Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Asks Slashdot To Remove Readers' Posts
From: "J.K. Weston"
To: "'dns_admin@andover.net'"
"'dns_tech@andover.net'"
Subject: Notice of Copyright Infringement under the Digitial Millennium Copyright Act
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:08:49 -0700
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58)
Andover Advanced Technologies
Andover.Net
50 Nagog Park
Acton, MA 01720
Phone: (978) 635-5300
Fax: (978) 635-5326
Email: dns_admin@andover.net; dns_tech@andover.net
Dear Internet Service Provider:
We understand that your website, http://www.slashdot.org, is a popular site for developers to discuss topical issues of interest. In that vein, it has come to our attention that there have been numerous posts of concern related to Microsoft's copyrighted work entitled "Microsoft Authorization Data Specification v. 1.0 for Microsoft Windows 2000 Operating Systems" and we would appreciate your posting this email to the site to help relay our position to your users.
This notice is being sent under the provisions, and following the guidelines, of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 (DMCA).
Included on http://www.slashdot.org are comments that now appear in your Archives, which include unauthorized reproductions of Microsoft's copyrighted work entitled "Microsoft Authorization Data Specification v.1.0 for Microsoft Windows 2000 Operating Systems" (hereafter "Specification"). In addition, some comments include links to unauthorized reproductions of the Specification, and some comments contain instructions on how to circumvent the End User License Agreement that is presented as part of the download for accessing the Specification.
Although not intended to be an exhaustive representation, the specific comments below, categorized by corresponding activities, are examples of the misuse of Microsoft's proprietary information:
Comments Containing A Copy of the Specification:
"by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday, May 02, @03:37PM EST (#197)"
"by BlueUnderwear on Tuesday, May 02, @04:09PM EST (#239)"
"by BlueUnderwear on Tuesday, May 02, @04:15PM EST (#248)"
"by smartin on Tuesday, May 02, @02:20PM EST (#86)"
Comments Containing Links to Internet Sites with Unauthorized Copies of the
Specification:
"by ka9dgx on Tuesday May 02, @2:52PM EST (#133)"
Comments Containing Instructions on How to Bypass the End User License
Agreement and Extract the Specification:
"by myconid (my S conid@ P toge A the M r.net) on Tuesday May 02, @07:27PM
EST (#362)"
"by markb on Tuesday May 02, @05:47PM EST (#321)"
"by Sami (respect.my@authorita-dot-net) on Tuesday May 02, @01:47PM EST
(#19)"
"by iCEBalM (icebalm@[NOSPAM]bigfoot.com) on Tuesday May 02, @01:52PM EST
(#33)"
"by Jonny Royale (moc.mocten.xi@notners) on Tuesday, May 02, @01:59PM EST
(#51)"
"by rcw-work (rcw@d.e.b.i.a.n.org.without.dots) on Tuesday, May 02, @07:12PM
EST (#353)"
Under the provisions of the DMCA, we expect that having been duly notified
of this case of blatant copyright violation, Andover will remove the above
referenced comments from its servers and forward our complaint to the owner
of the referenced comments.
This email notification is a statement made under penalty of perjury that we
are the copyright owner of the referenced Specification, that we are acting
in good faith, and that the above-referenced comments, as part of
http://www.slashdot.org, is posting proprietary material without express
written permission.
We request immediate action to remove the cited violations from Andover's
servers, in accordance with the provisions of the Digital Millennium
Copyright Act of 1998.
This email is not intended to waive any of our other rights and remedies.
Please confirm your receipt of this request by responding to this email.
Also, confirm the status of this request either via email or via the
following contact mechanisms:
By mail:
J.K. Weston, Designated Agent
Microsoft Corporation
One Microsoft Way, 114/2314
Redmond, WA 98052
By phone:
(425) 703-5529
By email: jkweston@microsoft.com
---------------------------
To: J.K. Weston"
From: Robin Miller
Subject: Notice of Copyright Infringement under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
Dear J. K. Weston:
Per your request, we are posting your e-mail on this subject on Slashdot.org to help you relay your position to our users.
The balance of your e-mail's content is somewhat puzzling to us. I'm sure you agree that freedom of speech is at least as important a principle under American law as the freedom to innovate, so I'm sure that you personally, and Microsoft corporately, will understand our hesitation to engage in censorship.
Indeed, after reflecting on the nature of freedom for a little while, you may wish to withdraw your request that we remove readers' comments from Slashdot. Please realize that if we censor our readers's posts because they contain ideas Microsoft does not wish to have made public, we may set an unhealthy precedent for other online news outlets and online service providers, including those owned in whole or in part by Microsoft itself.
Meanwhile, in case Microsoft does not decide to have a happy change of heart and support a free and open Internet (which would certainly be in everyone's best interest), we have sought advice both from our attorneys and from our readers about what, if anything, we should do next.
