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The US's Reverse Brain Drain
We may have to rethink the assumption that Silicon Valley is the hotbed of innovation in which all the world's best and brightest want to work and live. TechCrunch has a piece by an invited expert on the reverse brain drain already evident and growing in the US as Indian, Chinese, and European students and workers in the US plan to return home, or already have. From an extensive interview with Chinese and Indian workers who had already left: "We learned that these workers returned in their prime: the average age of the Indian returnees was 30 and the Chinese was 33. They were really well educated: 51% of the Chinese held masters degrees and 41% had PhDs. Among Indians, 66% held a masters and 12% had PhDs. These degrees were mostly in management, technology, and science. ... What propelled them to return home? Some 84% of the Chinese and 69% of the Indians cited professional opportunities. And while they make less money in absolute terms at home, most said their salaries brought a 'better quality of life' than what they had in the US. ... A return ticket home also put their career on steroids. About 10% of the Indians polled had held senior management jobs in the US. That number rose to 44% after they returned home. Among the Chinese, the number rose from 9% in the US to 36% in China."
More jobs for the rest of us.
Why is this a surprise? Isn't that exactly why they came here in the first place?
Would this be caused by expiring H1-B Visas as discussed previously?
Here's a shocker: we educate foreign students at the cost of displacing domestic students, and then watch as they leave the US and put our industries out of business. Meanwhile, we're left in the cold because domestic students were passed in favor of these foreign students. Who would have thought?
Of course, the people running the graduate programs are from these countries...
Until the US federal government stops regulating the US labor market with work visas we will not have a reason to fix our education system.
Also wages will not rise and unemployment will stay high. We need to protect our markets too. We are the only nation that fails to protect its domestic markets. And we are the only nation that imports highly skilled labor the way we do.
Before H-1B wages rose. Jobs used to be great in programming and IT. But since we started H-1b about 12 years ago things have slid and only gotten worse and worse.
The solution is to let the US labor market regulate itself the way its supposed to.
the reverse brain drain already evident and growing in the US as Indian, Chinese, and European students and workers in the US plan to return home, or already have.
Between Homeland Security and treating H1-B's like slave labor, who can blame them? They can go home and enjoy a better lifestyle than they have here and not get treated like a potential terrorist.
Funny is how many of the teabirthers walking around thinking this is the best place in the world to live and everyone wants to come here.
Not anymore.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Have you ever tried applying for a green card in America? You get stuck in a queue and have to wait years before you might finally get permission to stay here. It's no way to plan a secure future for yourself. It's also worse for migrants from certain countries. I have Indian friends who have basically been told that the process may take so long that they'd be better finding other means to change their status (e.g. marriage).
The US makes it quite difficult for talented people who follows the law to stay in the country. It does not surprise me in the least that Indians are returning home.
...the U.S. had the greatest rise in its living standards. Scientists, engineers, and other professionals from all over the world migrated here in seach of a better life, the opportunity to live pretty much in peace and quiet, or simply to survive. It was seen as the most desireable place to live in the world, and that seemed to become a self-fulfilling prophecy as 'the best and the brightest' came here to do their best.
I wonder, are more folks returning to their home countries' simply because of money and career advancement? Or do they feel less welcome in the culture? Or perhaps their own home cultures are changing to where they feel they can shape them for the better?
This seems more like an anecdote than a study; but there is something wrong when science and engineering and other technical fields are seen as undesirable by most Americans, and the immigrants who come here to learn them decide that they'll have better opportunites back home to use them.
don't tell Kurzweil, but all of tech is slowing down.... especially the most glorified moore's law (i know, i know, it's not a law, and it's about circuit density, etc)
i've been monitoring different computer performance benchmarks over the years, and back in the days up to the P4, double times were about thirty months. now they are up to three years, or more.
the heartrate of the dream is what is slowing down....
Here in Quebec, Canada, universities charge a certain rate for Quebec residents, a higher one for students from other provinces and an even higher one for students from outside of Canada (France is an exception). The price ratio is about 1:2 for Quebec:out-of-province and about 1:5 for Quebec:non-Canadian. As a result, we have more "local" graduates who aren't tempted to return to their country after receiving a good education. This doesn't mean that the graduating population is predominantly white, male and heterosexual - it just means that we lose less graduates to their countries of origin.
The moral of the story: education is still too cheap for foreigners in the United States. If you want more US citizens to obtain degrees in these fields, charge much more to people from other countries - this will decrease demand from foreigners and open spots to US citizens.
"...most said their salaries brought a 'better quality of life' than what they had in the US."
I'm guessing that by better quality they mean materialistically. Being a US citizen I would prefer to live in a place where human rights are championed, personal liberty is maximized and freedom of speech and freedom from government oppression is paramount. So, I guess I'm saying where should I move to?
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
The reasons for this exodus are straight out of an economics textbook. This is SUPPOSED to happen in a free world with free trade. Overall, this move is ADVANCING human civilization and making things just a bit better for the rest of humanity. Right now, the high tech industry in California is one of the most amazing industries the world has ever known. Among other things, those highly educated people who are returning to China and India are bringing knowledge and skills that will allow them to replicate some of the wonders of California in India and China. How is that a bad thing?
Sure, those Chinese and Indian companies will compete with the U.S. firms...but competition is a good thing for humanity as a whole.
Two comments. First, "age of prime" is 30-33? Is IT really that anti-fogey? Second, degrees above bachelor are generally held in higher regard outside of the US. US companies value what they see as "actual productivity" and will usually trade a more productive BS for a lack-luster MS[1]. In most countries, especially Asia, advanced degrees are simply given more esteem compared to the US. More money AND more chicks.
[1] Those with advanced degrees claim their extra knowledge helps in areas that are less visible to management but still very important. But, that's another story.
Table-ized A.I.
Maybe my brain has been drained, too, but, if all the educated people are leaving the US, wouldn't that be a good old regular brain drain and not a reverse brain drain?
"I am Dr. Freud, but you may call me.siggy."
The Chinese ICBM / space program was started by a man deported from the US in 1958 during the McCarthy era. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsien_Hsue-shen ). You'd think the inherent lesson from that situation would be burning brightly right now, but apparently the US has already deported everyone capable of learning from past mistakes. A nation of idiots, you are.
more than anything else, this portends the end of the American century.
I've come back to Korea to build state of the art mobile applications based on social networking.
The last company my CEO ran grew to employ over two thousand people on three continents. After cashing out he became a very rich man. Now he wants to repeat this success but is starting in Korea.
Because this is where the opportunity is.
From the article: "Some 27% of the Indians and 34% of the Chinese had permanent resident status or were U.S. citizens. That’s right—it’s not just about green cards." It does seem to have everything to do with the economy: "Only 7% of Chinese students, 9% of European students, and 25% of Indian students believe that the best days of the U.S. economy lie ahead. Conversely, 74% of Chinese students and 86% of Indian students believe that the best days for their home country’s economy lie ahead."
Given that the United States has taken the lion's share of blame for the "global economic crisis", this attitude is not surprising. Plus, we're long removed from the heyday of the Silicon Valley, an era in which innovation and idea poaching ruled instead of racing to patent anything remotely obvious. Twenty, even ten years ago, there was little talk of India or China becoming the next economic superpower. So the idea of being both financially secure and being close to your family is really appealing to these folks.
It's not all doom and gloom though - it still speaks volumes that these workers come to the United States to cut their teeth and gain the technical/management experience that they bring back home.
Freedom is drinking a beer in the park when you're supposed to be at work.
