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Linuxcare Responds To Tim O'Reilly's Article
Dave Sifry writes: "I wanted to let you guys know that my response to Tim O'Reilly's recent column about Linuxcare. Things really aren't as bad as some in the press have made it appear. I feel it is important to get a dose of facts into the conversation -- now that we're out of our quiet period and we can talk about what's going on, and all of the neat stuff we've been working on." After all that's been said about LinuxCare, it's good to hear info straight from the top, and that Tim O'Reilly is an active listener. Just remember who's speaking.
Does anyone remember when we all started using linux cause it was cool??
.com e-business (bleck.. remember when the web was about resource sharing and transmitting information? Back in the post-ARPAnet but pre-SuperInformationCyberHighway days?), so the latest fad is running a Linux server. Not Linux because it's more stable and reliable than Windoze (although that began the fad), not Linux because it's secure and has strong multiuser support and uptime, not even Linux because it's a 1337 operating system, but Linux because it's the latest thing. These fads tend to rip through a new technology, spread crappy implementations of it everywhere, and then leave it rotting, the old userbase disgusted and the new users left in the dust with a horrid half-implemented Linux system that fails half the time and doesn't even boot the other half. (Linux, in some respects, is better than that, but this new system they have isn't the same kind of quality as there was before the fad.)
I switched because it was open and (relatively, at that time) stable, but yeah.
Now linux is getting into a framework where everyone talks about the "business model" and the "value added" components, and the blah and the blah and the blah.
Linux is becoming corporatized. It's now the 'next new fad' of the computer industry. Now that everybody has a webpage, and everybody has a
I'm fucking switching to BSD
The one great thing is that once the fad sweeps through Open Source, it won't come back for a while. BSD will remain unharmed, while at the same time getting the B1 security certification that its been working on all the while. If this fad rips Linux apart and truely mutilates it, we can expect that the older Open Source advocates will switch to BSD. It's not that terribly different from Linux.
going to happen sooner than we think.
Self-Actualizing Prophecy alert! If the strong Linux userbase leaves because Linux is becoming corporatized, then even more of Linux will become corporatized. If the strong userbase remains, and they hand out copies of the GPL to the new sysadmins, and Slashdot remains an open forum for talk about things like this, then Linux will never truely become completely corporatized. Sure, businesses will make closed-source apps. But, if the strong userbase remains, we can make open-source ones to compete with the closed-source ones, just like Linux competes with Microsoft. The incredible Linux userbase, in my opinion, is capable of doing everything that the closed-source companies can do, and more.
which have a frighteningly strong chance of holding up against at relatively weak GPL
That is the one weakness of the entire Open Source movement. If, say, Microsoft found a loophole in the GPL, we're all dead. But hopefully that won't happen. I believe that, with the governments pro-competition idiology that the GPL will hold up in court, being the incredible volume of software that would be vulnerable if it was thrown out.
switch to the next "linux"
In my opinion, if Linux were ever to die (I hope not), then BSD would be the next 'Linux'. It's open source, without being part of the Open Source 'fad'. It has a higher security certification than Linux (Last time I checked), and is certainly a viable alternative. But I hope that Linux doesn't die.
(hint, it's founder's name starts with B, and ends in "ill Gates")
Bill Gates made an operating system? MS-DOS was bought by Microsoft (originally QDOS, Quick and Dirty Operating System, now Microsoft's Dirty Operating System), Windows was blatently ripped off of Xerox, with bits of the MacOS, NT was from VMS and Windows, and Win2k was from NT and 98 (which is actually 95 + Active Desktop and bug fixes, and 95 is actually a graphical shell for 3.11 with some 32-bit support). Microsoft never 'founded' an operating system. Although Bill did write one of the early BASICs. Blame him for that.
I'm not saying that I'm abandoning linux.
Good.
absolute freedom of linux.
