love8.html
      (your website, for those who didn't check)

      To store up all of the money you intend to give to the poor?

  5. This isn't about competition. . it's about control by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

    . . .because someone, somewhere might just be enjoying themselves, and certain portions of the population don't happen to approve of that kind of fun. . .

  6. Gotta love by djuuss · · Score: 1, Insightful

    .. democracy.

    Can't get a law to pass? Attach it to one that will!

    To be fair, it is indeed a last resort. This bill can't be passed because of casino owners lobbying against it, so the fact that it doesn't pass also has little to do with democracy.
    I feel this is just another example of why the US needs to take a good hard look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy and compare it to the system theyre currently using.

    Then again, /. democracy means this post will get slapped with -1 flamebait. Yay to free speach!

    --

    my capcha was condom
    1. Re:Gotta love by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Casino owners in the US are lobbying *for* the bill- they think fewer online players=more offline players. In a real democracy a law like this wouldn't pass- the vast majority of people don't care about online gambling, and a hell of a lot of people do it.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:Gotta love by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

      no they want to have there name on the web sites as good us casion web site = more players that are willing spend money on it.

    3. Re:Gotta love by djuuss · · Score: 1

      Did I say speach?

      Free as in peaches. Yay to preview button!

      --

      my capcha was condom
    4. Re:Gotta love by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1
      He refused to cave to the Bush administration on torture.

      Except in the end, he did.

      The "anti-torture" bill that was passed still does away with protections of habius corpus and Geneva at the discretion of the President. Plus it still retroactively gives immunity to the folks who might have tortured and (more importantly) the folks who ordered the torture be done. About the only thing it does is to make sure Congress knows about it, too. Real moral "high ground" there. Too bad it's going to get a lot more of our service members tortured after capture in retribution and give the terrorist networks even more recruiting fodder.

      --
      That is all.
    5. Re:Gotta love by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Oh, no doubt that a US casino online would make good money. Hell, I'd use it. But its *already* illegal to run a casino online. This bill would make it illegal to *gamble* online. Casinos want this, to force players into normal casinos.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    6. Re:Gotta love by Best+ID+Ever! · · Score: 1

      1. The bill doesn't make it illegal to gamble online. It makes it illegal for credit card companies and banks to allow offshore gambling transactions.

      2. The American Gaming Association is opposed to the legislation. Online gaming, especially online poker, is driving people to the casinos in record numbers.

  7. Re:This isn't about competition. . it's about cont by Denyer · · Score: 1

    Many do, they just want it to take place somewhere they can take their cut.

    --
    Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
  8. Better idea.... by i_want_you_to_throw_ · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Stop attaching TOTALLY unrelated shitty riders to bills. How about that?

    Let's attach this here rider that rewards one of my biggest constituents to a bill that .. oh I don't know.... gives more financial assistance to the families of firemen and policement killed in 9/11. There's a special place in hell for congressmen who pull that.

    No doubt that the U.S. ** IS ** the greatest democracy ever, but it has some serious shortcomings in this area. (And yes, regardless of our horrible directions we've taken these last six years, American government DOES correct itself.. eventually).

    1. Re:Better idea.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yes, regardless of our horrible directions we've taken these last six years, American government DOES correct itself.. eventually

      Oh? That's odd, I remember when the Clinton adminitstration was busy with a democrat-based congress adding guns and ammunition bans as riders to funding to the disabled vets... were you bitching on that day? Or does the second amendment not count as a "real" right in your mind?

    2. Re:Better idea.... by Xiroth · · Score: 1

      That's wierd. I've always thought of the US system as a terrible example for emerging democracies - with a president whose powers were modelled on a monarch, a electoral system which has been proven to be mathematically almost the worst possible, and a political system whose flaws are continually patched over rather than properly fixed, the American system is certainly beginning to show its age. This is a side-effect of it being one of the oldest democracies on the globe, and it's only because they had the American mistakes to learn from that other countries produced a better system, but I would certainly not say that the US has the greatest democractic system in the modern world.

    3. Re:Better idea.... by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      >No doubt that the U.S. ** IS ** the greatest democracy ever, but it has some serious shortcomings
      Translation: I only really know about the way we do it and I'm comfy with that. The news talks about ones that went bad so I'm guessing they're all bad and we're therefor the best.
      Reality: Many countries have better versions of democracy and involve the people in far more decision making.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    4. Re:Better idea.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Stop attaching TOTALLY unrelated shitty riders to bills. How about that?

      Remember that politicians are paid to find ways around laws on behalf of major constituents. Many years ago, when planes out of SFO were getting louder by the year, a number of people on the San Francisco peninsula used the tactic of filing individual noise complaints in small claims court at the rate of about $500 a pop. The airport operator, the city of San Francisco, went apeshit. The state legislature's speaker of the house, Willie Brown, who represented San Francisco, went to work on the problem.

      Apparently there was a law against making laws to help a single beneficiary. So Willie had conditions at all the state airports researched and crafted a law that was so narrow that it applied to only TWO airports in the state -- SFO and some hinky-ass little airport in Siskiyou county, jammed up against the Oregon border. The law exempted the two qualifying airports from small claims court noise suits. I don't know if the operators of the Siskiyou airport were even notified of the law.

  9. Before someone else posts it... by Footix · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...I'll lay you 2-to-1 odds it doesn't pass.

    --
    Footix - President, Society For Putting Things On Top Of Other Things
    1. Re:Before someone else posts it... by Xiroth · · Score: 1

      Well, I'll offer 100-to-1 odds that it passes.

      Of course, I run a legal establishment here - if the law changes, I will of course obey it and will no longer be able to honor any wagers laid.

    2. Re:Before someone else posts it... by EVil+Lawyer · · Score: 1

      You jest, but one can in fact bet, on-line, on whether this legislation will pass. See Intrade.

  10. Re:This isn't about competition. . it's about cont by QuantumG · · Score: 1

    If that were the case they'd be introducing new tax laws. No, this is a "my mother lost a fortune betting online, it must be banned!" reaction.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
  11. The US is not a Democracy by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

    The United States is not and was never intended to be a democracy. It is a Republic, which is quite diffrend from a Democracy. http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/repvs dem.htm http://www.ahherald.com/bishop/020228_democracy.ht m

    1. Re:The US is not a Democracy by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Part of the problem some of us have with the idea of 'A Democracy' is that government should not be far reaching. Basically, government should be limited in scope, and a lot of society and social constructs should be untouched by government. Making a country a 'Democracy' implies that people vote on all sorts of issues about everything. In particular, they vote on issues that some of us feel goverment should not intrude.

      There are a class of people who are really into government. Let's call them politicians. Some are 'left' and some are 'right.' They want government meddling in all kinds of areas where it's unnecessary for goverment to be. The notion of 'Democracy' as decried by some of these people implies that we should all do a lot more voting on a lot more topics. Which is the opposite of a 'mind your own business' philosophy.

      Did you know that one of the first coins minted by the new US Goverment in the late eighteenth century has the legend 'Mind Your Business' printed right on it?

    2. Re:The US is not a Democracy by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      The US is a liberal democracy. It's also a federal republic. Read up on it and get over it.

    3. Re:The US is not a Democracy by O'Laochdha · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's a democratic republic. A republic is just a government that acknowledges the humanity of its subjects - The Republic was philosophocratic. There were no elections there. In the US, and most other modern "republics," the leaders are elected by no one in particular, so it is a democratic republic.

    4. Re:The US is not a Democracy by dbcad7 · · Score: 1

      What are you, some kind of REPUBLICan ?

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
    5. Re:The US is not a Democracy by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      In a democratic republic, the people vote directly for a 'leader', one person one vote. In the United States they do not. They vote for an unknown faceless group of people, The Electorial College, who then vote for the leader. The Electorial College, was implimented by the founding fathers because they felt the public was not educated enough, not of the right class really, to be trusted to vote for the best leader. Recent Electoral College choices it seems have proven them wrong.

    6. Re:The US is not a Democracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Electoral College is there to prevent regionalization of votes. Without the Electoral College, candidates could only campaign in large cities and populous states to gain a majority of the votes. People in less dense populations would, in a sense, have no representation. California, Texas and New York would be able to elect the President and the rest of the states would not be able to do anything about it.

    7. Re:The US is not a Democracy by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      So in the United States there are various 'classes' of votes depending on the population density of the state where they are cast. So if that is the case then the US should stop the telling the rest o the world that they are a truly democratic society with one vote per person and each person being equal, at least until they vote.

    8. Re:The US is not a Democracy by O'Laochdha · · Score: 1

      The President is not a leader, he is only president. The country is mostly run by the various legislatures, who ultimately answer to the President. For this reason, the state legislatures, whose members are elected democratically, are given the authority to choose him - all fifty currently hold referenda, but there is no federal law mandating that they do so. The federal Congress is filled democratically. The federal Senate is now filled democratically, and was once filled by the Congress. However, the ultimate decision, besides a few minor things like minimum age, comes down to no other factor than the will of and promises to the people. De jure, there is no aristocracy, lottery, nor contest of merit; everything feeds back to a public election. That makes it democratic, albeit not a direct democracy.

    9. Re:The US is not a Democracy by O'Laochdha · · Score: 1

      The US is a federation. Each state is a truly democratic society with one person, one vote, but the country was founded on the idea that the states would not be the same, and must be treated as separate. They are not simple provinces or administrative divisions, but literal states. This conception has been abandoned to some degree since the civil war, but the fact remains that there are at times very marked differences. (Margaret Marshall is currently thinking up new ways to ensure this.)

      The Presidential election is a little screwed up, but that's not the most important election. You don't really lose say if you're in a large state (because the population reaping the benefits is so small), but if you're in a very small state, your vote is effectively tripled, because that state can't be neglected. As long as you live in one of the fifty states, though, it's not an enormous difference. The dependencies get screwed, but it's not like they're gated off - Puerto Rico, the largest overseas dependency, has been offered statehood several times and rejected it, so apparently, it's not that bad.

    10. Re:The US is not a Democracy by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      "The President is not a leader, he is only president. The country is mostly run by the various legislatures, who ultimately answer to the President."