Internationalization is key in the current world market. Corporations eagerly recruit those with language ability, especially with experience overseas. It seems reasonable that people from Asia, with higher education and work experience in the United States would have particular upper management value to business in Asia, that market or pursue partnership with the Americas.
It's news that it's for some reason being called "reverse" brain drain.
I guess slashdot editors have already had too much reverse brain drain...
When you have rising population of white supremacist and neo-cons in this country, who claims that Chinese people are coming over to kill Americans, bringing in loaded guns into an Obama town hall meeting, glass ceiling in corporations (especially defense contractors), I wouldn't surprise this happen, sooner or later.
New Economic Perspectives
But then you'd have to live in _India_
Woow Kizlik bozma
I am in this position right now. I am an H1-B holder. I have a Masters in Computer Science. While most of my coworkers worked 40-45 hours a week I was doing 80 and quickly gained higher positions and expertise (hard work pays off in the land of opportunity). I love the US. Its a great place to live and I've lived here since I came to do my Bachelors (Computer Science also). I paid out of state tuition for all 7 years, out of my own pocket (which totaled > 60K).
I recently applied for an extension on my H1-B after my 3 years of working at a company and it was rejected by the government. The initial reason given was that we couldn't prove that my job required a degree so they came back and asked us for more info (called an RFI - request for information). (I am involved in long term projects from architecture, design, development and process analysis). The day I found out that my visa was rejected, my company, a small business of about 30 people also found out that a dept of the state had chosen me to work for them on a project for which they interviewed 30 people from around the US. My company lost that deal because the US rejected my visa and lost out on > 500,000 dollars of revenue over the contract. The company also lost 3 other contracts with clients I was currently with which would have probably panned out to 50k-100k each per year.
The revenue from that contract would have keep me and 2 other co-workers employed for at least 3 years and now my former company is going to probably fire 2 US citizens. This was the height of irony! The government royally screwed my company.
The immigration dept has really cracked down on H1-B visa holders and is rejecting them by asking them to prove stupid claims. Here are a few questions from my RFI.
1. Why does a Senior Software Engineer position require a Computer Science degree!
2. Provide all earning statements for the last 3 years and for all states you had income from.
3. Provide all client contracts that you had in the last 3 years for the full company.
4. Provide a detailed job description along with future contracts (for all 3 years) along with locations, contacts of client companies and images of work areas.
My visa was finally rejected because they feared that I would work in California (where my company doesn't have any clients or a branch). The process is really ridiculous right now and I have started looking at canada, singapore and india. I would prefer to stay and finish my 3 years and get a path to citizenship but if I have to leave, so be it.
The icing on the cake is that since they reject my appeal, I have 10 days to leave the country. So pack your bags, sell your car and belongings (or throw them away) and get the fuck out in 10 days.
Thanks for all the fish O Land of Opportunity!
I will say this to all you US citizen and green card holders. DO NOT SQUANDER YOUR OPPORTUNITIES! The US is the greatest place on earth and if you work hard, you can really live a great life. Peace.
The GFC and the collapse of the USD mean one thing: living standards are going to drop in the USA. That's an experience I'm happy to leave to the Americans.
Where i work, I'm waiting for H&R to give me the nod so I can export myself and my job (mmm, telecommuniting) out of the USA. I've had enough of needing to drive to work everyday and put up with SFBA traffic woes.
Sure, the weather in SFBA might be pleasant most of the year, but I'd rather live and work in a city where I can walk or use public transport to easily get to/from work.
There will probably be a pay cut in relocating out of the SFBA but I'm not worried: the SFBA is an absurdly expensive place to live, especially in Silicon Valley, when you consider what you get for your money.
And don't forget that the vallue of the US dollar is dropping on a daily basis, back to where it was pre-GFC, so the value of my salary (in real world terms) is also dropping.
To summarise, I can live a much more comfortable life in other parts of the world without having to worry about my retirement fund becoming worthless or the value of my savings/investments being degraded. It is nice to have lived and worked in SFBA but the USA is not a place I want to spend my entire life in.
A better world is in your interest and you do spend money on making it quite directly in the form of aid - except that this is very effective aid.
These people will go home and help to create new industries that will reduce the press of people trying to get into the US - because they too will be able to get decent work at home.
The relative advantage that the US has can't be maintained indefinitely without something new happening. All you're seeing is that the rest of the world is becoming a slightly better place. If you want to keep your standard of living high compared to the rest of the world (which it probably is for people without high-powered degrees) then you're going to have to have something new to offer.
This is all just my personal opinion.
A US citizen who is a senior engineer or manager makes somewhere between $120K-$200K, depending upon the company and value of stock options. In the bay area or elsewhere in coastal california, the quality of life that buys you is very much middle class - nothing special house, 2 cars, struggling to put the kids in private school, etc. This is especially true if single or the spouse isn't working, which is more likely to be true for a foreigner. A western educated engineering manager in India can probably afford a nice home, several servants, nice holidays (with vacation time to match), etc. It is hardly surprising that, without the likely return of dotcom millions in the stock option lottery, the lure of their home country has a lot more appeal. Or maybe it is just that all of the engineers who came over in their early to mid twenties during the dotcom boom have now reached maturity, both professionally and personally, and are looking to start a family back at home or take their family home before the kids get too old. If the average age of returning tech workers is into the 30s, that seems somewhat likely. A 36 year old was 22 at the start of the internet boom years, 24 when things really started to take off.
And thank you for saying it!
The new century has been about financial engineering, and destroying real engineering in the U.S.
And we've seen this past year how well Wall Streets' financial engineers have worked out, haven't we?
I was born in Madrid, Spain. As i was 10 my parents changed me to a german high school and after that i went to Germany to study engineering. While I was studying Mechanical Engineering in Aachen I went one year abroad to Montreal. That's when i started realizin.g than maybe North America wasn't as advanced as i thought, But hey, Canada is not the USA. So when I finished and got the opportunity to made my Phd at Berkeley, I took it. Coming from Germany, I've always looked at Berkeley and MIT as "the future". I thought they were light years from us, another dimension, robots walking through the campus... I thought it was going to be like the jump from Spain to Germany...
When I arrived, it didnt took me long to realize how wrong I was. After two years I remember talking with my parents, and saying that at the moment the only thing I wanted was to finish as fast as possible. I just wanted to be able to put Berkeley in my resumee and leave, because I really thought I was waisting my time. I was trying as hard as possible to be productive. But it was not only that my tutor was not good enough, or that my department didn't had the money I needed, the worst part is that we were overall behind what my department in Germany was doing. I felt so frustrated spending 90% of the time reinventing the wheel and putting the USA stamp, feeling that I was leaving in the past, and trying but not finding the way to do something about it that i really wanted to leave and do something useful with my life. It was even worst when I talked with a good friend of mine who was also doing his Phd at the same department in Munich. He got almost unlimited finantiation, lots of students doing their master thesis for him, and was really learning a lot, not only about the subject, but about managing a big reserarch team and lots of long time experiments, we just didn't had the same means...
When I finished it was really easy to find interesting jobs in the states, I even doubted because of one really interesting offer at Lockheed. But the real fact was, that the offers from Germany where at a whole different level. I had been in Berkeley! For them that was... Godlike. As I came back I started working for a private company for almost three years, and after that I took a part-time management position at that company and been working there partime since. At the same time I started also working part-time in my second Phd at the university. Im not only doing what i really like, at the moment Im getting a lot of support from very good people, students included, and from the university, state, privates companies... I really feel that im working with the best people in the world.
