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Mating Human Cells With Circuitry
casper911 writes, "Looks like the making of a real $6 Million Dollar Man may not be so far-fetched. The University of California in Berkeley has found a way to mate human cells with circuitry." That's it: Screw wearables. I want the hardware wired right in.
get a tattoo reading
:-)
This human includes bionic chips developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors.
Just kidding gang
The scary part is when you look at exactly what you're talking about doing -- downloading information DIRECTLY into the brain.
I sure hope that data is filtered or authenticated somehow - otherwise you could get some "unexpected" things along with that wetware kung-fu class...
Imagine if this becomes a reality the new definition of virus-writers, writing virii that "crash" the psyche of the recipient.
This would be supremely useful technology - but the consequences of it "falling into the wrong hands" are staggering to me.
Of course, this is still VERY far off, and we're extrapolating sci-fi style -- but you gotta take into account the misuses of the technology as well as the potential gains.
More direct communication with cells can be super useful for such a range of apps: wet neural-net research, neuron growth, specific cell therapy, etc...
So, if you're interested, here's some (although odl at this point) links to things that are going/have gone on in the pasadena neck-o-the-woods:
-rob
cybercuzo: but in the matrix, it doesnt matter how fast you are
Sorry I should have been more clear. You're absoultely right, because it was all mental this is why it worked for Neo. The muscles did have to be stimulated(?) because they had never acutally been used so that he could walk around the ship.
Genom:Imagine if this becomes a reality the new definition of virus-writers, writing virii that "crash" the psyche of the recipient.
You have a couple of options in the way of crashing the psyche. You can simply overload it with new data. You can insert new contradictory data. You can insert a large number of false, but very similar data sets into the brain (especially if these are close to some knowledge the target is knows or is trying to learn). And of course you can mix these. All this assumes that you can't add understanding, as well as knowledge.
The real question is how much of knowledge or understanding comes from the firing of synapses or how much interconects represent, and how much neurotransmitters play a part. For example, given that every time a synapse fires/does not fire that interconnect is strengthend or weakend, one might by being able to pass electicity into brain cells, be able to stimulate or inhibit the firing of certain synapses (maybe even without the neurotransmitter that might normaly help it). Presuming you could know what which synapse repesents you could in theory covince someone of something, or you could disuade them of something. The same applies if it turns out that you could cause the construction of new interconnects by stimulating a cell with the right current.
Potentially, if you had enough time and could create new interconnects, you could completely rewire pretty much all of someones brain. How's that for a virus?! But this sounds like it would take much more time than a simple download.
--locust
I'm not so sure, as I think about this that it would be all that useless. Consider that analysts are paid to filter information. One of the limiting factors for such a person is how much input they get/can process from thier natural senses. So write the info straight into thier brain, thus getting around the bandwidth restriction. Or let say you want to look at a problem domain in an entirely new way. So you replace a bunch of declarative memory in someone with a great deal of experience in some other field, and see what kind of inferences they make. This is of course abstracting away how hard or easy it might actually be to do something like that.
The other point which I made earlier, is that some kinds of procedural memory require (i.e. Kung-fu) might required more than just a brain dump.
As for your point about adding interconnects, how else would we be downloading the information in the first place?
The tech. discussed in the article has to do with stimulating cells to accept impulses. Thus one could cause some synapses to fire and others not to. One could, in princle, train the human mind the same way that one trains some neural nets these days[1]. Thus existing interconnects are messed with as opposed to new ones being formed. This can be combined with the injection of specific neuro-transmitters to do lower/raise the fireing thresholds of specific synapses. The question then becomes at what point do new interconnects grow? And how much knoweldge is stored by which interconnect. We get into the problem that has arisen in the study of neural nets. We just don't know how the net stores the information, we just know that its in there somewhere, and the net makes the right inference.