      You are mistaken. The President answers to the legislature and ultimately, to the States.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    11. Re:The US is not a Democracy by fingusernames · · Score: 4, Informative

      More pointedly, and something largely forgotten today, the United States is a federation of SOVEREIGN states -- the federal government is a creation of the people acting through their states. Americans vote for federal representatives as citizens of states first and foremost: Congress by districts that are contained within states, the shape of which decided by state legislatures (though sometimes vetted by federal courts), and the President via electors that represent a state's voters. The elections, while authorized by the federal constitution, are governed by state legislatures. (Note: that is an important legal distinction given Bush v. Gore. The Supremes ruled, correctly IMO, that as federal elections are authorized by the federal constitution, conferring power directly to state legislatures, original review must be via federal courts, not state.)

      These states agreed to vest particular portions of sovereignty in the federal government through a written agreement: the United States Constitution. One interesting facet of the federal constitution that many don't reflect upon is the amendment process: STATES have the final word on the shape of the federal constitution. Not Congress.

      While the people at large have basically forgotten these facts, and the Congress and President run rampant over them, the courts do from time to time surprise people and enforce the consequences of our nature of government, much to the dismay of those who would have us forget that the federal government is not THE Government.

      Larry

    12. Re:The US is not a Democracy by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Making a country a 'Democracy' implies that people vote on all sorts of issues about everything. In particular, they vote on issues that some of us feel goverment should not intrude.

      No, it does not. Democracy is available in several flavours, one of which is the representative democracy where people vote together a govenment and that's it.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    13. Re:The US is not a Democracy by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      As opposed to the current setup where Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, and a handful of others decide the president?

      Same problem, different states. The solution obviously isn't.

    14. Re:The US is not a Democracy by 14CharUsername · · Score: 1

      I think you forgot about a little something called the US Civil War. You see a bunch of states decided that they wanted no part in the United States anymore and wanted to form their own confederacy. If "STATES have the final word on the shape of the federal constitution" then that should have been the end of the story right there, right?

      Realpolitick trumps states rights, the supreme court, congress, the constitution, and any other governmental apparatus you can come up with. The federal government has the biggest guns, so what they say goes. They might be magnamonious and allow the supreme court to make some decisions and the states to run some of their own affairs. But if states get too uppity the federal government can and has done everything from taking away highway funding to full out civil war.

      How things look on paper is often very different to how things really work.

    15. Re:The US is not a Democracy by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      If that were truly the case then each state could deside whether to send troops to fight in the same manner as the memeber stats of say NATO or the EU do. So people who reside within the United States are not all equal because the United Stats is not a unified country mearly a collection of independent states who ceed some powers to a central authority.

    16. Re:The US is not a Democracy by Politburo · · Score: 1

      One interesting facet of the federal constitution that many don't reflect upon is the amendment process: STATES have the final word on the shape of the federal constitution. Not Congress.

      Is that so? Check out this site about how the Congress has ignored petitions under Article V of the Constitution to call a convention. SCOTUS will decide in the next few months whether or not they will hear the case. My guess is that they're going to punt it on technical reasons to avoid addressing the real issue.

  12. What part of freedom don't they understand by netbuzz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are more important issues out there, but few frost my behind as much as this one: I mean the opponents of online gambling are almost invariably the same blowhards who wrap themselves around the flag and lecture the rest of the world about what it means to be free. If we cannot decide for ourselves how to dispose of our disposable income, then in no way, shape or form can we be described as free. All forms of gambling should be legal, regulated and taxed. Use a slice of the tax revenue to help problem gamblers. Leave the rest of us alone.

    1. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we cannot decide for ourselves how to dispose of our disposable income, then in no way, shape or form can we be described as free.

      And as long as limp wrists keep fattening up the poor on my dime then in no way shape or from can my income be described as mine.

      I don't have any problem with others wanting to gamble put if they put themselves onto the street with their habit I don't want my money going to keeping them alive. They can work or die for all I care.

    2. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by jackbird · · Score: 1
      They can work or die for all I care.

      Or nail you to the wall when the revolution comes.

    3. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by smaddox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, I believe the proponnents of this bill are "offline" casinos and horse racing tracks. I seriously doubt the true supporters of this bill support it for moral reasons. It is most definately a financial reason.

      If it was for moral reasons, why would they target online gambling as apposed to - say - all gambling? (It could be a secondary goal I suppose, but still unlikely IMHO).

    4. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by zerocool^ · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Furthermore, it shows a complete ineptitude as to how the internets work.

      "Hey there, Du-Rail. I got's me an IDEAR. Let's ban them online Casinos."

      "Sounds good, Tex! Them's dens of heathens anyway."

      Gentlemen, your internet tubes also connect to places like... Belarus and Sao Paulo. These places give less than a shit about horse porn - what makes you think they'd care about online gambling?

      *sigh*

      --
      sig?
    5. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh-- an appeal to force. How despotic of you.

    6. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Gentlemen, your internet tubes also connect to places like... Belarus and Sao Paulo. These places give less than a shit about horse porn - what makes you think they'd care about online gambling?

      They don't have to. It's the transactions on your VISA card to and from those locations that will get you, and possible VISA itself as well, into trouble.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    7. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      He is right, humans aren't the dominant species because they just lay down and die when their survival is threatened, they do whatever it takes to stay alive. That usually means begging or crime these days. Never mind that dead bodies on the street aren't conductive to the public health.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    8. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Or nail you to the wall when the revolution comes.

      It's only 2 months away, but it's called the Wii now.

    9. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by jackbird · · Score: 1

      No, an appeal to the phenomenon that societies seem to function better with fewer angry hopeless starving masses.

    10. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by elrous0 · · Score: 0
      Yeah, it's good that they gave us a little more time to enjoy our freedom.

      Just a little more time, that's all I need. All I need is a good run and I'll be back in business...then I can put the money back in the company account and everything will be find. Just one good run and Jill will never find out, she'll never have to know. All I need is a few lucky breaks...just a few good hands and everything will be fine. Come on dealer...you know I'm due. Just gotta get ahead then I'll stop this time...this time I'll stop.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    11. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by ChiChiCuervo · · Score: 1

      No.

      Here in Nevada the casinos were going nuts about this bill. They want to get into online gambling, or at least remove the layers between themselves and the offshore online gambling sites they secretly own. Also horse tracks desperately want the right to expand their books online and appeal to a global audience.

    12. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by BarkLouder · · Score: 0
      If we cannot decide for ourselves how to dispose of our disposable income, then in no way, shape or form can we be described as free. All forms of gambling should be legal, regulated and taxed.

      Boy, are we schizophrenic. First we should be free, then we need to be regulated and taxed. Make up your damn mind.

      Personally, I prefer freedom.

    13. Re:What part of freedom don't they understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      ... then in no way, shape or form ....

      Can you explain EXACTLY what each of those three words add to the sense of your sentence? Or are you just pumping your dick and spewing lawyer words to make yourself seem important?

  13. How do we stop this? by rts008 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How do we stop this insane practise of piling one bill on top of another as it passes through the gauntlet?
    This practise has probably more to do with the sad state we are in than any other- this even bypasses/surpasses pork barrel crap shuffled through.

    Let the original bill stand (or fall) on it's own- quit this backscratchin',feel good,get re-elected bullshit end. If not, we fial and stay where we are.

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    1. Re:How do we stop this? by Peyna · · Score: 1

      Easy. Pass a law/constitutional amendment which states that all amendments to a bill must be germane to that bill.

      --
      What?
  14. Re:This isn't about competition. . it's about cont by Denyer · · Score: 1

    How much would you want to bet (pun intended) that a move to limit online gambling isn't sponsored by brick-and-mortar casinos?

    --
    Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
  15. Bravo John Warner by Aeron65432 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Honestly, the more and more I watch this man's moves, the more impressed I am.


    He refused to cave to the Bush administration on torture.


    Now, as chairman of the Armed Services Committee, he refuses to let a trivial non-issue be tacked on along with a government spending bill. Bravo, if only more people like him could be elected to the Senate.

    1. Re:Bravo John Warner by sideswipe76 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      WOAH! Hold on now, he rebufed the bill not because he doesn't feel the idea is right, just that it has no bussiness in a defense appropriations bill. And, it's gonna take more than a last minute show of independence to convince me he is worthy of his seat. Let's not kid ourselves -- he and the other 2 "independents" buckled after only a week; Hardly a show of iron will.

    2. Re:Bravo John Warner by glesga_kiss · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Hold on now, he rebufed the bill not because he doesn't feel the idea is right, just that it has no bussiness in a defense appropriations bill.

      Exactly. That's why he's probably one of the best guys in there. Most of the others would be happy to turn a blind eye to riders provided it was for something they want. The whole "relative morality" debate. If what you say above is true, then we need more folk like him, regardless of their personal viewpoints.

    3. Re:Bravo John Warner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Warner (and McCain and Graham) did cave to Bush on torture. Their so-called compromise was in fact capitulation after apparently merely putting up a show. The bill specifically does not ban, for example, waterboarding.

    4. Re:Bravo John Warner by Kanasta · · Score: 1

      actually, I was more surprised that senators had the power to refuse things to be tacked on to other bills. Because so many unrelated bills had been tacked on to surefire bills in the past, I had always assumed the people involved had no choice

  16. You gotta remember by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    i wish they would give up or just legalize it. online gambling really isn't a problem, just like online sales of goods isn't a problem to walmart or best buy.

    Several states have deals where they get a cut of Indian Casinos and the other privately run casinos. Even Las Vegas is feeling the pinch from the competition of the spread of brick and mortar (albeit well lit bricks and glittery mortar) casinos throughout the USA and thus great giveaways aren't what they used to be as Vegas repositions itself as a destination for the family (what a sordid thought that is, but they really are!) along with conventions.

    If I could be anywhere in the world and bet on 888.com or any other site, who gets a cut? There's multiple special interests at work and the online community isn't quite as strongly represented, to say nothing of the people's own personal wishes. I dare Washington to make it a Fall referendum.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:You gotta remember by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Even Las Vegas is feeling the pinch from the competition of the spread of brick and mortar (albeit well lit bricks and glittery mortar) casinos throughout the USA and thus great giveaways aren't what they used to be as Vegas repositions itself as a destination for the family (what a sordid thought that is, but they really are!) along with conventions.

      If that's the idea, they SERIOUSLY need to fire their PR firm.

  17. I am a Virginia Voter by RGautier · · Score: 1

    and I approve this message......... Go Warner! Let's stop playing politics and start linking votes on bills to what's actually in the bills!

  18. SECESSION by genrader · · Score: 0

    We should secede and have the best form of government ever: wait, there is no good form of government, oops. LIBERTARIANISM FOR LIFE

  19. World Trade Organization by mulhollandj · · Score: 1

    We cannot ban it according to the World Trade Organization. It seems that the US congress have given away some of their sovereignty.