Well, I switched because it was reliable and open, but free (beer) doesn't make it any worse. Although I think that Linux will still be around, although its userbase might not be as elite, and might use propriety software, there will always be those of us who use only open source code. Long Live Linux.
It's really perverted. But Word 97 did it as well. Just open an .rtf, and then save it - without making any changes. Poof! It is now 5 times bigger, and can't be read by WordPad.
Here's an example: test.rtf - "Hello, World!" in 10-point Arial font.
- Before: 133 bytes.
- After: 2,699 bytes.
Same story: test.html - "Hello, World!", no font specified.--
*Sigh* I never said that Linux was created before the GNU project. I just said that the GNU software was added to Linux later, which is true. Additionally, just because Linus used standards, that doesn't mean he didn't write the implementation himself, and then continued with the help of others. Torvalds isn't a god, but he didn't just find Linux in a cereal box either.
STALLMAN is who you should worship. He has laser-vision and fire-breath and magic powers. Don't fuck with him!
This, however, is true :)
j/k
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Thus, getting the level of sales to increase by $100M/year requires convincing a goodly number of people that a working relationship is worth more than $100M/year.
The problem is that it's difficult to so quickly establish relationships of trust.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Bill Gates made an operating system? MS-DOS was bought by Microsoft
lol - had i bet $200 that i'd get called on the Bill statement. I'd have $400 in my pocket right now. I'm WELL aware that Gates didn't write DOS. But he's responsible for where M$ is today. Without Gates, there is no windows...that was more of the point i was elucidating to. Especially since i can't remember the name of the guy that coded DOS.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
You can go to any support company you want and have them do the work you need. You needn't be stuck paying outrageous support fees if there are multiple vendors with equal access to the OS. They will have to compete for your business. Beats the hell out of having to pay $150 for a 10 minute call (after they've had you on hold for half an hour) only to be told that the problem you're having is still an "outstanding issue."
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Bill shared his ideas with Time magazine. Doubt that many knowledgeable people were able to read through those without either falling out of their chair laughing, or nodding off several times.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
We now have managers buying laptops for the express purpose of using Linux to take ported Unix tools on the proverbial road. They haven't a clue as to how to do it, and our user services won't even touch it. Geez, as an example they support Netscape for Windoze and Macintosh only; Netscape for Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, Irix, and especially Linux) is unsupported.
So, who supports these managers with the dual boot laptops?
The geeks do that. Yet, that doesn't work very well when the managers won't give us the tools or the time we need.
I recently made two new laptops dual boot. One of them returned to its former single boot state because I didn't have the time or the resouces to make the thing work reliably. I had other work to do. C'est la vie.
To anyone interested, consider this an opportunity for business development and growth.
Graham
Graham
Linux - Fast Pane Relief
> Linux is becoming corporatized. It's now the 'next new fad' of the computer industry. ... Not Linux because it's more stable and reliable than Windoze (although that began the fad), not Linux because it's secure and has strong multiuser support and uptime, not even Linux because it's a 1337 operating system, but Linux because it's the latest thing.
Possibly your analysis as "fad" is correct, but you do not cite any evidence so support the claim.
Is it not equally likely that IT needs are skyrocketing - as they always have - and that companies are installing Linux because it gives exceptional power at an exceptional price?
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
VMWare would be a consideration, but these people do not want an interruption to their current customized Windoze configurations. I couldn't get them to get Partition Magic - and I wasn't going to violate Power Quest's license for the benefit of my employer. I used fips instead for partitioning. While I'd never used fips before, it *is* a very nice tool!
Point is, if my employer wouldn't spring for a copy of Linux CDs or Partition Magic, there's no way they would cough up the bigger bucks for VMWare.
Graham
Graham
Linux - Fast Pane Relief
It's a Coke® and Pepsi® issue. Some fellas like Mathematica; others (myself included) like Waterloo Maple. It depends on what your school pushes.
Will I retire or break 10K?
The real world uses Windows 95 or 98, and Microsoft Office.