Bottom line, I'm not sure that my original assertion about not being able to create new interconnects is reasonable. Lets say that you find an arangement of neurons, in a specific brain region that you localize some knowledge in. You can then stimultate a similar set of cells in the same brain region of someone else to try to get the same config. But each person is different, so you might turn someone who wants to learn kung-fu into stephen hawking as opposed to bruce lee. Vice versa for mathematics.
--locust
[1] This is paterned upon how the human mind works, so we've come full circle to a certain extent.
I'm not sure its quite that easy. Lets say you do download 'Kung-Fu'. You still don't have the agility, strength, or anything else to actually do 'Kung-Fu'. Your muscles 'remeber' how far they have been streched, and become accustomed to certain repeated movements. The reason it worked for Neo is that he didn't have to train his muscles (though they did regrow/train them to some extent). I guess you would have to program your entire body.
Now in the case of other knowledge, its entirely possible that one might d/l all of mathematics and not understand any of it. Your brain might simply not have the interconects that need to grow in order to think about a given subject. Similarly, one could d/l all of human history, be able to give names and dates and places of interest, but not be able to reason about those, thus missing the analysis that someone who understands history could make. I don't know how you could download understanding short of instructing the growth of interconects in the brain.
--locust
doesn't that open the possibility of shorting yourself out? And isn't the human body made up of lots of water? :)
This technology looks like it may have another use: by implanting cell-chips into the brain and interfacing them with an exterior device, and with proper training of the implantee, you create a direct-input device. The real bitch is getting the training right.
If they can do this to nerve cells, you can get all kinds of interesting implants. A cell-chip implant into my aural nerves? Crank Slayer up to 10 and not damage my normal hearing? Woohoo! Or do the same with optic nerves (very carefully) allowing them to pick up...say, text? From wherever?
The only problem is, this is one-way technology. It doesn't allow the computer to read the condition of the cell, which means you don't have neural control. Yet.
Finding God in a Dog
The reason it worked for Neo is that he didn't have to train his muscles (though they did regrow/train them to some extent). I guess you would have to program your entire body.
hmm... an interesting hypothesis, but consider for a minute my alternate proposal...
After lengthy consideration, it is my belief that neo's kung fu abilities had less to do with the state of his body, and perhaps a little more to do with the fact that the matrix is a work of fiction.
can you say fiction?
perhaps you might want to consider getting outdoors a little more often...
I believe the problem with operations such as this are skin/component interface is very easily infected. Bacteria tends to get between the two surfaces, and then everything goes a bit gooey.
Of course, you could instead create a skin 'pocket' to slip the watch component into leaving just the face visible, but then what's the advantage to just keeping the watch in your pocket?
The REAL innovations in fields like this are going to be in truly interfacing the watch with our nervous-system (change watch display modes by just thinking about it, anyone? Tap into the bodies bio-electric power source to save having to change that pesky battery every couple of years?)
--
The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
Hmmm.
Implant a wafer thin watch; essentially a electroluminescent LCD display, in which applied voltage gets sections to light up. Insert it below the skin, so that it is still slightly visible. The glowing sections, however, would be readable through your skin, except when you shine bright light directly on it. In which case you'd just put your other hand over, to provide shade.
Would this work?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I've checked the original press elease from UC berkeley. It seems to be about putting a cell on a chip and controlling its membrane potential (voltage) with electronic circuits. It probably has nothing to do with cybernetic control or neural implants (yet). The following are quotes from the press release:
"UC Berkeley's bionic chip took three years to build using silicon microfabrication technology. It is transparent, so it can be studied by microscope, and measures about one hundredth of an inch across. The much tinier cell, which measures about 20 microns across, or one thousandth of an inch, is not visible to the naked eye. It sits in a hole in the center of the chip and is kept alive with an infusion of nutrients."
"Cell membranes allow certain materials in and keep others out depending on the needs of the cell. The bionic chip can open and close a cell membrane in milliseconds, allowing for a very precise control never before possible. Once in place in the circuit, the cells themselves are considered bionic since they can be operated in this way by computer control."
