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First LPI Certification Exam
Linegod writes "
The Linux Professional Institute (LPI) today announced the immediate availability of the first exam in its Linux Certification Program. The exam, which covers Linux basics as part of the program's first level, is now available worldwide at testing centers affiliated with Virtual University Enterprises
" There's a lot of people currently competing to be "the standard", ranging from the different distros to people like this - what do you folks think?
Redhat!=standard
If there is any distro that is not standard its redhat.......
If you look at all off them Slackware is (to my knowledge) the only distro that tries to be as 'standard unix' as possible....
Red Hat doesn't even use 'standard' tar.gz packages......
The list of topics covered by the exam seemed
generally reasonable, but I would very much
like to see a sample exam because these topics
can be covered at many levels of difficulty.
For instance, command line text processing can
get very tricky with complex regexps. And I
have never used sed - I survive with grep, etc.
...where we plunk you down in front of a box that has been creatively tampered with, and tell you:
"Here, this system is acting funny. Find out why - and it's production-critical, so no rebooting!"
...and then see what you do. Fix the problem, get the job.
The only test that counts is the one you get at your job interview, kiddies.
Depends. Do they hand out beer at the test site?
but if it's a good thing (tm) why are you reserving judgement?
the rh cert test is a practical one. there is something to be said for getting a machine and told to have it do something that it does not do. even experienced people bomb on this.
ok, there is also a multi-guess part, but the real meat imo is the practical.
you want certification baby?
COMP.ENG UNIVERISTY OF WATERLOO.
how you like 'dem apples?
-r.
As I read the test center docs from VUE, you can only Linux test on Win9x machines. Looks like you need to be an MCP to be the administrator of a center, too. I guess that cuts down on the alt&F2/man cheats...
At the ACM Retirement home in Guelph, Ontario, we only wish that such professional certification had been available to software and electronics engineers in decades past!! Now all we can do is sit around and eat Popsicles!!!! (And watch Fantastic Voyage on television! That is exciting!)
I remember seeing something on linux.com and freshmeat.net last week that this was a beta exam.
I don't know exactly why, never having done the course myself, but every MSCE we ever hired was ruined as a systems engineer.
No troubleshooting skills. No initiative to look beyond the obvious. No willingness to hack. But a hell of a lot of "reboot - still not working? - reinstall the OS"
Ack!
Industriousness is not in of itself a virtue. When coupled to stupidity, industriousness can be very dangerous. Sometimes, it's far better to be clever and lazy.
They are qualified to develop Linux SA exams that have real-world significance, but they don't have a site that can withstand a little Slashdotting? Interesting... Just a thought. Pretending you have a .sig is cool.
Great, I can spend another $120 or whatever and get another useless peice of paper, making one company richer, me even stupider (yet APPEARING to be smarter) and letting a whole new crop of utterly moronic paper wielders into the industry. Certs don't mean sh#@...2 minutes interviewing a candidate will prove whether they have their act together or not. Unfortunatly, as I see with the majority of other certs, they usually do not. Just a ploy to get more cash into somebody's pocket imo.
It's not the degrees and probably not even the certificates you have, it's how well you bullshit (I'm no good at it). If you can extrude better BS by having a certificate, get one. If not then don't bother.
man, I think you need an enema. take it down a thousand. it'll get better.
Ah, certs make such nice wall hangings. The only one that means anything is CCIE. I've been giving up my entire life so I can get closer to CCIE. Give me another year or two and I'm there. But generally, certs just sound good to those who don't know. Of course, those who don't know are generally the ones signing the checks.
So they are going to have a Linux cert? Give me 2 weeks of mindless memorizing, errrr..I mean studying, and it's mine
Cheers!
Forget Linux specific certifications for a second. I'm wondering about general Unix certifications. I know Sun has a couple, as does SCO. I'm looking for one that is the most thorough, and also is useful in pan-*nix environments. Comments?
...its hipocritical. When I go to work in Open Source systems, I will never have to be original, i will never have to be innovative. I will look at other peoples answers and copy. If something is closed I will moan and whine and blame my inability to cope on the "stifling" effect of that closed product.
Why should the tests be any different? Linux is about letting the many ride the backs of the few and act like we're able to do something we damn well know we couldn't do in a million years. But we get to take credit there, we should get to take credit here. Give the test to Linus and let me see his answer sheet, then I'll take your test to get certified for the job that I can't wait to take but will refuse to be paid for.
E.
May you all follow your philosophies to their logical concluision.
So do we need some standards for all the new standards? I think this is mostly to get you hired by a phb....
www.syngress.com/Marketing/red_hat_linux.htm
"Window manager configuration files for the fvwm2 window manager are stored in which directory?"
Check out the possible answers and then check out their answer. Pay particular attention to the letter AND the answer.
Also, would somebody please slap their web designer? Their site needs some SERIOUS work.
Well, *BSD users have that little demon guy. And Linux has the satanic penguin effigy depicting Tux brutalizing the dead skull of Bill Gates.
Do you know where yo' booty is?
here here. script exams.
Anybody who lists popular OS certifications with their job qualifications without a cynical comment indicating that they were forced to take the classes by a previous employeer probably isn't qualified for the job they're applying for.
Friends I'll remind you there is nothing like a good college education. For those hackers not so inclined??? there are still ways to prove your abilities and get paid a decent wage, but in many instances you'll likely get to play the pimp/whore game like the microsloth action figures.. enjoy, well thats bad.. education/training in any form is a good thing, these certiications are a joke though, sorry!!! short term memory != problem solving skills
Even though they tried to make it non-distribution dependant, they go too far in catering to the lowest common denominator. I myself like to use Pico, but I will never find it in a standard Debian distribution, therefore it will not be found on the test, and I must learn ed and vi to pass those portions of the test.
Is this what they mean by trying to 'make it fair'? I think we need to focus on which distribution we like, and get certified in that.
I went to MCSE (the correct spelling) bootcamp at work took 5 days and I am an MCSE. The MCSE is a joke - the only thing I learned was that MS is all screwed up when it comes to TCP/IP - the loose 2 networks per subnet just like bits in a subnet so in a MCSE world 255.255.255.128 is useless. My 2cents.
Well, considering that recently my company hired an engineer who passed their "interview process", and got a $6,000 sign-on bonus.
They then found out he had previous drug convictions (selling & possession). He wound up going to site, getting in a high-speed police chase, nearly hitting an officer, and got busted. Needless to say he's spending a lot of time in jail.
Now where is this going, he lied and bullshitted in his interview to get the job. If the company is desparate enough to hire, they may believe anything they hear. There is a shortage of good engineers out there, and yes this is one more way to show you do have 1/2 of a clue. I think it's a little harder to say you have been certified, and not have anything, over saying "I'm a home hacker, not certified, but better than any certified engineer".
It's not my rules, but it seems to be the PHB's way of the future...
I'm not convinced Linus Tovalds is qualified to work on this OS anymore, or Alan Cox for that matter. Neither one appears to have been certified by anyone.
The standards are all the pieces that individually make the different distributions not any one distribution.
well, for one, you pluralize into "standards". The point of having a standard is to have something to measure by. Whether it's the threshold that everyone has to surpass or the level of which everyone tries to be at doesn't matter. It's just a measuring stick. I place my vote with having RedHat as the standard because it's more common and pretty cohesive as a single package.
So what happens if RedHat is the standard for passing getting the Linux certification? Then you would have someone who knows his shiznit about the "greatest common denominator" of Linux. Which is a good start. Perhaps there should be a "Basic Linux" certificate, and then other specialization certificates to separate the newbie from the wizard.
In my humble opinion certifications are useless. Does Linus have, or need, a certification? Certs are just a scheme for companies to take shloads of money from wannabe admins.
I think it would be a good thing if RedHat became a monopoly. Then they could go one on one with M$.
"Open Source is not about copying other people's work. It is about building on what has been done and made publically availablle so you can do more." It seems more like: "Look at this cool product that someone took the time to invent. We have coding skills, let's make one just like it so we don't have to pay. Since the design is done, we only have to implement."
needs independant consultants to design, develope, and maintain. An investment in a TEST (for crying out loud!) will indenture the systems engineer to that which he invested in. Linux is cool 'cause I (and others like me) figured out how to do it, some by ourselves, some with help from a community. Standardize THAT and I'll eat penguin!
No I do not use lubricating Hobbits. I find that they shed too much. That's why I only use shaved female lubricating midgets.
Shut up.
Shut up, peckerwood.
Snoop Dog?? Save your gangsta quotes for your ghetto buddies, loser :-P
I would feel sorry for anyone who actually feels the need to take a Linux certification exam....
OK guys, what picture are you talking about? Link, please... Thanks.
I rember takeing open book tests at school and seeing quit a few people fail them. It comes down to how much you have put into it. "Garbage in, Garbage out"
If there are to be tests they need to be
/doc directory of a full RH 4.2
tested and verified by a qualified non-profit
group. I nominate the GNU software foundation
as they seem to have written most of the tools
found in a linux distro. Anyway...
I started Linux in 95'. By 96' I'd been drawn
into it so deeply I started cutting class so I
could chat with my buddies on #linux and setup
things on my machine. By 97' I'd been expelled
from college for attendance problems and was
still being sucked in further...My god, it was
like the penny that never lost it's shine butI was unemployed and could no longer afford cigarettes..
I found that I could forget about my nicotine withdrawal when I was reading technical
documentation. Pretty soon I'd read every
document in the
install (yes! 6 cd's!). The 6 months after that
were just a blur of fruitless job searches
(no certs, fuck off!)
And then my computer burned up and I was
broke, unemployed and computerless....Stroke
of luck landed me a helpdesk job and at that
point I no longer had time to indulge in my
linux(hobby/habit) and I chilled out for
awhile with the Linux. I had been hoping to
become a "Unix apprentice" whatever that
is. But I would just get snubbed upon mentioning
Linux. So I waited patiently while the MCSE's
strutted around like vain rockstars in the
systems department where I worked.
Flash forward a couple years and I sit
here with 2 linux jobs under my belt, watching
this stuff brew and bubble. The past few years
I've learned a lot, been bitter over hiring
practices in the IT field and have grown a little
older.
We wanted revolution and from where I sit,
it is getting ready to explode all over the place.
