Slashdot Mirror
Chessbase and Christmas Puzzlers
A number of you might remember our Christmas Chess Puzzler. Frederic Friedel and I have stayed in contact over the last couple of months and he recently put together a piece talking about the puzzler and Slashdot, as well as narratives of other chess puzzlers. Frederic runs Chessbase, one of the best chess resources I've seen. That leads to an interesting question: Would you folks like occasional puzzlers like this? Post your feeling on it below.
Chess is a fine game though I find the rules to be a little ad hoc and for me this makes the game less than elegant. Go, on the other hand, has a tiny set of very elegant and natural rules and yet it has some of the richest gameplay that can be found on a board. For those who haven't met the game yet it's played with a large rectangular grid. Players take turns in placing stones of their colour (black or white) one by one on the board. Two neighbouring stones are considered to be connected. A connected group is an army. Free grid points adjacent to an army are called liberties. An army with no liberties is considered captured and is taken from the board. That's basically all there is to it - the rest are details. It appeals to a lot mathematicians because of the topological nature of the rules! It's the national board game of Japan with a big following there. It seems less well known in the US which is a great pity. Another cool thing about Go is that in a few days a human get up to the standard that computers are at. It's an amazing challenge to write a good Go program! I had a quick look for links with introductions. This seems OK. For obvious reasons it's quite hard to do a good web search for information about Go.
-- SIGFPE
I like the idea of puzzles (or has been suggested by many, a puzzle section). I'd just like to add in a plug for my favorite classic game, backgammon. The fun thing about backgammon problems is that there often is no one right answer, and hearing other people propose different solutions and justify them often makes me think about my own answer more.
At least mafia-owned pizzarias make excellent pizza. Compare to Bill Gates.
I went and read the Chessbase stuff. Wow, do I feel ignorant now. "reciprocal zugzangs..." WTF??
I like puzzles, but I think I would do better with little programming puzzles - like, write an ANSI C program to do "X" using only the standard libraries that is no longer than 250 characters... for various interesting hacks "X".
That I could tackle. But this level of chess is like high-energy physics - I don't even have the vocabulary.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
I think puzzles, brain teasers and the like are excellent, but I realize that some may not agree. You should give puzzles their own icon so that they can be filtered out, but I would definately say go for it.
vi is my shepard, I shall not font.
It's really just about ego - who wouldn't kill to tell their grandchildren that "I solved the Slashdot Christmas Chess puzzler of 2000".
Drag n' Drop DVD Recommendations
The comments section and structure would be ideal for team puzzlers. Instead of each /. reader competing against all the others, a very difficult multi-stage puzzle that could be taken as a team would be great.
/. readers both interested and capable to be able to participate. I also wouldn't want a puzzle to get so difficult that most of them would never get solved. Surely being able to solve all of them in a day or two would be a sign they were too easy, but the opposite extreme would be worse.
Cryptography would be an ideal puzzle, too. Maybe start with something as simple as frequency analysis with nulls and a mix of word and letter substitutions, and then move into more difficulty as time goes on. People could post their progress or theories as threads, working towards a solution as a thread gets deeper.
The only flaws with this I can think of is the subset of readers able to participate, and coming up with the puzzles. I wouldn't want only the 0.05% of
The family of puzzles in which you are given and "end position" and have to reconstruct what happened are called retrograde analysis, a facinating sub-genre of puzzles. Chess is perhaps the best known for retrograde puzzles, but I have seen puzzles for checkers, bridge, Scrabble and other games. A classic "retrograde" question regarding chess is given some board position, can you demonstrate either (1)all the pieces on the board are the original piece or (2)some piece on the board has been promoted from a pawn. Other typical questions might include "Has white castled?"
I don't have any puzzles at my finger tips, but I'll try to see if I can post some later.
---
My UID is the product of 2 primes.
So that's why we couldn't finish our game last week...
"The Probability of Mischief varies inversly with respect to the proximity of an authority figure."
> What is the game theoretic value of Chess? { 1 = White wins, 0 = White loses, 0.5 = Draw }
;-)
Uhm, puzzle implies "a challengle solveable within our lifetime" and I dont see Chess being solved within the next 100 years.
Besides, Go is a much more interesting game
Cheers
Sorry for the pun :-) (For the uninformed, Go pieces are called 'stones' )
I too find Go more challengling. Chess seems to be "static" while Go seems more dynamic.
> For those of you not familiar with it, Go is a Japanese equivalent to chess.