AbiWord is enough of a Word clone, and Gnumeric is enough of an Excel clone, that it almost doesn't matter.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Linux is not a known word at my school. I think one of the big reasons is, it's free. Usually, free things suck. The free gifts you get for calling those 800 #'s, ya know ... those shitty ones. They don't understand that in this case, free IS better, free IS free, free in this case == stability, something we don't have now. Currently for the whole district, we pay about $90 for each copy of Windows, which totals to over $50,000 for the whole district. We have a site license for a security program, Fortress which is about $10 a copy, Norton Antivirus, $15 a copy, MS Works and MS Office, MS Office is $50 for each machine. When you total that up (which isn't all of it either..) you easily get probably $500,000+ in SOFTWARE ALONE. The machines are pos E-Machines, at $600 a peice. Times that by a whole school district, we won't go there. So why don't they do Linux when it's free? Star Office, when it's free? Security wise, you don't need outside programs...
It's all because of support. There is no support, according to my school. They want to be able to phone someone up, unless they BUY RH or some varient, they don't get that. It's all really just a support issue.
High profile sites like Linuxcare are important for those of us pushing to get linux into our companies. Suits don't care a small pile of fetid dingo kidneys about how technically capable an OS is.
What they want to know is "will my email go through?" Cost isn't the issue. But support is. Having high profile support organisations you can point the bean counters at is very important.
Alas gallinaceas de urbe bovis volo
It's obvious that Tim O'Reilley needs to be simplified to TOR. We talk about him too much on this site for everyone to spell that last name, and everyone loves TLA's, right?
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
sign a support contract with someone like UNISYS, Compaq (ex DEC)
Buy support contracts from Compaq. Boycott Unisys for reasons discussed here.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Well, that's kind of reassuring that O'Reilly appears to be taking some personal accountability for this. Marks him up in my book as having the integrity munch a little crow in public.
OK, I tend to agree with you on most of those points, however I want to play devils advocate here. (and not for free bsd either)....When you are talking about public schools you have several other issues at hand as well. One of the first things you would need to keep in mind ESPECIALLY for public schools, is the KISS concept. Many teachers as it is are extremely skittish about using computers as it is, and if you make it any harder than necessary to use a computer, they will back away from them. The next thing you need to keep in mind is compatibility. After working with staroffice as well as word perfect, I found that neither of them had the "feel" of word or claris works. In addition there is another problem the minute you start thinking linux--it is the compatibility issue. I'm not referring to the server side of things, in fact linux was absolutely perfect for use as a netatalk server for a lab of 35 cranky mac classics. The compatibility issue I'm referring to comes from the fact that when you have an entire classroom full of students, who are using a lab to finish up a report, you NEED them to be able to pop their disk in from home, and bring the report up within a minute or two after sitting at their computer. Now think of the following scenario--you are running linux with staroffice as the main office suite. As far as I know SO doesn't have good built in support for either clarisworks, or word. (the office suites of choice in most schools) You have 30 kids in a class, 10 of which did part of the work at home. 5 of them did their work on clarisworks, the other 5 on word. As it is, there is going to be a problem when you attempt to do cross platform disk reads. Now take in to consideration that you are throwing in an alternative OS that I know first hand is VERY cranky about reading floppy disks (unless you build in some sort of automount autoformatread feature.... Here is the final thing...save off at the end of the period...Sammy, Joe, and Eric all need to finish their work at home. They save off, and when they go to bring the information up, UH OH...it is in whatever format SO or WP defaults to... Most teachers I know do not have the technical expertise to deal with situations like that. I also know firsthand, that if faced with something that proves to be EXTREMELY difficult to go around, most teachers look for alternatives esp if it deals with technology. Now computer science labs are a different beast linux would be my first choice for a CS lab...esp if they are PCs....
What? Me worry? NEVER.....