I can feel it! It's in the nervousness of the MSCE's like dogs barking before an earthquake,
in the staffing companies who are suddenly trying
to be "hip" with the Linux communities, it's in
the VC firms and stock market where people
absolutly drool over any word with the letters
L and X in them.
My friends prepare for the ride of your lives
as the revoluition has arrived. If you're anything
like me, the ride's been a little bumpy but
it's been a helluva trip so far.
Things will get crazier than this certification stuff, you can count on it.
Brace yourself and don't sign evil contracts! We will be in demand and
the staffing co's will sneak all kinds of things
in a contract to enhance their fscking abilities.
Before getting worried about certified
no-nothings getting the jobs, consider your
own experience and hard work over the years.
Nothing can compare to that.
Sorry about the rant, drank too much coffee
too fast.
hey, I thought they shut you down when that poster reported you to road runner. oh, that's right...they reported you after business hours. you'll be shut down once they notify your mom.
if you want to see a good troll, check out the school house troll in this article. at least that shit is funny. you're just a gay boy.
see ya fag.
Hmmm. Take a song/story/whatever and plug some Slashdot terms into it. Funny. Ha-ha. Go away now, you smell bad.
The fact is that Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox or all other programmers doesn't need to be certified. They have experience. Lot's of experiences.
Seriously, anyone who gets certs is a big fucking dork. If you can't show that you're smart and know what you're talking about in an interview, you are unqualified.
Look at which tests you have to take to get a certification. Just like MCSE you only choose a few exams and combine them into certification levels.
Hmmm. Take a linux kernel and plug some distribution specific stuff into it. cool.
I'd say our troller is a practitioner of Open Source methodology ! He's building on something that already works !! And he's benefiting everyone !!!
Sounds like someone is jealous.
That's odd. I'm an MCSE and I detest Microsoft products. Am I still a drone?
But not for a real wizard.
I have yet to meet anyone who I regard as a highly skilled wizard who was certified. Certification is an instant flag that you don't have enough paid experience to qualify as a real tech. And so you fake it with being "certified".
Some of us even use BeOS. And I think Bill knows :-)
No. It's someone sick of seeing these trolls all over the place. They've increased to the point it's almost pointless to read here. It's long past time to revoke anonymous access. As far "Open Source methodology" - get a life.
...who we don't intend to hire.
That's not a troll, that's a fact. In this shop, MSCE == no job.
Take a look for yourself;
Frequently-Asked Questions
Overview of exam
T1A Exam Objectives (test outline)
More books and More testing I need to PROVE my REAL abilities. Like what I'm doing now and for the past 2 years isn't good enough to get hired!
-Oy Vey
Brainbench, formerly tekmetrics is a free site that hands out certifications on a number of computer related subjects (they were free the last time I checked, but then again they were also known as tekmetrics...). I would definately reccomend the Linux one for someone just starting out. OTOH some personal experiences from my roomate would make me reccomend *not* getting involved in proofreading their tests if they ask you to...
Now what are those people going to do who stopped using distributions with 0.99.10 ? Exactly, they are going to lose -- no nice piece of paper.
Anyway -- a certification programme should be as neutral as possible. Now $100 for an 1a, one and a half hour -- not even enough to explain the differences between tar and cpio, not to mention to tell people how to set up a failsafe init installation -- if there still is an init at all.
Yes, tounge in the cheek and such as I am afraid it is going to be like with so many courses. A lot of crap -- but the really good ones are worth it.
I do not think any certification programme is worth three cheers, at least not before having had more than one very close look. You will have to pay real money for it so you deserve a real value too.
Happy hacking
> Looking through Brainbench's list of
/.'er called them :) of geeks in the middle of a very conservative suit-laden place. HR doesn't know how to find people that fit what we do, and these tests can give us an idea if we have someone that has the right mindset.
> certifications that they offer, I noticed that
> they offered a Linux Administrator offering.
As an aside, Brainbench certs are free. I believe they make their money by charging headhunters to scan their database.
I've taken a number of their tests, and while they are most definitely *not* comprehensive (like, 30 or 40 questions), they are fairly hard, and seem to cover a decent amount of subject matter. Our department is actually going to be using the Perl test there as part of our hiring process. Note, I say *part*. The important part isn't necessarily how they scored, but how willing they are to learn, and how they come off in an interview.
Our area is a bunch (or cluster, as another
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
You CANNOT install RedHat without installing X-windows
So I'm a freaking mage. I've installed a lot of RH's without even launching X once. What the heck do you need X on server, is it an NT or what?
Jou just get and RTFM a bit, and then RTFM a bit more, and the know that rpm works without X and vi works without X too.
And you *can* upgrade from 5.2 to 6.x. I did it. Not that you really need it if you have working server. Not that you need sendmail either - name me one security hole in qmail? qmail is 1.03 and working and sendmail is 8.9.x and still broken. See it?
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Actually, I believe there are quite a few certification-style licensing tests where the questions are available. IIRC (I might not) the tests for your pilot's license, ham radio license, and probably others have a large pool of public questions from which a sample is drawn.
Here is a detailed list of subject matter for the 1A test. They might as well give you the answers.
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
what do source RPM's expand to? usually a gzipped tarball.
No, they expand to 1 or more gzipped tarballs, patches, and a "spec" file with build options for various platforms plus other descriptive information. There's a difference.
As for binary stuff, a gzipped tarball is not a package. It is a compressed archive of files, but it lacks the metadata contained in an RPM package (install scripts, dependencies, author info, installation-directory relocation, etc). Yes, it is possible to put this metadata into a tarball by adding "magic" files that don't actually get installed, but I personally feel the RPM approach is cleaner.
It's convenient. It's reasonably well designed. It's free, open, and documented (www.rpm.org). I happen to like RPM.
There is no need for an exam to certify that you are a Kernel hacker. To qualify you should have code with your name on it in the kernel. :-)
...richie - It is a good day to code.
advanced programming indeed ;-), I resemble that remark ...
there are two kinds of people in this world - those who divide people into two groups and those who don't
I personally support them for this reason. I believe it is good to have a professional orientation when programming for a living. If LPI can provide some validation, the community will benefit in the long term.
Again, I hope the standardization process grows with their presence.
As a person who actually tried RPG, I agree with you. I also would like to see how an Open Source community would tackle the challenge. It would be nice if this certification becomes a badge of honor that is sought out ;-)
I suppose this is good, for people looking to clinch linux-related jobs and employers who want little pieces of paper that can give them warm fuzzies about hiring you. I hope that the certification actually indicates proficiency, but given the exams i've taken in life I somehow doubt it.
The greater issue though is how this affects the linux job market. If somehow this certification becomes a requirement for employment, and only one company gives out the certification that employers want, then that company can charge arbitrary amounts for the certification and basically turn it into a MSCE situation - a way to get lots of money for little work and distribute warm fuzzies among hiring managers without actually proving much of anything about the person who shelled out the bucks for the exam other than that they shelled out the bucks.
This, of course, would be bad.
The enemies of Democracy are
I'm afraid you've missed the point. And by a lot, at that.
How you can compare Open Source apps/programming with certification testing is beyond me. There is a sound, logical reason behind sharing source code-- in the end, you have a more solid application. Open Source programming has become so popular because it works.
So, going with this notion, we should open-source tests! Give everyone the answers! Come on, man, use your head! The purpose of a test is to test and show what you do and do not know (more or less). But once we give away the answers, we've defeated that purpose.
See the problems with your asinine comments? Open-sourcing is a great solution-- to programming. But, obviously not to certification.
I think you missed the point by a longshot not only on this issue, but it seems like many, many more.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
Does anyone have any thoughts on what a Linux admin would gain by having his/her RHCE (RedHat Certified Engineer)?
Certificates give PHB types warm, fuzzy feelings inside. Back in my Netware days, I worked with many a CNE who the boss touted as our new "NetWare expert" but had never actually touched a NetWare console until I walked them through it. So there I sat with 6 years experience, but the guy who had done nothing but read a book and take a test was the one the boss saw as the expert.
So, in a nutshell, certification won't do a thing about making you a better technician, but it will, in many situations, help get you better jobs.
I used to be opposed to certifications, but the way I look at it now is: I know I'm a good technician, my peers know I'm a good technician, if some little certificate will make my boss acknowledge it as well (and reflect it in my paycheck), so be it.
Our LUG is now officially supporting the vendor independent LPI certifications. We had a record number of listeners to the IceCast of last nights meeting which covered the test.
I have also started a project site at our LUG website to support members who want to get certified. Hereis the URL: http://www.mlinux.org/projects/cer tified/lpi117/. It includes a FAQ about the test from my perspective and a list of resources to study. As other members take the test I will add their points of view to the FAQ as well.
Thanks!
Tony Awtrey
My God! It's full of Voids!
even better: what do source RPM's expand to? usually a gzipped tarball. oiy:)
-rozzin.
I consider myself proficient at GNU/Linux. :-/ I have a lot to learn.
Looking at what you need for level one certification daunts me.
> In short, yeah, it's perfectly valid to learn
> by book... but there is really no substitute
> for experience and trial by fire.
Hehe - wish I had a dime for every time I've wanted to set The Book on fire & lob it at one of the MCSE/CNA/whatever at work who couldn't ping localhost if their lives depended on it...
"Fear is the rootkit of democracy.." Blarkon
These make for interesting ramifications for an open operating system.
What distro keeps the init.d directory in /sbin? Not RedHat at least. And an rc.d directory just helps clean up that messy /etc. Altough, you are right in that upgrading from one dist to the next is a bit harder (But not impossible. Just insert a (Net-)boot disk and reboot. Select "upgrade" on the menu, if I recall correct) on RedHat. Anyway, over to the init-thingies: At least you are not using Slaskware, with its broken BSD init (It is not a real BSD init for several reasons, resulting in much dirtier init scripts). And as a last notice - Debian's SysV-init does not have any standardizd means for services to return their status (OK, Failed, Passed). This is a crusial fact that is the single reason besides from that I don't own one more computer to run Debian on, that I haven't ported Aurora to Debian yet...
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Then I have to ask exactly how many CNE/CNA's you've ever met.