And till now i've just mentioned the academic side! The rest of my life can be summarized in: I'm payed better in Europe than in the States and at the same time living here is cheaper! And if you add a better public transport system, higher security feeling, way better health care... it's not hard to understand way researches are not staying there. I know a lot of indian people here, and they have already moved their families in and have no plans to retourn to India in the distant future...
So yeah, people go to the states to study because of the fame. When they arrive, they realize things back home werent so bad as they thought. And when they finish things even get better at home, because due to their studies in the states, they are seen as gods... If you add that the quality of life in the states isn't even in the top10 of the world, and that the loan/expenses ratio is better in lots of other countries, you have your answer.
Keep in mind what you're doing without ever forgetting how you are doing it.
If you were living TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO !!
Now, cattle and rats are as likely SEEN in the streets as people. Bombay makes NYC look like an operating room (not an Indian OR, of course not !!).
But, one reason to like india today: no one does pr0n like indians !!
Or rather, claimed they did.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
another Kennedy assassination.
Are there any of those left?
How exactly is a better world in my interest, if it comes at my expense?
Have you been to a university lately? A significant portion of a university's graduate students will be internationals getting an education at tax payers' expense. Now, I don't find this distasteful in itself, but obviously this foreign talent is displacing some of our own homegrown students, which is arguably bad, considering our government should work to our benefit.
But that aside, many of these students will reap the benefit of an American education without ever repaying it. Many of them will return to their home countries - so long and thanks for the phd!
It's a raw deal for American students, and it's a raw deal for the tax payers footing the bill.
In the end, I have nothing against China or Germany, but I don't speak German, let alone Chinese, and I'm not a citizen of Germany nor China. If America declines, I have little recourse.
Patriotism serves a purpose here. Unless you're willing to learn a new language, adapt to a new culture (possibly with different values concerning individual rights), and leave your friends and family behind, you should be railing against the systematic abuse of our country and its economy.
Historically, America has been the land of opportunity. It was the place people went to to start a completely new life. None of the squalor, starvation, and domestic wars of Europe. None of the harsh totalitarianism of China. Of course, a journey for the family would cost a fortune, so it was only going to be one way.
It's just not like that any more. It's a nice place to live, but so is everywhere else if you have money. Money can be earned if you have experience. And flights are quick and cheap. Even people from relatively poor countries can afford a flight to another continent.
Returning home was always the plan. People miss their home. Returning home after a few years and getting a good job in their home country has always been part of the plan. If you have a few years' experience working at a major US tech firm, everyone wants you to work for them.
look, you know and i know, as does everybody that reads slasdot, that moore's law was moore observing that the transistor density was increasing every two years.
but to the rest of the world, the meaning has warped to say that CPU PERFORMANCE doubles every 18 months. and most slashdot readers are aware of this twisted meaning that encumbers the term.
i shouldn't have used the words "moore's law". my bad.
anyway, my bold claim is: real world CPU performance at the desktop PC level is currently taking 3 to 4 years to double.
i am NOT saying that rate we are cramming the physical bits and pieces on the chips is slowing down. sorry for any confusion.
Dude, that is (and you are, apparently) just SO fucked up on so many levels, I wouldn't know where to begin.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I worked in the US for a few years. So why did I leave?
Of course, everyone says the grass is greener in the US, but compared to home, really it's not - it's just different. But there were enough downsides to being in the USA which made me eventually leave. In order:
1. Family. I would prefer being close to them, 4800 miles isn't close enough. (I now live 10 minutes walk from my Dad).
2. The INS Dehumanization programme - the Kafkaesque manner in which visas and green cards are processed. I just wasn't willing to go through that any more. I hear it's even worse for people from places like India and China, I guess I'm lucky coming from Europe.
3. Healthcare - I like living somewhere where I never need to ever worry about getting healthcare, even if I fall upon bad times.
4. Bigotry and illiberalism - I lived in Texas. Too many religious people, and when I left, also Bush was President.
Don't get me wrong, I think overall the United States is a good country, and one of the best in the world - despite its faults. Any country has faults. But I just wasn't prepared to go through the unpredictable, abitrary and dehumanizing immigration processes to live somewhere that's just as faulty as my home country, but is also 4800 miles from my family.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I don't think that word means what you think it means...
Note to mods: There is no "-1, Disagree" moderation on Slashdot.
That's good to know, and very nice of you to point out, but go eat a dick. I'll use my mod points as I please.
I'm not trolling; I'm stating a very real opinion, and presenting it as such in a very concise way.
I hear you, man! And I even share your outlook- see, I'm not abusing the moderation system; I'm just disagreeing with you, in an even more concise way.
^_^
The bulk of these folks were never 'ours' to begin with. They came here to get educated and OF COURSE to go back to their own countries, of course with stronger dollars to establish themselves back in their own countries with their own families. The only snag this year and thereafter is the weak dollar, but that doesn't matter, it's funny money anyway.
We didn't 'steal' them, we 'borrowed' them.
That's why H1Bs come over here, and then a few years later end up opening 'research offices' in China, India and other places -- with the blessings of multinationals like Microsoft.
But again, there's no 'brain drain' or reverse thereof. These folks are mercenaries, who may have been with, but were never *OF* the United States. The 'war' is over, so they're heading 'home'. There's no reason to stay in the US if there's no $$$ to be made.
There's no sense of home or duty to country because they're not citizens. Despite that, they get all the benefits thereof. What a stupid country the USA is, conferring the benefits of citizenship to *foreign residents*. Who then get to go home and take their jobs with them -- to open up offices to replace US jobs.
When Steve Ballmer threatens to move all of $MSFT overseas if the corp tax rates are raised it's an insult. The bastard's been systematically moving jobs overseas ANYWAY via this so-called 'reverse brain drain', filling his foreign offices. As designed. And other companies like Adobe follow suit.
On the other hand, US citizens who want to work overseas are double taxed on any income over $92K by our wonderful Federal Gov't. US Expats in Japan right now who make what used to be $70K equiv now have tax effects because the USD is toilet paper. The only folks making out now are Japanese residing either here OR in Japan.
No other foreign gov't other than the US confers such a disadvantage on their own citizens, while allowing foriegners to just come in and learn our best tech and then just up and leave.
And if you're a foreigner, why would you want to stick around in such a stupid, contrary country that treats you better than its own citizens?
-Drunken Economist
http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/drunk_economist
So the US gave tons of grants to overseas students, made deals with other nations to send their brightest so they could be educated and molded here for almost free.
While the rest of us have to make student loans and could not get accepted to colleges due to horrid public education and lack of motivation and discipline...which a lot of foreigners had.
Now the US is in shambles, economy sucks, lifestyle here blows compared to other countries... so they leave and this surprises you guys?
I mean seriously, go spend some time overseas and have your eyes opened. This country is all about making each person a freaking worker bee with low pay and many working hats and if you don't like it you are unemployed.
What exactly is so surprising about someone going back home with English, money, education, and experience that will get a high paying job? I mean hell, we probably won't even get a Cost Of Living increase this year while the International market has not completely plummeted like we did due to all the corruption we are always so happy to point out in third world countries.
Writing's on the wall fellas, US needs to start growing its own brains here and cut all this outsourcing crap before we have nothing left to work for.
Too bad I'm an undergrad engineering student and I'm in America. So what country out there really is the best place to work as an engineer? Because I'll learn the language necessary as soon as possible to work there.
Yup, Game over for the U.S.A. soon if this carries on.
The States might bounce back but never as high again.