Please expect a formal reply to your request that we censor our readers' comments, which we allow them to post on Slashdot as freely as Microsoft allows user-generated content to be sent through Hotmail and through chat facilities and discussion groups hosted on MSN.com servers, as soon as we receive wise counsel not only from our attorneys, but also from concerned members of the Slashdot community and other interested parties.
Sincerely,
- Robin "roblimo" Miller
Editor-in-Chief,
Andover.net
This is great. As a news site, publicity and name recognition are your life blood. They've really put you in a win win situation. If they decide to take you to court and you eventually lose the extra publicity will be worth far more than the fine. On the other hand, if you win then you get the "David slays Goliath" kudos.
The worst thing that can happen if you tell them to fuck off is better than than the best thing that can happen if you give in.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Who would have thought slashdot would be one of the first potential court cases to test the DMCA :-)
Someone should start a fund to help Slashdot in case Slashdot does get sued by Microsoft, even though it's very unlikely Slashdot will win.
Slashdot is not exactly a poor business that's barely trying to stand on two feet. I don't think they need a legal defense fund from the general public, besides which, although I read slashdot, I am completely unwilling to contribute money to the legal defense fund of a for-profit company. If they're making money off of their readership, (and rest assured that they are) they don't need to have us further help them financially by paying for their lawyers should they get sued.
I'm not anti-business, and I'm not anti-slashdot, but I would no more pay for slashdot's legal defense then I would for, say, Amoco or Bell Atlantic's legal defense.
The DMCA definately sucks, but in the end, companies will do what is best for their profitability. If they're publically owned, (like Andover is) then they pretty much have to. Your dollars in their defense fund won't change their strategy, and in the end, if the "stand up for the right thing" it will be because management has decided that that's the best thing to do in terms of long term profitability (for whatever reason) not out of some strong moral conviction.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
I agree it's out of line to remove the links. But if, under DMCA, links to illegally-copied material are ruled illegal, then are links to links to illegally-copied material illegal?
In other words, suppose someone places a copy on a server in Lilliput, out of the reach of DMCA (and perhaps a rogue nation that doesn't acknowledge intellectual property rights at all). In this hypothetical, a webpage in the US with a link to that copy in Lilliput would be illegal. But now suppose there's a webpage in Shangrila, also out of reach of DMCA, that has a link to the page in Lilliput. Would it be illegal for a webpage in the US to have a link to the page in Shangrila?
Does the "illegal link" propagate?
Christopher A. Bohn
cb
Oooh! What does this button do!?
This is the right place at the right time to start working to dismantle this dreadful law, passed nearly two years ago while much of cyberspace wasn't paying attention.
Some rock bands and music companies (for completely different reasons) are invoking this same law, as will any large corporation with lawyers that doesn't want to see something published. Under the worst provisions of the DMCA, you don't even have to prove copyright infringement, just allege it..and the ISP can only avoid liability by booting the offenders or deleting the allegedly offensive material. To restore access or content, you have to file an affidavit under the jurisdiction of the federal judge in your region.
This is one of the reasons it's outrageous for a corporation like Microsoft to use the DMCA to remove public comments. Almost nobody online was paying attention with the entertainment industry rushed to get this law passed, maybe because nobody imagined companies like Microsoft would jump in to use it to try and control what they call "proprietary" information, but which, in fact, will have the affect of censoring, chilling free speech. Slashdot is lucky, in this case, to be owned by a corporation..it has access to lawyers. To really grasp the horror here, imagine if you're a smaller website or weblog.Step one: The DMCA has to be repealed or re-written.It's much more offensive and damaging than the Communications Decency Act would have been, and much more enforceable.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
Granted I don't care too much most of the opinions of slashdot editors (or posters for that matter). But it is good to see than when something real and serious comes up the editors here at Slashdot can put down the bias and the "revelery" for a moment and do the right thing.
:)
F /...
Your response was brief, to the point, and most importantly not inflammatory. Microsoft is a corporation, so of course its going to act like one. This fact seems to get lost on many slashdot posters. The DMCA is something they fought for... and now something they are going to use to fight with. This is as it should be. Its the lay of the land now... the way it works. Currently.
Unfortunately for Microsoft (and any large coroporation) they move slow and reacte even more slowly. The power of the net comes from its ability to inform many people of all of the facts on any issue almost instantly. Long gone are the days when it took months or even years to start a proper counter-movement. Now it takes days... Microsoft has felt this before and they will feel it again. What was acceptable for big business in the 80s became less so in the 90s and now in the zeros those who can't change and adapt to a smart, all knowing consumer are doomed to failure at that consumer's hands. This is the "internet economy"... not some company with potential billion dollar profits 5 or 6 years after starting up, no its consumers finally having real choice and power.