    1. Re:World Trade Organization by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      That is the definition of cooperation. you give a little, I give a little. Of course the US is quite with in its rights to build a wall around itself and remove itself from the world comunity. Just don't come crying to us when your economy fails because no one will trade with you.

    2. Re:World Trade Organization by rkcallaghan · · Score: 1
      mulhollandj wrote:
      We cannot ban it according to the World Trade Organization.
      Does anyone have a source for this? Of course, even if it is true, our current government hasn't shown much concern about international relations, so it might be a non-issue.

      ~Rebecca
    3. Re:World Trade Organization by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Yeah, in other words, the WTO is a bit like a marriage. :-)

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    4. Re:World Trade Organization by gzunk · · Score: 1

      And that is one of the reasons why the US is disliked around the world - the blatent hypocrisy. I.e. ignoring WTO rules when it suits them, but at the same time using the WTO as a stick to beat trading partners with.

    5. Re:World Trade Organization by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      Sort of, except the idea in a marrage is to get f%^$#d.

  20. match made in heaven by lorg · · Score: 0

    Looks to me like the two where made for eachother, after all alot of these new defence systems like the missile shield appear to give the same crappy odds of success as some games of chanse. Not to mention that there really is only one winner in each scenario (casionos and the military industrial complex) and a whole bunch of loosers paying thru the noose for it.

  21. Re:This isn't about competition. . it's about cont by Frogbert · · Score: 1

    Reminds me of a quote I found quite funny.

    A Puritan is someone who is deathly afraid that someone, somewhere, is having fun.

  22. Re:This isn't about competition. . it's about cont by retzkek · · Score: 1
    No question about it. Take the Washington state online gambling ban passed a couple months ago. The sponsor of that bill, state Senator Margarita Prentice, had her hands in all kinds of casino pots:
    Last November, a full three years before her expected re-election bid, Prentice received $2,700 from David Barnett and his wife, Christine. Barnett is tribal chair of the Cowlitz tribe, an Indian nation that is slated to construct a new casino in La Center, which would easily cater to the casino-free Portland market. Prentice also got another $1,175 from the Washington Indian Gaming Commission, a lobbying group, and two lobbyists who represent Indian interests. Combined, the two sets of contributions are about 20 percent of the $22,000 she has raised so far for her 2008 race. Within four months of Prentice receiving those contributions, her online gambling ban bill raced through both houses of the Legislature with little opposition and no press attention. In 2004, Prentice got almost $9,000 from gambling interests.
  23. Re:This isn't about competition. . it's about cont by truthsearch · · Score: 1

    Initially I thought the same thing. But it turns out attendance at live poker in casinos as at an all time high. Plus a lot more people are entering live tournaments after they get into gambling online. The big online gamblings sites let you win entry to live tournaments and often have meetups at casinos. I think casinos already see the benefit to their bottom line.

  24. Think of the tubes! by ickeicke · · Score: 1

    Of course all forms of online gambling should be banned! Things like poker chips block the tubes that make up the internets. Only lotteries and horse races gambling should be allowed, to ensure that the tubes are flushed clean regularly. Otherwise, how long do you think the gerbils on wheels that power the internet are going to run? Not long!

    --
    Firehed - Unfortunately, thanks to medical breakthroughs, common sense is not as common as it once was.
    1. Re:Think of the tubes! by Jetson · · Score: 1
      Of course all forms of online gambling should be banned! Things like poker chips block the tubes that make up the internets. Only lotteries and horse races gambling should be allowed, to ensure that the tubes are flushed clean regularly. Otherwise, how long do you think the gerbils on wheels that power the internet are going to run? Not long!

      I think you're mixing your metaphors. The gerbils on wheels are what powers the trucks, and thanks to Stephens we now know that the internets are not a bunch of trucks!

  25. In Soviet Russia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Soviet Russia, YOU save Jesus!

  26. Judging by the replies here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe I should set up my own Online Casino, there sure isn't a lack of suckers that would waste their cash on a greatly rigged Online Casino...... Plus it would be nice not to have any laws that required me to be fair or actually pay the winners...

  27. How do you just block something? by Wannabe+Code+Monkey · · Score: 1

    Can someone help me out here... How exactly does one go about blocking these riders? And why doesn't it happen more often? Also, who gets to add rider's to bills? Can anyone just submit anything they want to be included with a bill?

    I know they tried to pass the line item veto in 1996 to help deal with this, but isn't there anything better we can do to stop so many tacked on clauses? I don't know if I agree with a line item veto because it could be easily abused to get rid of things central to the bill. How about anything added to a bill after a certain period is automatically a candidate for the line item veto.

    Maybe let the supreme court knock down a law as unconstitutional if said law was passed as a rider along with a completely unrelated bill. You could make the argument that congress never really voted on the law because what they were really voting on was the content of the central bill.

    --
    We always knew Comcast was corrupt, here's the proof: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1909890&cid=34545432
    1. Re:How do you just block something? by Control+Group · · Score: 1

      Line item veto is a terrible idea - it would concentrate even more authority into the already overpowerful hands of the executive branch.

      Unfortunately, what needs to happen is an actual Constitutional amendment banning the inclusion of clauses unrelated to the central topic of a resolution or bill. This, at least, would give the SCOTUS grounds to deny enforcement of some portions of some bills.

      There are two problems with this: first, getting 2/3 of both houses to voluntarily give up a legislative tactic that allows members to push through pork and special interest legislation upon which their contribution receipts depend is just about the definition of "lost cause." Second, there is an example of a rule like this in American politics. Technically speaking, Minnesota disallows exactly this, unrelated clauses tacked onto bills. That does not stop it from happening. It's certainly a good idea, but it's no panacea to the problem. The real solution would be for the constituency to call their representatives on shady parliamentary procedure. But since it generally benefits the constituents directly, that's hard to manage, too.

      Really, the best bet for a change like this making it into the Constitution is for the states to call a Constitutional Convention. But that would be a whole different order of disaster.

      Yes, the system is broken. No, it won't be fixed any time soon.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
  28. Information Markets vs Gambling by GrEp · · Score: 1

    So how do we tell the difference between an information market and gambling? Some would say sports betting is just a derivitive play on NFL/NBA team stocks.

      From what I can tell in Iowa, "Bookmaking" is illegal:
      "Bookmaking as used herein means the taking or receiving of any bet or wager upon the result of any trial or contest of skill, speed, power or endurance of human, beast, fowl or motor vehicle..."

    So apparently corprorations in Iowa are not human, best, fowl, or motor vehicle.

    --

    bash-2.04$
    bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
  29. Poison Pills: just what the doctor ordered. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree with you; I think our political system is in desperate need of reform, and not just a few simple Band-Aids.

    However, with the current two-party structure, riders do serve a semi-legitimate, or at least useful, purpose: they provide a way for a minority to torpedo a bill that really shouldn't get passed, preventing a "tyranny of the majority." It doesn't prevent a 'tyranny of the super-majority,' because riders can be defeated through parliamentary procedure, but that's democracy for you.

    It's important when we look at legal procedure, that we don't "streamline" the system too much: sometimes, things that look like terribly stupid ideas (and probably are), are the only things holding back a torrent of terrible legislation. Riders are a double-edged sword in this way; they allow a minority to get things passed that otherwise wouldn't have enough votes -- an obviously undemocratic outcome, and prone to abuse -- but it also works as a blocking maneuver. Sometimes, it can be possible to stop a legislative juggernaut by attaching an impossible-to-pass rider.

    Removing something like this, particularly in the current atmosphere, where other safeguards like filibusters are also on the block, could potentially be disastrous. It could lead to seesaw legislation, with each successive Congress undoing the one before it and then going further in the opposite direction, without any way to stop it. In physics terms, filibusters and poison-pill riders act as drag or friction on a pendulum, which is constantly having energy put into it. Were it not for these outlets, the whole thing could easily oscillate out of control.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:Poison Pills: just what the doctor ordered. by LocalH · · Score: 1
      but that's democracy for you.
      No, it's not.
      --
      FC Closer
    2. Re:Poison Pills: just what the doctor ordered. by Cadallin · · Score: 1

      As I originally posted, that's exactly what it is suppoosed to do. My point was it is a lousy method of accomplishing that goal. I'd argue that proportional representation is a much better method. Two party systems suck almost as bad as one party state, but the fact that our system could be worse doesn't make it good, or even acceptable.

    3. Re:Poison Pills: just what the doctor ordered. by owlnation · · Score: 1
      I think our political system is in desperate need of reform, and not just a few simple Band-Aids.
      I think the most unproductive thing about US Government is the pressure from Lobbyists and the Religious Right. Take for example the following, in the same vein as the Gambling thing:
      • War on Alcohol (prohibition) - was a complete failure at the time and led to a massive increase in organized crime that lasts to this day.
      • War on Drugs - complete and total failure at the expense of billions. There are more drugs than ever. Even despite carpet bombing the opium poppy fields of Afghanistan.
      • War on Terror - resulted in a massive rise in terrorist incidents globally and has left the whole planet in fear - one which we will take decades to recover from, even if it stops today.
      • War on Gambling - Just what will happen, I wonder? (See prohibition)
    4. Re:Poison Pills: just what the doctor ordered. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      testing 1 2 3 and then some more.

  30. WHY was this modded Flamebait? by Were-Rabbit · · Score: 1

    Wait a minute. Why was the parent post modded as "flamebait"? It's exactly the opposite.

    Attaching unrelated riders to "must pass" bills is appalling. It's absolutely staggering that my fellow Americans have allowed our do-nothing-but-try-to-get-reelected officials to continue doing it. I absolutely support Senator Warner with this for two main reasons: (A) the idea of forcing Americans to spend/gamble their money only within American borders for the sole purpose of taxation is repugnant and is exactly what my fellow Republicans are supposed to prevent, and (B) adding totally unrelated riders to a bill is in my opinion completely unethical regardless of whether it's allowed or not. What's next? Preventing Americans from making any purchases on foreign web sites or from foreign companies for the same reason - taxes? Hey, look! Is that a lead balloon coming down on Washington?

    Bravo, Senator! There are so many more important things that we should be worried about! Americans spending their money on non-American web sites should be one of the least concerning issues out there!

  31. Here's whats going on... by Marnhinn · · Score: 5, Informative

    To answer some of your questions... (I work somewhere on the Hill).