Sad really, and it can't all be put down to G.W.Bush and his crew... but a lot can - dyed in the wool conservative elites never do well for "their" countries in a time of great change.
Although they have a masters etc they may not actually be all that much brain leaving.
This guy declares 15 degree or higher level qualifications including MSc and PhDs.
But read some of his papers:
http://www.biocab.org/Heat.html
http://www.biocab.org/Pseudoscience2.html
http://www.biocab.org/Cosmic_Rays_Climate_Change.html
One of his best ones has gone missing.
Now if that brain goes back to Mexico, are you REALLY losing a brain or are you gaining space?
This is about foreign people returning to their home countries, that's just a diminishing of the brain drain towards the US. A real reverse brain drain would be if those people returned home AND all the best US born students left the US to study in Europe or Asia.
What about the brain drain in Canada due to the USA?
Or look at it from another perspective, you can argue that the US was a brain drain on China and India (and the largest resource drain on the rest of the world)!
The US is no longer is the land as it was intended by it's founding fathers. The founding fathers must be restless in their graves right now.
Americans who have it so easy now, tend to forget that they also have foreign roots somewhere and that it's because of foreign workers that they have 24/7 availability (Denny's, Gas Stations, convenient stores, etc.). You don't see any American doing such jobs, because they simply don't want to.
It is a shame, because the American concept is truly a great one. It is failing because its population has become greedy and extremely selfish.
They're not leaving because things are that much better at home. They are leaving because having a Ph.D in the valley is not that unique. Furthermore, the culture clash of living in a place where "yes" means "yes" and not also "i don't know" or "no" causes a lot of high-context culture people to lose face all the time in front of their boss... something that in any work environment would lead to unemployment but in the valley leads to your name being mud.
And many people live on the street in NY: NOT EVEN A CAVE!!!
PS the number of poor people in the US exceed the number of people in any european country.
If the rhetoric coming from the fox news right wing in this country is any measure, the answer is 'yes".
You are welcome on my lawn.
US will never revers the brain drain, hell they can not even accept the Metric Measuring System, what fools they are.
"A return ticket home also put their career on steroids. About 10% of the Indians polled had held senior management jobs in the US. That number rose to 44% after they returned home. Among the Chinese, the number rose from 9% in the US to 36% in China."
So how many wouldn't have this opportunity at home if US corporate hadn't been willing to take a chance on them?
This is why people in silicon valley still have no idea what graphene is, while companies in asia are close to commercializing products with it.
I've talked with business people from California, Korea and China. The guys from California were clueless and thought I would just willingly hand over my research for almost nothing. They still don't believe they have competition.
"we're left in the cold because domestic students were passed in favor of these foreign students"
Could be a possibly misleading statement you make there. Could you define how foreign students are favoured over domestic students? Or is it that foreign students get higher grades than domestic students so universities and employers prefer them on grounds of merit?
"Of course, the people running the graduate programs are from these countries..."
Your reference please, or did you just make this up? I'd be happy with a simple statistic: number of people employed on graduate programs, broken down by nationality. That would prove or disprove your hypothesis and inform us of whether this is an argument based on facts or something that you just made up.
In our University, we notice that the overall strength of the graduate student applicants from overseas significantly decreased over the past few years. While we were under the impression to get the best and the brightest from countries like China a few years back, this does not seem to be the case any more. We think this is because many of them now find great opportunities in their countries and don't come here in the first place!
And no, this is not a good thing. Similarly to what was mentioned further above, we would LOVE to admit more U.S. students to our body, however there are simply not enough domestic student applicants who are strong enough to keep our cutting-edge research program going. So when we're no more getting the top foreign students, we are in trouble!
One more thing: there are significant differences in the qualities that U.S. students bring with them compared to foreign students. In China, the students seem to grow up in a very authoritative system, where discipline is very important. That is actually detrimental to out-of-the-box-thinking and creativity. So in this respect, the U.S. students are actually much better, and this is why we would like to have more of them. However, that's only one of the necessary qualities you need. Obviously, you also need a robust background in the sciences, and you need to be really motivated and hard working if you want to succeed in cutting-edge science and research.
My university makes a lot of money charging ridiculous tuition to foreign-born students and thanks to that money they can offer many more scholarships to US-born students. The foreign students are, in effect, subsidizing the American higher education system. That's one reason why we have so many. If you look at how much money flows from developing countries into the US in exchange for us educating their young adults, I bet it would be in the billions. Our education is one of the few products we have left that the world still respects, wants and buys.
Or do they feel less welcome in the culture? Or perhaps their own home cultures are changing to where they feel they can shape them for the better?
Speaking as an immigrant to the US, the only part of the country that ever made me feel unwelcome was the INS. However, China and India have a much better economy now than they used to. It makes sense less PhD graduates will choose to stay here than used to.
-- Support a free market in the field of government
"At will" employment scares me especially since you can be fired without any good reason.
How do European companies handle it when people don't bother to do a good job? How do they handle it when there's a downturn and they can't afford to keep all the people they hired? Or when there's a surge in demand and they need people to work longer hours?
-- Support a free market in the field of government
That would have been the case had W done his part. Per the clinton agreement, in 2002, CHina was to allow their money to be freely traded AND they were to drop trade barriers. Right now, China still controls their money and has 25% tariffs on all goods. To make matters worse, they are purposely discouraging trade. For example, look at pollution control. This is technology that they DO NOT HAVE, but the west is loaded with. But they have 4 TRILLION dollars surplus. China says that they want the west to GIVE THEM THE TECH FOR FREE and will not buy ANY OF THE WESTERN CONTROLS. Lately, they have been stealing the plans for these. It is obvious that they will be selling pollution controls to other nations soon based on those stolen designs.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
How many opened retirement accounts? Married citizens? Became citizens for that matter? Very few who are returning home has been my experience.
Also, I am American, and I will tell you quite frankly that Silicon Valley is the last place in the world I would want to live. It is boring, bland, congested, and expensive as hell. Pretty surroundings tho.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
The US is the greatest place on earth and if you work hard, you can really live a great life.
What life?! When I worked that much, I worked, barely got any exercise, gained 50 lbs, slept, got depressed, blood pressure went up, triglycerides too, and burned out. I had NO social life and I was incredibly lonely. While others were getting married and having kids - I was working.
Great life, indeed!
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Wouldn't it just be a brain drain for the U.S. , and a reverse brain drain for China and India?
Second this brain drain has to been has been going on since '06 or so when the dollar started falling. I guess wasn't sexy enough to be noticed by anyone but world policy rags like Economist and Foreign Policy.
It's not just Indians and Chinese 'sea turtles' going back overseas.... I have no background in China, born a Canadian of European background and spent the past 5 years in Beijing. Found thousands of Canadians and Yanks just like myself living in China. Who are these people? Most are highly ambitious entrepreneurs from good families that are searching for the new wild west, the land of opportunity. They could easily stay and work in the US but some of (maybe lots of) todays youth are not happy working in mega corporations who don't give a shit about their employees, long hours, little recognition/room for advancement, no loyalty, etc...
By many China is seen as the new wild west with new opportunities, challenges, and a sense of adventure that can't be found back home. One billion people where everyone needs new products and ideas. At least that's what the new expats believe. Easy road to riches... but that's not the case. I never met anyone over in Beijing that made a fortune off of China except the expats on big overseas packages. Most small foreign start ups are loosing or breaking even... and as a foreigner in China your chances of success are severely crippled because of your lack of Guanxi.
