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Earth's Second Moon
sbryant writes "According to the Daily Telegraph (free login required): the earth has a second moon called 'Cruithne', which was discovered by a British team.
The moon was previously thought to be an asteroid, but the experts now tell us that Cruithne, which is 3 miles across (4.8km), is in fact
a Trojan asteroid, and has an eccentric horseshoe orbit around Earth which takes 770 years to complete. "
Marvel comics always knew it was there!
BlackNova Traders
The Telegraph is as behind the times as ever. There was an SF novel published last year (Time by Stephen Baxter) which uses Cruithne as a plot device. The actual scientific announcement of Cruithne's somewhat unusual orbit was probably in 1998, but I'm not at home so can't check my references.
UN: anoncoward PW: anoncoward
Many of you interested in anstronomy, or just the planets of the Solar System in general, might find this information very interesting. It's an account of other people who claimed to have discovered that Earth had a second moon.
I'm not trying to discredit the British team's discovery in any way, but it's still a very interesting read.
The main page of the site (called Nine Planets) is here.
as a devoted follower of the Zodiac, and how it affects me (i am totally aware of how my sign interacts with the planets to prevent me from obtaining any sort of good job or even a menial one) i am concerned... will this moon exert any pull over me as i try to appease the gods and the signs? will this alter my chances of attaining zen, although, being a devotee of astrology, i don't follow zen? should i worry that i was born under this moon and will never live long enough to see it return? this is too much for someone with no sense of self-determination!!!!!
sig not found
If memory serves me correctly, Crithne is an intricate part of the Sci-Fi novel, Time by Stephen Baxter. It mentions the horseshoe orbit and some other interesting things known about it. I didn't realise when I was reading it that the thing was for real. Very cool. You should check the book out if you're a Baxter fan. It's very good IMHO.
"Sir, I'd stake my reputation on it."
"Kryten, you haven't got a reputation."
something wicked this way comes...
For it was fortold, that when the two moons shall be seen together that the oceans would rise, and the sun would never come up again. So it is written.
Alternatively if we never see the two moons again might be for the same reason we never see Peter Parker and Spiderman or Bruce and Batman at the same time. When we are only "seeing" the dark side of the moon maybe it's getting into a slightly smaller dress and posing as the other one.
It's turtles all the way down.
Hey!
You get plenty of kids asking for the earth for their birthdays, but on mine I get a moon! Not bad for a start, is it?
:-)
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
The orbit isn't technically *around* the Earth. The orbit is a sort of horseshoe shaped wobbly motion as the moon follows behind the earth.
The moon isn't stable, and it will probably leave it's position within a few hundred years. There's some evidence that the moon was in a similar situation about 100,000 years ago. It sort of falls into place every once in awhile.
As a point of interest, the first object discovered in such a peculiar horseshoe shaped orbit was a moon of an asteroid.
A good website about these strange orbits is:
right here
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Not all of us are astrogeeks here. When does an orbiting body become a moon rather than as asteroid?
~~~~~~~~~
auntfloyd
see http://www.asteroid.yorku.ca/
At approximately 12:50 last night, some sorority girl somwhere screamed in disgust as a frat butt loomed threateningly from a car window. Scientists say the new moon is stationary and appears to have a random orbit. If confronted by the moon, stay calm and move slowly as it may attack. Don't try to feed it as we do not need domesticated moons in the area. Thank you.
Scientists ignited renewed hopes for Extra-Terrestrial Cheese today, as they reported discovery of a second "moon" orbiting the earth. The asteriod, named Cruithne, was first discovered in 1986, but has only recently been subjected to detailed analysis of its highly eccentric orbit and dairyon emissions.
The asteroid will remain in it's orbit for at least 5,000 years. "That's plenty of time for proper ageing," said one astronomer. "And with a diameter of 5 kilometers, this asteroid could supply the earth with Space Cheese for centuries."
Thanks to whoever posted the article "Hidden Agenda".
Born under the wobbling 'moon' Cruithne, you resonate with the sign of the Waffle. Your life is one of inconsistency, you bounce from job to job, relationship to relationship, never quite making that final connection. (On the other hand, you avoid conflict at all cost.) People see you as something of an enigma, following a different path than your peers. Since the conditions at the time of your birth will not come around again for another 700 years or so, you will never find contentment in this life. Hope that you are born again under a planet with a shorter orbit.