    Senators or at least the few that I know or have come in contact with, usually have some sort of philosophy that they follow. This philosophy or set of beliefs serves as a guide on how they will vote. Occasionally you will get someone that is easily influenced by newspapers or political lobbies, but that is in all actuallity, not as common as most people think (which is why when it happens it's big news). There are very strict rules about what kind of gifts politicians and their staff (Senate Staff is limited to 50$ for gifts at receptions) can accept and what they can't.

    For the most part, legislation is not written by Senators (Rep's may write their own). Usually there is a Legislative Assistant(s) or Legislative Director in the office that will write the actual bill or ammendment. The Senator will then review it, and if he / she approves it - it will be submitted to where ever it needs to go (usually a committee of sorts). Often they are attached to other bills, since the legislative process is very slow (and attaching it to something may speed it up).

    Now, as it is election time, many people that are up for re-election are submitting all sorts of things. However, they aren't trying that hard to have them get passed (thankfully - or I'd have no free time), just submitting them so they can claim to have done some work on a certain issue that they may feel their constituents care about (or more likely matches their ideas). Lame Duck session in December, is when the outgoing folks actually sit down and try to get this crap passed.

    So you can assume, that this bill was introduced by someone that believes gambling is wrong. It has nothing to do with the mail that they get, the phone calls people make or the faxes that come in. They don't even see most of those - interns and other staff handle them (although a few Senators actually read a sampling of handwritten mail each week). The politician usually gets a report each week of what mail came in, what issues were popular and what was the stance of the mail (for or against). Usually batch letters (meaning large bunches of faxes / letters / postcards that are all the same ) are not included in that count (cause people often send them in without actually reading them or knowing much about the issue, and mail from someone other then a constituent (meaning outside the politicians district - exceptions being the VA and Natural Resources Committees) or someone that did not put a real mailing address (like the people that always sign with their email address) is ignored. In the event that the politican does not have an opinion on something yet, this mail report will serve to influence their opinion in addition to the research and hearings that they or their staff will conduct. However, their opinion is usually in line with their established philosophy. Long story short, this ammendment was simply so someone could satisfy a mark on their philosophy checklist (most likely), and that is why it was rejected by the Senator (who dislikes this sort of stuff) and not because of some lobbying group.

    The best way to stop these things, is to either write large amounts of handwritten mail to your senator / rep (not other peoples), or simply vote them out during elections time. Problem is -- most people aren't informed enough to actually know what's going on (or at least that is what I see from DC). It's easiest to contact your Senator / Rep at a state office also (if they have some), since most of them spend weekends and when session is out at home.

    --
    There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
    1. Re:Here's whats going on... by rts008 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the informative reply.
      I guess I have some writing to do, as this stuff really bothers me.

      Thanks again for taking the time for a reasonable explaination.

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    2. Re:Here's whats going on... by sgtrock · · Score: 1
      The best way to stop these things, is to either write large amounts of handwritten mail to your senator / rep (not other peoples), or simply vote them out during elections time.


      (sarcasm)
      Will someone please tell me why on earth politicians continue to count handwritten mail more critically than e-mail? Shouldn't the fact that someone hasn't bothered to waste their time going through the time consuming process of attempting to write a clean, legible letter and get it mailed off count as well?
      (/sarcasm)

      Seriously, though. Why do you guys on the Hill care so much about the medium? Why don't you just care about the message?

      I haven't hand written anything more complex than a thank you note in nearly 30 years. My handwriting has never been all that great. Worse, I've always been prone to making mistakes because my mind was generally well ahead of my ability to put things on paper. Not a big deal when typing on a screen, because I can always back up and fix my mistakes as I'm going along (like I'm doing constantly in this post! lol). I never had that luxury handwriting anything. It normally took me /at least/ four drafts to get anything close to acceptable for my high school teachers.

      True story. My dad taught at the local high school, so he knew most of my teachers. One time he asked one of my English teachers how I was doing.

      "Well, I had to give him a C on his last paper." he replied.

      "Why?" my dad asked.

      "The content was great! Definitely A material. But it was so illegible that it should have gotten an F."

      See what I mean? :)

      I quit wasting my time trying to write a perfect letter about 1 second after I discovered word processors. I quit wasting paper and money on stamps about 2 seconds after I discovered e-mail. I started using HTML e-mail almost exclusively about 3 seconds after I realised that I could refer people directly to my sources as part of the email.

      I'm generally considered well read and reasonably thoughtful by the people who know me. When I've taken the time to state my position to my elected representatives, I always put a fair amount of thought into making sure that it was clearly stated and backed up by all the facts that I could marshal. I always list my references so that they could be checked out by the rep or his/her staff. Now I find out that even now, in this day and age, I was probably just wasting my time? That some ill considered notion with no backing except an emotional reaction to a situation that someone chose to jot down on a piece of paper will always carry more weight???

      You're right about one thing. You guys on the Hill do have a somewhat strange view of what's important.
  32. USA is the greatest democracy??? by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1, Insightful
    I doubt it. Go look at http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

    Why does a true democracy need to brainwash its kids from an early age with the declaration of independence?

    Why does any challenge of USA being such a great democracy end up with it being compared to how much better it is than China etc.. Surely if it is so great it should be compared to some of the top democracies and not the bottom ones?

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:USA is the greatest democracy??? by WidescreenFreak · · Score: 1

      Hey, a U.S. senator actually did something good while sticking to his principles! Don't knock us if we get a bit over-excited! This is a rare occurrence in the history of U.S. politics! :)

      --
      The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
    2. Re:USA is the greatest democracy??? by fingusernames · · Score: 1

      Why does a true democracy need to brainwash its kids from an early age with the declaration of independence?

      What on earth is this supposed to mean? Teaching kids about a very important foundational document is brainwashing? What, are you a latent Royalist?

      Larry

    3. Re:USA is the greatest democracy??? by bigdavex · · Score: 1

      Why does a true democracy need to brainwash its kids from an early age with the declaration of independence?

      s/declaration of independence/Pledge of Allegiance ?
      --
      -Dave
    4. Re:USA is the greatest democracy??? by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the correction. Getting that wrong seriously dented my argument.

      --
      Engineering is the art of compromise.
  33. Good luck. by JKConsult · · Score: 1

    Currently, due to prior efforts by Congress and corporations to enforce some sort of "ban" online gambling, all I have to do is go to Central Coin (which purports to be facilitator for online privacy in purchases, or some such whatnot; I've never seen a merchant other than gaming sites that uses their services), deposit some money into the account (and pay some fairly small fee, roughly double ATM transaction fees) and then go to Poker Stars to withdraw that money from CC and deposit to Poker Stars. Whole thing takes roughly 45 seconds.

    With my online sportsbook/casino at SportsInteraction, it's even easier. I fire up the client interface (casino) or browser (sportsbook), and I can deposit money into my Firepay account and transfer it into my SI account all on one screen. So, short of getting IPs from the gaming merchants themselves (not likely), blocking traffic to specific IPs at the ISP level (more likely, still isn't going to happen), banning the use of online third party money handlers (least likely), or taking my computer, I really fail to see how they propose to stop me.

    1. Re:Good luck. by porges · · Score: 1

      Currently, due to prior efforts by Congress and corporations to enforce some sort of "ban" online gambling, all I have to do is go to Central Coin (which purports to be facilitator for online privacy in purchases, or some such whatnot; I've never seen a merchant other than gaming sites that uses their services), deposit some money into the account (and pay some fairly small fee, roughly double ATM transaction fees) and then go to Poker Stars to withdraw that money from CC and deposit to Poker Stars. Whole thing takes roughly 45 seconds.

      With my online sportsbook/casino at SportsInteraction, it's even easier. I fire up the client interface (casino) or browser (sportsbook), and I can deposit money into my Firepay account and transfer it into my SI account all on one screen. So, short of getting IPs from the gaming merchants themselves (not likely), blocking traffic to specific IPs at the ISP level (more likely, still isn't going to happen), banning the use of online third party money handlers (least likely), or taking my computer, I really fail to see how they propose to stop me.

      It's the stuff in bold that would do it. If you can tell that one of these agencies is only used for transferring money into gambling sites, so can the government. And they can put those places on a list and forbid wire transfers and/or EFTs to and from them.

    2. Re:Good luck. by JKConsult · · Score: 1

      Except that it's likely that the only reason they don't try to get other sites to allow them as payment options is because they have absolutely no reason to. If this kind of enforcement started happening, the least they would have to do is start up a few online stores and accept their own payment processing. If they could a few reasonably decent merchants to fall in line as well, all the better.

  34. So... by spiritraveller · · Score: 1

    ...who gets to decide what is outside the subject?

    Congress right?

    Next idea please.

    1. Re:So... by compm375 · · Score: 1

      Congress already can pass laws that are illegal. That is what checks and balances are for.

    2. Re:So... by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      a court case, the point is that a law could be challenged under the new law then thrown out by the courts as improperly passed

      not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than being allowed to add the "rape babies legalization act" to the "continue paying our soldiers act" then screaming at the opposition for wanting to rip off our soldiers

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    3. Re:So... by spiritraveller · · Score: 1

      The courts would not enforce such a law for many reasons.

      Generally, one Congress cannot limit what a later Congress can do without getting a Constitutional amendment.

      Now, if a constitutional amendment was passed, then sure. You can do anything if you can get a constitutional amendment through. But that's not likely. The current trend is to give the federal courts less power, not more.

      These are judges with lifetime appointments. They cannot be removed except through impeachment for "high crimes and misdemeanors". Do you really want someone with that much power and almost no way to hold them accountable making inherently political decisions that affect the entire country, even when there is no "case or controversy" affecting the rights of individuals?

      The "case or controversy" requirement was pointed out in Marbury v. Madison back in the early 19th century. Because of the immense power that the courts have, they are limited to cases that involve aggreived parties. The federal courts cannot strike down a law as unconstitutional without an aggreived person suing a law enforcement agency to bar the law's enforcement.

      But even if today's Congress could limit next year's Congress by simply passing a law, no aggreived person would be able to assert "standing" in a case to contest an act that violated the law, because noone is aggreived by its violation in any special way.

  35. The age of war is dead. (Apologies to Burke) by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Too bad it's going to get a lot more of our service members tortured after capture in retribution and give the terrorist networks even more recruiting fodder.

    The second part of your comment might have merit, in that the new stance might provide propaganda for terrorist recruitment (but really, it's not like there's a shortage), however, if you don't think that anyone in uniform is at risk of being tortured to death if captured anyway, you're sorely mistaken.