I was going to write a Go game, until I realized the complexity is WAY PAST chess. Sure, Go only has 2 pieces, but on a 19x19 board, the number of legal moves after a few turns is ridiculously large. THEN throw in strategy, and you can get the picture.
Anyone know of a free Go-Online service? It would be great to be able to play with people around the world 24 hrs/day.
Cheers
I read about the previous year's chess puzzle the last time this story came up. The question was about what the young chess player said to the author... does anyone know what the answer was? It's bugging me :)
Not strictly true. The Japanese equivalent of chess is a game named shogi, a game that is much more "deep" than chess due to the fact that captured pieces can "parachute" back onto the board at almost any position. It's a very interesting game, although arguably not as deep as go.
I'm a Go fan as well but often can't get into it because the popular consensus is that your enjoyment of Go is proportional to your expertise at it. (Beginners dislike it, experts revel in it) This is opposite that of the typical Chess experience :-) Anyway, I get frustrated at the deep strategical thought required for successful Go-playing... I'm a much more slash-and-hack kind of person who enjoys Chess better. :-)
While I don't agree with gid-foo (simply because I suck at math ;-), I would love to see a section devoted to puzzles, provided they weren't all the same type of puzzles all the time. Variety is good.
(As if I need another reason to waste time online...)
Joe Random
The survey's been getting pretty lame lately. Replace it with a puzzle.
What is Cheesebase?
After busting my ass for around 5 hours on this puzzle.. I almost slammed my head on the monitor when I read that white was supposed to be mated..
/.
Personally I really like chess and I wouldnt mind a few puzzles on
BUT.. for those geeks that dont like chess, the puzzles should be in a separate section.. just to keep the main page 100% geek friendly
Puzzles are good... however, they shouldn't be in some other language such as chess-speak :-)
- 8Complex
you should definitely pay the site regular visits if you are interested in science, technology, computers, programming and weird stuff in general.
Sort of makes you step back and realize the site never really lost the wide ranging appeal wich brought most of us here in the first place. Of note " Weird stuff in general. sort of sums it all up.
Great article, Although I never even came close to finding the correct solution.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
I agree. Go is far more interesting than chess. To me, chess is just one big tree search problem. Go is far more beautiful than that.
There are two main online Go servers:
IGS http://igs.joyjoy.net/
NNGS http://nngs.cosmic.org/
The best way to use these servers is with a client program. There are several clients available which run under Linux. My favorite is CGoban. kgo is also quite good.
Good puzzles of all kinds are great ways to excersise the mind.
There should be two simple ground rules:
All puzzles should have answers that the poster has verified before hand. There is nothing worse than the puzzles floating around the internet that have no answers. Major brain drain.
Puzzles should not be too easy (nor too hard) for the slashdot crowd. If the puzzles can be answered in 5 minutes, then where is the challenge. Likewise, if they can't be solved, why bothered.
Good Luck
Steven
Yeah, Mr. Smullyan is great for logic puzzles. He's one of several prof's that I would *love* to take a course from!
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
1.d3 e5! 2.Kd2 e4 3.Kc3 exd3 4.b3 dxe2 5.Kb2 exd1N!! mate
The way of this solution is that mandatory
criteria are that black plays only with
one pawn and the white king should be on
2nd or 3rd rank to receive a check. We find
out that it's impossible just to stalemate the
king ready for a mate and we have to join in
some other pieces.
By analogy with previous puzzle we attempt to
join in the queen and use the d-file. Alas,
it won't help. Then we try to use other
pieces and when we get to bishop on f8, it
finally gets there.
Roman
-- "If you had fallen into a shit pit during a battle, lick yourself off and move on." - Jaroslav Hasek
Send me mail, Joel. Maybe we can get something cool together. [frederic@chessbase.com]
I think I emailed CmdrTaco about this in the past, and I repeat my sentiments. A puzzle section would be simply awesome!
There's no reason for a sig here.
zugzan (n): pronouced TZOOK-zvang (at least where I come from). This is any position in which the player who must moves is in an apparently reasonable position, however all of his legal moves result in death. Basically it means that the player is forced to screw himself over.
There's no reason for a sig here.
You can play Go at playsite.com I think it's a little more fun than chess.
Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
I liked the Christmas puzzler. Just put 'em in their own category, so those of us with accounts can filter 'em if we so choose. And remember: make sure they're suitably geekish. Chess is definitely a good place to start.