The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
The stable points in question are called the familar L4 and L5 (L is for Lagrange the French mathematician who originally discovered them). If I recall correctly, L4 trails the Earth in it's orbit by 60 degrees while L5 precedes the Earth by the same angle.
I suspect that the reason Cruithne wasn't found before is because it probably has an exceptionally elongated orbit and is rather small. It is about the same distance away from Earth as the Sun is!
Incidentally, for those that love to speculate on these things, I don't think it would take much effort to push Cruithne into a more stable orbit. If Cruithne happens to be solid rock (rather than a pile of gravel weakly bound by gravity), then it would make an ideal base for a space station or shipyard.
However, This link says this asteroid actually shares an orbit with the Earth around the sun.
Now, I know that this object has a rather unusual "orbit" of the Earth, but what exactly qualifies it as a bonafied Satellite rather than just a near Earth meteor?
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're dreaming or awake?"
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
The thing is only a few KM's long, you probably won't be able to see it with the human eye. I am surprised it has maintained the orbit. 770 years to complete is pretty unusal, it must have a lengthly orbit..and if so then wouldn't other gravitational forces interact with it?
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
I've gone and higlighted it on my NEO map so you can all see where it is right now. (look near Venus). I presume this is the same object they're talking about.
It's not actually a moon of the earth, at least I wouldn't consider it a moon. Trojan objects aren't bound to their objects in the same way that moons are. Certainly the Earth's influence acts to stabilise the orbit, but if that's teh only criteria for an object being a moon then perhaps we should consider Pluto a Moon of Neptune since pluto is help in the 3:2 resonance with Neptune.
Oddly enough - the 1:1 resonance of trojan objects with respect to the Earth make it almost dynamically impossible for the object to ever become a true satellite of the Earth.
- Pluto's low mass would make it difficult for it to capture an independent Charon.
- Charon has a very high mass relative to its parent body
- In fact, Charon and Pluto revolve about their relative center of mass about halfway between the center of Pluto and Pluto's surface
An interesting note (that would be I would be hard-pressed to claim as evidence supporting or countering my claim that Charon was not captured by Pluto) is that during Pluto's summer, its atmosphere encompasses Charon. It's so thin, though, that it doesn't affect Charon's orbit. During Pluto's autumn, the atmosphere "snows-out", and it won't have any atmosphere during winter. This is one of the reasons why launching a Pluto Fast Flyby was such a hot item a few years back -- they wanted to be able to study the atmosphere before it snowed-out. Now, it's not likely a probe will be able to do the flyby in time, but we can always hope & vote.Christopher A. Bohn
cb
Oooh! What does this button do!?
It's a numbered asteroid (3753) so the orbit is well-determined. Right now it's within 60 degrees of the Sun so that's a little challenging (but Venus is always within 47, Mercury 17ish, so that gives some perspective).
According to the Minor Planet Center it's presently at magnitude 16.2 in Scutum (approx R.A. 18h 34m, Dec. -14 11', but of course that's changing fairly quickly), with a solar distance of 1.205 AU and a distance from Earth of 0.56 AU. It has a diameter of about 17.5 km.
Since it's in Scutum, that means it's also in the Milky Way so the chances of there being few 16th magnitude stars nearby is well, astronomical! :-)
You can get up to date positions, etc. from the website listed above. Please be gentle - it's not a terribly fast server, and a lot of dedicated amateurs/professionals rely on it being available!
I remember reading _Asimov on Astronomy_ many times as a kid. Here's what I remember from one of his articles:
Anyway, as I read it, this asteroid is not a true moon in the sense of being a satellite of our planet. It still revolves around the sun. However, it is in a gravitational relationship with Terra, as our Luna is. In that sense I suppose it is "a moon".
I think in that same book, maybe even that article, Asimov discussed the Trojan satellites. At that point I don't think anyone had discovered any for earth, but dust clouds were detected in the L4 and L5 positions.