This technology, if as they suggest would like to target entire tissues, could be brought to bear against diseases such as irregular heart beats, diabetes, Marfan's syndrome, MS, Parkinson's and if he lives long enough could pull the chair out from under Stephen Hawkings.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
Of course it's revolutionary! I'll spell it out for you. This discovery combines two important things: electronics and really small stuff! The only drawback is that the scientists haven't managed to graft the prefix "nano" onto this discovery, since their circuitry works on the cellular and not the subcellular level.
Think of the possibilities, man! Soon, we'll be able to put all sorts of stuff in all sorts of places where it doesn't belong. Have you no sense of progress?!!!
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
I'm not usually one to cry wolf everytime a new technology is introduced, but this is scary.
The article says "By controlling the chip with a computer, scientists say they can control the activity of the cell." Complete control over a cell's activities. Do you all remember the X-Files where Skinner is "infected" with cells that the bad guy can control remotely? At will, the person in control could cause these foreign cells to clot all his blood vessels.
I'm certainly no biologist, but stuff like this doesn't seem too far off if we can "control a cell's activities."
We've handled possibly dangerous technological advances before. People don't routinely detonate nuclear weapons today, even though they've been around for 50 years. But how will society manage this kind of technology responsibly? How can we protect ourselves against possible bioterrorists?
This is Fox News reporting; I'd go to a better source (like the actual journal) for the real story.
Most cells, especially nerve cells, have a 'resting membrane potential'. Ions (sodium, potassium, chloride, hydrogen) move in and out, changing the electrical potential. Certain concentrations reach threshold potentials, propagating waves across the cell surface opening more ion channels, affecting membrane proteins and whatever. Glass pipettes have been used for a long time to inject or detect ions within a cell, measuring or altering the potential at our own fancy. This research they describe is probably very worthy, but much of the reaction I've seen is sensational nonsense. (Thank you Fox. Actually it's the whole darn media.) My point- reality is often better than science fiction, and it's always better than what the press shows us.
make sure you get a really good firewall .... the last thing you want to do is wake up some morning in some foreign country in a pool of vomit missing a kidney because some script kiddy got root and went on a joy ride, or you find yourself falling asleep on the freeway because the guy you just cut off is mounting a DOS attack ....
I remember an old B-movie on the sci fi channel about this topic. Some of the stuff was implausible, for all the reasons you mentioned (for example, the woman in this movie was taught how to be a world-class sniper). However, some of the stuff seems like it still might work, and be very cool, for instance, they taught her like 25 modern languages.
While physical learned skills would probably not do well to be directly dumped into the brain, things like additional languages, which is essentially just a lookup table in the human brain anyway, would probably work out pretty well.
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
It seems to me that this technology could become a great building block for nanotech development.
For example; take a plain old bacteria or yeast cell that has been genetically modified to produce a particular protean structure or carbon chain. When placed in solution with other cells producing matching 'components' you can possibly create self-assembling nanostructures of various types if the different parts happen to meet up correctly. This is great, except you have no way to turn the thing on or off and must count on chance to get the results you want -- until now!
With this technology you could line up the cells in the order assembly should occur (right, a microbial assembly line) and then activate them in turn while using some method of moving the resulting 'components' to the next 'assembly station' as they are created. To move the parts, perhaps a similar method of electronic control could be applied to cilia?
Anyway, this could be a major cool advance -- health care and neural-cyber connection benefits aside...
Jack
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
I hate to think what would happen if your watch implant got caught on something. *Shudder*
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I was thinking that this new technology might make that infection problem easier to deal with, perhaps do some sort of weld with the skin...
;)
And the power source would definitely either have to be biopower or maybe nanotech turbines in the bloodstream, maybe just put one of those things in those watches that wind themselves in em, that's somethign we've had for years...
Next step will be to integrate a GPS into it so that it changes time zones whenever I travel
Esperandi
I don't HAVE to have the far-out crazy stuff, but man I don't want to have to worry about my watch band breaking or anything like that...