    The only reason more people aren't tortured and executed after capture is because the terrorists know they're more useful alive (and on TV) than dead. I doubt it has anything to do with any high-minded moral feelings on the point of the Iraqi insurgents, the Taliban, or the occasional Al Qaeda cell. If any of them are seemingly obeying the Geneva Convention, it's purely coincidental.

    Allow me to play the Devil's Advocate a bit further for a moment:

    Take a think right now to the tactics used throughout much of the Civil War. Seems pretty ridiculous, doesn't it? I mean, lines of people, just blasting away at each other? Almost criminally negligent, in retrospect -- but those were the established tactics, and they were employed up until (and arguably, well beyond -- they should have been obsolete with the introduction of the rifle) when they were impossible to maintain anymore. Since then, tactics and strategy moved on, and now it seems bizarre that people would have chosen to wear uniforms in bright colors, or choose a cleared field for an infantry battle instead of a forest, or engage at a stone's throw instead of the maximum effective range of their organic weapons, as current tactics would dictate (if in the defense).

    I believe that in a generation or two, people will look back on the tactics used in the great wars of the 20th century and by the major powers in the 21st as similarly antiquated. I mean, wearing uniforms? So the enemy can identify you? Idiotic. Refusal to use civilians to mask one's forces will be seen as something quaint; like wearing blaze orange (or bright red) on a battlefield in 1944. The battle dress of the 21st century warrior won't be "woodland" or "ACU digital" (those are carryovers; legacies from a more civilized age, perhaps), but the clothing of the civilian populace. The standard tactics and maneuvers won't be 'Platoon Attack' or 'Knock Out Bunkers,' but 'Creating a Mass Casualty Incident' and 'Propaganda Creation 101.'

    Every time that the methods of war have shifted dramatically, it has been those most successful with the previous generation of tactics that have been the most resistant to change, and who have consequently suffered the most. "Terrorism" isn't some new bogeyman that we can make go away; any more than people who thought the machine gun was uncivilized and barbaric could just snap their fingers and return themselves to a world of cavalry charges and infantry squares. It's the new standard: we just haven't realized it yet.

    Sending more troops and equipment to Iraq and Afghanistan today is about as strategically sound as the generals in the Battle of the Somme sending their troops 'over the top' again and again, into the waiting machine guns. Today, we send our troops, in their well-marked vehicles and uniforms, out to be cut down by IEDs and snipers. War has changed, and probably not for the better, if you liked the 20th century idea of war being something between soldiers and armies that can be drawn on a map or modeled on a sand table. Terrorism is the new war, and the Geneva Convention is about as relevant to that as the Code of Chivalry was to someone trying to keep their feet from rotting off in a trench in 1918.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:The age of war is dead. (Apologies to Burke) by vague_ascetic · · Score: 1

      We are not supposed to torture, not in some Faustian quid pro quo bargain to protect our troops, but because it is the high ground, and we are supposed to walk the high ground.

      Contemporary Conservatives have driven America into the septic pit of situationalism. They judge America's acts using murderous foreign dictators as the referent standard. They justify the unconstitutional acts of a grossly overreaching president by citing as precedent, acts of the symbolic antithesis to conservatism, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. They claim themselves motivated only by the higher goal of expanding democratic processess worldwide when rationalising an immoral war, but switch their toga of justice for a jacket of realism when rationalising Bush's past obscene alliance with the Butcher of Andijon, Islam Karimov, kleptocratic dictator of Uzbekistan.

      Now in a partisan effort, Congress seeks to abrogate habeas corpus, and apply this legislation retroactively, which is by itself a violation of the US Constitution

      The Dreamtime American is being Destroyed by cowards who have solemnly sworn to Defend and Uphold the US Constitution, but fear our Judicial System.

      This Must Cease

      --
      Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
  36. Supermajority rule versus 51% rule. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Um, "tyranny of the super-majority" was meant to be ironic; that is democratic: if enough people want something badly enough, any democratic system must give it to them. In the current U.S. system, it could happen via Constitutional amendments followed by legislation.

    Certainly one could create a system that would be a limited democracy, where there was no way, even if all but one person in the country wanted something done, that it could happen -- a Constitutional Republic where the Constitution was fixed and there was no mechanism for amendments, perhaps; but this would be, in my opinion, less democratic than a U.S.-type system where the entire government can be changed if enough of a super-majority desires it.

    Any good government should protect a minority group from the majority, but there is a certain limit to how big a minority group must be, before it becomes protected: if that minority is smaller than the number of people required to block a super-majority, then it effectively is unprotected. For example, if pedophilia was currently legal, but widely detested, it's likely that a small number of pedophiles would be unable to prevent an abolition of their rights by the majority, because they wouldn't have the votes required to block it. (I'm making an assumption here that pedophiles are a far fringe group; whether this is actually true I'm not sure, but work with me here.) This isn't undemocratic, even though it does represent an oppression of a minority by the majority. When a minority group gets suitably small, it's not a 'legitimate minority' any more: they're just criminals.

    When people speak of the 'tyranny of the majority,' at least in my experience, they speak really of the 'tyranny of 51%.' That is to say, a tyranny where a single person or very small group of people (the 1%) can have an un-deserved influence on the system. Nobody really speaks or cares about the 'tyranny of 99.99999%.' At that point, it's probably not likely to be viewed as tyrannical oppression anymore, but just sensible lawmaking versus criminals.

    Ideally, the size of the supermajority required to oppress a minority group should be just smaller than the number of people needed to overthrow the government completely. This ensures that rather than Revolution, the government is changed via peaceful means; if you make the required supermajority any larger than this, then your government will just collapse.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  37. Re:Second Life by Tekoneiric · · Score: 1

    Redundant?

    --
    *It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*
  38. America has a bill of Rights? by vague_ascetic · · Score: 1

    They're called 'Criminal Combatants' by the president when he rips away their Geneva Conventions Protections without first properly having a determination of their status made through a valid tribunal process. Does this not imply that they are being held as 'criminal' actors by the US government and not as POWs?

    The Sixth Amendment to the US Constitution begins with; "In All Criminal Prosecutions..." The Fifth Amendment to the US Constitutional states that No Person shall have life, liberty or property taken from them by the government without due process of law.

    These humans are being held in violation of the US Constitution, and instead of correcting this grevious harm, Congress has worked tirelessly to abrogate habeas corpus.

    Again I ask, America has a Bill of Rights?

    Originalise this:

    "Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations,--entangling alliances with none; the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns, and the surest bulwarks against anti-republican tendencies; the preservation of the general government in its whole constitutional vigour, as the sheet anchor of our peace at home and safety abroad;...freedom of religion; freedom of the press; freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus; and trial by juries impartially selected,--these principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us, and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

    --
    Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
    1. Re:America has a bill of Rights? by Shihar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They are NOT called "criminal combatants", they are called "enemy combatants". They get that title because they blatantly violate the Geneva Convention. In order to get Geneva Convention protection, you basically need to be either wearing a uniform and clearly marked as a combatant or you need to be a civilian. The Geneva Convention was created to give rules to warfare between two states with conventional armies. The idea behind the Geneva Convention was to try and minimize the loss of civilian life and to set up rules that allow for a smooth transition back to civilian government after the war is over. You can basically boil the rules down the rules of the Geneva Convention to the following:

      1) No intentionally killing civilians.
      2) Always mark yourself as a combatant (wear a uniform) so that civilians are not confused as combatants.
      3) You must accept the surrender of uniformed combatants and you can't just execute them.
      4) When the war is over you need to free the uniformed combatants.

      The implication of these rules is that enemy spies do NOT receive Geneva Convention protection. During the Cold War when either side caught an enemy spy, they did NOT receive Geneva Convention protections. If an American spy was caught in Soviet Russia, we didn't make a stink about it if the Soviets tortured the spy, held the spy forever, or simply killed the spy. All sides agreed that spies do not get Geneva Convention status and so were not privy to receiving its benefits.

      Now, we are in a new type of war. The US doesn't fight uniformed combatants. The US fights people that fight among civilians wearing civilian clothing. Clearly, these people, like spies, are blatantly violating the Geneva Convention. They can't be identified as combatants and intentionally try and pass themselves off as civilians. Hence, they get a new title called an "enemy combatant", which means that they roughly get treated like spies.

      They don't get bill of rights protection because it is absolutely insane to even imply that in a war zone you need to read people their Miranda rights or get search warrants. Soldiers are not crime scene investigators, and crime scene investigators who can take proper evidence for a fair trial are not going to be doing their work in a war zone.

      Enemy combatants (i.e. people fighting out of uniform) occupy a gray area that there are no rules for. There is no Geneva Convention rules that describe how to treat these people. There are no rules in general with how to deal with people who fight wearing civilian clothing in general. If the UN wanted to do something useful (god forbid), they would write up a code to deal with people who fight among civilians disguised as civilians.

    2. Re:America has a bill of Rights? by Talchas · · Score: 1

      However the US should still follow the rules in the Geneva Convention for humane treatment of prisoners because it is the right thing to do. Not to mention, if the US wants to claim the moral high ground, it looks kinda funny to be torturing people.

      --
      As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century,free flow of information is the only safeguard against...
    3. Re:America has a bill of Rights? by rtb61 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      They are innocent people until, in a court of law, they are proven otherwise. The opinion of some grunt in the field, who is relying on the opinion of some local, who is earning a financial reward for turning people in, is not and never would be considered legal reason for permanent detention, let alone torture.

      There is never any real reason to abandon the law, except the old one, some asshat wants to do things for personal motivation and finds that the law inconveniences them.

      Basically they fucked up all over the place. No effort at all was made to maintain even a semblance of justice. Some good intentions were there to start with, but it soon collapsed into mismangement from the top down. As far as the administration was concerned, the focus shifted to how to extract the most corporate profit and away from how to establish law and order. LAW and ORDER was the purpose of the whole excersize, you do not abandon LAW and ORDER and expect by some miracle that it will be achieved.

      The government does not say who people are or who they are not, they prove it in a court of law, and if the representatives of the government fuck up the legal process, than that it is the government's fault. So now a bunch of suspected terrorists will go free because the US administration placed no focus on ensuring that proper legal practices were established.

      The sheer nonsence of the idea, that because no effort was made to establish due legal process, the defence forces can do or say what ever they feel like is just grossly offensive. So the real reason for the secret military tribunals, is not for future investigative purposes, it is to hide the gross legal blundering of the military, there is no evidence because they made absolutely no effort to gather any.