>:Linux is not a known word at my school. I think one of the big reasons is, :800 #'s, ya know ... those shitty ones. They don't understand that in :case, free IS better, free IS free, free in this case == stability, :we don't have now. Currently for the whole district, we pay about :each copy of Windows, which totals to over $50,000 for the whole :have a site license for a security program, Fortress which is :copy, Norton Antivirus, $15 a copy, MS Works and MS Office, MS :for each machine. When you total that up (which isn't all of it :easily get probably $500,000+ in SOFTWARE ALONE. The machines :E-Machines, at $600 a peice. Times that by a whole school district, :go there. So why don't they do Linux when it's free? Star Office, :free? Security wise, you don't need outside programs...
>:it's free. Usually, free things suck. The free gifts you get for calling
>those
>this
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>district. We
>about $10 a
>Office is $50
>either..) you
>are pos
>we won't
>when it's
>:
>:It's all because of support. There is no support, according to my school.
>:They want to be able to phone someone up, unless they BUY RH or some varient,
>:they don't get that. It's all really just a support issue. --
Do you, by any chance, live on Long Island? My school, Farmingdale High School,
has a setup surprisingly similar to yours, with Windows, Fortress, Office,
NAV, etc. etc. The only problem is that the setup does not work properly. The
school in increadibly lax in security, and computers have repeatedly been
comprimised. In a lab of twenty, three of them are without boot sectors on
their hard drives, five have corrupt registries, and the most important one,
which is the sole computer with a Zip drive, BSODs, usually fatally, every five
minutes due to corrupt DLLs and vxds. This does not count the fact that
virtually every computer's "preferences" are changed on a daily basis, usually
to Comic Sans MS for the default font, yellow-on-white, and strange Word
settings that inhibit normal use, or at least require precious time to access.
Network access is over some strange combination of IPX/SPX and TCP/IP, and the
NT server essentially gives everyone administrator access because the one
sysadmin is either too busy or too indifferent to set up proper security.
The network itself simply does not work, on a random basis for each
computer, and the connections are always tenous with at least 50%
packetloss (over IP, anyway.) The users in my school are increadibly
illiterate; most of them don't even know what the network is, or what the
error message "No domain server available" means, and only complain that "No
H: drive is available" to save their work on *after* they have worked on it
for forty minutes. My school makes no effort to education them on their inner
workings, only how to type in M$ Word. Most users in my school think regedit
is "too technical". At least my local computer repair establishment has a
great deal of business, despite the fact that it charges exhorbinant rates. In
my work for the yearbook and school newspaper, articles are often mangled or
outright deleted, but my proposal for passwords was called "overkill" and "too
complication". And one last thing: Each user has their own account. That is
good. The only problem is that each account's login name is the students'
student IDs, the password is the students' initials, and the students
generally use the public directories anyway.
Do you have any ideas on how to solve these problems? I find it disgusting
that my school wastes a perfectly good PIII-500 server with 256mb of memory
and twenty computers with 200mhz processors, sound cards, four gigabyte disk
drives, etc. on this crap when one of those workstations acting as a server
for thin clients would better server my school's needs and be more secure at
the same time.
So what you're saying, is that windows2000 is basically an add-on to qdos?
But of course I'm sure that you're as happy to state that linux is just tacked onto Unix 0 on some Vax machine in the mists of time.
Frankly, it's just grandpa's axe. The handle's been replaced a few times, and it's gone through 13 heads, but it's the same axe. In fact, windows2000 must be the latest upgrade from MacroSloth Abacus(tm) (17)23.
And no, gates didn't write the operating system- He never claimed to have written it. All he did was make a brilliant business decision. If you don't like the end result, blame IBM. He did however write a shitload of the stuff it came with (including the BASIC in ROM on all the old machines), and he did invent the filesystem it ran on.