(Humming "One Night in Bangkok" for some reason...)
-W-
Is it all journey, or is there landfall?
--Ellison & van Vogt, 'The Human Operators'
I like puzzlers, but I think that all types of puzzles should be considered, not just chess. As fas as time wasters, I have seen many good java rubbicks cubes. Time wasters are great.
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
For sure, I get too much sleep as it is, anyhow :)
1 vote for "yeah"
Yea....Sure....beats that goddamn Dilberito crap we're getting lately.
Chaos, Mayhem, and Destruction: Not
Math puzzles, lots of math puzzles.
I love the puzzlers on a lot of the websites, even some question of the day type things.
But please, please, keep them relatively intelligent, and perhaps find a way to ban comments from appearing on them for a brief period of time so you don't have people shouting out the answers. And then whoever submits the first post (Still have the comments, just hide them) wins a "Slashdot headline" award, where it says they're name and their solution. Please deposit $0.02 and drive through, thank you.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
I think that these types of puzzles should get their own section on slashdot. That way all the people who hate them can ignore them and the rest of us can try to figure them out. Also there should be more than just chess problems, there should be a good variety. This way different people can apply their skills. Not everybody is good at chess and not everybody is good with words.
Nascantur in Admiratione. (Let them be born in Wonder)
Or something like the online version of Chu-Chu Rocket. :)
What might be a nice idea would be to have some ongoing puzzles, of the 'classic' variety, like the knight's tour and such. These sorts of puzzles have been around forever and a day, and it's not so much a matter of solving them, as all the implications of the solution.
In a book I read recently, there were quite a few connections drawn between chess and chess puzzles, and the mathematics behind things like the knights tour and the mathematics behind other forms of 'entertainment' like classical music and such.
These sorts of puzzles are likely to inspire conversations on those related topics, and many of them could be quite enlightening..
Perhaps there could even be a small karma reward (like 1 point) for each regular puzzle, and some random awards for contributions to the ongoing puzzles?
B.
Just don't steal then from CarTalk! :^)
You seem to have issues with this thing that transcend ordinary indifference. Get help.
Yes, I love puzzles.
You could mix then up.
Chess, physics, logic, then some code perl, c.
You could even have a contest for the best submitted puzzle.
I would love a logic puzzle on a regular basis.
* "Uncle this droid is malfunctioning" -- Luke Skywalker
You'd think you'd go back to your masturbation by now.
Personal note to CmdrTaco: I wish you the best of luck in finding an ergonomic keyboard. After all, if you got carpal tunnel syndrome, your sex-life would be finished.
That would be wonderful!
keep that in mind when picking the puzzles. i wouldnt mind if they were some times programer based but i would also like(and i am sure others woudl too) some other topics for puzzles. how about:
chemistry (organic systesis)
math (proofs, logic, calc)
etc...
Basiclly keep it geeky and keep it changing.
:)
I think puzzles would be a great addition to Slashdot, just as their own section so they can be filtered.
The real challenge would be to find tough puzzles, or better yet, puzzles with multiple solutions, some easy, some more challenge.
And I suppose the bonus question could always be "Code a program to solve/demonstrate this puzzle", if it is such a puzzle type.
--
Evan Jones http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/Students/ejones/
"Computers are useless. They can only give answers." - Pablo Picasso
Evan Jones http://evanjones.ca/
"How are you? How are your sons?" asks Igor. "You have three sons as I remember, don't you? But I have forgotten their ages."
"Yes, I do have three sons," replies Pavel. "The product of their ages is equal to 36." Looking around and then pointing to a nearby house, Pavel says, "The sum of their ages is equal to the number of windows in the building over there."
Igor thinks for a minute and then responds, "Listen, Pavel, I cannot find the ages of your sons."
"Oh, I am very sorry", says Pavel; "I forgot to tell you that my oldest son has red hair."
Now Igor is able to find the ages of the brothers. Can you do it?
Solution (From The Chicken from Minsk by Yuri Chernyak & Robert Rose)
If you like puzzles, you may like my page <shameless plug>Playful Thoughts</shameless plug>.
Go lends itself much more naturally to
:-)
standalone "puzzler" problems. Also, the
proportion of Go players is higher -- and
growing -- in hackerdom than in the general
population, so it's not as off-the-beaten-trail
as one might think for Slashdot.
The immediate readership for Go problems may
be smaller than for chess, but those readers
will be much more passionate participants,
proportionally, and their numbers will be increasing all the time...