It is about time
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
Microsoft didn't ask Slashdot to remove comments which were critical of the company. They asked Slashdot to remove articles which violated Microsoft's legitimate copyright.
Some of the comments which Microsoft wants /. to remove are not part of Microsoft's copyrighted material. They simply give advice on how one can circumvent an EULA.
Unfortunately, the DMCA makes the dissemination of such advice legal.
I'd like everyone reading this to stop for a few seconds and ponder this. If you write a howto which helps people obtain documentation you could be prosecuted under the DMCA.
A bit scary? I think so....
Why is it ok to break the DMCA but not okay for me to go break the GPL? Seems like a pretty huge double standard to me.
Reply:
Because the GPL represents Free Speech, DMCA represents Corporate Censorship. big difference.
Oh, so if I was some big company, and you were some developer of GPLd software, then I would be expected to respect your rights, while you should be allowed to tramp all over mine? That hardly seems fair. We can not claim protection from the law if we don't respect the law ourselves.
On the other hand, if, as some people claim, the DMCA does in fact contradict the First Amendment, that would be a good reason to throw out the DMCA. Once that happens, obviously, we would no longer have to respect it.
The time has come for Andover to secede from the United States. This will allow a huge expansion in business operations.
Suppressed organizations like Napster will be welcomed with opened arms. "IP Address of Convenience" registry will be available to other companies who feel the weight of the DMCA pressing down upon them.
Absolutely nothing a Scientologist or Microsoft or Metallica lawyer can do will matter in the slightest. It will be sort of like Canada, but not lame.
JonKatz will of course be named minister of propaganda and warm fuzzy feelings. CowboyNeal gets the ministry of statistics. Of course no form of expression will be censored, but people wanting to plaster dotcom advertisements over everything will be politely asked not to.
Good Things like microbrew, quality pizza, convertibles, game developers, mechanical wristwatches, fine clothes, USB, penguins, snowboarding and DVD will be encouraged, and perhaps even subsidised.
If you forget to dial the '1' before a phone number, there will be no annoying voice reminding you - instead the phone system will just know you meant to do that, and connect you anyway.
After the Andover goes the way of most non-US$ currencies, your old savings will be worth so much that there will be no need for a real job, nothing but open source hacking on state-supplied Athlons, punctuated by nerf gun wars and visits to the "mainland" for baseball games. Hooray!
> The DMCA needs to be stopped before it stunts technology permanantly.
More correctly, it will stunt _American_ technology permanently. If this trend is allowed to continue and the US falls farther and farther into restrictive legislation, it won't be long before other countries with less restrictive laws will pass you by. Show the lawmakers in the US how this will affect company's ability to compete on the world stage, and perhaps they will think twice about its usefulness.
For example, recently the US eased restrictions on exporting of encryption. Why? Because US companies were concerned about other counties coming out with equivalent or better products which they then shipped to the world, while the US companies could not.
http://bike.stu.ph/rides - free GPS routes available for Garmin, Magellan, GPX and Google Earth
I've been waiting for this to happen for a LONG time. I vote for a refusal to edit the posts or remove. And furthermore I vote that all of us users start appending those posts to our new posts like this:
... (Score:1)
May I claim John Doe #1
by BlueUnderwear on 05:17 PM May 2nd, 2000 EST (#253)
(User Info)
... for This puppy. It's the kerbspec file unzipped and without the legal boilerplate.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
I don't think it's a double-standard at all. GPL'd code allows you to view the source code, and reverse engineer a protocol or standard, if you so desire. If you wish to expound further on the code, you must either make your changes public, or not use any of the GPL'd code at all. But you are always free to view it. IANAL, but I think you'd also be free to try to reverse engineer a compiled GPL binary, if you really wanted to do that, instead of look at the source.
DCMA, however, prevents one from trying to find out what is going on behind the user interface. If you attempt to figure out what's occurring, you're in violation. The DCMA seems to provide some sort of blanket behind which software houses can keep their standards secret. If the standard is ever figured out or made public, they cry "DCMA Violation", thus preventing (or slowing down) competing interoperability with said standard.
make world, not war
The notion that Microsoft should be allowed to censor /. or any other medium is repugnant, and were this solely about this then I'd be throwing my hat in with everyone else who has knee-jerked and screamed "WE HATE BILL" with all their might.
If only they'd bothered to look at the issue here...
Microsoft say that certain posts infringed their copyright, and, if we're honest, they did. People blatently posted material copyrighted to M$. Such posts should never have been allowed to remain on the server, but they did.
Please don't do anything daft and turn this into a legal case that slashdot/Andover can't afford. I fear you would lose, and it wouldn't even be a blaze of glory you'd go out in.
