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Microsoft Funded by NSA, Helps Spy on Win Users?
OpperNerd writes "A French intelligence report has accused U.S. secret agents of working with computer giant Microsoft to develop software allowing Washington to spy on communications around the world. According to the report, 'It would seem that the creation of Microsoft was largely supported, not least financially, by the NSA, and that IBM was made to accept the (Microsoft) MS-DOS operating system by the same administration.'" I personally don't believe this is true, but it's an interesting enough rumor to post for discussion. (SFX: Black helicopters whirring overhead.)
I can believe that there can be something like that in Windows but I doubt that it was possible to hide just anything in DOS. DOS is too small and too simple. Also it was reverse engineered sooooo many times. BTW, does anybody know if there are any pieces of DOS code which purpose is unknown or unclear?
Never attribute to malice what can be accounted for by stupidity.
It would be nice to believe that the buggy security was deliberate, but I just don't.
-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>
Sounds to me like Inspector Clouseau is heading up the French Defence Ministry these days.
Hmmm... the NSA key in WinNT sure springs to mind. And there was that unfortunate "bug" in the first release of Win98, which sent a lot of info to Microsoft, about user activities. Scary.
We'll just have to use Linux and PGP when we plan assassinations and cyber terrorism.
Ost99
The above text is written in Word97.... [Sound of black helicopters]
---- Sig. gone.
Yeah....and then Marilyn Monroe was murdered by J Edgar Hoover, the Martians really are watching us, the NSA can tap any phone in the world and the government is an evil oppressive force that keeps extensive records on the number of times you visit the bathroom..
What a load of BS....
Let's face it....it was Gates who made MS, for better or worse.
Ahhha Funny! =)~
Yes, the theory sounds a bit like something from X-files, and the french are known to, well not exactly like the US,
BUT
When people were speculating about ECHOLON a few years back, many also said it was nothing but conspiracy theories (and the first time its existance was officially admitted, was due to a question in the european parliament).
Secondly, it is generally assumed (or known) that the CIA shifted considerable effort into spying out foreign companies, and passing secret business information on to american companies, when the Cold War faded. That even lead to several american diplomats being "asked to leave" Germany (and yes the French do the same, ask Siemens about the ICE/TGV competition...)
Hence I think it would be wrong to immediately dismiss any thought of cooperation between Microsoft and some US Goverment agency.
I admit I don't believe that IBM was forced to accept MS-DOS as part of some master plan by the NSA to spy on the world, but rather that once MS was becoming so succesful, some agency recognized the potential...
And even if there are no backdoors etc, getting detailed inside knowledge about the protocols, formats, api's etc directly from the source would be a great help to NSA, CIA, etc.
After all, spying really IS the business of those organizations, and thinking they are only interested in other spies and terrorists would be quite naive...
Just my $0.02
Frank
Okay. The bad news is, Microsoft software users are being spied on. But everybody fails to see the practical benefits of this. So here are the Top Five good things about Microsoft and the NSA teaming together:
* All the software will already know your personal habits and information, therefore freeing you from the hassle of having to perform configuration.
* In time, all NSA programming staff will develop chronic psychosis (sp?) from prolonged exposure to the Windows sources.
* They can investigate user habits to find out what kind of graphical user interface is best suited to desktop users. And if even without this information they were able to create such great things as MS Bob (tm) and the Office Assistant, I can't help but wonder what great stuff may come next!
* Windows Millenium will come with earmuffs, to keep the constant noise from the black helicopters from blowing up your inner ear.
And last but not least, the Best Thing about Microsoft and the NSA teaming together:
* If the Shadow Government computers that run Echelon are Windows boxes, then you have nothing to worry about - by the time they recover from the BSOD, you'll already have hung up the phone!
---
(Why only five, you ask? Well, I'm not _that_ creative. It's an open list ("open source", much like Al Gore's campaign site), so feel free to add to it.)
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
The non-existent security of MS-DOS caused an utter lack of security to proliferate around the world.
Whether black helicopters were involved or not is a whole other question...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton
I don't think for a second that the authors are suggesting that DOS contained hidden security back doors. Look at the paragraph where DOS is mentioned.
it would seem that the creation of Microsoft was largely supported, not least financially, by the NSA, and that IBM was made to accept the (Microsoft) MS-DOS operating system by the same administration.
I infer from this that the creation of a dominant controlling software company overseeing PC operating sytems was the aim,and to further this scheme IBM was persuaded to use MS operating sytems on their incumbent PC platform. In this way a spook controlled company would be delivering the OS that was in use on the majority of the worlds desktop computers. Even if that operating system contained nothing shady on initial delivery, maybe enough foresight allowed them to realise that in later years it would be easy enough to slip in features like the famous NSA key as these devices became more powerful and networked.
Establish an initial base camp in the foothills , so to speak and there's no real harm done if nothing comes of it.
Still it all seems a bit far fetched to me. Now, if they'd suggested extraterrestrial involvement or drug money on the other hand . . . :o)
-- Oh Well
The page is blocked by the Chinese government.