Benefits of living in China: Cheap cost of living, nice modern apartments with all the amenities (pools, gyms, squash, etc), extremely safe, maids, cooks, drivers, cheap taxis, new restaurants opening every day with fanatical service, rapidly expanding nightlife, modern architecture that puts most US cities to shame, cheap shopping, ability to grab weekend vacation flights around Asia for cheap, holidays like the Chinese new year with all the fireworks are amazing, etc. It is possible to live very well on $1-1500/month. Most foreigners just out of university get by on significantly less. Overall there is a great sense of adventure in daily life, nothing is routine.
Disadvantages: pollution! ...remember some days not being able to see 5 feet in front of my face, most days not being able to see a building 200 feet away... covered in smog. Hard to find quality western groceries. Chinese people are very friendly overall but it takes lots of time to build up connections and guanxi. You can't just go over there and expect to start up the next Google in a year because the locals will shut you out. In Beijing there is little life on the streets except for Wanfujing... central development has left most streets deserted because there's no shops or culture around lots of areas. Old Beijing and the hutongs are disappearing at an alarming rate to put up shiny new skyscrapers. Office culture is a nightmare in terms of productivity. Trying to get anything done that requires innovation is like building the great wall because nobody will stick their neck out and take a chance. Managing most local Chinese people is difficult and requires detailing every aspect of their job, productivity is slow. Government regulations require you to hire so many locals and it is becoming harder to fire non performing people. Office rents can be as high as in the US. Overall I found the overall cost of doing business in China was on par with costs in the US. Also government policies are highly unpredictable and can severely cripple your companies ability to do business. Long terms there are many risks and uncertainties.
Why did I leave China? Got fed up with the quality of life and lack of opportunities in China. Also there was some Chinese government visa changes. When I left about half of my friends were also planning on leaving. Lots of expats were planning on moving their business out of the country to places such as India or finding work in Dubai or elsewhere in Asia.
US is not the land of opportunity it once was. The bush era has left a bad taste in everyones mouth and it will take a long time to get over. Where are all the opportunities in the US if there's no commons (manufacturing, R&D, etc) in things like solar, electric cars, electronics, etc? The US needs to keep these hubs of innovation in the US or the talent will keep going overseas.
New View Media - Custom Website Design
In 1945 we were the economic king of the hill not because we are smarter or more creative (the myth of the non creative asian will be viewed by our children the way we view the idea that woman are tempermentally unsuited to excercise the vote) but because the other guys were down.
Finally the restof the world is catching up; this explains the long term (since the 50s) decline of the american job market (except for the top 1%), the silly idea (obama) that more education and hard work will help (like we are really gonna out word/dollar someone in china)
And it was all planned by Reagan since his youth I guess.
The word both you and the GP are struggling with is détente. And it was no more Reagan's idea than the lightbulb.
"Brain Drain" is a generic term. I don't know who suggested it's a U.S.-only phenomenon, but I would posit they're jingoistic, ignorant fools who have never even stepped foot outside their own country. I would further posit that they're American.
The reverse of brain drain is brain gain. What's being talked about here is the opposite. The term for the opposite of the opposite is the same.
Britain put a gun on China and made them do their will. We will disregard the other issues (civility, legality, etc), and just focus on RAMIFICATIONS. China has spent the majority of their economic gains on THEIR MILITARY over the last decade. In addition, they have focused the majority of that effort on OFFENSIVE weapons, not defensive. Basically, China could not stop a western attack that involved America. BUT, once that looks likely to happen, China WILL ATTACK. Why? They now have the ability to attack our communication and GPS network. In addition, they are in the process of building new military only space stations. That holds ZERO advantage over automated systems EXCEPT for ability to control a weapon. In addition, they are now building new nuclear subs at an extremely high rate. They are spitting out 1-2 new ATTACKS subs AND 1-2 new BOOMERS EACH YEAR. America has 14 boomer capable, but only 10 are in use as such. China appears to now have 8-10 boomers TODAY (with more on the way). In addition, they have restarted their neutron bomb productions combined with regular hydrogen bombs.
What it amounts to, if you put a gun on China today (and only nuclear will work), then China WILL ATTACK. And they CAN WIN or at the least stop the west.
That option is no longer viable. Personally, I am thankful for that. OTH, Chinese leaders are thinking that they CAN win in a nuclear war. That twisted idea is going to cause a new WW.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I live in downtown Seattle and I always drink from the tap. The lady has some damn britta filter and I think she is insane--our tap water tastes just as good, if not better, than what comes out of her filter. Better, it has none of the hassle--replacing the filter (who really does that routinely?), remembering to refill it, etc...
Now LA water or SFO water, that is a different story.
If you live in bumbleskunk, yeah you might find that. You live in a city on one of the coasts, then not so much. It all depends.
These comments are depressing.
It shouldn't surprise me that something so ingrained in our species rears its head all the time, but it always seems unfortunate when it does. Throughout history immigrants, the outsiders, are always marginalized--they have a harder time than anyone else reaping the benefits of their work. I'm not sure why no one sees that the outrageous "International fees" probably offset grants/scholarships that any immigrants might gain for their education. I'm doubtful that the US is so very special to the extent that it went against all human history and for the first time gave immigrants a leg up on citizens. But heck, I'm not offering facts or figures or science now, just intuition, so I'm sure there are plenty who can discredit this post.
Brain Drain has most often referred to the draw the US has had for educated professionals from other countries, particularly Europe and the UK. It was quite pronounced from the late 40s to mid 60s, and I believe our old immigration laws encouraged it. Now it seems to be reversing, not a happy sign. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain
Let's stop pretending that it's the 1400's, globalism means that everybody benefits, not just the local population.
I'm wondering what percentage of the drain began during the Bush administration, when the perception held by foreigners around the world began to be increasingly negative, and as a result if the financial meltdown, which has put a crimp on the American economy. In my previous travels, just about everywhere I went, people talked about their friends and relatives who were in school or working in the United States positively, and often great pride. Now, not so much...
Or more of a Brain return ? Since all the brains came from abroad, as it traditional in the US.
Isn't the US then returning to its natural BRAINLESS TV ZOMBIE state ?
How about trying to educate and raise your OWN generation of intelligent workers ?
Then again, by the time they get out of college the dollar will be worth less than used toilet paper and China and India will be grabbing our programmers, who will be looking to get out of their 2nd world country.
Helped my mate locate to Brussels a few years ago for a weekend hire of a transit van plus ferry cost plus petrol. About £300 I think. Add on another £100 for the flight he took a couple of weeks before to sort out a flat if you like. Plus the beers he bought me, but I was in it for helping my mate and a fun weekend away.
He had to pay a deposit on a flat and buy a few things for his new place but then you have to do this if you move to a new place elsewhere in your own country.
"Native Americans" are foreigners as well, they originally came from Asia, primarily crossing the Siberian land bridge when it existed, although some came from boats as well (some researchers believe that anyway).
In the real world, free markets and free trade are not so idealistically wonderful:
1) there is no free market or free trade. its a farce; an ideal goal that can not be reached (and we should question why it should even be a goal.)
2) nations become test beds on how to best "trade" which undermines both freedom and democracy because they get in the way of the bottom line. At a more abstract level, the nation becomes like a corporation; beholden to the shareholders. "Race to the bottom" etc. The more exploited populations win. The "union" forced by outsourcing to concede it's power on this level would be the citizens of a nation. (In the USA, we hate unions; haven't quite got us to hate the voters but we are partway there as well.)