Normally I don't respond to these comments either, as they fall under the category "flamebait", but yours, trance9, hit a nerve. Although I no longer train, I have a CNI certification and worked in an NAEC for almost two years. During that time, I trained dozens of people from their beginning as a CNA through to their CNE, and I can tell you that not one who made it through my classes was clueless. And neither am I.
As for the LPI cert, yes, I think it's a great idea. And yes, I plan to get it. I'm a Linux-newbie, working to gain more than a base-level understanding of the OS and trying to teach myself programming. Difficult to do while you're holding down a day job and supporting a family, but I work on it in my spare moments. And I'm sure that someone out there would look at the small Linux deployment in my office and pronounce me "clueless" for some fault or another.
The LPI cert will provide for me a framework to do my studies, a floorplan to build on. In the absence of any formalized training program, and lacking any mentor I can call on at need, it's the best option for me. And yes, once I get enough knowledge and skill under my belt, I plan to approach the training center I formerly worked for, and see if they want to offer classes based on the LPI program.
Like it or not, certifications are a fact of business life. Non-IT people, who typically hold the purse-strings for personnel, look for these metrics. And as Linux gains in acceptance, qualified people are going to be in demand. We all know that "certification qualification", but without test-driving every candidate for an admin job, a cert at least means that the person knew enough to pass the test, which is more than you can say for someone off the street.
Believe nothing, not even if I say it, if it violates your sense of reason -- Buddha
Seriously, I wish Linus would ask everyone using the name "Linux" to ask his permission--I'm worried that the trademark will lose any legal value.
I think most of the posts are really missing the point.
Discrediting the general genre of certifications is one thing. I can accept that this type of debate will never be over. This is not unique to Linux, computers or IT. It applies to any professional industry. CPA;accounting etc...
The real significance is the recognition that this is a useful thing. I think this is a good thing for the Linux community. It may or may not fully creditentialize an individual, but its another step towards creditentializing Linux in the professional IT world. Realize that this is mostly a step for HR and upper management.
1500 is not that expensive compared to the average Microsoft certification, at least here in Canada. A friend of mine is doing MSCE. And, I'm sure you don't have to do all the distribution-specific exams. Surely one or two would suffice.
I would be interested in doing tests like this, not because I think I couldn't learn it on my own, but because the tests would make sure I didn't miss anything.
A lot of people here are talking about "learning it on your own", and I fully support that - it's how I learned almost everything I use on a day to day basis (a Msc in computer science doesn't actually get you too far actually _programming_) But... when you learn on your own you sometimes miss things. You can get wrong ideas about how things work that perhaps wouldn't be corrected by small at-home network experiments, or the FAQs.
It's hard to cover every little area with self-directed study. I think a combination is best: some courses, or at least some really good books to provide an overview of all the areas and subjects worth knowing and some basic facts. Then lots of experimentation and digging through the documents and code to really, really understand it deeply.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
Mirror of the Exam 1a objectives. http://www.zerosanity.com/obj-t1a.html
-- The intelligence on this planet is a constant, but the population is growing. --
brought to you by the greatest troller on slash
You know, he may just be...
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
The Melbourne that he refers to is, in fact, Melbourne Florida, not Melbourne Australia (my home town). :-)
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
Being certified does not mean that you have to be clueless. I know several MCSEs and (M)CNEs that are very clued. All of them, however, have been working in the business for many years and all of them have in-depth experience in 2+ operating systems.
On the other hand, it is true that you can read yourself to an MCSE and still be unable to handle, or even start to debug, a real-world problem.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
Concepts, general Unix/GNU stuff, general Linux stuff (LSB++), and pick-atleast-one-distro details stuff.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
I was thinking more along the lines of a certified kernel hacker as someone who a company would hire if they wanted to port Linux or FreeBSD to the Rolex or something.
While being among the top 10 contributors to the linux kernel is definitely certification enough to many of us, there's only 10 people in the top 10 whereas there may be many more with such talent out there if they could get a piece of paper to say so and make money off of it.
Well, maybe not good. But it's better than Redhat's Certification program. Why? Well, all you have do is it take the test ($100) at any Vue testing center (across the nation). This is in stark contrast to RedHat's method (at least when it was first introduced -- I'm sure it's been made friendlier since then. But basically it said: "give redhat a lot of money, and come to North Carolina"). Nothing against RedHat, but, well, this is a more "attainable" certification. And a lot of people see certifications as a good way to better their chances of getting a job. If nothing else, it can make up for your years of using linux at home, but not on the job. How can you have linux experience at work when there weren't many jobs until recently? Well, at least you can use your existing linux experience to make taking the test easy, and say "I'm certified" which is better than nothing.
--- Where's my X.400 protocol decoder?
I agree that short term memory != problem solving skills (especially in the MCSE arena), and that most certs are worth the paper they're printed on. (of course, BS!=problem solving skills as well, until you throw some experience at it). As a sample of just one of the problems, consider the test that asks where to find a config file for whatever. As not all distros follow the LSB/FSSTND, aren't we better off just having a clue as to the filename and how to use find(1)? A good cert should reflect knowledge of what tools are available and their use in unpredictable situations rather than rote memorization of a default box setup. The only cert I've seen out there that grabs any respect from me is the CCIE, and unless they've changed it recently you won't get there by memorizing a study guide.
You know, you are part right, but dead wrong too.
People who pass tests are like people who frag level 7 in "bring em on" mode. Sure there not the king of the clan, but they do know the game.
Most tests have too little variation, or are just too damn easy. Brain fact pumping then works.
We thus should make, independent, open sourced, tests. With LOTS of questions, and variation.
Passing tests also is a rightfull yardstick; you probably do understand the concepts. And in any real world job, you can throw away 60% of what you learned in ANY test anyway, and learn about 500% more stuff you DO need.
Even your own self esteem will get a boost from passing a test, and at least, it will show some less known facts to you, if the results are public, that you didnt know before. Who knows, you might learn a new trick, pony.
Hugs SlashDread
Actually, I feel that certifications are usually like up front money before you can go and invest in a career. What I mean is, it atleast shows that you are serious about something. If you have two equal candidates for a position, but one is certified, then you can probably say that that certified person is a little more serious than the other. This too may not be totally true, but someone that is certified, has shown that they have taken the time/money/effort to atleast get certified.
Steven Rostedt
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
It's only a way among many to help we reach the goal: Linux domination. What we should pay attention to is keep it always on right track.
One friend of mine is considering provide Linux related training course in his training center. You know, he had no idea what Linux is before. But after many people ask for Linux training course, he realized this is a big business opportunity.
I've been a (boot-camp) CNE for ten years or so, and more recently am a self-taught MCSE : the company I work for also has its own relatively minor certification system. This has given me a lot of opportunity to observe vendor certification programs from both sides of the fence and overall I have to agree they are not all they're supposed to be.
Really I think vendors see them as marketing opportunities, especially if you can convince your dealer channel that they have to have some number of certified folk on staff before they can resell your product. Plus IMO the markup on education materials can be very attractive. Then again, the qualifications are portable so if it helps someone get a better job who am I to complain.
I guess we've all seen the fully-certified people who don't know anything, but there are also plenty that are pretty smart. My personal opinion is that it's down to individuals in the end, just like any other way of measuring knowledge and experience.
I have to say that one good thing about studying for certification is that it forces you to explore the boring parts of an OS as well as whatever you personally find more interesting... this has saved my bacon on numerous occasions. And self-teach is definitely the best method, running thin ethernet around my house for hands-on practice taught me a lot about enterprise stuff in miniature; I'm fairly sure I would have missed this in a classroom situation.
"Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace." V.Stone, Microsoft Corporation
Syngress is selling a RHCE (Red Hat Certified Engineer) study guide.
I wonder if it'll be on the LPI recommended reading list?
Level 1: Test 1, Test 2, and one othe 2x tests.
Level 2: Test 3, Test 4
Level 3: Two of the 5x tests.
And that'll cost you $700. (if you pass all of them the first time). To really convince people that you are a true linux guru (not just another LCP), you should ofcourse pass all of them.
The good news is, you can still plunk down the remaining $2500 to visit all the linux conventions to show of your bundle of certificates.
Johan Veenstra (Not Certified, you have to take my word for it)
sed, sort, cut, expand, fmt, head, join, nl, od, paste, pr, split, tac, tail, tr, wc, xargs, tee, ps, top, kill, bg, fg, jobs, fdisk, mkfs, quota, edquota, repquota, quotaon, chmod, umask, chown, chgrp, find, locate, which, updatedb, shutdown, init, useradd, userdel, groupadd, gpasswd, passwd, group, shadow, gshadow.
Gee, why are all these commands so long?
They could have been a lot shorter:
s, so, c, e, f, h, j, n, o, p, pr, sp, t, ta, tr, w, x, te, ps, to, k, b, fg, jo, fd, m, q, ed, r, qu, ch, u, cho, chg, fi, l, wh, up, sh, i, us, usd, g, gp, pa, gr, sha, gs.
Oh boy what have I done, aaaaaaaarrrrgh
Johan Veenstra.
Yep i'm running in compilation mode:
sed, sort, cut, expand, fmt, head, join, nl, od, paste, pr, split, tac, tail, tr, wc, xargs, tee, ps, top, kill, bg, fg, jobs, fdisk, mkfs, quota, edquota, repquota, quotaon, chmod, umask, chown, chgrp, find, locate, which, updatedb, shutdown, init, useradd, userdel, groupadd, gpasswd, passwd, group, shadow, gshadow.
To linux/unix users this seems pretty easy (which ofcourse it is), but it's gonna take somebody who's never worked with unix some time to learn all these commands, I can tell you that.
Johan Veenstra
I am a MCSE (self taught)who took the 95 test instead of the NT WKSTN test. The bottomline is that without the certification process I would never have learned as much about 95 as I did. Most of my jobs have been in all NT shops, so the material on using 95 with a NT network was somewhat new to me. I never was in a situation where I had to deal with DOS apps running under 95, so the tuning section was of interest.
There is a limit to what you learn by playing around with things, namely, the environments within which you play with em.
Matt
Having sold my soul for the MCSE, it maybe cost me 1500 total to get. You make it sounds as if your company would give you 6k for it, so it aint a bad way to increase your marketability and net 4.5k, or 6k if they pay for everything.