--
Listening for the sound of the coming rain...
See, for example, LA Times v. Free Republic
Dear Microsoft -
Its nice to see that you are continuing to live up to your reputation of attempting to squash any open discussions of your business practices.
Instead of pulling out the DMCA and trying to use it to control, take a look at some of the comments that were made. At the *very* good points that developers and other IT people made about your release. And consider them an independent discussion of your business. The people who were discussing you are in a large part the people who are also your customers, your developers, and the very community with which you want to be having open discussions.
The best thing you could do at this point is to retract your letter, *apologize* and perhaps contact the Slashdot crew about an 'Ask Microsoft' regular feature. You might be surprised at some of our questions -- and who knows, you may surprise us in a *good* way with some of your answers.
Check out Magic Firesheep!
Circumventing the EULA is not illegal. It has no copy protection, it is a simple archive and can be opened in almost any program that handles that sort of file(iw winzip). Just because doing so is against what the EULA says, you must remember that the EULA was never agreed to when somebody decides to simply open it in winzip.
Also, simply linking to sites that contain unpacked versions that don't have the EULA on it is not illegal, or at least isn't yet(and hopefully never will be). The MPAA tried to get the courts to block 2600 from linking to DeCSS sites(and DeCSS has already been deemed illegal to have in your possesion). Why should slashdot stop linking to sites that contain microsofts implementation of the kerberos protocol when its not even illegal to have to begin with. There is no law saying a EULA must be present when you look at something from a company, even if a company wants it to be that way. I say it's time for Microsoft to realize that their days of blind bullying are over. Don't take down any posts concerning that story.
Not to mention the fact that "posts are the property of the person who posted them" to begin with. Stupid lawyers
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
Hey, at least they're visiting the site.:) I wonder if the M$ guys have accounts?
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
"At the root of the issue is whether Microsoft legally has the right to keep its Kerberos extensions under copyright. As far as I recall, Kerberos extensions could only be kept private for in-house development. Obviously, Microsoft's Windows 2000 goes a bit beyond that."
And
"Remember as well that Microsoft has made the spec publicly available as long as you agree to certain terms--including that you don't tell anyone else the spec. Clearly, that's a ridiculous premise."
Even while it is on trial for abuse of its monopoly position, Microsoft is using the usual tactics (absorb, subvert, suppress) to abuse and strengthen its monopoly position.
The only way this will ever be stopped is to break up Microsoft. Well, short of nationalization, and summary execution of all key officers. Personally, I favor a breakup and summary executions, but I'm a moderate.
Is this a violation of DCMA? The reverse-engineering action occurred outside of DCMA's jurisdiction. MSFT's problem, as per their lawyer's letter, seems to be with the DCMA violation itself. Yet they are also complaining about proposals to bybass the EULA to view the document.
Which of the four stages are we at now? Then they fight you... Guess what stage is next???
Posting anonymously because their lawyers are probably scanning every post on this thread (scary).
I'm very confused, where in my post did i include any part of M$'s information? I've never even downloaded or read it in whole or in part. I can't understand why you or the evil empire thinks that i did? Here is what I said in it's entirety:
What happens to the people that implement it (ie. the Samba guys) even if they obtain the information without intentionally breaking the license. Are they exposing themselves to expensive litigation? Are they endangering the project?
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Can any lawyer here confirm or deny this?
Did the email have an attachment with a .vbs extension by any chance?
Using HTML in email is like putting sound effects on your phone calls. Just say <strong>no</strong>.
Just a note (because IANAL almost goes without saying anymore):
How about it be assumed that whoever posts is not a lawyer, thus eliminating the "IANAL" acronyms and instead, but "IAAL" for "I am a lawyer" for the rare person who has the credentials.
Of course, there are some issues with this, but really, if you're taking serious legal advice off a public forum, you need more than just legal help.
Woz
These should be added to the list with insightful, etc.
+1 Trade Secret
+1 Copyright Violation
+1 National Secret
Surfing the net and other cliches...
Surfing the net and other cliches...
(Who Meta-Meta-Moderates the Meta-Moderators?)
I believe it is out of line to remove links to Microsoft's documents, but the comments actually containing the document are probably a legitimate target for removal.
Microsoft is playing very dirty pool with this "specification."
... congratulations. You are now legally ineligable to work on them because you have been "contaminated" by exposure to Microsoft's trade secrets.
... an API that is published, yet illegal to use. If they are successful with this, expect to see future APIs released in this fashion. At least when Microsoft kept their secret APIs secret, people could reverse engineer them, safe in the knowledge that they could not be sued by Microsoft. Anyone who utilizes an API that has been published under these conditions is in danger of having to defend themselves against an accusation of breach of contract, and having to prove that they did not see the poisoned API document.
The purpose of releasing the specification under this sort of "license" is NOT for the benefit of the user or programming community. This license is specifically crafted to provide a weapon that Microsoft can use against people trying to write programs that are compatable with Microsoft's interfaces.
The license only authorizes the use of the interface specification "for the sole purpose of allowing review of the Specification for security analysis." The license does not authorize the use of the interface specification for the purpose of utilizing the interface by third-party programs.
If you were planning to work on a program to interface to Microsoft's Kerberos, and you have seen these documents
Microsoft is attempting to create a new legal classification
Microsoft is playing a fast, loose game with the concept of a "trade secret" in a way that completely violates the spirit of the law.
As for the question of whether to remove the posts, I would argue that the posts that contained complete, verbatim copies of the program files should be removed, but the rest of the posts, especially the posts that describe how to open the files without agreeing to the EULA, should be left intact. Microsoft did not ensure that persons receiving the API specification could not access the specification without agreeing to the licensing terms, their trade secret has been revealed, and is no longer a trade secret. This is what Microsoft is trying to whitewash in asking that these posts be removed. They are attempting to establish that they can publicly publish an API, yet identify it as a "trade secret", then use it as a weapon against competitors.
Make no mistake, this new tactic is a direct attack on open source projects that compete with Microsoft's products, and we as of yet have no effective defense because we have been taken by surprise.
I hope that the outcome of this is that a court eventually finds that Microsoft lost trade secret status when it publicly published the specification, and I hope that whatever Andover decides to do in this case advances this goal.
Only the loss of trade secret status will stop Microsoft from pulling this dirty trick in the future. If they win this, expect all future Microsoft APIs to be similarly poisoned.
Let us not forget that the DMCA has a reverse engineering provision. It is lawful to reverse engineer software for certain specific purposes. One of those purposes is interoperability. Since Microsoft's whole point in protecting it is to prevent interoperability, isn't it legal to circumvent protections for that purpose?
Comments Containing A Copy of the Specification:
.
.
"by smartin on Tuesday, May 02, @02:20PM EST (#86)"
Now, I went and looked at this comment. Wanna know the big secret? Here goes:
Posting the data is all well and good, but.... (Score:2)
by smartin on 03:20 PM May 2nd, 2000 EST (#86)
What happens to the people that implement it (ie. the Samba guys) even if they obtain the information without intentionally breaking the license. Are they exposing themselves to expensive litigation? Are they endangering the project?
Ummm... exactly where is there a trade secret in this post? I'm waiting...
Eric
Actually this would be the perfect test of the DMCA. The posting of the actual document is obviously in violation of Microsoft's copyright, however the links to it and the instructions for bypassing the EULA would certainly provide a good legal test of the DMCA. Rob, take down the actual document where it is posted on Slashdot, but leave the other posts. We need to choose our battles, DMCA is one I think we can win. Posting copyrighted material (like the specification) is not.
Someone should start a fund to help Slashdot in case Slashdot does get sued by Microsoft, even though it's very unlikely Slashdot will win. Maybe hire Johnny Cocran to take the case as well as Andover's lawyers. He's had great experience when it came to the O.J Simpson trial ;)
Anyways, everyone needs to write their representative now! This link will allow you to do so with ease. The DMCA needs to be stopped before it stunts technology permanantly.
US businesses that currently accept chip and PIN/signature
Okay, I propose a test. Let's post these Microsoft copywrited materials to some discussion group on MSN. If it's gone within a certain amount of time, then Slashdot should remove their copy. Else, Microsoft is being horribly hypocritical, and I'm sure that can't look good in court. But then again, I don't think there's a provision in the DMCA for hypocracy.
Being one of the named (hey you bright microsoft lusers, you forgot to capitalized my L!) I certainly don't want my post yanked, I did nothing which violated any law.
I simply stated that to get past the End User License Agreement for the Microsoft "embrace and extend" kerberos spec file located h ere is to just open it in winzip and extract it.
I mean, what possible law could I have violated, being a Canadian citizen and all? These comments belong to me, not Slashdot, if MS has a problem with them, then you talk to me.
The file is freely downloadable by anyone, in an easy to extract and read format, I thought this is what MS wanted? If not they would never have done it.
Now as for people posting the text to the file in whole, well, that's a copyright violation, and MS needs to go ahead and sue those people (comments belong to the poster), but as an unmoderated forum, slashdot is no party to it.
What if the same thing happened on an unmoderated group on usenet? How are you going to yank it after it's out there? You going to sue the news servers? No, you sue the person who did it.
MS is just making this worse for themselves, the whole kerberos thing would probably have just dissapeared and would have been forgotten by the majority, but now by doing this, they rehash it and just make it worse for themselves, next thing you know there will be mirrors upon mirrors of the pdf file everywhere. I personally am thinking of rewriting the document in my own words to hand off to the kerberos guys now, which I didn't even think about before.
Microsoft, you really know how to shoot yourself in the foot. Kudos.
-- iCEBaLM
We got a microsoft suit to send slashdot an email with the word "blueunderwear" in it twice. Thanks to blueunderwear for tick them off.
Reading this comment, something occured to me.
:-), I think it's reasonable for the lawyers to investigate the posters a bit before responding to MS's demand. I think we can all agree that the response will need to be *very* different if Slashdot/Andover/VALinux can show that the offending posters work for Microsoft!
Is it possible that the comments which many of us feel might have crossed the line (e.g., posting actual content instead of just links) were planted by Microsoft employees specifically so Microsoft could make a fuss about the "clear violation of law" and (hopefully) eliminate additional posts which would have otherwise been left alone?
I have absolutely no evidence that MS did this, or that it even contemplated it, but the problem with playing dirty is that reasonable people have to assume the worst from you. Because of MS's history (written entirely by Mac sorehead losers, no doubt
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
It might be even more fun to do this to M$, if they (an individual company) keeps fighting things in court, maybe they'll bankrupt... unlike the Entertainment Trust which still owns a lot of people's hearts and minds.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
First, I agree that you don't speak for 100% of Slashdot's readers. It's been common knowledge for quite some time that gates has commanded his minions to infiltrate, monitor, and astroturf Slashdot. You can see some of them in this very thread that you started, and quite a few more in the other threads on this topic.
Speaking for myself, however, I agree 100%.
Look. We all knew this was comeing. It was only a matter of time before gates moved to silence his critics. It is an inevitable part of any tyrant's rise... seize control of the critical press. Make sure ONLY your viewpoint is heard by the masses. Stalin did it. Mao did it. Castro did it. Hussain did it.
And let's face it. Outside of gates' own astroturfing schills, most of the Slashdot community IS critical of microsoft. Now Gates has begun his own campaign to silence his critics.
I say FIGHT! Do NOT submit without making gates pay dearly for his every inch. The old cliche applies. If you give an inch, he will take a mile. But if you stand your ground, this MAY be the turning point in the struggle for freedom. Who knows? Mabye resistance REALLY is not futile.
And don't keep the fight in the courtroom only. Take it to the public. Let the media know that gates is attempting to do away with the first amendment. And I don't mean just the tech press like ZDnet and Cnet. Take it to the mass media! CNN, AP, the New York Times, even sensationalist press like Fox. Let the WHOLE WORLD know what gates is trying! Put that Andover IPO money to good use; take out a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal.
But above all, NEVER GIVE IN! If microsoft suceeds, if gates takes away our right to freely speak and write, critically or no, who knows what right is next on his list during his ascension? Keep and bear arms would be the next logical chioce, but free assembly, trial by jury, and redress of grievances would also be high on his list.
Slashdot should learn from others who fought such battles against tyrants. The forces of good invariably have triumphed in the past, and I hope that we triumph in the future. Adopt the philosophy of other great fighters. I am reminded of one quote in particular. Some of you might recognise it:
"We shall have no truce or parley with you,
or the grizley gang who work your wicked will.
You do your worst.
And we shall do our best."
-- Sir Winston Spencer Churchill
john
Imagine all the people...
I think the problem is quite different from actually providing that information in this instance.
If we just moved the contents of those comments somewhere else, sure we'd put slashdot off the hook, but it would escape this important opportunity to oppose the dmca.
If slashdot removes those comments, the DMCA has a precedent, and this site will be the place that set that precedent. I think it is of utmost importance not to do that.
You can take all the controversial stuff you want, and hide it in another country, but if you keep running and hiding, soon there will be no country free enough to hide that information in. Someone needs to turn around and oppose the DMCA head on. That's what will stop it.
Ale
Here it is guys. Here's the chance you've been waiting for.
;-)
I've seen tons of posts saying basically "I'll fight them if they come to my door/portal/site!" Now you have the chance.
You knew this was coming. You knew it would happen eventually. Now stand up and do what needs to be done.
1) Slashdot should not have to remove "any" comments any more than an existing paper magazine should. (Some magazines occasionally have crossed the line - but if they can print a retraction in tiny letters on some back page so can Slashdot.
2) Microsoft should be made somehow (I don't know how - any ideas?) to pay for trying - IN THE MIDST OF THEIR ANTI-COMPETITION BATTLE - to silence information about something they're working on. To this end I suggest sending letters and e-mail to the Justice Department regarding this recent behavior.
In the interest of standing up for what's right I give Slashdot permission to contact me as needed regarding anything that I may have seen or heard on Slashdot. I give no such permission to Microsoft under any circumstances.
The Tick - "Spoon!"
"Bah!" - Dogbert
Here's my input:
Yank the posts that copied the original Microsoft documents. They clearly own the copyrights, and that is a reasonable request.
As for the links and the comments about the EULA, tough nouggies, theose are protected free speech, copyright the original posters.
-Jeff
I have not read the comments so I am not certain this pertains. The law explicitly says that it is legal to uses copyrighted material if it is for editorial purposes. Considering that Slashdot is clearly an environment for discussion and debate the posting of Copyrighted material should be legal as long as it pertains to the topic being discussed.
LOL! I love their address:
Microsoft Corporation
One Microsoft Way, 114/2314
Redmond, WA 98052
Says it all really :)
I suppose that this had to happen sooner or later given some of the things that get posted to /. every time a "trade secret" story comes up here. It's ironic really that it's everybody's favourite company, Microsoft, that's the one to finally do it though :)
Anyway, given that this is exactly the sort of thing the DMCA was created for I very much doubt that Slashdot would win if it ever goes to a court of law. /. did have posts which contained copies of the information which were forbidden under the MS Kerberos EULA, and the recent court case victory for shrinkwrap licenses doesn't put /. in a good position.
The one way I can see to fight this is through publicity and public opinion. Microsoft aren't liked, and if enough of a stink is raised they may back down. And /. is great for raising a stink, especially when it comes to Microsoft :) So everyone should be working to publisize this as a violation of free speech and general interference by a corporation intent on making money at the expense of other's work.
And I fully expect that the relevent posts will already be mirrored in a hundred places across the net by the time this gets posted anyway, so, like with DeCSS, it's a battle that's lost in practice but being fought for control :)
As soon as you start controlling what people post, you will become liable for everything posted!
I'm 100% certain that when i say this, i am saying it for all of Slashdot's readers:-
No matter what Microsoft threatens, no matter what they say, do not give into them. This is not because it is Microsoft, but because Free Speech is far too important, especially on a forum such as Slashdot. Give them hell.
As a side issue, i have a feeling this could turn into a very intersting thread. It covers all the things Slashdoters love to hate: Microsft, the DMCA and Censorship.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
If I'm not mistaken (IANAL, naturally), actually hosting the material is illegal. BUT, linking to it is perfectly fine. So, someone make copies of all the comments... stick them on a server off in some country where they can't be touched, and post a link moderated to +5 on the story in question linking to that page.
/. off the hook, and the comments would still be there and totally visible.
I think that would get
-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.
Personally, I would not cooperate with such a request without a signed opinion letter from counsel stating that (1) there is no fair use involved; and (2) there is no improper motive in the request. If it turns out they've overreached, you can pursue disciplinary action against the attorney who signed it. Most lawyers will be very reluctant to sign such an opinion letter because of the legal risk it creates for them. And if the requestor won't provide such a letter, it makes subsequent legal action on their part much more problematic. Plus, such a demand on your part is obviously reasonable. Note that the letter must not simply be a demand, but must state that it is an opinion of counsel.
InstaPundit! Ahead of the Curve Since 30 Minutes Ago
Comments Containing A Copy of the Specification:
"by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday, May 02, @03:37PM EST (#197)"
"by BlueUnderwear on Tuesday, May 02, @04:09PM EST (#239)"
"by BlueUnderwear on Tuesday, May 02, @04:15PM EST (#248)"
"by smartin on Tuesday, May 02, @02:20PM EST (#86)"
Comments Containing Links to Internet Sites with Unauthorized Copies of the Specification:
"by ka9dgx on Tuesday May 02, @2:52PM EST (#133)"
Comments Containing Instructions on How to Bypass the End User License Agreement and Extract the Specification:
"by myconid (my S conid@ P toge A the M r.net) on Tuesday May 02, @07:27PM EST (#362)"
"by markb on Tuesday May 02, @05:47PM EST (#321)"
"by Sami (respect.my@authorita-dot-net) on Tuesday May 02, @01:47PM EST (#19)"
"by iCEBalM (icebalm@[NOSPAM]bigfoot.com) on Tuesday May 02, @01:52PM EST (#33)"
"by Jonny Royale (moc.mocten.xi@notners) on Tuesday, May 02, @01:59PM EST (#51)"
"by rcw-work (rcw@d.e.b.i.a.n.org.without.dots) on Tuesday, May 02, @07:12PM EST (#353)"
"They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here!" -Jean-Luc Picard
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but we were discussing Micros~1's deviation from the kerberos protocol. Most of us did not agree that Micros~1's implementation of kerberos did not fit the standard. Therefore in the context of our discussion, it was legal under fair use principles that we analyse the code.
Not only that, but according to MIT, kerberos is released under a bsd-style licence. Well, this is what a bsd-style licence looks like. Micros~1 totally abused this licence, and MIT should take away their privilege of calling the software kerberos. Kerberos is a MIT copyright, not a Micros~1 copyright. Micros~1 does not have the right to pursue this.
I usually play devils advocate when someone spews misinformation about Micros~1. This time, it is totally obvious that they have left the realm of the clued.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I'm so frustrated, MS might as well have written the law -- it's damn near airtight (even though its application here has to be unconstitutional). Stanford Law's archives were somewhat reassuring in this "fair use" of copyrighted materials quote.
"The framers of the constitution maintained that a free exchange of knowledge is essential for the good of society, and it is from this assertion that both copyright law and the fair use doctrine find their roots." *
Now here is the relevant excerpt MS can bury Andover with (notice, I said Andover):
Does anybody see anything that would help here? Just making information to circumvent the liscence makes Andover guilty as hell of making information available to more-easily cirumvent the software liscence. A serious crime. .pdf? I open all my .exe files with Winzip -- Don't you!?!?"
* http://fairuse.stanford.edu/articles/
If anybody asks me, I'll say: "you mean there is a liscence on that
There are 3 points to this "request":
1 - Removal of copyrighted material
Posting of copyrighted material is wrong. There is no reading of
the copyright laws of the USA that allows for the verbatum copying of
copyrighted material whether it be with a printing press, photo copier
or email. There is very little justification to the notion that
an editorial requires the entire contents of the document. So, the
initial posting was wrong and illegal and the poster may be liable for
damages.
The question still remains: shall slashdot remove the copyrighted
work? It is not a question of free-speech. Even the Evil Empire is
not "requesting" the removal of the comments, only the copyrighted
material. This is within the rights of the copyright holder.
Posting the material was both wrong and illegal (even if its
Micr$soft'$). Knowingly keeping the posting is still wrong, even if
the legality is in question. It seems to me that the slash dot people
are interested in doing what's right.
2 - Removal of links
A while back SlashDot posted an article on a similar subject. The
Mormon church sued to have links to copyrighted material removed from
a web site. The judge found in favor of the Church. From an article
in the New York times: ( search for "mormon" on SlashDot for a link to it)
Claiming that the Tanners were improperly pointing viewers to
sites that contained illegal copies of the handbook, lawyers
for the Mormon Church succeeded in getting Judge Campbell to
issue an expanded restraining order. This week, she also
issued a formal preliminary injunction, which prohibits the
Tanners from directly posting the contents of the handbook or
posting on their site "addresses to Web sites that defendants
know, or have reason to know, contain the material alleged to
infringe plaintiff's copyright."
This would seem to be along the same vein as the "request" made by His
Royal Gatesness. Having had it brought to SlashDot's attention, they
now "have reason to know".
In reaching her decision, Judge Campbell made two key
conclusions. First, she reasoned that anyone who went to a Web
site and viewed a pirated copy of the handbook was probably
engaging in direct copyright infringement, because that viewer's
browser automatically makes a local copy of the text.
This is an interesting definition of a "copy", yet it sets a legal
precedent that might effect SlashDot's case.
In addition, Judge Campbell reckoned that by posting the addresses
to the pirate sites after they were ordered to take down the handbook,
and by otherwise assisting people who wished to locate the pirate
sites, the Tanners were liable under a theory of contributory
copyright infringement. By their actions, the Tanners "actively
encouraged" browsers to directly infringe the church's copyright,
Judge Campbell wrote.
This argument could easily apply to SlashDot as well.
What makes Judge Campbell's 10-page opinion significant,
lawyers said, is that there are few other instances where a
court has ruled on the practice of knowingly linking to or
posting addresses for sites with infringing material.
Which should give me cause to reflect as the precedent this might set.
So, while I disagree with this judgement, it is also very applicable
(at least on the surface) to any case that SlashDot might be involved
in with respect to links to copyrighted material.
So should the links be removed? What would SlashDot gain by leaving
them up. They would get sued (probably) and then the court would
decide. Should the court decide against SlashDot, that would be a
victory for the Redmond Monopoly and a strengthening of the above
legal precedent. Should SlashDot prevail, it would bring the above
decision into question, which would be a good thing.
My suggestion: talk to a good lawyer and see what your chances are
(assuming you have the money for the legal battle).
3 - Links to instructions on How to Bypass the End User License
Agreement
This seems the flimsiest "request" by the World's Richest Nerd.
Micro$oft does not own the copyright on these articles. I have not
read the DMCA but this sort of thing falls outside copyright and
should therefore be allow. Also, EULA are questionable. I do not
know if they have been challenged but they seem to go to far into
keeping people from "fair use" of the copyrighted work.
Again, consult your lawyer, but leave these up.