Astronomy is only a neglected hobby of mine, so I may not be totally correct. (I almost got a minor in it, but that's been years ago.)
Constitutionally Correct
No, that's not a trojan satellite. A trojan satellite shows up in a place where we would *expect* a satellite, and therefore send probes and astronauts to explore it. It thus gains vital information about us, steals our technology, and uses our DNA to create an army of clones.
They are a serious security threat. The first probe to an apparent sattellite should send a series of ^D to close any trojans before landing.
:)
Large, stable object already in earth orbit. Do you know how much money could have been saved on the ISS if they had only had something to bolt ot down to?
.sig: Now legally binding!
The orbit is not unstable; according to the Cruithne FAQ, it will be stable for at least 10,000 years. The FAQ does not say if anyone has projected Cruithne's orbit back in time, let alone what the results were. Given the chaotic nature of 3-body interactions, we probably cannot determine the origin of Cruithne from its orbit alone. We will have to determine its composition to get an idea of where it came from, and send a probe past it to get some idea of its bombardment history (and thus where in the solar system it's spent most of its past). From this we might... might... be able to make some good guesses as to how long it's been Earth's orbital partner.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
This cluster wasn't hard to explain - the "three body problem" can't be analytically solved for the general case, but it can be easily solved for cases where M1 >= M2 >> M3. This solution shows five points there the gravitational attraction of the two large bodies balance. IIRC all of these points are "stable," but objects can orbit those points for billions of years before friction with the solar wind, gravitational attraction from other objects, etc., cause the object to return to a normal orbit.
The five Lagrange points are named L1-L5. As I recall, if M1 >> M2 then
L1 = on M1-M2 line, opposite of M2 (e.g., "counter-earth")
L2 = on M1-M2 line, between M1 and M2, (e.g., the solar observer satellite)
L3 = on M1-M2 line, beyond M2
L4 = 60 degrees ahead of M2 on M2's orbit
L5 = 60 degrees behind M2 on M2's orbit
Since it's been twenty years since I thought about this, I might have L1-L3 permuted and L4-L5 reversed.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The object was discovered by a British team, but it's "satellite" nature was not known until a Canadian team performed the analysis (contrary to an earlier posting which credited one at a... Turkish university?).
Alors, we have a co-discovery... unreported, as is usual for matters of Canadian pride. But astronomy and other such international sciences is to be about the high purpose of fact and truth and the extension of knowledge's frontiers, not nationality or whatsoever nation a research happens to be working in. Consider all the discoveries by foreign (non-Chilean) researchers in Chile's Atacama Desert...
By the by, there is some interest among a select band of Canadians to launch a probe to the asteroid...
*+]Strange moods are the validation of the universe.[+*
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
- The orbit is inclined 20 degrees to Earth's. Change-of-plane maneuvers are very costly in terms of propellant.
- Being so close to the Sun, there is a smaller likelihood of Cruithne having deposits of the essentials for life-support: water, ammonia or methane ices. These would make it more attractive to set up shop there, because resupply costs would be drastically reduced.
As it is, we're probably better off looking for something like an extinct comet nucleus, regardless of its orbit, if we want to set up a space station far from Earth.--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Wiegert is Canadian, and works with Innanen in York University in Canada. Innanen and Mikkola are Finnish, and Mikkola works in Tuorla Observatory.
The asteroid has a homepage:
http://www.asteroid.yorku.ca/
I think the British researchers photographed the asteroid in 1988, found it from the film plate, and possibly even made observations of its subsequent locations. They did not, however, calculate its orbit, and thus did not actually "discover" the asteroid as "second moon" of Earth. However, according to the rules, they were given the right to name the asteroid.
It should be noted that there are probably thousands of asteroids which have been photographed, but have not been identified as asteroids. For example, Pluto was photographed in the Tuorla Observatory some 8 years before it was photographed and identified as a planet in U.S. There might be several hundred asteroids which have been identified, and their positions have been measured, but the orbit has not been calculated.
Here are some more links on Asteroids /Arcade/aster.html
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http://markn.users.netlink.co.uk
http://www.atarihq.com/2678/revi ews/asteroids.html
http://www.funescape.com/games/as teroids/main.htm - Java required.