3) The global market is geared towards research on how to convince people to please the bean counters; who despite raised status are easily replaceable by the system which distributes compassion and morality so they are diffused to the point of being inconsequential; just as has routinely occurred in history on smaller scales. In the USA, we went from dreams of 2000 being a time of robots and 30hr work weeks to people working 45+ a week and raised to be more like robots (actually better, because we need consumers to use the products of production; otherwise, what is the point?)
4) The USA didn't get destroyed in WW1 or WW2. BIG head start. 1st world nations and their banks kept 3rd world nations down and exploited them for their own benefit. It is not as simple as the USA going down; it is the others who are catching up. It was the relative difference that was the main advantage. For the USA to stay in its relatively high position it must force down the others; growth is not infinite - there are REAL WORLD LIMITATIONS. I'm not even considering the barriers to growth we have; that is a side issue.
5) power corrupts. more power, more corrupting influences. Globalized systems which allow groups or individuals more power are bound to cause problems at a higher rate and scale than man has ever seen before. (At least the U.N. is weak; its not much of a threat. There is worse stuff out there.) Do we want globally reaching BANKS that can blackmail the world? We've already seen what semi-global banks have done in the USA... Sure, if we are all heavily interlinked merged economies (and by extension many governments too) there will be less chance for old-style wars. We will still have conflicts and possibly more bloody ones with insurgents and terrorists vs police states instead of waring armies. It is still the similar "civilized vs uncivilized" dynamic; but a 'new' game.
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True, if we as a world become more equitable the USA will go down. The world is overpopulated by about 2/3 and that estimate is for a lower standard of living than the USA in regards to individual net worth. So even with 2/3 gone and equity, the USA goes down. This is on multiple levels; we've all heard the stats about how many more planets we need to continue various forms of growth to more populations (or simply maintain existing levels...)
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You've got to be asleep to believe "The American Dream(TM)".
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Things are getting so bad that even a technology tabloid has to outsource their articles because all of their qualified staff have gone home!
I'd like to say that I am not impressed by most the people that claim some 'more intelligent than you' attitude, as well as their little accomplishments. Too many 'salesmen!'It's time that we EXPORT the dumb Americans too! Than, the real talented people can get to do what they love to do, cool, USEFUL, product development!
Isn't it a little solipsistic to call it a US Brain Drain, when in fact it's more of a Brain Diffusion?
Agreed. Corruption is a fact of life and is something to be managed instead of entirely ridden. It can be greatly reduced by tons of auditing, but there's a point where the cost of tracking, logging, and auditing is more than the cost of the corruption itself. A balance has to be found.
Table-ized A.I.
I don't want my kids to grow up in what, to me, seems like a poisonous atmosphere of stranger hate, militant and religious zealotry, misplaced sense of entitlement, and a "we're the greatest because we're the greatest" view of the world.
Name me a country whose indigenous people (as a whole) DON'T think like this?
Christ! I've been to most countries in Europe, many 'eastern-bloc' countries and some of middle east, at some point you encounter this everywhere. Although in some places you can replace 'religious zealotry' with whichever left/right government you choose to mention.
You think America is bad? Go and try to live in Japan or Saudi Arabia.
I don't know which country you come from, but believe me America has its faults, but it is far, far from a bad place to live and bring up your children.
I live in the UK by the way.
We're making pretty good money and want to pull together a large enough nest egg to allow us to move home, buy a house, and start a business. After that, we'll likely only ever return here to take the kids to Disneyworld
Oh yeah...that kind of sentiment will endear you tremendously to the local populace.
Anybody, who knows anything, about Vivek Wadhwa, knows that he is an industry shill. He is also a turncoat, he used to argue the exact opposit of what he argues now.
And what does he use to back up his specious argument? An Indian think tank? Oh come on now, is there anybody so stupid as to give any credibility to think tanks?
Our visitors came here to learn the new knowledge, they take back only a copy of it. I find myself thinking that the departure of our visitors is not necessarily a bad thing. These men and women from around the planet came here, to our home, to learn. When they take back to their countries the information gained, progress has always occurred in those far away places. I hope that when these people begin to contribute to their communities, that they also brought back with them the ability to use what is available, not what can be barrowed, or begged for. I hope that when these travelers return, that their new found understanding is shared with their community. I also hope that these visitors were intelligent enough to have learned the advanced concept of Accountability.
Americans are avoiding any STEM related career fields because Americans doubt there will be any remunerative work for them in that field.
Why go through all the time, money, and effort, to get a STEM degree, only to train your H1B replacement a few years later? Or have you job offshored? Or have your salary driven down to next-to-nothing because of a labor glut?
The US does not need most of these foreign workers. The US certainly does not need the H1B visa. The US already had the O-1 visa for the truly gifted - why isn't that enough for the H1B hogs?
Anybody follow the news? Anybody read about the tens of thousands of US citizens laid-off from IBM, HP, etc? And there is more to come - lots more. The Oracle-Sun merger will probably bring about several thousand more layoffs for US workers.
And the tech lobbies still hires shills like Wadhwa, and uses fake "think tanks" to convince us that there is a shortage of qualified Americans. It amazes me that anybody is stupid enough to believe that crap.
Question: if there is really a shortage of STEM workers, then why aren't salaries going up?
I`m from Eastern Europe and I worked on an H1B in US for about 2 years (as software engineer), in 2000-2001. The conditions of that visa are very bad and I felt like a serf. So I left for Canada and I got Canadian citizenship in less than 4 years. That was a very good move, considering what US has become since then, The irony is that now I work for a branch of a US company, earn about the same as I would have in US, but all my taxes are paid to Canada. I advise anyone who wants to move to a developed country to consider Canada instead of US (or of Europe which is overcrowded and full of illegals).
It has always confused me that America is willing to bring overseas students and pay for their graduate education at top american institutions but then make it impossible for them to remain in the US after they get their degree. 1) Pay for foreign student graduate degrees 2) Allow them to work in the US Either do both of the above, or none of the above.
"... it's so much easier, and it's the same!"
Having both lived as a foreigner in the US (NC triangle area) and Canada (GTA) I have to take issue with this statement. Canada is much better. No only because of the public health insurance, a far superior public school system and lack of a foreign policy that'll mark my kids as pariahs in some parts of the world. What really stands out on a day to day basis is that so many people here are immigrants and the established communities proudly hung on to their cultural roots. As a result when we visited the Toronto zoo this afternoon my wife, who is American, commented that it was astounding that she heard more froeign languages spoken than English. Multilingualism is fully embraced. For instance in a play area a little boy who previously conversed in Russian with his dad joined my kids on a climbing net and effortlessly switched to English when speaking to us.
In North Carolina people always made me feel uncomfortable when I spoke German to my little boy. Here it is the opposite.
of course planned.
Nobody here thinks that now that we cannot make or build anything anymore (not even cars), that the wealth selling all of those things stayed here, I hope.
The act of moving jobs and manufacturing out of the country is not just good business or free competition, its about destroying the USA ability to remain free and sovereign.
(don't build anything, can't tax anything which means a bankrupt government.)
Which, I would say is mission accomplished.
We have about 5 years before our currency is shit, I figure. Have you looked at the Stock Market? Still up to their old antics, they claim the recession is over.
Oh REALLY? What I want to know is how can the stock market be so great when more and more people lose their jobs everyday to the tune of STILL over half a million every 3 weeks.
You know why?
Because they missed a few of you smart folks that have lots of money and pulled it out of the market last time. They are trying to convince you to go ahead, put it back in there, everything is fine!
That is so when the next crash comes, and it WILL COME shortly, the idiots who put their money back into the market get wiped out. These Wall Street guys think they missed some people, last time around, and want to make sure they get everyone's money.
