id Software Announces Development Of Doom III

Stab writes: "John Carmack updated his .plan file with the startling news that id has had a bit of political infighting recently. In response to an ultimatum laid down to Kevin and Adrian regarding starting a new DOOM sequel, they fired Paul Steed! Read the full story in JC's .plan update." The important news here is that they're working on Doom III, but the decision to do so was a rough one for the company, not the developers. Note to Kevin and Adrian: Firing developers out of spite ain't cool.

Comments

OK, and here it is

[Frodo]

Site seems to be slashdotted, so here's the copy:

6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting .plan update.

Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated
explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.

As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM
as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill
to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea
that it was shot down over and over again.

Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the
mission pack development and my research work.

Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan,
the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what
we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and
more like we weren't going down the right path.

I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was
important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.

An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company):
We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.

Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed,
new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.

It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a
new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand
new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to
say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We
will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving
misleading comments.

It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.

Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.

Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for
dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".

I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be
one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.

We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you
have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider
yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.

finger johnc@idsoftware.com | less; avoid HTTP

[korpiq]

The site is /.'ed, but this seems to be the real source to get the .plan anyway.

Ugh!

[Bad Mojo]

Ok, go read the .plan update! Then come back and finish reading. Carmack explains things to a certain degree in the .plan file.

Basically, so far, is seems Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (no relation) have had a fit over J. Carmack and gang wanting to work on a Doom remake. No matter what game id cranks out, it's going to sell at least marginally well. I can see no justification for two guys to fire Paul Steed just to get back at Carmack for doing what he and the development staff WANT to work on.

It reeks of arrogance so far and I really hope Steed gets back on the project. While he's known to be an asshole, I think he's the right guy to work on Doom 2000 models and animations. And in the end, I trust J. Carmack over Adrian and Kevin when it comes to what is a good game and who is good for the job.

And many people have been giving Carmack shit for exposing this publically. Well, good. I like to know why Steed is gone and what kind of position Carmack is in. I hope I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but Carmack seems to be the kind of guy who just wants to be left alone to do his own thing and not deal with politcal business crap.

Until Kevin and Adrian have some kind of rational other than, "we don't want to do D2K", shame on them!

Bad Mojo

Re:Slashdot joining in on the battle

[Bad Mojo]

Carmack has, in the past, been a very even keeled, logical person. Maybe it's all an act, but I really don't think he is being untruthful in his representation of the situation.

It's also worth noting that Carmack seems to just want to code and work on something fun. There is much wonder as to wether id would be where it is without him. I don't think it would be for sure. To deny Carmack (and the others there) to work on a project they enjoy seems to be cutting into the way id has worked in the past. id is not a BIG company and they don't work like one. So any attitude that the major share holders are always right, is wrong.


Bad Mojo

Still prefer Doom to Quake....

[maroberts]

Dunno why, but I still think Doom is spookier and more enthralling than Quake and its sequels. Somehow, there's a greater feeling of fear when going round the corner knowing there could be a whole horde of bad guys, instead of just one or two, and I think the lower quality music, which reminds me of John Carpenter movies for some reason, paradoxically added to the aura the game just radiates.

Problem I can see is, how would Doom 3 build on the earlier Doom games ? I suspect better resolution bad guys may paradoxically lower the creepiness factor.

For fun and sillyness, I think cooperative multiplayer Nightmare Doom, with monsters, has a lot to recommend it. Seems to get to the point where all the monsters are congregating round the resurrection points and you can't get anywhere....

Re:Firing and hiring in the same .plan

[EvlG]

He describes how a developer got canned for political reasons and then in the same post says that id is looking to hire.

Move along folks, no conspiracy here.

OF COURSE he is looking to hire. If you just lost a wonderful 3D Artist, wouldn't you want to get another one right away?

Re:Firing and hiring in the same .plan

[EvlG]

Remember, Carmack owns a substantial portion of id as well. So they could force him out, just as the owners forced Romero out a few years back (he was a part owner as well.)