-Gfunk
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Torvalds didn't buy an OS from anyone and use it as a basis for Linux. Linux was written from scratch. Then then Stallman's GNU software was added a bit later so that it actually had some decent functionality.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Linux does not contain any Minix code, and it never did. Linus happened to be using Minix (or MINIX as it's more properly known) to start developing his Linux kernel. For convenience, he wrote code to access the Minux filesystem, to share data between the two OSes. So you could say that the Linux kernel was 'inspired by' Minix - it was kind of a reaction against it, actually - but it's not 'based on' Minix.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Let me add a bit more to this.
I am *not* a part of support services. I'm tech staff, analyst, mathemagician. Support services sets up these machines for Windoze, but they won't touch anything that looks like a real OS. It isn't like they couldn't, they're certainly capable, it's simply Not Corporate Policy.
Hullo, We Do Research and Development, and we're into Unix in a fairly big way. "Oh, we don't support Unix."
So the managers who have limited budget and little direct experience have no idea what they're doing and have little basis for decision making as regards Linux. They buy the latest laptops - nice ones actually - and expect everything to be done quickly and in spare time - mine namely. To be fair, they *are* trying, but it's not enough. In between getting laptops ready for road shows, I have real deadlines to meet. When it comes to doing something with a Linux Laptop or something for which I am being reviewed as regards salary, guess which one I'm more likely to do.
I don't know how a company such as LinuxCare can get a company to buy a service such as would solve my problems, but I do see this as an opportunity.
Graham
Graham
Linux - Fast Pane Relief
- jonathan.
Does anyone remember when we all started using linux cause it was cool?? It was this REALLY GOOD operating system. Now linux is getting into a framework where everyone talks about the "business model" and the "value added" components, and the blah and the blah and the blah.
And the winner of the worst, or most cliched, term involving linux is....(drum roll)
Tim O'Reilly for "Thinking Outside the Box"
(we watch as Tim goes up to accept his award and i'm in the back puking my guts out - i shout from my station at the porcelain cubicle "I'm fucking switching to BSD")
I posted in another article that one of the large downfalls of the internet is going to be "ownership." Everyone wants to own a piece of the HUGE economic pie that is the internet. Nearly the same could be said for linux...only it's eventual downfall will be one of two things. Either a better OS comes along (probably not, as evidinced by the perennial domination of that "other" graphical based operating system), or it will sink into the myre of business based applications and corporate double-plus-unspeak. The scariest thing i see about the articles we all just read...is that the second looks like it's going to happen sooner than we think.
That's not to say that linux is going to be around forever, or die in the next two years. Linux is going to be a BIG player in the next decade....but i'm afraid that corporate big wigs are going to kill it. I'm afraid that corporate greed is going to usurp the freedom that everyone went to linux for in the first place. Why would a business open source a product that IS their cash cow? Look at Microsoft. Look at Apple. Sorenson, Real. Proprietary business looking to make a buck off linux eventually challenge the GPL and make proprietary changes (which have a frighteningly strong chance of holding up against at relatively weak GPL). They'll demand that everyone in their company use it, fuck compatibility! And they'll start using terms to describe linux, and linux based companies, that refer to "thinking outside the box" - of course, we'll need to make sure that they're "value added" (I just actually understood what the fuck that meant like a month ago).
Eventually, hackers (not the ones you saw defined in Webster's) will get sick of all the bloat that linux has become, and they'll switch to the next "linux" - (probably invented by some bolivian hacker named Binuso Torvales or something). Why? Because quick changes stoped being made, code wasn't as good as it should have been. Proprietary software wasn't just common, it was the norm. And linux turned into what it was supposed to kill. You may not like it...but if linux IS the best operating system available today (just nod, cause it is)...then we've seen it's fate in another OS. (hint, it's founder's name starts with B, and ends in "ill Gates")
I'm not saying I'm abandoning linux. That's not going to happen for a LONG time to come. I'm just saying let's watch it. Let's never forget the ethic that made most of us switch to it in the first place, not the relative bloat of Windows, but the absolute freedom of linux.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume