Slashdot Mirror
Web Design Luminary Jeff Zeldman
While we're waiting for Metallica and Douglas Adams to get back to us, we might as well go back to interviewing "normal" people. This week's (first) guest is Jeff Zeldman, Web designer extraordinaire. Some people in the design business say the best way to learn what the WWW will look like in six months is to keep up with Jeff's famous www.zeldman.com site. Whether or not this is true, he's certainly written one of the best Web design tutorials ever, and is also one of the prime movers behind the Web Standards Project. There is simply no one better to answer any Web design question you care to post below (hopefully confining yourself to one question per post).
Have you ever seen anything come from a browser publisher "extending" a standard (Microsoft, Netscape, other), and thought "Gee, I wish that was in the standard"? Examples?
I was unable to properly view your site. I received connection errors and failed to successfully download some graphics.
;)
My question is this: What design elements would you recommend revising in order to better deal with the awesome power of the Slashdot Effect, using your site as the example?
Geeky modern art T-shirts
I'm using Win95 and IE 5.
It's too small for convenient reading running at 1024x768 on a 17in monitor.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
The point is that MS *used* to be very vocal in supporting standards
making (rightly) a lot of noise about Netscape's proprietary
extensions to HTML. But now they're the biggest browser...
I hate it when I click on a hyperlink on somebody's web site and I find it popping up a new window. 99% of the time, it's unnecessary except to satisfy the ego of someone whose page is so important they want it to remain onscreen while I visit the linked-to site. This is pure arrogant self-indulgence and that goes for Zeldman too.
Listen, you "gods" of website design, and listen well: if I want a new window, I'll pop it up myself! I appreciate it that you know so much more about the Internet than I do, and that I'm fortunate to have found a web site that is willing to help me so much by popping up new windows... BUT NO THANKS! I know when I want a new window popped up, and I know how to work my browser well enough do so. So leave my windows alone! Your web site isn't so fscking special that it deserves to create its own new kind of segregation. SO CUT IT OUT!
--Jim
then why the fack don't you, this guy, although a don't agree with all his stuff, is a designer's point of view, "real" designers do it from a practical point of view, there's a difference
This guy is a 'designer' the same way John Carmack is a Ballet Dancer. Which is to say he isn't. Anyone who uses BRIGHT ORANGE backgrounds with tiny black text had damned well better be color blind to excuse themself. Gawd, maybe the site would be ok if not for the COMPLETELY UNREADABLE color scheme and font size....
The opening page can be forgiven since I'm on a fast connection, the progress bar hi-jacking is annoying as hell, but I could still live with it, but that color scheme is straight from HELL and needs to go back there.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
2. Smart but angry people who love to flame at the slightest opportunity.
This one is me.
I don't care if it is a trick, My LORD man, get that crap off of the web before you blind some innocent passerby or hopelessly corrupt millions who go to the site to get a glimpse of 'How it should be done'.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
Hmm.. sounds like basically the same setup I have. 1024x768 on a 17" monitor. I'll agree with the other response here, the font on his site is larger than that of Slashdot. It seems fine to me.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
This is only vaguely related to design, but directly related to the web, and functionality.
We all know that banners don't work anymore. The only way a business can profit from banners is to show thousands per day. Most users don't even SEE banners anymore. We avoid them the same way we dig in the couch for the remote when commercials interrupt The Simpsons.
Do you have any suggestions to make future, content-based sites profitable?
Dear Mr. best ever,
Why do you render my status bar useless with javascript mouseovers? Are you trying to disguise the state-of-the-art directory structure behind your site?
Of the recent 5k contest, which design did you like the best?
I quote from your website:
So why, tell me, WHY did you use PIXELS (px) instead of POINTS (pt), thereby overriding my painfully crafted DPI settings, rendering your all page unviewable on my Linux machine?
I worked in the UK web design market for several years.
During that time it was obvious that (graphic) design lead technology, with Macromedia for example creating flash to meet demand from, rather than inspire, web designers.
Technology was seen as a way to say 'yes' to the designer's question 'This would be really cool - can we do it?'
Do you think this is a bad thing, do you think it is as true in the US as in Europe, and do you think it will continue to be the case?
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Specifically, how bad are Netscape's problems with CSS, JavaScript, iframes, and the myriad other gripes developers hold for it?
Here's a basic answer.