Vote Go!
http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel
Hmm, /. ate my earlier entry, and was down for awhile...
/. history), puns and word plays, math/physics, other games, logic-twisters, and <shudder> java(script) applets/stuff..
Yes, to multiple puzzles, if they get their own section (easier to filter out), with big ones (say cash prizes, or traditionally hard ones) posted to the main page.
Make an *easy* way to just read the challenge, and possibly delay the feedback portions for say 24 hours, to allow people a shot at solving it themselves.
NOT JUST CHESS!!!
Include code snippets, fun with perl (from
Does anyone *not* like puzzles? We're a puzzling populace...
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
What a cool idea - but let's make sure that it isn't just chess-based, but a bit wider. The types of puzzles New Scientist publishes (their enigma section I think) are very cool.
Damn, missed it by one.
Warning: Please reply carefully. Otherwise, you just feed the troll ;)
And while you're at it, find other ways to make all my time dissappear. Maybe some /. Flash games where Tux runs around and kills the Backstreet Boys or something. Sharkey
http://www.badassmofo.com
I read Slashdot for the dirty pictures^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcool interviews and news thats not normally covered elsewhere in one convenient location(Transmeta, Tux, nanotech, obituaries, Gnome vs KDE, nude Natalie Portman, decent SF reviews, the political economy of the Net, neat stuff), but I gave up chess right after I first got laid. Nothing against the occasional chess post, but at best don't even think about chess posts more often than monthly.
Hey, #21 and #23. If I was into Statistics, I'd be there...
Warning: Please reply carefully. Otherwise, you just feed the troll ;)
Anyone into logic/chess puzzles should check out the books by Raymond Smullyan. His best ones are set in some famous literary environment (e.g. Alice in Wonderland, Sherlock Holmes, Arabian Nights, etc.) in which he writes a clever story filled with logic and/or chess puzzles. His chess puzzles are sort of the reverse of the usual in that they ask you to figure out what happened, not figure out how to win. Pretty cool stuff.
Perhaps there should be an automatic moderate-down if the |distinct words|:|lines| ratio is a bit low...
Why not a weekly puzzle, with the answer given the next week? But not just chess puzzles. If your looking for a puzzle editor, I'd be honored to take a run at it!
Am I the only one around here who prefers Go to Chess?
/.. I believe chess-puzzles could be enjoyed by a lot more of the slashdotreaders. Unless you want two add two sections of course...
Nope, there are at least two of us. I like chess, but go is just a lot more fun.
That said I don't think go-puzzles should be on
Maybe there should be a poll to index which kind of puzzles are liked best?
If there is hope, it lies in the trolls.
I love mind puzzles, logic problems, and the like. In fact, I think that a rather significant percentage of the geek community is similarly inclined. It would be awesome if /. made a section JUST for puzzles and such, where people could post and respond, maybe have contests, whatever.
I like puzzles as much as anyone. However, the last time I played chess... Well let's just say I suck and leave it at that. However, wht I think would be very fun is something like the Programmer's Challenge from MacTech Magazine. They would put out a programming problem and you had a month to come up with a solution. Then they picked the fastest (usually) correct solution, and printed it. ( Sometimes the criteria were different. like speed - space used, or something. ) Anyway, I sure think something like that would be cool for slashdot.
Real geeks play Go! Seriously, if you're into board games at all, you should give Go a chance. There's a burgeoning online community that includes a newsgroup (rec.games.go) and the Internet Go Server (IGS). Also, check out Samarkand for cool Go goodies.
By the way.. is this market research day on /.
The puzzlers should have varying levels of dificulty within each puzzle. So that part 1 can be easily solved but part 3 probably won't be solved without some colabrative effort on the message boards. It's that sort of interactivity that would make these puzzles better then just buying a puzzle book.
I'd rather have puzzlers that aren't solved at all (until the answers are given out next week) but provoke a lot of discussion rather then an easy puzzle that's solved in the "first post" and every other post after that.
For those of you not familiar with it, Go is a Japanese equivalent to chess. Some claim that Chess is a distant descendant of it. It's much more artistic than Chess -- you can tell a whole lot about a person from their Go playing.
--
-- Slashdot sucks.
I parsed that s/Chess/Cheese/g. I suggest re-reading the blurb doing the same.
Puzzles are cool. Especially when I need something besides work to do...!
"Mastroid": have discovered a truly marvellous solution to this problem, which however this textbox is not large enough to contain.
Now that's a classic.