(Yes, it actually is. I had to use a proxy in the States.)
Whacked-out theories, anyone?
I can't believe M$ would spy on Windows users.
Beleive it.
Someone had to say it, but here are some reasons to support my theory
- Freely distributable... "Spread it around"
- Official OS of China (don't remember if this turned out to be false...)
- Most of the licensing seems to ask developers to make programs because you need them and distribute them for the good of the community
Hehe...--
linuxisgood:~$ man woman
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
3rd press office in the world. Largely subsidised by the French govt, BTW, but that's (maybe?) another story. Well, they're at least somewhat reliable.
I checked, it's on the AFP wire. Not exactly a tabloid. (Disclaimer: I used to work there)
This is an interesting acusation, and may very well be true, but how does one define "working with"?
1) Call Micros~1 tech support.
2) Sit on hold for hours on end listening to the nail-grating advertisements.
3) Listen to a tech pick up the phone and answer "wusup dude?"
4) Explain how your windows peecee constanly locks up with a blue screen every time the computer actually gets used.
5) Listen to the little dude squirm.
Congradulations, you're "working with micros~1". The broad acusations in this press release could indeed be very true, but not relivant.
Another interesting quote is: " the National Security Agency (NSA) helped install secret programmes on Microsoft software..."
people install applications onto the os everyday! Does this mean there is some kind of link between the program being installed and the OS?
_________________________
You can read more about it on WIRED.
France has also complained about PROMIS.
Bill Hamilton of Inslaw Corporation who was going after the government for stealing PROMIS gave this document to each member of the House Judicary Committee.
and we must not forget that Crypto AG supplied encryption machines to over 120 countries. Officials from Iran, Iraq, and the Vatican, to name a few, relied on Crypto's tech for top secret dispatches and the NSA had a deal with Crypto, which gave them a backdoor that made those encrypted messages easy to decipher and they were not even a US company.
Also what about Lotus Notes' NSA backdoor that is in international versions of the software.
Noel
RootPrompt.org -- Nothing but Unix
kayaking
Not true. The NSA and CIA are not allowed to spy on internal matters. This was backed up by Congress in either the late 50's or 60's (I'm foggy right know on which).
That was one of the big deals about them spying on email. They aren't supposed to do that to Americans and some American mail might have gone through foriegn servers and hence been seen. The FBI generally handles the internal matters that would be handled by the NSA if they could work inside US borders.
Microsoft would never to anything to compermise our privacy. Microsoft is the leader in OS....
<<ding>>>
A fatal exception 0E has occured at F0AD:42494C4C
The current application will be terminated.
* Press any key to terminate the current application.
* Press CTRL+ALT+DELETE again to restart your computer.
You will lose any unsaved information in all applications.
Press any key to continue
Damnit! where the hell is the "any" key?
AdFuel
About a year ago, there were several stories about how the Department of Motor Vehicles in four states were selling citizens' personal information, including the drivers' license photos, to a private company in New Hampshire (Image Data). The focus of this company was a system that would allow merchants to visually identify consumers, via the photos, and as such (it was alleged) would reduce fraud.
0 7.html
I watched a newscast shortly after the initial story broke, where an official from one of the four states was *very* ticked off at this company for misleading him with respect to their source of funds. Apparently, it was discovered that the company had received about $1.5 million from the U.S. Secret Service. Read about it at http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/216
So, while the notion that the NSA is in bed with Bill might seem a little far-fetched, this incident with Image Data makes the NSA/Microsoft issue seem a little more plausible.
Here's one for you. Maybe the NSA is funding the Cult of the Dead Cow so that they can make tools for them! It makes sense. They couldn't have made BO and BO2K by themselves. It's just too well done.
It has to be the work of a evil agency bent on getting the UN into power as the one world government (never mind that the bulk of UN troops are United States AND the United States has a ultimate veto power in the Security Council).
I think stories like this are generally a little far fetched. As for the NSA key I think the Crypto Newsletter from Counterpane said it best. If you want to put a key into a program you don't put your agency name on it where anyone can see it.
This is the NSA. They do know a little about security and something this stupid is a little below them. After all if Windows is as insecure as everyone keeps saying why do they need to put some secret key in? They can just go in like any script kiddie and see what they want.
As for the DOS argument about trying to get a standard system in place... was DOS really that powerful or was I missing something? Windows I could kinda see but DOS? Never mind most of the major corporations they would want to spy on at the time were using UNIX or some other kind of heavy duty OS.
How did the NSA know that Microsoft would be well recieved? Maybe everyone would fall in love with the MAC and use it instead and then the NSA would be up a creek. Also the countries that the NSA would be most interested in (Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Cuba, etc) can't have computers exported to them anyway. This whole thing is full of holes if you just take a moment to think about it from a logical point of view.
If you think about it, if your a large company and you are looking to bundle an OS with your PC, that's a HUGE decision. Are you really going to go with choice B just because you can't immediatly get hold of choice A? It makes for an interesting story, but it just doesn't ring true if you think it through.