When I pull the two pages up side by side Slashdot text is almost twice the size of Zeldman's. But I'm running IE in a larger than normal font size. The text I'm tying right now is half the size of the text of the message I'm replying to above it, this text would be inconvenient. However once I post the message it goes back to the way I like it.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
If you're such a hotshot web designer, why have you committed one of the cardinal sins of web design: Putting an "entry page" that does nothing but suck bandwidth and make it difficult to "back" out of a site?
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Sir:
Considering the somewhat lacking support for the features in the current specification of the W3C in both of the large-scale browsers (and some of the smaller ones), what do you feel is the best way to motivate them to become as compliant as possible? If it was as simple as users urging them, it would probably be done now. But Microsoft and Netscape still seek their own forms of 'embrace and extend' on their browsers. Any ideas as to how to try and get them to pay more attention to the standards?
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Brazil has decided you're cute.
What's with that small font www.zeldman.com, haven't you read any (web) usability guides?
Your site was the inspiration for the site I did for my wife.
Anyway, how soon do you think it will be until we can use only style sheets on our websites without worrying about graceful degredation?
This is not to say, by the way, that we shouldn't use tables, as Slashdot and I do. What do you think about Slashdot's layout? Especially the black background with the white table in front?
Do you think that current web standards will leave out more and more people as they get "fancier"?
And, if so, do you think that there is a need for a fresh start, in which browsers intelligently determine the appearance, from a user's specification, and in which servers deliver only the raw information?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Now that web designers are more and more gaining the ability to control how their pages look, users seem to have less and less.
Old school web programmers indicate this is a terrible loss. New web designers, many influenced by the firmly established print world, feel the opposite.
Do you feel that the designer, or the user, should have ultimate control?
There was a time when media would compete for readers to generate revenue from sales of the media but now the empasis seems to be to get readers to impress advertisers to part with money.
.oO0Oo.
When you design a web site should it be for the benefit of users or the benefit of page impression (i.e. splitting an article over three pages so the user gets three banner ads) and how do you balance that?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Slashdot and Zeldman are having a real laugh over this one. This is an obvious setup. I think what they're really doing is categorizing the intelligence of /. user into 4 groups:
1. Clueless people who look at the site, think it's neat, and ask Zeldman a serious question.
2. Smart but angry people who love to flame at the slightest opportunity.
3. Paranoid people determined to expose the hidden motives behind everything.
4. Ultrageeks who have seen this trick before and, recognizing the brilliance, go on to ask an interesting question about web design.
So my question: Are there any examples of your actual web design? Can we see them?
See http://www.websitesthatsuck.com/badnavigation.html for more info.
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As an example of this, many sites (including yours) use <font size=1> to acheive a font that is fairly uniform in pixel size across browsers. Anyone with a high-resolution screen will tell you that this is highly annoying, since it results in an almost unreadable font. Forcing netscape to use a larger font size often destroys the layout of the page. What's worse, some pages use dynamic fonts and other features to force this on the user.
As another example, many pages use the <table>, and <layer> to specify the exact size in pixels of portions of the page, and then put a little notice at the bottom ("This site best viewed at 800x600") or some such.
What are standards groups doing to fix this? Will I be looking at pages designed for 800x600 (or worse, 640x480) with my 1920x1440 screen forever? Will persons with laptops at 640x480 be unable to read the web soon? Will standards bodies ever require percentage-of-screen width and height specifiers, or even better, implement <table width=30ch> to specify sizes in relation to the current font size?
--Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
any how can you support "some" of css2 and claim 100% standards compliance?
They aren't claiming 100% compliance with every standard, just the ones they listed, html 4.0, css1, DOM, etc. They specifically state that css2 is not fully supported yet (i think they said it was 40 or 60% supported, and counting).
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Am I the only one who thinks that the text is not small? I'm running win95 with netscape 4.7 here at work and the font size seems fine to me. Larger than most sites even. What platform/browser are you using?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I don't care about the "ugliness" of the site that many people complained about. I care about content rather than style. I'll return again and again to the ugliest site in the world, as long as it has content that I am interested in.
.GIF file. I have seen pages like that.)
As to whether the site has any content at all, I can not tell. It displays on my Sun workstation in a font that is only very slightly more readable than a "greeked" iconized xterm. That is, by putting my nose up against the CRT and squinting real hard, I can make out about one word in three.