Which is exactly what they are trying to do, to insure they destroy the middle class. The whole stock market is a ponzy scheme when you think about it because we don't make anything in the country that anybody else wants, that is China's territory.
Even the idiots studying for business degrees to that teach them how to find ever more efficient ways of legally stealing little old ladies pensions, know what the deal is.
I laughed the other day when I went to make a deposit at the bank, and the banker at the window said, oh, someone wants to talk to you from investment services.
I said: "Really?"
I sat and waited and out popped this guy, who said, we have been wanting to talk to customers about a stock who have bank accounts over 20K.
I said: "You know why I have a bank account over 20K?"
he said: "Cause you save!"
I said: "Thats right! So why would I put it into the stock market so you can destroy it like everyone elses?"
I continued I said: "The day the currency in the account is worthless, you do realize what that means right?"
The guy chuckled and said, no, what does that mean?
"Take a look at why people are buying so much ammunition for example. On that day, I would not tell anyone your a banker."
He did not find that amusing, and I really don't care.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
You're missing mental illness. People aren't necessarily drug addicts, but they may be mentally ill. Therefore they are, by definition, not making good life choices. There may be social programmes available for the homeless mentally ill, but they might not take advantage of them.
There's also the possibility of having a series of cataclysmic personal events. Say, a divorce, job loss, and a health issue all simultaneously. If you don't have friends & family on which to fall back, it's conceivable that one would end up homeless. However, in this situation it's hard to see how one would stay homeless for long.
www.clarke.ca
Hello Slashdot, Welcome to 2005: The World is Flat.
Thomas L. Friedman book on this very topic was published in 2005. It is a trend that will continue and probably grow larger and America's prosperity will become increasing tarnished. Why do foreigner workers return home after getting educated at top American Universities? Because they can. With the advent of better telecommunications (America is increasingly one of the worst countries for internet access) and better collaboration platforms, and increased offshoring. Well educated people can increasingly return to their home countries where they not only "fit in" better with people who speak their own native tongue and share their cultural backgrounds, but back home they go from being another small fish to being one of the biggest fishes in their respective ponds.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the United States is headed for a severe shock, the science and technology elite of the United States are aging. And not enough young people are following in their foot steps. We all know the reasons, smart people don't get any respect, scientists and engineers don't get paid the same as TV and sports stars, bank presidents or lawyers, the reasons go on. But it doesn't really matter, the United States is about to go into a long and painful collapse and by the time everyone realizes what happening it'll be 20 years too late to do anything about it (that is it'll take 20 years to educate a new crop of students to replace the people who have retired).
Fanatically anti-fanatical
What the hell does that mean? Is Fox News cloning Kennedys so that they have an unending supply to report on?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Between Homeland Security and treating H1-B's like slave labor, who can blame them? They can go home and enjoy a better lifestyle than they have here and not get treated like a potential terrorist.
That's the employer's response to a lack of enforcement. For what is covered under:
* 20 CFR 655 (Temporary Employment of Aliens In the United States)
* 20 CFR 656 (Labor Certification Process for Permanent Employment of Aliens In the United States)
Citizens get screwed by loopholes, foreign workers get screwed by employer threats, both suffer from the lack of resources to enforce those regulations. Don't be surprised if the party that isn't threatened w/ deportation (US Citizens) complains to high heavens and tries to outright kill the practice.
That was recognized by 2000, well before offshoring took off with more skilled work in 2003.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Unless someone is afraid of being randomly assaulted or imprisoned, then no one cares. It's human nature. Bread and circuses you know? I've been to China. It's not Mao's China, not at all.
Then you'll have no problem expounding upon what happened in Tiananmen Square on June 4th, 1989 without regurgitating the party line right in front of any official in their country.
Secondly, you will have no problem objecting to corruption without any regard to your position or connection or political status.
Oh wait...
Article 51. The exercise by citizens of the People's Republic of China of their freedoms and rights may not infringe upon the interests of the state, of society and of the collective, or upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens.
...that may be a problem since you would be committing offenses against the PRC. Never mind that your death would be efficient and your organs distributed as the Party would see fit.
It's not Mao's China, it's worse.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Yes, stop the knowledge transfers from the USA to its sworn enemies and the rest of the world.
Cut the numbers of student visas by restricting them to the best and brightest, those with IQs above 150, ACT aggregate score above 32, SAT aggregate above 1500 ("new" SAT above 1900, GRE above 1590, or equivalent.
End visa waiver programs, conduct proper background investigations on every visa applicant (and charge the applicant and sponsor the full costs... OK, charities can chip in), track visa holders to make sure they can be escorted out on the day their visas expire. Build the other 7900 miles of border fence and man them with fully-armed militia troops to assist the Border Patrol in repelling invaders and arresting them.
Then cut federal spending on unconstitutional activities like the Department of Educationism (return control of education to people at the local and state levels), non-defense grants, foreign aid (zero fund the UN & WTO, Ex-Im bank, IMF, World Bank, Hamas, Hizbullah, Israel), eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, the Socialist Insecurity Abomination, the Federal Reserve and income extortion. Wait to cut military spending until the Reds are no longer dictators in China.
The current monthly increase in federal debt is many times the total federal spending from the founding up to 1902.
Studies by researchers from Computing Research Association (CRA), Duke, Georgetown University, Harvard, RAND Corporation, Rochester Institute of Technology, Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Stanford, UC Davis, UPenn Wharton School, and Urban Institute, have reported that we have continually been producing far more US citizen STEM (science, tech, engineering, math) workers than we've been employing in these fields.
Examination of employment data and projections from BLS when compared with NCES (US Dept. of Education) records of degrees earned by US citizens confirms these findings.
"As late as 1987, 60K graduates were competing for about 25K open positions, according to Janet Ruhl, author of _The Programmers Survival Guide_" --- Margie Wylie _CNET_ "The skills shortage that isn't: When the rising tide floats employees' boats, employers proclaim disaster" http://news.com.com/2010-1077-281060.html http://www.kermitrose.com/econ1998.html#19980204
In testimony to the House Science and Technology Committee, Harold Salzman reported that we've been producing as many as 3 times the numbers of STEM workers as we've been employing in these fields. http://democrats.science.house.gov/Media/File/Commdocs/hearings/2007/tech/06nov/salzman_testimony.pdf http://www.kermitrose.com/econ200711.html#Runnerup2007
Right. We should stop US tax-victim subsidies to foreign students.
Yes, like copies of how to more precisely navigate in space, like copies of weaknesses of our submarines, like copies of how to more precisely target ballistic missiles, like copies of software we used to design parts for our nuclear weapons systems and toys and power tools and cherry-pickers and cars. And those are just examples of "knowledge transfers" to Red China.
Sheesh! One of my sophomore friends was doing research on whether certain viruses can cause cancer (several have now been found). A junior was working on a US-wide water quality index. Others were crunching budgets for the state department of education, porting statistical packages, pioneering dead-start from disk, document management systems, examining the roles and levels of related enzymes in mitochondria from different species, teaching classes in various computer programming tools, developing testing systems for avionics.
If you give US citizen students opportunities to do interesting work, they will be able to handle it... especially if you pay them decently enough for them to "work their ways through" rather than relying on federal hand-outs and loans.
They'll be back by their 40s.
1789 Spring, they started cultivating the Little Miami "bottoms", taking turns, with half standing guard with rifle while half prepared the land and planted. Turkey Bottom, about 1 square mile, along the Little Miami had already been cultivated by the Amerindians, and supplied grain for Fort Washington and Columbia, supposedly yielded 963 bushels in the first season. Before that they harvested the "bulbous roots of the bear grass", boiled, washed and dried them, then made flour.
pg 46 (67 in pdf)
"First, the squatter, or man who 'sets himself down' upon land which is not his own, and for which he pays nothing; cultivates to a sufficient extent to supply himslef and family with the necessaries of life; remains until he is dissatisfied with his choice, had realized a sufficiency to become a land-owner, or is expelled by the real proprietor.
Second, the small farmer who had recently immigrated, had barely sufficient to pay the first installment for his 80 or 160 acres of $2 land; cultivates, or what he calls improves, 10 to 30 acres; raises a sufficient 'feed' for his family; has the females of it employed in making or patching the wretched clothing of the whole domestic circle; is in a condition which, if compelled by legislative acts, or by external force to endure, would be considered truly wretched; but from being his own master, having made his own choice, from the having 'no one to make him afraid', joined with the consciousness that, though slowly, he is regularly advancing towards wealth; the breath of complaint is seldom heard to escape from his lips.
Third, the wealth or 'strong-handed' farmer, who owns from five to twelve hundred acres, has one-fourth to one third under cultivation, of a kind much superior to the former; raises live stock for the home and Atlantic city market; sends beef, pork, cheese, lard, and butter to New Orleans; is perhaps a legislator, at any rate a squire (magistrate); is always a man of plain businesslike sense, though not in posession, nor desirous of a very cultivated intellect; understands his own interest, and that of his country; lives in sufficient affluence, and is possessed of comfort; but, in conclusion, and a most important conclusion it is, the majority of this class of men were, 10 or 15 years ago, inhabitants of the eastern states, and not worth, upon their arrival in Ohio, $20."
It took a month to get from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh by wagon, and nearly another month to get from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati by flat-boat, it took 5-6 days to ship goods down river from Dayton to Cincinnati. Local products were shipped down the Ohio and Mississippi to Spain-controlled New Orleans, where the goods could be confiscated, were always heavily taxed, and shipment might be delayed so long that the goods spoiled.
So, people are willing to undergo great risk and hardship, if, if they think they have a fair and decent chance to get ahead, and not have the value they create stolen, robbed, extorted, etc. This is regardless of whether they're Indian or Scottish or Chinese or English or Shawnee or German or Hutu or Turk or Tutsi or Swiss or Japanese.
There was a time when the Technion had a good reputation, but the reputation out-lasted the reality by a decade or so.
MIT's still fairly good, but not way ahead of Georgia Tech or the University of Cincinnati, especially since they stopped admitting based on merit. I ran across articles in the last couple years of people with the highest possible standardized test scores, top class standing, etc., who were rejected for, uhhh, what's the buzz-word?, purposes of increasing diversity.
Harvard long had a good reputation in medicine and law and "bidness", but have thrown most of that away.
In the 1700s most of ye ancestors came just after attending or went back to attend Oxford, Cambridge or Edinburgh, but the Log College had already started having quaint little spin-offs like Princeton and by the early 1800s, Miami U.
According to Wikipedia, the oldest universities started around the year 825CE (4586 in the Hebrew calendar).
The reverse brain-drain isn't limited to foreign students returning home. I'm a PhD student working in a specialized area of network security. I held a number of high-profile industry positions in the SFBA prior to being recruited by a European university, to work as a paid researcher in a well-respected lab, with a PhD as a bonus. After four years of living here in Western Europe, I have come to realize that the quality of life (affordable education, social services, health care, employee rights, low cost of living) coupled with the excellent career opportunities (as good or better than equivalent options for someone of my level of experience, education, and credentials in the USA) make staying in Europe a no-brainer for me.
Of course, the change in culture is not for everyone, but I expect the US to face increasing international challenges to its technological superiority in the years to come, unless significant social policy changes occur.
Seconded. This fraud is an indian I bet. Seen hundreds of posts such as this.
The reality is that India is still a hellhole.
I was replying to the poster who asked if there were any Kennedy assassinations left.
On further review, I see that he may have meant to ask if there were any Kennedys left.
My reply was meant to assert that the heated rhetoric from the Right could very well create a situation of another Kennedy assassination, where shadowy groups put up a ideological stooge to do the deed.
Because he was going to disclose UFO visits. Or something.
Either way, Fox News is hyper-partisan. The aggregate news media over the last 40 years may have leaned Left (but most long-term studies have shown not), but their partisanship was nowhere near as radical or as openly displayed as Fox News. In fact,partisanship among the "MSM" networks was assiduously avoided. Fox News is much more of a agenda-driven political actor than any of the other news networks have been in the post-WWII period. I have no problem with their existence, as long as nobody asserts that they are a news network, and their programming is properly treated as GOP campaign funding.
I hope that clarifies, friend.
You are welcome on my lawn.
There are many causes, but the reasons are not technical, but social. USA has a love of dollars and a love of technology, which results in dehumanizing people. The buck is the real god, and the impact or collateral damage to employees is part of the game. Almost every civilized country has medicare. Workers who lose jobs soon lose health insurance, and the consequences are disasterous. The USA work ethic is to be on call with iphone or BlackBerry, 24/7. Life with spouse, parents or family does not exist because of "must meet the directors bottom line or my job is gone" feelings. I cannot be a parent because of demands of work, ergo, I cannot be a spouse and therefore it is OK if the divorce rate is 52%+. By returning home, one returns to a 40 hour week, to socialized medicine, to family life, to time to nurture a marriage and to raise kids by being part of their lives. Yes, there are technology jobs outside of the USA, and another reason why they are there is the export of manufacturing to these countries. First you export the manufacturing and jobs. The salaried employees earn enough to send their kids to university, an impossibility in the past. Then these same graduates visit the USA to see if the grass is greener, and it is not, so they return home. There are two words to know in American english. Money and Divorce I wish I was not so negative about American life. Do you think the root cause was Regan Economics?
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
"Maybe we take our vacation in a different form. Consider the american pre-occupation with big houses, nice cars, giant televisions, etc. These are all little mini-vacations that we experience everyday."
Europeans (and we immigrants) get all those "mini vacations" and then 3, 4 or 5 weeks of holiday a year (depending on the country).
There is no way to give the US labour arrangements a positive spin.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If people don't do a good job their receive a caution, there is a documented history that shows incompetence, until finally enough evidence is gathered and the person in question is fired.
In the UK is much simpler, in Germany employees representatives (not necessarily unions) may be involved.
When there is a downturn companies can fire people, but they have to do it in agreement with the employees and depending on how many people is necessary to dismiss, the company has to follow certain steps to do it properly, with several rounds of consultation.
If there is a surge in demand and people need to work longer hours people are either paid (just imagine, what a concept) or may have agreed to do so contractually, but you can't be forced, you have to agree to it. If you decide to abide by the EU working time directive (in the UK) then you can agree to work more than 48 hours per week, but in principle it is you agreeing to it, not your employer forcing you (some employers try to force you to sign, but if people know their rights there is no power that can force you to sign, and firing you for not signing is illegal).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you don't have objective proof of somebody performing poorly, why should you be able to endanger that person's living?
In any case, nowadays any company worth its salt has performance appraisals, that way people that could do better are offered the carrot of bonuses and raises
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... that somebody in the position to go to Canada, Singapore, India or elsewhere would accept to earn a substandard wage?
It is time that people like you, that clearly know nothing about working internationally, get a big clue stick.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.