      You should try to screw your head on straight, the geneva convention is there to protect people who are trying to murder other people from the laws that would normally apply. Soldiers are not considered murderers even if they technically are. Civilians who are fighting are not considered soldiers hence they can be treated by the law as murders and tried in court as such, it does not mean you abandon the law at all, it means you apply normal civilian law. Spys were subject to the law, spy were proven as spys in court and then they were punished as the court decided i.e. they were outside the protection of the Geneva convention and subject to the full weight of the law (if there was sufficient evidence to prove that they were in fact spies).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    4. Re:America has a bill of Rights? by glitchvern · · Score: 1
      Enemy combatants (i.e. people fighting out of uniform) occupy a gray area that there are no rules for. There is no Geneva Convention rules that describe how to treat these people. There are no rules in general with how to deal with people who fight wearing civilian clothing in general.
      Actually the Geneva Convention rules state you must give someone some sort of judicial proceeding to determine if they are or aren't a civilian, pow, diplomat, or some other class of people protected by the Geneva Convention. A military tribunal would do for this. After that then you can shoot them in the head or whatever else you feel like doing, at least under the Geneva Convention. I think we've signed other treaties saying we won't torture people, but under the Geneva Convention it would be just dandy once you give them a judicial proceding that determines they are not in one of the protected classes.
    5. Re:America has a bill of Rights? by Cervantes · · Score: 1

      I'll agree with your definition of "Enemy combatants", but under a condition.

      It only applies to enemy soldiers in your /own/ country. If you send your army to invade another country and destroy their military, you can't complain because some of the people fighting to free their country don't wear a recognizable uniform. YOU are the invader, and everyone in the country you've invaded is "the enemy". You can't have your cake and eat it too.

      --
      If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
  39. Why to parliamentarians tolerate riders? by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 2

    I don't get it. I've worked on the board of a non-profit organization before. If somebody tried to avoid review by attaching junk to an otherwise good motion, we'd always either make a motion to split the bill into the separate issues, or just outright vote the thing down. Why do parliamentarians tolerate random crap being added to bills?

    1. Re:Why to parliamentarians tolerate riders? by Control+Group · · Score: 1

      Because it works to the benefit of each individual in the body to let it happen. Expecting the powers-that-be to relinquish some of that power simply for the betterment of the process or the fairness of their governance is a good way to lead a life filled with disappointment.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    2. Re:Why to parliamentarians tolerate riders? by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      Huh? That's what I don't understand. As a politician (if I were one) attaching a rider to a bill means that somebody is trying to avoid my scrutiny, i.e. they're trying to trick me into passing a measure that I wouldn't actually want passed. I'd be absolutely pissed off about that, precisely because it's an attack on my decision-making power.

    3. Re:Why to parliamentarians tolerate riders? by Control+Group · · Score: 1

      By that rationale, though, the filibuster would have been written out of the rules decades ago.

      The way it seems to work is that each person values the possibility of wielding the tactic to his benefit more than he feels hurt by the "other guy" wielding it against him.

      Part of this is because it's all a game. When the other team takes a knee to run the clock out, you don't try and change rules to stop the clock after every down, because you know next time you're on top at the end of the game, you'll do the same thing.*

      *This analogy references American football. If you're unfamiliar with the sport, I can try another one.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    4. Re:Why to parliamentarians tolerate riders? by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I'm not impressed, but you're probably right. Thanks.

    5. Re:Why to parliamentarians tolerate riders? by Control+Group · · Score: 1

      Oh, it's not impressive. The very concept of unrelated riders, in my opinion, is more than a bit crap.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
  40. Mindboggling to an European by Eivind · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Your legislative process is, frankly, mindboggling to most Europeans. It is not clear to me why it makes sense to make a single vote on issues such as: "Should we spend $500 million more on the war in Iraq and ban online gambling ?"

    To any sensible observer these would appear to be two completely separate questions, thus it'd make sense to vote on them separately, I *completely* fail to see the supposed benefits of this "rider"-system.

    You even frequently see semi-controversial stuff "attached" to the most obscure nobody-cares piece of legislation in existence, hoping that it'll get passed before somebody notices or something. Hello ? The entire *point* of a democracy is that people *should* notice the controversial issues, debate them, and then vote on them.

    Can somebody with an insigth please explain what the benefits are ? To outsiders, frankly, it just seems completely ridicolous.

    1. Re:Mindboggling to an European by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, our system is fucked. We are aware of that. I'm sure you are aware that we are aware, also, so I'm not real sure what you want from us.

    2. Re:Mindboggling to an European by Bake · · Score: 1

      That's just it,

      I, personally, am not quite sure that you really are aware.

    3. Re:Mindboggling to an European by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      I'm aware that you guys, the slashdot readership, are aware. However, judging from the lack of stories about the ongoing process to fix it, or stories in maintstream media about how broken it is, etc, I'm not convinced that anyone else is either aware or cares about it.

      Besides, what I think the OP wants is some kind of an idea about the supposed benefits of the system - after all, someone must have sat down and thought "hey, wouldn't it be great if..." *and* got it approved, so there must be a logical reason for it.

    4. Re:Mindboggling to an European by Control+Group · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not that anyone ever actually considered the process and said, "you know it would be really keen if we could attach completely unrelated topics to bills, we should make that possible." It's more a matter of nothing being set up to stop it from happening. Since there's an advantage to it in terms of personal political clout, then, it happens.

      You're right, it's ridiculous. But it's like the bracketed tax system: it doesn't matter whether another method is demonstrably and obviously more fair, just, or cheaper. If it means that it would take power out of the hands of those who have it, it will be, at best, an uphill battle. And uphill battles aren't won by a population that's largely apathetic to the entire political process (no matter how up in arms they might get about the executive office, that's really a very minor part of the legislative process in this country).

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    5. Re:Mindboggling to an European by zx75 · · Score: 1
      The same with us Canadians, I mean in order to pass a bill into law it goes through the process:
      The steps in the federal legislative process are: first reading, second reading, committee stage, report stage, third reading, referral of the bill to the senate house, passage through the senate house, then royal assent from the Governor General. The last stage signals the bill's passage into law.

      If there is not agreement on a bill's contents, amendments are made, discussed and voted upon until there is agreement.
      Source: CBC News Indepth: Canadian Government - picked this source because it was the shortest and most concise, you can find details on the Canadian Parlimentary system in many locations.

      The point is, that even though a bill may address a number of things, it has to pass 3 readings in both of the houses plus reviews and amendments. It doesn't mean that controversial legislation can't be pushed through by the ruling party, but it does mean that the details are in the open and offending sections can be removed. If there is a minority government (like we currently have) that means that the house can easily force the bill to be amended into something sensible before being passed, or just shot down entirely.
      --
      This is not a sig.
    6. Re:Mindboggling to an European by maxume · · Score: 1

      There are no benefits. It is all a part of our government by loud yelling.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Mindboggling to an European by AeroIllini · · Score: 1
      You're right, it's ridiculous.

      Well, yes and no.

      The ability to attach completely unrelated riders to bills is not just a way to sneak things through congress; it's also a necessary check and balance on the party system, just like the other checks and balances in place in our government.

      It serves its purpose to prevent the tyranny of the majority. Let's say (hypothetically, of course) that a single political party controlled both houses of congress AND the presidency (hahahahaha -- that would never happen). Suddenly, every single thing the minority party proposes as a bill gets immediately shot down and/or vetoed, simply on the merits of the Neener Neener Act of 1822. However, allowing riders will give the minority party a chance to get something done in the face of overwhelming majority dissent. "Oh yeah? Well, I won't let you pass the Give Giant Corporations Tons Of Money Act unless you also pass the Save The Starving Welfare Children rider I'm attaching to it! So there!"

      Can it be abused? Certainly. Is it being abused right now? Absolutely.

      But the alternative isn't any better.

      And frankly, if you don't like the people abusing that power, vote them the hell out of office. Many of our problems with Congress would simply go away if we didn't have a 98% incumbency rate. So vote for someone who gives a damn, and will fight for the moderate majority!
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    8. Re:Mindboggling to an European by Eivind · · Score: 1
      I wasn't talking about the theoretical process.

      I was talking about the fact that the US politicians *choose* to suggest, discuss, vote on, and sometimes pass, single-bills with contents like "Supporting Iraqi operations with another $500 million, and outlaw online gambling".

      There's a lot more ridicolous examples than this out there. The question is why they choose to do this. Obviously the *majority* of politicians must consider it to make sense, or they'd just torpedo it. Which they don't. And the *reason* they don't is what I don't get.

      One *could* raise a suggestion like this in Norway too (or in any other country, I suppose). Thing is, it'd get laughed out. The first thing that'd happen is someone (anyone!) would take the stand and suggest an express-vote to deny the suggestion, and suggest the issues get re-submitted as separate items.

  41. A hypothetical. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    On a personal level, I agree.

    However I have a hypothetical question that came to mind. What if it became clear that the ideals of Western society were counterproductive to its survival? As in, what happens when you start to see your way of live being subsumed by a more aggressive culture, because of strongly-held beliefs that prevent the response that would prevent the takeover?

    I'm not saying that such a situation exists at present, but what if it really was an "existential struggle" in the literal sense of one culture systematically destroying the fabric of the other, and the one being destroyed was at a grave disadvantage because of self-imposed limitations that were not symmetric?

    One argument would suggest that the only correct course of action is to maintain those beliefs to the grave; even if in holding them it ensures the destruction of one's culture by another. I'm not sure this is really a practical suggestion. This implies that there is nothing to your culture besides this belief -- nothing at all -- because you can't carry on if you betray it. Plus, it also implies that once given up, the belief can't be reinstated later; i.e., that the moral high ground, once lost, can never be re-ascended.

    Like I said, I'm not into the Book of Revelation school of foreign policy, but I think it's an interesting philosophical question as to what various cultures would do when really threatened with being put to the bayonet as a result of their hesitance to do something morally reprehensible; I think it would be very rare indeed for any group to not compromise itself.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:A hypothetical. by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      However I have a hypothetical question that came to mind. What if it became clear that the ideals of Western society were counterproductive to its survival? As in, what happens when you start to see your way of live being subsumed by a more aggressive culture, because of strongly-held beliefs that prevent the response that would prevent the takeover?