Netscape on the Sun does not have the ALT-[ ALT-] commands to increase and decrease the font, so in order to read this page, I would have to either "Show Source" and read the HTML source, or go into my Netscape preferences and tell it "Reasonable size font, and use my font no matter what the idiot document says to use." This *sometimes* helps; I haven't tried it with this site. Since he's going so far as to specify his page at the pixel level, I suspect this might be one of the sites whose author has taken great pains to override all reader preferences.
I hate setting the "use only my font" config, because sites which use reasonable fonts often use them for reasonable purposes, and I don't want to lose that in my web browsing.
Normally, sites that are so thoroughly unreadable as this one, I hit the "Back" button on my browser. That's what I did with this one.
("Small favors" department: At least he didn't render his preferred page layout into a
(Desired feature for Mozilla: A "minimum font size" config tag which triggers a "display everything in Times-Roman 12, period, no exceptions" rule.)
AFAIK: The internet has already fallen victim to this type of thing. Internet II is an attempt to restore it to it's former information based roots. I'm pretty sure I2 is funded primarily by universities.
Finkployd
So the future of the web is difficult to read, ignores standards, has no clear navigation and is generally irritating and pointless?
I'm just worried that he's probably right.
PigPog.
Your site uses rollovers at almost every opportunity.
What do they add to the users experience ?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Like I said in my other post this probably some kind of example of bad web design, so small fonts is something to be expected..
Well, the headline calls him a "web design luminary", right? That's among the most luminous pages I've ever seen.
I have no idea about you and your views, but I have read lots of the Alertbox columns by Jakob Nielsen.
Do you agree with him? Do you disagree? What about?
At least you share the use of TITLE attributes in hyperlinks (a good feature that Slashdot shouldn't chomp away).
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Jeff --
I know you're part of the whole Web Standards Project. A key plank in the platform seems to be fighting the placement of propietary interests above baseline support for standards, as seen in the recent IE 5.5 for Win-32 brouhaha. To me it seems that one could change a few words, and phrase the following question:
What is your stance on the apparent shift of the web from an open community to one ruled by territorialism and propetism, i.e. web and software patents?
Just curious Jeff....
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
While I see nothing wrong with pages with annoying javascript and bright colors that hurt my eyes -- there's always the Back button -- I do see something wrong with these people ignoring the standards. Most of his code is pretty clean, so it wouldn't take much work to fix the five or ten errors that the W3C validator returns.
I'm tired of web designers that think, "Hey, it works in MSIE and Netscape, who cares about the ohters?" This is especially amusing since one of the first links on the page is to the Web Standards Project. *sigh*
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I imagine that following the post by FascDot Killed My Pr, a lot of the posts will have a similar structure. So I'm defining a macro to avoid repetition:
#define WHY If you're such a hotshot web designer, whyUsing this definition, here is my question:
WHY does www.webstandards.org open links in a new browser window, when this behaviour is inconsistent with the rest of the Web, annoying, and strongly discouraged by the W3C?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I don't care about the little graphic at the top of the page that subsidises a web site so that I may have a more cost effective browsing experience.
What I do object to is when said ad holds my page load hostage for fourty seconds on a cable modem at that.
A standard I would like to see is a maximum load time for any web page element or something to that effect. Any ideas?
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
I find it hard to ask HTML questions to someone who has committed the cardinal sin of taking away the status bar with JavaScript.
mr.nobody
--Don't you wanna go where nobody knows your name?
Do you think 6.0 will bring it close to IE's level of functionality?
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Oscarfish.com: tropical fish with attitude. Way t
Jeff, I programmed for a web design company in which design issues totally trumped more practical concerns like download time. (In one case, I was forced to create absurdly complex html tables just so that the designer could get his one-pixel rounded corners on his notecard design.) What do you see as the appropriate balance between aesthetics and practical usability?
P.S. That company is now out of business, thank goodness!
-- Diana Hsieh
-- Diana Hsieh
GeekPress: The Weirder Side of Tech News
I can see where exciting design tricks are usful for, say, a magazine or TV show. But on the web, where I for one am working with a low resolution monitor and (often) a text based connection, and where others may be using anything from IE5 on a shiny new Mac to the default browser on a Palm VII, I have a hard time seeing the point in making flashy 'designed' web pages. The 'benefit' of having to turn off javascript just to be able to read the font that looked best on your monitor just doesn't work for me. But then again, I'm not the fancy web designer, I'm just a happy little page minimalist.
At least your pages seem to work okay when I disable the gadgetry -- that's an excellent start. And it also looks okay in Lynx -- an easy thing to do, but too often overlooked (as it translates into "looking good" on palmtops, for search engines, and on alternative browsers for e.g. the blind). I give you points for that. But I still don't see the point -- the benefit -- of all the flashiness. Maybe it's just my sense of aesthetics -- I like a nice clean simple site, without all the trappings (think photo.net. Different strokes...
I guess that's the gist of my question though: when there are so many benefits to having a straightforward, Lynx friendly site, and when it takes so much effort to get an "enhanced" site to degrade to the older level, what exactly do you gain by the effort? What, in short, makes it worthwhile?
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
What would you change, what would you add, what would you remove in Slashdot?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Easy - write to the standards and only to the standards. Of course, as you point out, it's not always that simple, with people clamouring for overladen JavaScript, Flash, DHTML and the latest stupid gimmick. Just Say No :-)
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I've seen a lot of criticism of your Zeldman.com site here in these forums. I've been reading alistapart recently, and I think the design there is very pleasing to the eye.
Are you trying more experimental stuff with your peronal site that you wouldn't try with a commercial site like alistapart?
What other sites have you done recently that you are proud of?
Why haven't the dead ads been updated recently? No good ones coming in?
I work as a web programmer. The company where I work was recently acquired by a high-profile (for my location) communications firm. The new company has great print skills, but almost everyone here is old-school.
About once a day, I find myself telling one of the suits that "The web is not print."
My question: Do you have any suggestions for getting the traditional artists of the world to recognize the web as a new medium, and not just print-on-a-monitor?
How hopeful are you that Microsoft can be coaxed into making IE
standards compliant? What exactly do you think Microsoft's motive was
in not supporting HTML 4.0 completely?
Does that mean that in six months the entire web will be.... ORANGE? Noooooooooooooooo!
Obviously, one wants to reach as large an audience as possible, but not "lag behind" too far. How do you go about balancing the use of newer technology on a site without alienating users of older software, disabled users, and text-only browsers?
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We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
Let me explain. Right now any Joe Schmoe can put up a web site, and have the potential to serve 100,000 pages a day. When INTERNET II comes along, we'll all be competing with expanded rich multimedia content, FMV, etc... that only large corporations have the ability to do right. HTML won't cut it anymore.
Will this kill the nature of the internet as we know it?
tcd004
Here's my Microsoft parody, where's yours?
With sites like http://www.halfbrain.com/ and http://www.mywebos.com/, how far do you think will the integration of (X)HTML, CSS and ECMAScript go? Will this be our "new" desktop for the future?
I think there's too much concern on the web with form over content. Slashdot is a prime example, this is not the optimal form, but nevertheless they provide enough entertaining, timely, and relevant content that they have tons and tons of ridiculously loyal readers. This is because, of course, the best content is the sum of the users themselves, which /. achieves perfectly.
And I think orange is ugly, so I don't dig zeldman's site. It's just too bright
Here's some content for ya, if you care about your feedom at all, vote for Ralph Nader!
And is he really a great web designer? He has a broken link right on the front page... http://www.zeldman.com/orson.html is what the "if movies had been websites" points to. And the mozilla link is broken too.
What we need is a daily page done by an AI personality, now that'll be cool
___________________________
Michael Cardenas
http://www.fiu.edu/~mcarde02
http://www.deneba.com/linux
hyperpoem.net
Someday (hopefully within a couple months) I may have to deal with the slashdot effect, with my Homebrew MP3 player project, which is open source, but at the moment only in a just barely working state.
My question, specifically from your recent experience, is how should one deal with the slashdot effect, knowing that is coming.
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
With the large division between the standard HTML and the HTML tags that broswers like IE5 and Netscape will use and other division such as the fragmentation of the XML development base, what can Internet community users, SysAdmins and other industry users do to promote a unified standards base for platforms such as HTML and XML. I know that the old "Don't use IE5 becuase of..." stuff simply isn't going to work in the real world. What I'm looking for is a real, meaningful way to unite users and developers to conform to true standard.
Some people take their .sig way too seriously
Zeld-mon, I would just like to hear your two bits about Mozilla, not just as a standards compliant browser (which Gecko certainly is) but as an application deployment platform as some advocates/developers are claiming. If Mozilla does become such a beast, the nature of the game will almost certainly be changed, especially re: Microsoft's desktop domination. Do you see real potential for Mozilla to evolve into such a platform, or are the developers getting over-exuberant? - Rev.