Now as to the wisdom of such an action....well, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

That tense, adrenalized (sp?) feeling =:-)

[drenehtsral]

I still remember back when BBS's were the thing and DOOM had just come out. My friend Karl who was working doing some really high-power computer stuff (i think he was working on something for 3d studio) that required him to have a 486dx-50, 40 meg of ram, and a 21 inch monitor. He used to have these parties called "geekfests" where all the local BBS geeks would get to gether and hang out.
In any case, the one where i first experienced DOOM in it's fullness was there, in a darkened room, with the 21" in front of me, and his sound card hooked up to the stereo. That feeling of your heart racing as you creep down a darkened passageway and have one of those ugly pink buggers with the lumpy heads come loking up on you is just unbeatable. Only a couple games ever gave me that feeling. It would be the following: Alien Breed (on the Amiga. Basicly a gauntlet knock off, but with Alien dudes, and _awesome_ sound), DOOM, and Alone In The Dark, which i wish somebody would remake for modern 3D technology. AITD was basicly like that old nintendo game "shadowgate" but realtime 3rd person 3d. Cool =:-)

So what does this mean...

[imac.usr]

...for the Doom movie?

*SIGH*

[eVarmint]

Well, yet again we will probably see another round of 3D-technology pushing to enhance "realism" in a game where you can run full speed carrying hundreds of pounds of weapons and never get tired.

Death, where is thy sting?

Re:*SIGH*

[Borealis]

If realism was the goal then it wouldn't be much fun.

Imagine the following:

Let's see, a demon that fires balls of fire...oops, forgot they don't exist.

How about a plasma gun that...oh yeah, nobody's ever built a working plasma gun that's smaller than a boxcar...

Ok, how about..oh hell, just scrap it.

In general, for a *game* you keep what's fun and scratch what's not. It's not fun to "realistically" model fatigue from running with a full kit for most people. It is fun to "realistically" model the physics of bouncing objects and light diffraction because it increases the suspension of disbelief by making the world you're gaming in more similar to our own in an immediately visible sense. Perhaps if we develop a neural shunt that allows us to feel weight then it would make sense to model carrying load and fatigue.

If you feel differently, make your own game, perhaps others feel as you do. You could call it "quiver" (for what you're legs do when you pick up 500 odd rounds of ammo for various weapons, and 200 pounds of hardware + body armor).

This is bad in so many ways

[mhelie]

Id is too small a company to allow for any kind of infighting. Sadly, this means that Id as we know it is likely finished.

• Possibility number 1: Adrian and Kevin undermine the entire development of Doom III to prove their point. If they were willing to fire an employee IN RETALIATION, they have the guts to kill a product simply out of spite. Expected result: Id goes under.
• Possibility number 2: Company relations go down the shitter faster than they did at Ion Storm. John Carmack says "fuck this" and leaves. Without the only man who keeps this company alive, Id goes under.
• Possibility number 3: John Carmack and, say, Activision try to buy back A & K's shares. They won't sell, and the company goes under.

When company owners disagree violently on the direction their business is taking, there are two possible outcomes: someone leaves, or the place fights until it's out of money.

Goodbye ID. Thanks for all the fish.

"The advance of technology is a problem for us"

Doom Wars...

[Pollux]

What'd they threaten John with? The BFG-9000?

Carmack should stand up for Steed

[ooPo]

If Steed was in fact fired because of Carmack and crew were rebelling, and if he really wanted to avoid the political atmosphere of the office, he should leave id. I wouldn't want to work in a place that would fire someone else to get back at me, instead that would say I'm good enough to leave and do some good work somewhere else. (I'd have to watch the ego, though...)

Seriously, take the loyal talent and start somewhere else. This would be the perfect time to leave before getting into the middle of the next project. Sure, it wouldn't be doom, but you know it would be something nifty and fun, right?

It just seems wrong that the people who made id aren't the people who get a say in what it does. There's a whole group of talented people possibly going to go to waste here... who's next to be fired? Who would want to work there based on this kind of display? Isn't it hard to be creative when you're watching your back or fighting just to get your job done?

I just can't imagine sitting at a desk working on Doom 3 and accepting that I got my wish and it only cost one guy his job. That's bad karma, man.

Carmack, you've got the talent to make it work. Do the right thing. A lot of people are looking up to you...

Cool

[Hard_Code]

I just have to say this rox my sox off.