Matt
i think that linux certification is a Good Thing (tm), but i also must reserve judgement until we find out what these tests encompass. if they require actual knowledge of linux, that's great. if they are geared toward basic installations, deleting files, etc. then this will appear as a joke to the naysayers which will negate much of the recognition that has been worked so hard to earn. i hope this works, and i look forward to earning my penguin stripes. i just don't want to jump to conclusions.
retal,
rev. eric
sounds like your typical Win9x class at your local community college. First, they explain what a keyboard is and how to use it, then some basic navigation commands, and the user goes home with a small $.10 certificate they can hang and say they know Linux.
Fook
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
Any certification that you don't need to sit in a lab for are,as someone else said, bunk. CCIE, Bay Expert, LCNP and exams like them where you are lab tested for a day and a half are the only certifications that show real skill.
"Conan, what is best in life?" "To crush your enemy! To see them driven before you! And to hear the lamentations of the
examinations will be done in the strictest of confidence, without anasthetics, vegetable oil or lubricating midgets!
Geez, at first I was very suspicious of your "hot young actress examinations". As I read your words, I was troubled by one thought in the back of my head, would he use lubricating midgets. But then I read that line. You've sold me on your examinations buddy, I got myself a hot young actress, where do I sign up?
Asked for and received. Use of the word "Linux" in the name "Linux Professional Institute" has explicit permission of Linux International, which administers the trademark on Linus' behalf.
- Evan
I will take the advice given in your .sig - "May you all follow your philosophies to their logical concluision" - and apply it to your obviously sarcastic but amusing post.
So, what happens when we think through that analogy? First, it means that you'll get many perfect scores, from a bunch of people who wouldn't be able to reach that on their own. In other words, you'd get a result that's better than the ability of the person. In a test, this would be bad - but in real life, isn't this good? If every mediocre programmer could copy work from Linus or Alan Cox instead of trying to make it on his own, doesn't that result in a better product?
In the end, your post is interesting because while it slams the Linux programmers, it's actually showing why Open Source is a superior method of development.
We need a competing test that is GPL'd. IT whould be downloadable by everyone, and have a score sheet too, this way you know where you stand, and can do some more research before shelling out $100.... It might raise the competance level of Linux people out there too!
I think this is a good boost to the IT/IS rellated fields. Certifications have always given IT/IS pro's the ability to prove they know their stuff. VUE has always been very acomidating for a professional testing center. They are quite the seven-eleven of testing centers. I even got my mcse at one, or at least took the test there. But really folks, how much would you pay for a Linux Certification? Whould you be willing to pay as much for a Linux certification as you would for a Microsoft certification? Thats about $100 bucks per test(pass or fail). Other Certs' cost more or less depending on how complicated they claim their test to be, or valuable they feel it is. How valuable do you feel a Linux cert is?
:-)
My personal feelings are that A linux test shouldn't cost any more than about a hundred bucks, just like the MS test's. I mean there is also a financial burden that they need to think about. All them tests adding up cost a bunch of cash. What if this linux orginization decided to draft more tests? Man, it would really suck if the job market totally adopeted Linux, and everyone felt compeled to get a certification for every stupid Linux thingy. What if everyone felt compeled to get a cert from each various distro of Linux? I duno. Just ranting!
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
Incorperated in NB canada? Thats where I'm from... hrmm wonder if i can find their office...
I dislike certification courses for the same reason I became disillusioned with courses taught in universities. All they provide, in most cases, is a gauge of how well you can study. How useful you are in a real environment is often quite another story. In a sense, the ability to study and learn is what you WANT, for work based in theory (e.g. pure mathematics). But for applied engineering, you want someone who can solve problems. This is quite different from memorizing one particular solution to a problem. When I'm deciding who to hire, this is a big factor. Their ability to cope with problems they've never seen before is at least as important to me as their list of certifications. The other thing I find really annoying about certifications is their underlying purpose: revenue for the training company. Take the MCSE + Internet, for example. You could literally have some of the tests on it expire before you were finished with the whole certification. At which time, you shell out more money for the new test to keep yourself certified, etc etc... My feeling is, if your company is going to pay 100% of your training costs, including any missed work, then hell yeah, go get certified. But I wouldn't give these certification companies $.02 out of my own pocket. Best regards, SEAL
I dislike certification courses for the same reason I became disillusioned with courses taught in universities. All they provide, in most cases, is a gauge of how well you can study. How useful you are in a real environment is often quite another story.
In a sense, the ability to study and learn is what you WANT, for work based in theory (e.g. pure mathematics). But for applied engineering, you want someone who can solve problems. This is quite different from memorizing one particular solution to a problem.
When I'm deciding who to hire, this is a big factor. Their ability to cope with problems they've never seen before is at least as important to me as their list of certifications.
The other thing I find really annoying about certifications is their underlying purpose: revenue for the training company. Take the MCSE + Internet, for example. You could literally have some of the tests on it expire before you were finished with the whole certification. At which time, you shell out more money for the new test to keep yourself certified, etc etc...
My feeling is, if your company is going to pay 100% of your training costs, including any missed work, then hell yeah, go get certified. But I wouldn't give these certification companies $.02 out of my own pocket.
Best regards,
SEAL
I wouldn't send them off to take the test. However, I would send them off to study and work towards establishing a base of knowledge until they get to the point where they could take the test. A structured learning program works better for some people. Linux is becoming a viable career path and individuals who would like to get a background in linux without a good idea of where to start would probably benefit a great deal from this program, or one similar (I have not read enough to endorse this particular curriculum).
Let me say it again: THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE.
I completely agree with you. I think what is underlying our discussion is really in what the tests are testing. The Microsoft certification exams do not necessarily reflect the exams which will be sponsored by the LPI. If the LPI exams forced the individual to actually perform the tasks in order to learn them (ie test the user's ability to create, monitor and administer processes), would that make this individual a self-learner or a book learner? If the exams required the user to have considerable hands-on experience, would you feel the tests are a good thing?
I feel that they would serve a good purpose. I know that when I approach a new subject, I find it much easier to get started when I have a plan of attack. Of course the Linux self-learner has some structure forced upon him/her (ie find a computer, install Linux, start configuring Linux), but then what? It's difficult to identify what administrative skills are really necessary for a multi-user system when the machine you are working on is essentially a workstation. If I wanted to learn how to become a sysadmin, my home system would not give me the kind of experience necessary to get a good feel of how a multi-user production system (eg a dialup server for an ISP) behaves.
Anyway, I think that I don't really disagree with those who have posted arguments in favor of real world experience; I do feel that there is a place for a certification system which could provide new entrants with guidelines for learning administration/development/etc. skills. Not to mention creating instant credentials for the young job hopeful.
One thing to keep in mind. Some companies will make you sign a contract (read-oath of fealty) in return for compensation for the exams. If you leave you wind up paying them a pro-rated amount for however long the contract was and what they paid for your cert. Of course the way it was explained other companies will purchase you out of these things so who knows...
mcrandello@my-deja.com
rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important.
As a current CS undergraduate, I agree with you completely. Coming fresh ou of college, the number of doors opened by having a bit of experience and an MCSE is incredible. Just those four letters on a resume can mean a lot. Whereas unix/linux experience isn't easily sumed up for HR hiring managers. "I ran my own server with Linux..." doesn't sound as impressive on paper as "Yes, I am level T1a certified".
Does this include driver's license testing?
--- Dirtside | "Spirituality" is the irrational belief in the supernatural
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
I was all sorts of ready to blow LPI off as another company trying to pull a quick buck on the Linux bandwagon, until I read their legal info on the website; to quote:
:)
Linux Professional Institute, Inc. was officially granted status as a non-profit corporation, incorporated in the Province of New Brunswick, Canada, October 25, 1999.
Now I understand that this doesn't necessarily mean that their certification is worth a damn, but it does make me much more inclined to accept that they are looking to help the community by offering a way for us Linux users to certify our knowledge for employers who would otherwise have no standard to go by. Methinks I'll be looking further into an LPI cert.
Deosyne
I understand your feelings but I also feel that a certification is not a true reflection on the knowledge that occupies ones mind. I have seen far too many Certified Administrators that couldn't understand why they kept running out of swap when they were using it as a standard file system. I do agree with you that the CCIE is a truly accrediting certification, but this is only due to the amount of hands on one must have to complete the upper level exams. This exam still is not able to differentiate between rote learning and conceptual understanding. I do not however feel that a CCNA is as true a test of ability as it possibly should be. All to many certifications are composed of memorizing a bunch of facts that may and may not help you depending on how your mind works. Real results come from the ability to use those facts in a real world environment. I feel that in the future employers will begin to get tired of hiring a supposed "experts" who proves only to waste a lot of the companies valuable time, and will look for those employees with proven experience in the field. I do agree that certifications can definitely help you get your foot in the door; but don't try to sell yourself for more than you really know, because in the end what you really know is going to show through.
So what are you going to do? Bleed on me?
Absolutely. Driver's license testing is an even better example, where I think we can all agree my viscera have an excellent point. On general principle I wouldn't trust the government to tell me who should and shouldn't be allowed to drive. But if I give them the benefit of the doubt and take a look at their actual tests, they don't make a compelling case. Based on the tests I had to pass to get my driver's license 17 years ago in Pennsylvania, I would guess that these certification exams are perhaps just a hair better than completely worthless. And this particular certification authority is extremely conservative about revoking certification.
So yes, I would say that certification exams are even less appealing as a screening tool for drivers than they are as a screening tool for sysadmins. When you screw up the former, people are more likely to die as a result. With sysadmin testing, I was wondering aloud in my earlier comment whether or not there's an obvious better solution. With driving certification, I think there almost certainly is, although I know too little about the subject to comment knowledgeably.
I should add that I don't know what the other 49 states do for driver's license testing, but I know they can't all be as lame as Pennsylvania. But I would still guess that anything that did a good job of weeding out potentially dangerous drivers would have to go beyond anything one would describe as an exam.
As an aside, can anyone explain to me why everywhere I go, people say, "drivers here are the worst?" Compared to where?
- tokengeekgrrl
I would propose the following Exam format:
/dev/solenoid driver is configured with permissions so that the subject can access it with his/her built code.
The subject is placed in a room with a locked door. The room contains a 486 system with 8 megs of RAM, an unformatted 600 MB hard drive, an ethernet card cabled to a machine outside the room, and a bootable OpenBSD CD-ROM (which is allowed to include the little several-sided installation sheet that comes in the jewel box).
The subject must install the OpenBSD system, and configure the network so that he can SSH out to a machine outside the door, which has a source tarball containing the source for an application that will engage a solenoid to open the door. The machine outside the room is running Slackware Linux. The subject is given the IP address of the Slackware machine and a user-level account on the machine. The
The test subject has two hours to complete the task. If s/he fails, the penalty is to answer frequently asked (winmodem) questions on the linux.redhat.install usenet newsgroup for six weeks.
From my standpoint, this could be a very helpful option for some businesses and beginners. /BUT/ you also have to remember most linux users are used to the functions of their machines and how to use them. It's been said that a linux users wears two hats-- User and Admin.
Home users of linux would be getting the unfair end of this certification. Expensive training to cover how to do things you already understand is something i've done before and REALLY hope i don't have to again. If you want to waste your time, go for it. If you actually learn something, great. I guess it's really an objective thing to be determined on a case by case basis.
It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.
As an early RHCE (took the test in June), I have to say that in general I am opposed to the entire concept of certification. I believe that it makes HR departments lazy, and is not a good predictor of an employees skill.
That being said, the business owner side of me loves certification. It is a tremendous marketing tool. I'm RH certified because it allows me to have a relationship with RH. I have an MCSE who works for me because it impresses my customers.
The sad thing about this is that my customers are far more impressed by the fact that I have an employee who is an MCSE, and that I am an RHCE, than they are with the fact that I have a non-certified employee who has been working with computers for twenty years.
However, certification is here to stay and I would much rather have a vendor neutral Linux Certification than vendor specific certifications.
Stand Fast,
Stand Fast,
tjg.
If the Linux community wants the industry to respect certification, they need to choose 1(one) standard training program. Sylvan Prometric has a well established and respected test delivery system.
There may be no substitute for experience. However, going for a job a piece of certification paper goes a long way. I know where I live, Adelaide Australia if you don't have MS certification you are going to have trouble finding work. This place loves certification. I imagine things must be similar elsewhere.
"Patience is a virtue, afforded those with nothing better to do." - I don't remember
RedHat is not the standard! Red Hat is the most common and a pretty good distro, but the standard? I think not. The standards are all the pieces that individually make the different distributions not any one distribution. Having an independant body is a good idea. Perhaps one that has the backing on Linus and all the major distributors or maybe something like ISO. Any ideas?
"Patience is a virtue, afforded those with nothing better to do." - I don't remember
Another great idea. However I don't know if a certification course is for beginners. Would you send a PC newbie off to do a CNE or MCSE?
"Patience is a virtue, afforded those with nothing better to do." - I don't remember
This is true to some extent, but... Suppose I am not a "self-taught pioneer," but I think I am capable of learning and then coding (sys.administration, testing, whatever). I have two paths - learn everything by trial and error (though I am not sure how I would do it for some expensive software packages - e.g. Oracle) or go read some books/take classes and then go work. While the former one seems "purer," and such experience would be more valuable, it will require much more time and effort than the latter. If you measure from the moment of 0 knowledge, the second person will be able to move to a decent-level job faster than the former.
(Sidenote - I myself learned most stuff by trial and error, taking only a couple of CS classes at school and working as a part-time coder all along)
While I admit that certs can be bunk, I'm willing to do them if an employer is going to send me and pay for them. In my opinion though it is a poor gauge to imply/say/acert (pardon pun) that a salary signifies deserving credit and peer respect.
Ever hear of Dilbert principle? There are many people with certs and many without. An equal amount in each category think they know their stuff but actually know squat. A fool with a cert is still a fool. A fool w/o a cert is still a fool.
What do HR's know about certs anyways? They can just be useful in opening doors.
That rant being said, I'll probablly get some of the LINUX certs... but only after there is some shakedown to see which ones are "worthy".
I knew a long time ago that I'd have to spend some evenings and weekend reading those boring books from Sam's or M$ press in order to remain current.
;-). (TNN for the Yanks)
Ohh! And all the useless commands and arguements that I'll never use! I just love that!
I hope that someone writes a guide for these exams that won't snap my eyelids shut faster than CMT
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
Are the exams going to be open source?
I mean bunk as in adequately representing your skills. They don't mean anything as far as the quality of your skillset. Whether you know the stuff? Sure. But that doesn't mean you have experience.
Perhaps I should rephrase to say it this way: The certifications are absolutely worthless as a way to tell if you can solve problems or as a way to tell if you can do the job. If you want to certify that you know the stuff, bookwise... then they are very useful.
And as any college student knows, 99 percent of the time, that's all that matters to professors or employers...
If you can't figure out how to mail me, don't.
For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
That limit is only there if you allow it to be. I've been in this industry five years. I know a formidable amount of UNIX/Linux, a formidable amount about NT, and a formidable amount about macintosh's. I've programmed for all three platforms, administrated for all three, and all on live, production, user systems. All without one computer class. You know why? I wasn't afraid to jump into a task with both feet - preferably with a deadline. By the time I was done I knew what I was doing. It got to the point where the MCSE's were coming to me for advice.
Sure, if you choose to stay in one field and never try anything differently, you're right. But if you just jump into something and get it done, and if you have the oportunity to do so, well, then, you're not very limited AT ALL by your environment. You make your environment serve you.
If you can't figure out how to mail me, don't.
For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
im not trying to be a troll -
but,,, its MCSE
microsoft certified systems engineer
:)
Before the issue was beaten to death, Slashdot used to post several articles/Features/Whatever dealing with the GPL. If you saw some of the comments then, people actually do believe they have a right to other peoples code - they shouldn't have to pay for it, and they should be allowed to copy it as much as they wish. In other words, people missed the whole point to the GPL and OSS
However, this poster (or troll), whether he/she/it realized it or not, pointed out how ridiculous that line of thinking is by trying to apply it elsewhere (such as a test). You responded with a logical argument that supports the ideals of OSS, and maybe someone else was better for have reading it.
Why am I bothering to respond to the responder of the imbicile?
What gives these guys the right to give out any sort of certification at all? Who are these guys? What are their credentials? As for the Virtual "University"... I think the quotes say it all. I didn't go through more than 11 years in two universities and go through a very rigourous process to be awarded my doctorate for nothing. I doubt that these people are certified to do anything.
I don't feel comfortable with this Linuz guy working on the Internals of my kernel. You know he doesn't even have a "Grade 9 Kernel Hacking" cert?
btw, this is a joke.
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
There is in fact a Redhat Certification. It's been out forever, read about it at:
http://www.redhat.com/products/training.html
Does anyone have any thoughts on what a Linux admin would gain by having his/her RHCE (RedHat Certified Engineer)?
I haven't heard of a single person who actually has a RHCE, but someone I used to know irl was working on getting it. How Many of you are RHCE's, and what did you think of the tests?
Diggs
If guns are so evil, how come Sarah Brady can hold one and not turn into a raving lunatic?? Oh yeah, she is one already.
sadly, my company requires me to take the courses if I want a raise. So, i'll be taking the courses, unless they offer a bonus for being linux certified.
BTW-Let me know when you're opening up your IPO. lol.
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
Hmmmm. I was thinking about signing over my soul to MS to get the 6 grand for my MCSE, but I think I'll save myself and go for the Linux cert. Interesting idea though. How can you offer standard testing for a non-standard OS? Is it going to be based around a certain Distro or is it just "concepts"?
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
If nothing else, it will hopefully drive up the quality and quantity of good Linux documentation. While not all "certification guides" are the best manuals, I have found some that cover other technologies (Sun, Microsloth, Cisco, etc.) to be some of the more thorough resources on their respective topics. We may now see some cohesive set of docs for new linux users...
-@d
The world will be full of Daves Johns and Geralds, the geeky and CERTIFIED linux admins! As soon as the action figures come out I'm there!
do we really want a regulating body which will set linux standards, even educational standards? regulating bodies tend to regulate, and the strength of linux and open source seems to be its ability to create its own standards, which are substantially higher than propriatory os's standards. a linux version of the msce? does anyone really want that???
Steve O.
I am really, really exhausted.
Hmmm I wonder what linus thinks of this chick I'm going to screw tonight. Hmm oh well he doesn't like her, that means I won't get any. I wonder how many times that linus thinks I should wipe my ass. Who cares what he thinks? He's not your master.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
...now I can just plunk down $4000, take a test, and convince people that I'm a Linux guru. This is great. Here I was thinking that I might actually have to learn it. :)
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Well, the problem with such certifications is, that they are worthless to HR, if they are not standardized. MSCE is just the cert to look for, if you look for windows people. So in order for linux to reach the buiz world, there ought to be standard linux certifications, HR can trust. and it's all in the linux communities interest, that these cerfications actually are not just "bunk", but certify you to be able to cope with a linux system. if they are just "bunk", there will be a lot of certified linux administrators around, who are not worthy login in as root-users...
of course the best way to go would be some open linux certification, some online skill tests, free of course, so that the linux community can decide what's important in order to understand linux, manage a webserver, etc.
and then, when people with those certifications prove that they are worth their money, the certifications are not just "bunk" anymore, they mean something.
hum?
What that penguin is probably getting around to doing is not normally associated with the term "brutalizing" and :)
is illegal in most US states
I think an exception can be made for Dollar Bills skull tho'
Here's some irony for you. I worked on the development team that wrote VUE's test driver until about a year ago. At the time I left, and I'd imagine currently, the driver will only run on Windows. So have fun taking your Linux certification on a Windows machine.
Indeed. I find it ludicrous that they even have RPM's for source packages. What was wrong with the tar.gz distribution media. Granted, a little hand holding in the form of binary RPM's might be tolerable for Linux-should-be-like-Windows people, but source code is source code is source code. Why does it need a proprietary (yes, it is proprietary, even if openly documented) packaging scheme?
They then found out he had previous drug convictions (selling & possession). He wound up going to site, getting in a high-speed police chase, nearly hitting an officer, and got busted.
/I/ was called with a job offer.
There is a difference between being certified and not having a criminal record. But, I do see what you mean. I just believe that the process is targeting the wrong people. Those who are doing the hiring should be competent at doing so, and in the case of Linux skills, you bring out the dead box.
Certification does not really prove anything, except that you've gotten a peice of paper. How many people in charge of hiring do you know that interview those providing the certification as well? In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the hiring company to ensure competance. Unfortunately, I must concede that this is impractical in many situations (how would you feel about uncertified, self-taught doctors working in a hospital?), but in others it's the only way to go.
When you're dealing with Linux, and you're not dealing with lives, those certifying you didn't do it to make you get a better job, they did it to get lots of money (that's why it costs so much, and why their tests a numerous and seem to overlap). When you're dealing with lives, the tests actually have reflect competence (besides, you don't just walk in and take one) or people would notice and sue. What's going to make bigger waves, an ISP goes down for an hour and someone gets fired, or someone dies as a result of incompetence on behalf of thier doctor?
Certification does do something, but it proves very little, especially in situations where those hiring generally do not know enough to verify the potential employee's skills. Sadly, this is where certification seems to be most relied upon.
I've never acquired any certification (and when clients ask "where did you get your certification", I proudly respond, "my basement") and when the time came,
The truth is, in my experience, school doesn't teach you anything much aside from 'how to conform'. I went with this and things panned out well. But there is one thing I appreciate about this certification, they aren't trying to teach you anything, and they don't appear to be offering.
---
[ approaching AI ]
That may not be fair, or the way it should be viewed, but since when does that matter to managment? If it did, MS would not be the monster it is today.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I wonder if we can start a SDTC (SlashDot Troll Certification program going. Then we could have something like this:
School House Trolling (Score:5, Troll)
by Anonymous Coward on 07:50 PM January 11th, 2000 EST (#92)
[...]
---
SDTC --- Certified Troll #00001002
After all, if certification is practically meaningless, I'm sure we could start some practical uses for meaningless certification!
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
That's right it is MCSE. The best way to remember is to know that MCSE stands for:
Must
Consult
Someone
Experienced
or
Most
Concerned with
Salary
Enhancement
-
:)
- Why is the ninja... so deadly?
Why dose it cost more per test than MCP ?
Dose MS use software sales to susidise exams ?
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
I believe the biggest things that linux is lacking is the amount of skilled people. One of the main reasons why MS is popular is that you can find someone to fix your network / computer anywhere. Now I know everyone is thinking that an MCSE could't fix anything, but they are around, and in most cases can get things going.
In general I think companies are leery about installing Linux, because of the lack of capable people.
We need the certifications there so people can obtain them. A certification says that I know so much. It gives a company some sense of security--even though it may be a false sense of security, in some cases.
There is no paper based exam in the world that will weed out the unwarranted people. The only successul way to do this are like CCIE, and RHCE, where they have lab based exams. That is fact, why dispute it.
I wish the best of luck to all those pursuing the LPI certs. I will be one of them. We should encourage as many people as possible to get them. It will help the Linux community.
Geoff Nordli MCT, MCSE, Master CNE, CCA, A+
The above coward is drawing a completely bogus comparison between Open Source and cheating. Open Source is not about copying other people's work. It is about building on what has been done and made publically availablle so you can do more. It coincidentally has significant advantages as a software development mechanism.
It is no more cheating for me to work in Perl than it is cheating for me to write a math paper and quote results that someone else proved.
Real systems are complex. You are not going to figure them out from scratch on your own. And, no matter how good OSS is, they are going to fail from time to time. If you don't actually understand what is going on, you won't be able to trouble-shoot your problems. Here is what happened to me over the weekend. My boss was headed off to a conference, and on his copy of a Linux machine root could login, ordinary users could not, and some of the CGI programs were broken. What was wrong? Turned out the disk was full.
This certification exam is meant to separate out the people who actually understand what is going on from those who are just guessing and copying what they don't understand. I am not an administrator, but I was better than someone with that bozo's pathetic attitude.
Ah, why am I bothering to respond to this imbicile?
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Looking through Brainbench's list of certifications that they offer, I noticed that they offered a Linux Administrator offering.
Are we heading for a world where certifications become like standards, there are just so many to choose from?
How worthwhile are any of these anyways?
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
...met someone with an MCSE who knew what they were doing, nor have I met any CNE or CNA who had a clue either. I wouldn't expect an LNE or LNA or LCSE or whatever it winds up being called to be any smarter.
With all due respect, an MCSE course isn't going to teach you what you need to know about designing an "enterprise network". You need real hard won experience to do that.
I would guess the guy who sets up a complex network at home is going to be further ahead than the guy who only read books about it, and wrote an MCSE exam.
When I was in school I lived in a residence with 15 other people, and another 12 next door. We wired the whole place up with ethernet, running it through the eves troughs, up the side of the house, etc., with lots of hubs and so forth. The network had two dial out SLIP lines (that dates me, huh?) which we shared between all of us. That means you've got a network with many hubs, a couple of servers, and two connections to the outside world. Most mid-size corporate networks look something like that. If you're talking about anything more complex, your MCSE isn't going to be nearly enough.
There is no limit to what you can learn playing around. The only thing you don't get out of playing with computers is a sense of how to work in a team--you're a hacker, until you've worked in a real world team.
But an MCSE won't give you team experience either, and since team experience is the only thing separating hackers from computing professionals, I'd say you lose on your MCSE.
Book learning is good--you don't need an MCSE to get that either. I read an average of one good technical book a month, and have been doing that since I was about 15. Since I'm 30 now, that's a lot of hard study. Except the few years I was in school (studying math), none of those were course work.
You CANNOT install RedHat without installing X-windows and at least the VGA-16 server; this is, IMO, VERY BROKEN!!
/rc.d/ in between /etc and all the SysV stuff should be shot.
Bullshit. I did exactly that with RH 6.0 for my firewall machine.
And whoever stuck that extra
That would be Sun who did it first. Frankly I prefer it that way.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Good ghod, man, isn't there an entire industry centered around helping newbies cram to do just that?
Weblogging Considered Harmful:
MCSE (back when I got it at any rate) costs $100 per test for 6 tests. I picked a 4pack of Sybex books covering the core for ~$138. Got the microsoft SQL 6.5 training books for ~170. Total cost ~$908. Not anywhere close to $6k.
--Shoeboy
Telstra, AU's largest ISP and supplier of the vast majority of upstream bandwidth still carries full usenet feeds, including alt.binaries.erotica.* etc et al.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
I took a good look over the Objectives By Exam and it looks rather comprehensive. I can see MANY things in there that are reasonbly difficult, diverse in their nature, not necessarily intuitive, and require some serious study.
And by giving out this list, it gives you a decent idea of what to expect. And knowing what to expect means you know what to learn if you want to succeed in getting this certification. It also gives people a set of objectives to learn even if they don't bother going through with the certification, which IMHO is a "good thing".
There are always going to be wanna-be's without motivation, frauds and people that will help them, because it is profitable to do so. It's just a matter of recognising them, and providing a detailed enough course to discourage the wanna-be's without the motivation, and the frauds from even trying. Much beyond that is futile at best, and at worst, damages the community as much, if not more, than the wanna-be's and frauds do in the first place.
As for the cost, well, if you want to succeed, you should expect to pay something, and $100 US is nothing compared to the courses I've seen on some products. Just because the software is free, doesn't mean the hard earned hours of the testers and the like should also be free.
As an aside, the only question I haven't seen yet in a Linux Certification is "When not to use Linux". Sure the list would be small, but hey, if you are true professional, you realise that no single product can be suited to everything. *grin*
But what does the exam cost?
And do I get a lapel pin if I get certified?
I've decided to get as many different certs as possible this year, but only if I get a lapel pin. Hey, you gotta have standards!
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
But they give HR a nice little metric. Especially for people like me who do not have a college degree but lots of practical experience.
I feel sorry for the HR people, who are in the same boat I would be if I had to find people for staff positions teaching talmudic studies. I think its a bad thing to use certifications to screen out candidates.
The big issue I have with most certification programs is that they're to some degree a marketing gimmick; a way of creating a 3rd column within the customer's hierarchy that is wedded to your product. In reality, given the rapid change of technology, what most company needs are people who are more flexible. You also can't allow your experience with a system to wed you too deeply to it. You have to be willing to burn your intellectual capital the way millionaires in old movies lit their cigars with $20 bills.
If I were to be totally honest with an HR guy about why his company should hire me is that they can drop me into an entirely novel environment and in a couple of days I can do useful things with it, in a couple of weeks I can do interesting things with it, and sometimes in a month or so I can do amazing things. However, if I said that he would conclude that I'm arrogant -- and on that score he'd be more than a little right. What he'd be wrong about is thinking that's a bad thing. You need a little hubris; you can't be timid about jumping into something you're not an expert at.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
He had to show up physically, because how else can there be any verification of who he says he is.
They didn't give him immediate results because it's a beta exam and they're still ironing out the details of how to score the answers (partial credit, etc.).
He got a dead-tree certificate because it's much easier to photocopy and give to employers.
And if that last one doesn't satisfy you, you can pretend that the online censor-boards in Australia would confiscate his certificate if it were kept online, and therefore the dead-tree copy is just a prudent precaution.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
We all know you wacky Australians wouldn't let a little problem like that get in your way.... ;)
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
With your first post, I though you were funny, with the second, I thought OK enough, with the third, you deserve troll, but now I have to say, anyone that puts in this much effort should be a feature ;p
If I have to read (Score -1: Troll) remarks, I wish they all could be like this.
Steven Rostedt
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
I, for one, am not a big fan of certification. I think the old, trusty interview process should suffice. Any knucklehead can get a certification. Interviewing tells you so much more about a potential candidate.
I work for a guy who wants to get certified in COBOL ?!? I asked him if there were a market for certified COBOL programmes and he replied "I don't know but it's gotta look good on the resume". This is the exact attitude that I despise. People looking for certification are looking for an end to achieve their means. I'm more interested in the person who realizes that life is an ongoing learning process that never ends.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Take a look at the list of exams they are developing:
:)
1: General Linux, part I,
2: General Linux, part II,
2a: Caldera-specific,
2b: Debian-specific,
2c: TurboLinux-specific,
2d: Red Hat-specific,
2e: Slackware-specific,
2f: SuSE-specific
That's $800 already.
They are planning another 7 test in the future:
3: Advanced,
4: Linux Internals,
5a: Windows Integration,
5b: Internet Server,
5c: Datebase Server,
5d: Security, Firewalls, and Encryption,
5e: Kernel Drivers and Packages
That makes a total of 15 tests! So the guru's out there (who probably ace all of them without any further study) have to pay $1500 to 'prove' they are at least modestly proficient at linux. Seems like a lot of money to me, but hey if the boss is paying, who cares? Getting a few days off to study won't hurt either
Johan Veenstra
And, I can't help but remember that hoary old rule, the good drives out the excellent, the barely adequate drives out the good. If the PHBs get their way with this paper certification stuff, we can expect to see corporate contributions to Linux eventually drop to the same low standards they are at in the Wintel world.
It will give some newbies a place to start, and a goal to shoot for. I know that as a not-so-newbie-but-still-struggling, I have a hard time figuring out what to tackle next.
/.'d)
Here is an link to the description of the "1a" exam (I think it's already been
happy reading.
Do you get extra credit in the RHCE "test" if one of the things you do to fix the "broken box" is delete Linuxconf, recompile the kernel to use NO frickin kernel modules (you recompile the kernel to build in support for all the hardware in the box), and delete all the pretty Python scripts and "admin" crap?
(I'm assuming you can't bring along your own Slackware or Debian CD-ROM.)
I suppose somebody has to be trained in how to clear up the mess that Red Hat has made, and I guess they should take responsiblity for training the poor fools.
This is not always the case. For example, playing around with a few NT boxes would not help me understand the theory behind designing an enterprise network. There are some things that you can't always experience on your home network.
Even if my MCSE proves to be worthless in my career, i am still glad i did it because it forced me to learn things that i would have never learned through experience alone.
This is a good thing. While the applicability of certifications to the real world can be debated, it is true that many of the testing requirements are things you need to know. The certification will give a reason for the personel departments of various companies to hire you, and something to cover their ass better than "Well he said he knew linux". Companies will be more likely to move to linux if there is a certification process. This will aid Linux in general.
As for the people asking about which distribution, the certification is not distribution specific, however one of the requirements is that you pass a distribution specific exam of your choice. Available choices are RedHat(obviously), Debian, TurboLinux, and others. Not all, but most of the common ones.
In our company HR knows nothing of certification, much less technology and they are not in the decicion making tree. However, to open doors, having a list of acronyms for certifications and associations really does have some impact.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
There's a lot to what you say. I think the real use of these certifications is so that a manager who does not know the field he or she is hiring for may have some assurance that you know at least something about the field. That's not necessarily a good thing! (makes me think of Dilbert)
I think the question people should ask themselves is this: Do I know that at least my co-workers are knowledgeable? If you're being hired by someone who only asks for a certification, and doesn't seem to require anything else, I'd be suspicious. I would not want to work for some place that used the certification as the main requirement for checkinging off the "knows X, Y and Z" box.
Jim
Mirror here: http://www.angelfire.com/sd/sdmirror/exam.html
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
Note that I did not assert any anti-Microsoft sentiment in my message. I just don't believe in these stupid certification courses like MCSE, and CNE before that. They're all stuff and nonsense, and a Linux version wouldn't be any better.
If you learned a lot by playing around with NT while getting your MCSE, let me suggest to you that you would have learned just as much by playing around with NT without the MCSE. Similarly you would likely get more out of installing Linux and intelligently playing around with it, than you would by studying some ridiculously fat book and writing some dumb certification exam.
The MCSE/CNE/etc. is a bunch of drivel. An intelligent person might learn something quite by accident--most likely because intelligent people learn something from most anything they do.
It's my job to interview and hire programmers, at least part of the time. I will continue to view MCSE (or its Linux equivalent) as evidence that someone felt they were incompetent and didn't know how to educate themselves, so they turned to scam artists who promptly took their money. My experience interviewing people is that the MCSE (or other style certification) candidates went through that cert process because they were alien to the field and didn't know where to start. The MCSE, in general, doesn't solve that problem.
The reason these MCSE/etc. things exists is mythical: there are supposedly companies out there who receive so many resumes that they need to look for the "certified" candidates just to reduce the stack somewhat. This isn't true. Any competent technical person can quickly work through a stack of resumes and pick out the ones that look promising.
The real problem is HR departments--when someone who is not qualified reviews the resumes and pretends to select the ones that are "interesting". These incompetent HR drones are likely the best justification that the certification programs have. But rather than create a certificaion process, the right thing to do is fire the HR drone and give the stack of resumes to someone qualified to read them.
If you want to find good people you have to do hard work to find them. And anyway, contrary to the myth above, there simply aren't that many qualified people out there. I do NOT get a huge stack of resumes when I go looking for good people--it's a sellers market right now.
Whatever certifications there are, there must be different levels.
Something like
o Fundamentals
o System Administrator
o Kernel Hacker^H^H^H^H^H^HDeveloper
o Guru
o Kung-Fu Master
Having an MCSE does not guarantee that someone is stupid, but there's plenty of really stupid people I've seen with their MCSEs.
Well I guess you haven't been exposed to very many of these kinds of people then. I know plenty without a clue, too, but I also know some pretty damn amazingly smart people who went for thsoe kinds of exams because their bosses wanted them to, it meant a raise, etc.
/.'ers would fall into a similar category when it comes to various Linux tests.
These tests are a real double-edged sword. On the one hand, they provide a basis of what people should know, and employers (PHBs in particular) enjoy that. On the other hand, once they become popular and people realize that just by having this little piece of certification they can make X dollars a year or Y dollars more, it all starts falling to shit.
Back when I was more of a Microsoft Whore, I passed like 5 exams I think. They were:
- Access 2.0
- VB 3.0
- Win95
- WOSA I
- WOSA II
Some of those are outdated now, and I've not bothered to keep up with them because the last couple jobs I've had it doesn't really matter. I wouldn't have gotten those, but when I was at a consulting company, my boss liked to show off that he had MCSD(s) working for him. Looked good no the sell sheets, company info, etc.
When I took those exams, I never failed a single one. All of the preparation I did involved buying one single book that talked about the kind of stuff that was on the WOSA tests. I expect that many
Why am I, or others, able to do such a thing? Because I did MS stuff every day, my experience was in playing with stuff all the time.
My theory on what happens with all of these tests in general follows: When tests or new certifications are announced, people that actually know the stuff take them right away and have no problems. Eventually curricula are produced, and people start having classes for the exams. Then people see it as a career advancement, pay their $1000s for a course in some certification, be it CNE, MCSE, MCSD, etc. etc., learn EXACTLY the questions that are on the test (the randomness isn't all THAT random, I'd imagine), pass, get their certification, and their extra bucks.
So basically, the tests are useful at the start, because the people that already know everything pass easily and quickly. Then eventually you fall into the CNE syndrome where everyone can become one, and the tests essentially become meaningless for everyone involved, except as CYA material (that's Cover-Your-Ass for those unfamiliar).
A far far better metric would be to see things like "GPAs" for the classes, test pass/fail rate, etc., but I don't think anyone involved would let that happen.
I recall a few decades back when an organization was putting together the CDP (Certified Data-processing Professional) exam. This was supposed to test programmers and let the suits know which were good enough to handle their jobs.
It was also a rather Co$tly little test. And the organization developing it planned to run itself on the money it charged for the tests and to joion their association.
Most programmers (myself included) considered it to be a crock, and thought the organization promoting it was trying to set up a protection racket, where their association members would be the only ones who would be employable. (And that even if it were in good faith, the field was so broad that any test would be ghettoized and would mainly measure which part of the field you were in, not how good you were.) So we boycotted it in droves, and it never took off.
Nowdays CDP is a dead issue.
Which is probably just as well, given that that these days Data Professionals don't do much with COBOL or RPG. B-)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Viscerally, I don't like the idea of certification exams -- I wouldn't want to have to take one, and I certainly wouldn't want to lose a job to someone vastly less capable, just because they happened to have the approval of some dubious skill certification authority.
But I wonder what the alternative is. I'm no expert on hiring, but I've been asked to do some certification on similarly limited information -- that is, someone handed me a few resumes and asked me to express some opinions. You can't always tell much from a resume. At some point I'll have to interview people. Interviews are notoriously unreliable. If I hadn't been around, the interview and resume reading would have to have been done by someone with no relevant technical knowledge whatsoever. It's hard to imagine them getting any useful information about competence. Hiring someone to do your hiring might be a good idea, or it might be a painful experience in the difficulty of bootstrapping. So is the certification exam an example of the worst form of certification, except for all the others?
I'd have to guess that a certification exam score is, if only slightly, better than nothing (or, rather, better than just a resume). The question then is more one of weighting. How bad does your other information have to be before the certification exam scores should carry significant weight? And how often does the typical interview rise above that threshold of informativeness? I have the unjustified feeling that, with some forethought, I could outperform an exam. But I don't think everyone is in my position.
I like your style :)
/rc.d/ in between /etc and all the SysV stuff should be shot. Twice. At point blank range. With an elephant gun. In the head. (sorry, BOFH!)
Do you subscribe to BUGTRAQ? Do you know how many more security advisories RH has to put out as a result of their silly GUI tools? Boy, do I ever...and guess what? Our server is about to get a hard disk upgrade, and the new disk has Debian Potato. In fact, all of our machines are moving to Debian; once I used it, I never wanted to go back.
I'm firmly convinced that apt-get is the best thing since SMP. On machines at colleges where the staff changes every 4 years, the package manager MUST NOT SUCK. Also, on my own machines, I can install the base system of 28M, and then compile all other packages myself, so I'm in complete control (if I want more security, for example) Magnificent.
You CANNOT install RedHat without installing X-windows and at least the VGA-16 server; this is, IMO, VERY BROKEN!! And how can I smoothly upgrade from 5.2 to 6.x, so that I can use the latest RPMs of Sendmail and not be an open relay any more. No, that was purely hypothetical...
apt-get update
apt-get dist upgrade
Amazing. The Way It Was Meant To Be.
And whoever stuck that extra
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
As an MCSE, I'd like to take this opportunity to express my hope that the new linux certification process is as good as Microsoft's.
These are IMHO the most important MCSE tests.
70-215 Summoning He Who Shall Not Be Named 4.0
70-38 Demonic possesion essentials.
70-75 Implementing non-euclidean madness caused by manifestations of the dread Cthulhu 2000 in the enterprise.
70-134 Advanced programming with Yog Sothoth
Does the linux community have anything similar?
--Shoeboy the MCSE
You start off by saying "I think the certifications are bunk" and then proceed to explain that they indicate to other people that you have some skills and that your career has been bettered.
I don't think that anyone is claiming that a certification is anything but a piece of paper that indicates that you might have a clue. In my opinion, certifications certainly serve that purpose.
You also generalize; contrary to your claim, there are certainly certifications that prove that you have a top-notch skillset. For example, Cisco's CCIE certification is 100% deserving of the credit given to those who pass it (120k+ starting salaries and a lot of peer respect). Even the MCSD shows that you can at least do mildly adequate Windows programming (if there is such a thing).
Are there certifications that are less than what most people make them out to be? Sure. Are most certifications less valuable than what most people make them out to be? Unfortunately, yes. Are they "bunk" or worthless? Nope.
is not whether someone has a certification, but whether the certification is worth anything. Hopefully this organization's program actually contains the material and instruction necessary to turn people into useful Linux sysadmins, or something resembling one. If so, then I think they will get the imprimatur of the Linux community, which will mean that this certification will mean something. And since no one body controls Linux, a Linux certification might mean something, compared to more centrally-controlled certification programs *cough*MCSE*cough*.
--- Dirtside | "Spirituality" is the irrational belief in the supernatural
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
I worked pretty hard to achieve my MCSE. Bought some books, studied hard, played with NT (which is not nearly as horrible as some people here on /. are pretty quick to say), learned some great stuff, and most of all I had fun while doing it. I did not do it for any reason other than it was a good way to enter into the IT world above my current status as a help desk person. I had some of the skills i needed, but employers would nearly always choose the people who had certifications, because they "met" their qualifications and they would rather not hire someone who needs "on-the-job training" if they have someone who, certifiably, does not. By no means was obtaining my MCSE as difficult as undergrad Senior Seminar Philosophy class in college, but since there are not a whole lot of job opportunities for Philosophy BAs (who, incidentially were not smart enough to minor in comp sci or something useful like that) being able to gain entry into this wonderful profession via an access point like an MCSE is a pretty good way to go.
Please don't get me wrong. I am also an MCT, but you will never catch me teaching. I refuse to water down my own certification for some poor schmuck who will pay $10,000 for a "boot camp" that lasts an entire week so they can go forth and fsck everything up. I assure you I had a *long* discussion with my employer regarding that.
At any rate. I guess my point to all of this is that you shouldn't let the stand-out paper MCSEs who don't know anything dictate what you think of other MCSEs. Some of us are smart, nice, and even {gasp!} use Linux (if Bill only knew). while I am not going to argue that your average MCSE tends to be a little greener when it comes to IT (or networking or whatever you want to call it) there are some of us who might surprise you in the long run.
Just don't assume that someone obtains a certification that they don't know anything...it really is a close-minded way to look at things (even if your experiences tell you otherwise).
Just my thoughts. Flame away....
cdmz1
Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball
...they were right about you...
I am a sun certified system administrator, having taken the tests and passing and stuff. And let me say right off that I think the certifications are bunk. They have no relation to what you actually know.
But they give HR a nice little metric. Especially for people like me who do not have a college degree but lots of practical experience. And I think my career is the better for accomplishing the certification, no matter whether it means anything technically...
So do I think these certifications are a good thing? You betcha. But not because they're useful, but just because it gives us a credential that we may not otherwise be able to claim. Don't go expecting it to have any real world technical application. Just be glad there's some form of validation that HR can understand out there. And who cares who actually does the certification? Bets that HR won't... In fact, I know several MCSEs who wouldn't know a mouse when they see one... but they make more money than I do...
Just take it for what it is... something that will help you to increase your take-home pay.
If you can't figure out how to mail me, don't.
For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
I was one of the first persons (ID: LPI000001003) to take this test. I just wanted to share my experiences with you guys.
The testing center near my home is a local technical school. They were friendly and the exam area was comfortable. I arrived early and brushed through parts of the O'Reilly "Essential System Administration" I haven't read over in a while.
While I was waiting, a gentlemen approached me and asked if I was there to take a Linux exam. I smiled and indicated I was. He was attending the school there pursuing his MSCE and had some questions about Linux and the exam. He was curious how I was preparing especially and what subjects the exam covered. I explained I was a consultant and have been using Linux since 1994 and recommended a few good books on the subjects covered by the exam. I also explained what I know about the exam structure and requirements. I also indicated that I chaired the Melbourne Linux User Group (http://www.mlinux.org/) and that we have local meetings. He took my business card and said he would like to attend our install party this weekend.
I was motioned to the testing area by the librarian and she explained that mine was the second beta exam she ever gave and the first Linux exam. I told her to expect a few more in the coming weeks and she logged me into the exam system.
The test was challenging and I added comments for each of the questions, added why I selected the options I did or when I was guessing. The questions were appropriate for the target level you mentioned on the site. Good job LPI!
When the test was completed I was given a printout that featured the LPI logo and some explanation of the beta period scoring. I am disappointed that I won't know the results for a while, but am glad I was able to help by providing another example test for LPI to mull over. If you want to contact me and ask me anything about the test, please feel free.
Thanks to LPI for this effort at distribution neutral certification! I feel very strongly about supporting this and will be encouraging the members of our LUG to support it as well.
Tony Awtrey
My God! It's full of Voids!
You know, I've always hated certifications.. but I can see where employers like them.
.8x or so... I can't even remember. It was a mess. The concept of a 'distribution' wasn't even fully solidified. I've worked with Solaris, Irix, SCO Unix, Unixware (Both Novell and Sco) and the list goes on. And add NT/unix integration to the list. I feel *burnt* if someone expects me to fork out money to pay some company to tell me that I'm qualified to work on linux...
See, it's not that Mr. CIO thinks that an MCSE is *cool* or *really smart* or anything, it's just easy for him, if he has a MS based network, to say 'well, MS certifies professionals, so it makes sense that if MS certifies them, we'll get more bang for our buck.'
This, of course, isn't always the case....Quite the opposite sometimes, even.
The hacker kid who has *no* certifications may be a far better asset to the company... and the person with the MCSE may be so narrow-minded that you are stuck on the MS path forever. (I'm not picking on MS, the same thing applies to *any* other vendor.)
Now some certifications we may think of as more involved... certainly, if you are doing mostly network engineering, the guy with the CCIE is probably worth his weight in gold... but then again, the whole point of the CCIE was to provide a certification for an industry where there was none. Employers had *nothing* to judge a potential internetwork employee by. I must say, to this day, if someone has a CCIE, I can assume they know their stuff and are practiced... CCIE isn't one of those certifications you can study the book for for a week or two and then go pass... it was created for professionals who *already* had lots of experience. Now.. don't think I'm a cisco head... I don't mean to single them out, or to promote them, but it is a good example of what we need in the linux/unix world, and really, in the IT world in general.
To look at it a different way is that I feel that MCSE, dmCLA, LPI, CNE, A+ don't adequately certify what *I* am capable of as an IT employee.
There is no overriding certification, nothing in the industry that says 'professional, well-rounded, experienced IT person.... well, except your resume, that is!
Now.. what am I (personally), as someone who is part of the hiring process, as the architect of the companies entire network, when I see on a resume LPI certified. Hmm.. Linux qualifications are part of the process. Am I going to take this person seriously? Sure. LPI looks reasonably good. Am I going to reject someone else with experience because they don't have LPI? Heck no.. I wouldn't think of it. To put it differently, most certifications are a plus to the holder, but not a necessity.
And it does feel kind of threatening, doesnt' it? I've been using linux since
(is this like how my uncle feels burnt that now that there are SCUBA regulations, he can't go diving without going to classes and getting his ticket, even though he's been diving for 30 years?)
I'm rambling...
I guess to make a long story short, certifications never make you look bad, but they are no replacement for experience.
Or like the black-belt in most martial arts.. the unknowing see it as the goal to be obtained, but to those who obtain it, and to their teachers, it simply signifies the beginning.
Just like an engineering degree is your ENTRY POINT into professional engineering, and just like your PH.D is your entry point into a medical practice, so is a certification in some product simply an entry point into the IT world.
Or rather, do you tell the ninja master that he cannot teach you because he cannot provide credentials?
I'm not a network administrator, but I "manage" (in the business/personnel) sense, the network operations in our shop.
I sent our network admin through RHCE (and was there taking one of the lead-in courses) at Red Hat. While many of the comments in this batch seem to assume that all certification consists of is a written exam, that's not true of the RHCE. It has a high failure rate. Written responses are only a third of the score -- the rest is hands-on debugging and server configuration. I've taken all the classes up to the RHCE, but there's not a chance in hell I'd be able to pass the exam -- because I don't have the years of experience that it takes to succeed when you get off the paper and in front of the broken box.
Upshot: I'm one of the guys who hires geeks. Because I know what's involved, I'll give preference (and extra cash) for an RHCE -- as long as they keep the high standards up that RedHat's established so far.
Wouldn't it be great if the other certification vendors -- LinuxCare, whoever -- made Linux certification mean something more than the toilet paper MSCE?
"When I grow up, I'll be stable."
Here is a quick example: My friend just started working for a company that makes all their employees take the MSCE tests. How do they prepare for them, they all cram with study books to remember facts for a week before the tests, and they take a test a week every week until they pass them all (and supplying MS with much $) But what do they gain from this??? NO real or retainable knowledge! But the company gets more money if the employees are MSCE certified, and so the cycle continues.
In addition the test (as far as I can tell) is useless. I had my friend ask me some of the questions. One which struck me was a section where you had to match up the names of the network standards to the IEEE standard numbers. Now, while its great to know what IEEE 802.3 proper name is, but it won't help you at all when your netwoek goes down.