Large corporation or not, business is still conducted by people. The ability to feel 'safe' when dealing with a company or individual is crucial when you are making a deal. It is not at all far fetched to me that as a result of this incident, as well as their response from Microsoft and Gates that they decided that Microsoft (and Gates) were people that were a better fit with their way of doing things.
Yeap? Could be. But there's is no need to show Microsoft looking bad. It is BAD by itself. Or you have never seen small packs running out of your computer, without your clear knowledge, into some location in the Net? That happens with some Windows soft... (And why they need this damn GID anyway? :) )
naivete paranoia
---------------------------------
ok, maybe it's not art.
numb
In other words, Windows 2000 is killing Linux now, so Slashdot has to post whatever it can find that makes Microsoft look bad.
WTF? You've been able to buy it for, what, 2 whole days now (release date was 2/17, right?). Realistically, how many people are going to replace their Linux and FreeBSD x86 servers with Windows 2000? That's a pretty massive risk, not to mention the enourmous amount of downtime and integrartion problems (a lot more than some companies - like ISPs, can handle, and more than any company wants to have). And of course Win2000 is not running on Alpha or UltraSPARC (to mention 2 popular server architechures), so if you've got any of those around, you'll SOL (not to mention PowerPC, HPPA, etc)
I suspect that that vast majority of people using Windows 2000 are going to be people upgrading from 95/98/NT. And in the single user area, you can still dual boot, y'know. Personally, I'm waiting for at least 6 months to see if major problems crop up, then I'll replace 98 with 2000, and play Windows games on an SMP machine (hopefully by then I will have a dedicated Linux box)
The article is mostly the antology of a paranoia tale that roamed before Net days. "Why MS-DOS has so many holes? Because the NSA, CIA, FBI, the Shadow Government are behind this..."
It is no more than this. It seems that jounalists, without having ANYTHING new to publish, decided to hunt down on more deeper waters. The result? They are publishing urban legends as news...
But... Don't trust more Microsoft by this. THEY DO A LOT to get some info about you and your use of computers. The "lemedofoyou" philosophy of their OSes hides a dangerous system of information gathering. Besides more and more they bound this philosophy on your computer use. Wanna get a patch? "lemedofoyou". Wanna get a new program? "lemedofoyou" Wanna search for something on the net? "lemedofoyou"
But for "lemedofoyou" to work they must know something about you. And they gather some info. Presently it looks that this information gathering is not very substantial. Maybe because it is gathered by a few bits each time. So the whole may be much worser.
And this information can be used for very dangerous purposes. It can be sold to NSA, CIA, FBI, the Shadow Government... Or worse. It can leak and be sold to snake oil sellers, major corporations, religious sects and even leak into the criminal environments. Imagine someone getting thousands of credit card numbers from satisfied Microsoft customers.
Of course! It all makes sense now! Microsoft really pioneered distributed.net, and is using MS Office as a client to process Echelon data. I wondered my PC kept getting slower.
...to destroy the productivity of the US workforce.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
However, right now, the US gov't is engaging in activities both in this country and others which in 5 years will eventually get reported and dismissed as "conspiracy theories" and in 20 years will be found to be fact, and those same people who were calling them conspiracy theories will then apologize for the "one time" error the government made and then believe they won't do it again. (after all, the gov't SAID they wouldn't do it again....).
The problem is, our government does horrible things as a part of POLICY, and this will never change until we get a real democracy.
Ignore Alien Orders
(Moral of the story: decompile you product and remove any strings that a paranoid might interpret incorrectly).
See, this shows just how beautiful CS companies can be. Not only can Microsoft declare their programs the most secure, best, or whatever (and no one can refute it without cracking it), but the other side can make outlandish claims (and there's no way to refute it without looking at the source). If anyone makes these claims about Linux, Apache, etc, we can easily say, "Here's the source code, point out where it's spying on you and we'll remove it." All Microsoft can say about this is, "Um, no we're not. Buy Windows 2000 though."
Nice to know they're using the latest and greatest hardware....
What would MSDOS have to do with spying on communications back when IBM included it with their PCs?
It wasn't even a network operating system, and the Internet was not exactly a widely used public network at the time.
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
I think the NRO handles the visible light and radar reconnaissance satellites and the NSA handles the SIGINT/COMINT eavesdropping satellites.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Gary Kildall, the author of CP/M, was in the Naval Reserve and was on the faculty of the Naval Postgraduate School. Bill Gates was a young college dropout from a wealthy family. I think the NSA would have been more comfortable working with Kildall and Digital Research.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
On the whole I agree with this poster's complaints. I have said the same thing many times.
HOWEVER.
I was not attempting to do anything with that post but paint a general picture in the abstract. I have dozens of posts currently on /. and many of them have the very facts for which you ask.
Ignore Alien Orders
No, you mixed it with american intelligence...
Szo
Red Leader Standing By!
RTFM = Read The Manual