      That depends on the measures taken. Do you believe that legalizing torture is a necessary step to deal with a criminal group like these? They are less dangerous than car accidents at the moment and I don't think that all this new anti-terror legislation captures enough criminals to justify the damage it causes to our rights. Any measure taken has to be weighted for its expected usefulness vs. the impact on the rights of the populace. A Holocaust would be the fastest way to remove any muslim terrorists from the country but it hurts so many innocents it should not even be considered.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:A hypothetical. by vague_ascetic · · Score: 1

      I am walkabout in the American Dreamtime, I accept the concept of natural rights without proof as axiomatic to the US Government. By setting up a class of natural rights, the founders effectively restrained government's reach, because a natural right is possessed by humans. This concept of personal liberty is in large measure what makes America a fine country. Natural rights have another important quality which is sadly lost on most present Americans; their applicability is universal, and is not a quality of nationality, for if they are only a right of American citizens, they are not preeminent, but freedoms that a magnanimous state has proffered to is citizens, and they would no longer be secure, possessed by the people.

      This is what is in threat of being lost. Habeas Corpus is the bedrock into which natural rights are grounded, and this congressional act of tyranny must be resisted.

      If the detainees had never been unlawfully stripped of their Geneva Protections, this issue would not even be germane, but once they were yanked out as non POWs, the constitution's due process protections kick in.

      I am too much of a Jeffersonian to accept that this is incompatible with the country's survival, and instead loudly state, that without it, America is lost.

      --
      Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
  42. I don't get it by r_bertram42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why does the American government insist on being different from the rest of the world? Why do they try to be so self-righteous?

    In Europe, online gambling is very much accepted, and doesn't interfere with all the land-based casinos that spread all across Europe. They make enough money as it is.
    888.com is very popular in Britain, for example. And people there don't see it as an addictive thing that should be banned, but rather as a way to get some entertainment. Instead of going out to a movie and dinner, you can enjoy a quick game of blackjack or roulette, and make sure to limit yourself to $50 or whatever your budget is. If you lose it - you lose it, and that's it. It's just like spending the same money on some other form of entertainment.

    --
    -- You must be yay-high to rule the world.
    1. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > 888.com is very popular in Britain, for example.

        Yep, like waiting for the pub to open at 10am.
        Would be fun to know what would happen to british economy if betting would be banned

    2. Re:I don't get it by robertjw · · Score: 1

      And people there don't see it as an addictive thing that should be banned, but rather as a way to get some entertainment.

      So, you are telling me there is no gambling problems in Europe. Nobody comes home and gambles away their paycheck on party poker? I'm not for outlawing online gambling, but I have a hard time swallowing the idea of a Europe that are so temperate and moderate that they have no abusers of ANYTHING.

    3. Re:I don't get it by d1on1x · · Score: 1

      It would be wonderfull if your reply was a little near the truth, but it isn't. Europe is bigger then the United Kingdom, and in many European countries the gouvernment has the monopoly on offline & online gambling. They claim they can protect the players better to all the downsides that accompany (think addiction) gambling. Oh and did I mention they like the revenues that are part of this whole casino and poker business? Even though a lot of gambling companies are registered within the United Kingdom (and are therefor part of Europe, which means they should be able to do business in Europe as they are in the UK) they actually ban players from certain countries because allowing them to play will result in huge fines...

      And the 'addiction thing'? You should read some reports and recent lawsuits.. Addiction problems are in the main reasons the countries are bypassing the EU laws (which are indeed more lose on the gambling part). It's not like in the US, but it is certainly not like in the UK here in mainland Europe. . . . (yet)

    4. Re:I don't get it by AeroIllini · · Score: 1
      In Europe, online gambling is very much accepted, and doesn't interfere with all the land-based casinos that spread all across Europe. They make enough money as it is. 888.com is very popular in Britain, for example. And people there don't see it as an addictive thing that should be banned, but rather as a way to get some entertainment. Instead of going out to a movie and dinner, you can enjoy a quick game of blackjack or roulette, and make sure to limit yourself to $50 or whatever your budget is. If you lose it - you lose it, and that's it. It's just like spending the same money on some other form of entertainment.

      You talk as if banning online gambling has anything to do with morality.

      The banning of online gambling boils down to two things in this country, as do almost all things political: money, and reelection.

      Online gambling is currently not taxable, so the government has no reason to protect it. You'll notice that other casinos are not only not banned, but even have a certain protected status, mostly because they are taxable. As if giving some Native Americans a stack of chips and a blackjack table makes up for years of genocide.

      These kinds of bills are also always drafted and proposed right before elections, because the extremist nuts who actually do vote in this country genuinely care about this from a moral standpoint. It makes no logical sense for these extremists to ban online gambling and not other forms of gambling (most of them are happily betting away in NFL office pools), but when a senator gets up on a box and tells them that gambling websites are WRONG and IMMORAL and BABY JESUS DOESN'T GAMBLE ONLINE, then they are more than happy to toss online gambling sites into a lake, declare them witches, and have them burned at the stake. After all, who doesn't love a good witch burning?

      Additionally, why should addictive things be banned, simply because they are addictive? Anything can be addictive. How you destroy yourself is no business of mine.

      I noticed that your post was immediately in defense of gambling, as if it was an action that needed defending. Do you also have to defend to me why you bought that cheeseburger (I was hungry, I certainly don't have an eating disorder), why you drove to work (I didn't want to walk in the rain, of course I'm not lazy), or why you watched Star Trek last Saturday instead of going out (I was tired and it's all that was on, I'm not a nerd!)? You have a right to gamble with your own money, for any reason, just like you have a right to buy a cheeseburger instead of a salad, drive to work instead of walking, and watch Star Trek instead of going out, all without explaining why those things are not harmful. You don't have to explain yourself.
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    5. Re:I don't get it by r_bertram42 · · Score: 1

      So, you are telling me there is no gambling problems in Europe.

      No, that is NOT what I'm saying. Of course there are people who are addicted to gambling and that's hurting them and the people surrounding them. But the general public doesn't think of gambling only as a bad thing, they also see it as entertainment.

      Let me exaggerate a bit, and compare gambling in Britain to drugs in the Netherlands. Around the world, drugs are considered bad and wrong, no matter what kind of drug it is ("Drugs are baaad", said Mr. Garrison), but in the Netherlands there are laws the permit the use of certain drugs under certain laws. Of course there are still those who suffer from drug addictions there, but there are those who use them in a sensible way for fun.

      By the way, Italy is apparently about to legalize online gambling too, so how about that?

      --
      -- You must be yay-high to rule the world.
    6. Re:I don't get it by robertjw · · Score: 1

      By the way, Italy is apparently about to legalize online gambling [777.com] too, so how about that?

      I think if there's one thing the Europeans are good at in their legal systems it's practicality. The Italians tried to block the IP addresses of online gamblers, quickly realized the futility of such a policy, so are not going to legalize and tax online gambling. The US government and citizens are generally much more idealistic, at least on the surface. Online gambling is looked down on 'because it's bad for you', just like drugs, steriods, cigarettes, etc... Most of the time our politicians take advantage of the idealism of their constituents just so the government can make a few extra bucks.

      Kudos to the Italians for figuring out that fighting the system isn't always a good idea.

  43. If online gambling goes with a defense bill... by gd23ka · · Score: 1

    ... it really wonder about all the other "laws" and "regulations" they "pass".
    Note my quotation marks, I don't think anything they do or come up with is
    in any way honest and worthy and the act of "passing the law" is a farce
    in itself.

    The real issue to be upset here is not that they're not happy about losing their
    grip on gambling, the real issue to be upset here is about how they're conning
    us.

    But it's all right I suppose. After all we have other things to worry about and
    we can't be bothered with stuff that is so clearly off our radar. We got lives to
    attend to and bills to pay ... and never mind that it's them who make us miserable
    and they're the reason the bills are so high.

    1. Re:If online gambling goes with a defense bill... by BCW2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pick any major spending bill and see what gets added on, normally just before a vote and with limited debate. Any amendment that doesn't pertain to that specific bill is probably waste. It has been estimated that 3/4 of government waste occurs here. This is used as a form of blackmail of the President (party doesn't matter) If he wants his Defence, Human Services, Foriegn Aid, Farm, or whatever bill he has to sign the whole thing with tens to hundreds of waste amendments tacked on or get nothing.
      This is the reason people have tried to get the line item veto approved for the President. All Presidents want it regardless of party. There was an attempt to use one by Clinton and the Supreme court shot it down. There have been several attempt since then but it never passes Congress.

      --
      Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  44. you're sooo nineties... by vague_ascetic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Been a while since you spent time in Vegas?

    Las Vegas is constantly adjusting their pitches and hooks. It's how they stay profitable. They love to call new angles in their agressive marketing techniques, "Reinventing Las Vegas". What a load of hype, nothing has been truly reinvented, it's sill all about you, Loser.

    The early nineties overt push for families has been on the whole discredited, and the official Vegas spin is no long, "Please bring the kids", it instead has morphed to, "Uh, ok, If you bring the kids".

    After several years overtly seeking families as a primary source of visitors, the mid-nineties saw most major properties (Mandalay Bay Properties [formerly Circus Circus] execpted) backing away from it. After several years of market studies and analysis, Gaming Corporations realised that if you bring you kids to Vegas, both your maximum allowable gambling time, and your maximum acceptable losses in the casino are significantly reduced. I guess one needs a 4 year University degree in marketing to be able to drag out the self-evident for so long.

    Major Gaming Corporations which operate in Nevada are not opposed to internet gambling, as long as it is a free market, and they are allowed to enter into it. If lawfully enabled to do so, the corporations could scale up their net resources instantly, and almost overnight have top class enterprise gaming web site which could easily compete with pre-existing sites.

    The Vegas gaming corporations have discovered that California tribal gambling didn't turn out to be the goose neck-breaker many were predicting. It has affected Reno negatively. In Las Vegas, the tribal casinos have served to greatly broaden the base of potential visitors to the city, and at the same time operate as a trap for low-end players Vegas would be just as happy without. It seems that P.T. Barnum vastly underestimated the statical frequency, and it's more like, 'one born every second'.

    Vegas does agressiveley market conventions still, and even though the atendees, as a broad group gamble less than the average visitor, their consumption of other high profit-margin hotel offerings can sometimes exceed cash flow projections had the rooms been filled with non-business visitors.

    --
    Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
  45. The question is... by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Disallowing an unrelated rider to be tacked on to a bill? Is this a sudden attack of conscious, or a sudden attack of campaign contributions?