Is the watch band non-removable, flush with the skin, and lasts for the rest of my life? i currently have a conventional watch and band and it gets caught on things, isn't that much of a conversation starter, and it tends to rot through after a couple of years...
Esperandi
Sweet, is is waterproof? I *NEVER* take my watch off ;)
;)
Esperandi
Wearing a crappy Timex right now, I love the Indiglo since I'm nocturnal, but this thing is like almost 10 years old now...
I've called for this before in many forums and with a loud voice, I'll repeat the call here since its relevant.
I am looking for any surgeon to implant a digital watch face into my left forearm. I will gladly be your guinea pig or keep your identity completely secret if you're afraid you'll do your license. Hell, I'll even provide my own anisthetic...
oh, and I wanna webcast the operation, but you can cover your face if you wish.
Please, there's got to be a black market surgeon around here someplace!
Esperandi
Would black market surgeons and mad scientists read Slashdot? I certainly think so.
Interested /.'s may want to check out Micro-Electroporation: Improving the efficiency and Understanding of Electrical Permeabilization of Cells, Which is the authors' actual paper as published in Biomedical Microdevices.
Now in the case of other knowledge, its entirely possible that one might d/l all of mathematics and not understand any of it. Your brain might simply not have the interconects that need to grow in order to think about a given subject. Similarly, one could d/l all of human history, be able to give names and dates and places of interest, but not be able to reason about those, thus missing the analysis that someone who understands history could make. I don't know how you could download understanding short of instructing the growth of interconects in the brain.
You're starting with the assumption that any information download to the brain must necessarily place the information into long-term semantic memory (the kind that lets you win Jeopardy), and then coming to the somewhat obvious conclusion that this would have rather limited applications. The real breakthrough would be the ability to store stuff in your procedural memory, so that in addition to knowing the definition of an integral, you know how to integrate, for example. After all, your understanding of mathematics is ultimately due to the arrangement of neurons in your brain, so there is no reason in principle why it couldn't be expanded by messing with your neurons. It would obviously be extremely difficult, but I think we all know that.
As for your point about adding interconnects, how else would we be downloading the information in the first place? I thought the whole point was that we'd be screwing with the gray matter. Granted, the original article doesn't have anything to do with adding interconnects, but it doesn't have anything to do directly with adding information to the brain either.
Brings new meaning to the term "painful upgrade" I just hope that the turnaround time on this hardware will be better than six months. "Hey its my birthday, guess I should upgrade my Brainium III"
There's no such place as the University of Ohio. Ohio State University & Ohio University yes.
Oliver's army is here to stay Oliver's army are on their way And I would rather be anywhere else But here today
1) Telepathy. Your brain links to an encrypted radio link, sort of like mental wireless Ethernet.
2) Direct computer-human interfaces. People could control their computers, fly airplanes, and perform other tasks merely by thinking of them. Obviously, this would still require training.
3) Mental HUD displays. A user could allocate a portion of his visual space to a visual computer display.
4) Probably the most interesting implications would involve improved learning abilities. It would be really interesting to have the capability to link a kind of mental hard drive into someone. This would be sort of like Neo in The Matrix when he plugs himself into a computer, and several seconds later wakes up saying, ``I know Kung-Fu!''
Obviously, any kind of interface like this would probably require a lot of training. If people are able to allocate part of their visual field to a display, they have to be able to turn it on and off, and that would require training if the interface is to be truely transparent.
I don't think we're anywhere near this point yet, though. Give science a few years and we might start seeing very interesting applications of hardware-wetware interfaces.
According to the article, it seems that this treatment would be affecting just one cell at a time: you'd need to wire each cell individually. In other words, I don't see it as a treatment any time soon, until they can wire thousands of cells at once. Of course, if they do manage to do mass-implants, an immediate first application of this technology would be in curing cancer: give each cancerous cell a poison, but not touch any of the non-cancerous cells.
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn. Or a juggernaut.