-M
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Note also that there is a difference between "equilibrium" and "stability". Equilibrium just means that there exists a static solution to the equations of motion (albeit static in a rotating frame of reference in this case). Stable means that the static solution, if perturbed, will return to the equilibrium instead of drifting off into some dynamic orbit. The L1-L3 points are stable to perturbations in one direction (the tangential, if I recall), but they are unstable to perturbations in the other direction. Consequently, one doesn't expect to find long-lived orbits at these locations. The L4 and L5 equilibria are stable against all perturbations, so one might expect to find objects in long lived orbits at these locations, like the Trojan asteroids, for instance.
The original poster's confusion arose because the earth has two sets of Lagrange points associated with it. One comes from the earth-moon system (in which the earth is M1 and the moon is M2), and the other comes from the earth-sun system (M1==sun, M2==earth). An object at L4 or L5 in the earth-moon system would appear to orbit the earth in synch with the moon, while an object at an earth-sun lagrange point would appear to orbit the sun in synch with the earth. So, it's a little far-fetched to call an object at the earth-sun Lagrange points a "second moon", although such an object is in some sense more deeply associated with the earth than an object in some random solar orbit.
Finally, one should remember that the Lagrange points are solutions of the restricted 3-body problem which presumes that there are only three bodies in the system. Obviously, that isn't the case in our solar system. For instance, I've seen people argue that the earth-moon L4 and L5 points aren't really stable because of the sun's influence. Similarly, the lagrange points between the sun and most of the outer planets are thought to be disrupted by Jupiter's gravity. Consequently, I wouldn't be surprised if Venus' gravity had a tendency to destabilize the earth-sun Lagrange points, resulting in objects trapped there eventually escaping into regular solar orbits.
-r
Heh, just being a proper anoncoward, I thought that I'd point out that another reason that the atmosphere "doesn't affect Charon's orbit" is that the two bodies are syncronous in orbit and rotation. Kinda like how the same side of the moon always faces the earth, the same side of Charon always faces Pluto, and as a bonus, the same side of Pluto also always faces Charon. So there's no relative motion bewtween the two. Think of it as a nonrotating satellite in geosynchronous orbit. Just another Anonymous Coward!
Real men don need no steenkeng artafishul gravety.
The ISS isn't projected to have 'simulated gravity' except in specific lab areas.
.sig: Now legally binding!
- You still have the Zodiacal light fogging your pictures of nebulae; to get away from that, you need to go further from the Sun.
- You can't see much more of the Sun from a 20-degree inclined orbit. For that you really want a polar orbit. If you want to see solar flares and prominences from a different angle, you'd want to be at the Earth-Sun L4 or L5 point instead of on Cruithne, which varies its angular separation from the Earth-Sun line throughout the year.
- You can't see much more of the sky from Cruithne than you can from the Moon's L4 or L5 point, and it's a lot faster to get data back from the shorter distance.
- Last and most significant: what kind of observatory needs to be gotten away from Earth and put on a rock somewhere out in the middle of nowhere, so that you can still only see the half of the sky it doesn't block? Why not a free-flying probe?
An observatory which is best suited to Cruithne than somewhere else would have to have some very specialized requirements. I can't think of anything that has requirements remotely like that. Note: I am not an astronomer.--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Here ya go.
1 1&rtmo=VMM83qJK&atmo=YYk7k37p&pg=/et/00/ 1/25/nmoon25.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=0020682315192
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
Does this mean that Russia can beat JFK's challenge of the early '60s to send men to the moon first?
You still have a chance, Russia! RUN! RUN!
Rob, I submitted the same story with a whole lot more useful links and detail in it.
If you wanted to post it yourself, that's fine; but at least include the links, to make the story more useful to folks.
I believe Venus' L5 point is where Venus Equilateral was placed.
Hmm, a large, stable object already in Earth orbit.
Now where would we find something like that?
Too bad it'd be beyond our technology to get there.
Here's an applet simulating Cruithne's orbit for as long as you care to watch it. I don't know how accurate it is, but it does show the horseshoe orbit and start to fall apart around 5000 years just as the article said. http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/cruithne.html