  46. Nanny Government Speaking, How may I help you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But won't you think of the children?!??!!?

    MY GOD, WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!??!?!?!

    Please, nanny government, please make my decisions for me because I'm a complete and utter retard and can't make them on my own.


    Nanny government speaking, how many I help you?

    "May I gamble"? Why, dear, go gamble all you want. It's a free country. Just don't neglect your responsiblities, or Nanny will get angry with you.

    If you fail to honour your commmitment to your children's future due to gambling addiction, drug addiction, or any other problem that takes your primary focus off your primary job AS a parent(raising your children to grow up to be a decent set of honest, law abiding citizens), Nanny Government WILL call in her Child Services department, and take your kids to a safe place where they can get be educated to grow up to be more responsible citizens than you.

    See? Nanny Government thinks of the children.

    Make sure you to do, too, okay, dear?

  47. that's not the way it works by SewersOfRivendell · · Score: 1

    they don't have a choice. Amendments to bills can be added by vote or in committee. They can only complain.

  48. Johns Warner & McCain, Bullshit Twins by SewersOfRivendell · · Score: 1

    This is nonsense. The Warner/McCain/etc bill is a total capitulation to the Bush/Cheney administration. The whole 'we're so independent, we're standing up to teh Prez!' thing is a bullshit kabuki dance intended to get McCain some independent cred for the 2008 presidential election in exchange for being considerably more publicly sympathetic to the theocratic agenda of the far right than he has been in the past.

    Aside from legalizing torture, the bill effectively eliminates habeas corpus, an important principle of law enshrined in the main body of the US Constitution itself. Eliminating habeas corpus means that the administration can jail you indefinitely simply by calling you as a terrorist. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, but here it is, in one tidy package.

    How can a former torture victim like McCain roll over like this? Easy: he's selfish, he's a far-right wingnut (not a centrist -- look at his voting record), and he's personally never going to be tortured again, so what does he care? He wants to be president, and that's all that matters to him.

    Warner is a damn liar like the rest of them. And so is McCain. Remember in 2008.

    1. Re:Johns Warner & McCain, Bullshit Twins by CaffeineAddict2001 · · Score: 1

      OMG. This is so cynical it's ridiculous.

      "Sure, he was beaten to the point of unconsciousness in the Hanoi Hilton for 5 years but he doesn't really care about torture. The *real* reason he is making such a fuss is to impress independent voters."

      Perhaps who you should remeber in 2008 are all the democrats who "rolled over" and passed the bill rather than the sponsor.

  49. E-mail and medium... by Marnhinn · · Score: 1

    E-mail ranks low on the list because it is so easy to send. People can send (and do) large batches of email (10,000's when some website organizes some campaign) that basically say the same thing (and is often incorrect on the issue), and just tack names out of the phone book on them. Also, most email has no information on / in it that allows politicians to see where it is from (location wise). That is why email / faxes weight low (you might not like it, but it is a fact of life).

    Handwritten mail, that is clean and legible is important because it allows communication back with the constituent - and can create an environment in which dialogue is possible. This dialogue allows people here to communicate easier w/ people back home.

    --
    There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
    1. Re:E-mail and medium... by sgtrock · · Score: 1

      Handwritten that is clean and legible. Sigh. Good luck getting anything worthwhile from me, then. :(

    2. Re:E-mail and medium... by Marnhinn · · Score: 1

      You might try typing it - but sign it by hand. It might get mistaken for a batch, but if you format it so it looks like something else than a form letter - it probably will get in.

      --
      There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
    3. Re:E-mail and medium... by sgtrock · · Score: 1

      Worth a try, I suppose.

      I would still argue that if you're dumping all emails into one large bit bucket and treating them the same, you're making a serious mistake. With all the truly good email filtering tools out there, can't you guys find something to adapt to filter through all the political spam to find the original stuff?

    4. Re:E-mail and medium... by Marnhinn · · Score: 1

      I'm not exactly sure why they haven't tried filtering them better (I don't work in that sector - I just know how they currently do it). Until recently (last year), a fair amount of offices used to print all the emails off and hand sort them. Government at this level is usually several years behind on technology though (there are a few offices that still haven't moved WinXP for example) and there are no plans to upgrade to Vista when they come out.. Also, there are unique concerns here with security, volume and other problems...

      --
      There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
    5. Re:E-mail and medium... by sgtrock · · Score: 1

      I don't know if anyone is still following this thread or not. In case anyone is....

      ===

      All government is /always/ behind on technology adoption. The Feds no more so than anyone else. :)

      With that said, though, I don't think your security and volume problems are as unique as you think. Witness GoogleMail, for example. Heck, even Fortune 100 companies have the same kind of volume that I would expect a Senator to receive.

      The core problem isn't all that hard, really. It just takes somebody to sit down and develop some pretty basic pattern matching software that looks for large repeating blocks of text, then back that up by looking for repeating phrases. Do frequent resets to allow for people gaming the system, and you should catch 80+ percent of the spam.

      At times I wish I was a programmer instead of a former network/system admin who grew into an architect's role. This sounds like a great opportunity for an OSS project.

  50. How about using the system? by SEWilco · · Score: 1

    How about introducing a bill which is only about online gambling and having people vote on it? Complaining about not being allowed to create a garbage bill doesn't seem kosher.

  51. Everytime you wage a bet online... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a kitten get's tortured somewhere.

  52. I love headlines like this by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    New Flash: Dinosaurs Still Extinct! (Full story at 11:00!)

  53. your defense of tyranny is unconvincing by vague_ascetic · · Score: 1

    I was mistaken, the term 'criminal combatant' is not used officially by the Bush Administration, but your refutation is disingenuous, and even more error ridden than my misstatement.

    Instead of 'criminal combatant' the Bush Administration seems to prefer "unlawful enemy combatant", which also carries the implication that these humans are held as criminal actors, does it not? They are certainly defined by more than your truncated "enemy combatant", because that would not in any way distinguish them from POWs, and the Administration created an unconstitutional third class, attempting to place these humans outside the reach of the rule of law.

    On November 29, 2001, Mr. Bush, speaking at the U.S. Attorneys Conference, clearly stated that these individuals are criminal actors, and then posits that he, of and by himself, has the ability to abrogate their natural rights:

    "They are unlawful combatants who seek to destroy our country and our way of life. And if I determine that it is in the national security interest of our great land to try by military commission those who make war on America, then we will do so."

    Mr. Bush's sole legitimising force is the US Constitution, and he has now twice solemnly sworn to uphold and protect it, yet works to destroy it by claiming a President can lawfully act outside of its constraints. The American President is not above the Supreme Law of the land. Bush engages in tyranny when claiming this.

    Ari Fleischer danced a situationalist jig during a White House Press Briefing on January 28, 2002:

    "...the Geneva Convention was written in a very different era, following world war -- to apply to the war on terrorism, where people don't wear uniforms, they are unlawful combatants and they come from 30 different nations, not any one recognized nation with whom the United States is fighting a war."

    It still does not matter if this is indeed a different era, or just a time of an incompetent executive, The US Constitution Article VI; clause 2 guides:

    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

    Clearly the Geneva Conventions are the Supreme Law of the Land, and since under the Conventions a High Contracting Party is restrained from withdrawing from them during a time of war, Bush violated the Constitution in his detainee determination. I will address that issue later.

    The US Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues, Pierre-Richard Prosper, speaking at Chatham House in London on February 20, 2002, clearly defined them as criminal actors, then went on to claim that Due Process of Law does not apply to them:

    "The members of al Qaida fail to meet the criteria to be lawful combatants under the law of war. In choosing to violate these laws and customs of war and engage in hostilities, they become unlawful combatants. And their conduct, in intentionally targeting and killing civilians in a time of international armed conflict, constitute war crimes. As we have repeatedly stated, these were not ordinary domestic crimes, and the perpetrators cannot and should not be deemed to be ordinary 'common criminals.'

    Unlawful combatants by their nature forfeit special benefits and privileges accorded by the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War. If captured, they are apprehended for their criminal activity and not as prisoners of war as envisioned by the Geneva Convention."

    --
    Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
    1. Re:your defense of tyranny is unconvincing by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Stunning. Absolutely brilliant. To disagree with you is to shit on the U.S. Constitution, and to defame the notion of an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the persuit of Happiness.

      Tyranny in the 13 American Colonies under George III was fractional, compared to these outrages. ...But it isn't Bush as the ultimate actor here - he's the sock puppet for trillionaire mega-wealth - those elite who never wanted a Republic, and have worked to undermine such since they first cozied Hamilton up to Washington.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
  54. Is physmail getting through unscreened now? by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    For the longest time it was getting "delayed" after the anthrax scare.

    1. Re:Is physmail getting through unscreened now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not unscreened, but fast. It spends less than 1hr in the screening now - they slice the bottom of the letter, but nothing else.

  55. The Pledge of Allegiance is anti-American. by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

    -n/t-

    --
    Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  56. Who needs a line item veto when you have by BitterAndDrunk · · Score: 1
    Signing statements?

    And the best part is they're really hard (if not impossible) to challenge!

    Hooray for executive abuses!

    --
    You better watch out, there may be dogs about . . .
  57. Online poker is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is now official. Bill Frist confirms: Online poker is dying

    One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered online poker community when IDC confirmed that online poker market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that online poker has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. online poker is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent World Poker Tour Texas Holdem survey.

    You don't need to be Greg Raymer to predict online poker's future. The hand writing is on the wall: online poker faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for online poker because online poker is dying. Things are looking very bad for online poker. As many of us are already aware, online poker continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

    PartyPoker is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core donkeys. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time PartyPoker players Doyle Brunson and Chris Moneymaker only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: PartyPoker is dying.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    PokerStars leader Lee Jones states that there are 70000 players on Pokerstars. How many users of Bodog are there? Let's see. The number of PokerStars versus Bodog posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Bodog users. UB posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of Pokerstars posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of UB. A recent article put Doyle's Room at about 80 percent of the online poker market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 Bodog users. This is consistent with the number of Bodog Usenet posts.

    Due to the troubles of poor customer service, confusing emails, monster rakes and so on, PartyPoker went out of business and was taken over by Full Tilt who run another troubled cardroom. Now Full Tilt is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

    All major surveys show that online poker has steadily declined in market share. online poker is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If online poker is to survive at all it will be among hard core poker addicts. Online poker continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, online poker is dead.

    Fact: online poker is dead