I always thought Doom had a much more believable environment, atmosphere...even though it didn't have neat-o polygon graphics. Doom (hey, and even Wolf3d) kept me on the edge of my seat a lot more than Quake or Quake 2 did. I hope id is returning to spending a lot of time creating a rich atmosphere instead of just throwing more graphics on the screen at a faster rate (which I agree is itself a great accomplishment that has taken a tremendous amount of skill and effort).

I can't wait to get back to that good ole double barrel shotgun ;)

I'm liking this

[subtraho]

I've always said that Doom and Doom II were better than the newer games, for the simple reason that they were just so much more immersive. I can only hope that Doom III lives up to their high standards of atmosphere and mood.

Call it nostalgia, whatever, but there was some magic in firing up Doom shareware for the first time on my old 486-66 w/ 4MB RAM, and just playing for hours, completely immersed in the game. When I got Doom II, I couldn't put it down for weeks, it just drew me into it.. no other game before or since, except Diablo, has ever had that effect on me.

I used to have nightmares about cyberdemons :) I Still think they're pretty damn scary for an image on a screen.. they just have this aura of "ultimate badass" that makes you run at full speed away..

Last August, a friend of mine and I decided, on a whim, to relive past glories and play some Doom II deathmatches again.. well, we did that, and it was still as fun as it ever had been (fancy 3d graphics be damned! gameplay is still king *grin*).. so fun, in fact, that we then played through all 33 levels cooperatively.. I can't remember the last time I had so much pure enjoyment from any game. It was bliss.

Wow

[Zoid]

One thing I learned about JohnC with my three and a half years with id--he's extremely to the point.

Well, I'm not surprised that he (and others there) would like to make another DOOM. DOOM was a very successful product and an incredible game. Capturing its spirit will be a challenge since a lot of DOOM's factors were in its ability to give you such an impending sense of danger and power:

• DOOM featured rooms of dozens upon dozens of enemies. This was something that just wasn't feasible in Quake or Quake2 with the limitations of the number of polygons on screen. I hope that JohnC has some solutions to achieving this.
  
• DOOM had one of the best musical scores of any video game.
  
• The monster design was amazing. I remember screaming when I first encountered the Cyberdemon and the fear he instilled into me.
  
• DOOM only had LAN based play (and modem one vs one). A proper client and server arcitecture for DOOM based deathmatch would just simply rock.
  
• DOOM had insane player speeds. The DOOM guy ran almost twice as fast as the Quake guy did in relation to the world. Such speeds aren't really condusive to internet play since it makes prediction harder. However, I hope those insane speeds make it into the new DOOM.
  

But there are some issues--when DOOM came out, people were new to the first person shooter genre and one of the reasons DOOM was such a fun game was as you learned how to play you started being able to kill monsters better. These days I (and most experienced players) can run rings around a Cyberdemon and toy with him. DOOM taught me how to strafe, dammit. :)

It's a shame to see Paul let go. He was certainly one who didn't have any problem expressing his opinions. But he could sure pound out some amazing 3D models. His work in Quake2 and Quake3 was outstanding--it's sad to see his art won't be in the new DOOM.

A part of me is upset with my own disassocation with id. I would have loved working on DOOM CTF levels. :)

In any case, I can't wait to see what id can come up with in a new DOOM. I want to be scared all over again.

There must be more than meets the eye.

[jutus]

Firstly, for Paul Steed to have been hired by id no doubt implies that he was a very talented employee.

Remember that JC's .plan is the voice of one employee in a company. A lot of posts seem to revere his words as the gospel truth. I'm sure management has their side of the story. I greatly respect JC's opinion when it comes to the tech side of things and performing sacriligious surgery on ferrari engines but for internal company politics his voice should be weighed as heavily as any other id employee.

My suspicion is that Steed's firing must have been a result of more than just this one incident. It may have been the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. I don't think management would draw sticks or do the poisoned donut routine to determine who-gets-the-shaft-so-we-can-get-back-at-cormack. There must have been some reasoning behind their move.

Making a soap opera of id's internal politics may be entertaining for us, but personally I don't think it is any of our business. How many companies would allow employees to publically release information about internal politics like JC did?

It's a shame when any skilled employee has to leave a company because of social reasons and not because of lack of proficiency. I hope Steed's career goes well (I'm sure it will), and that life at id will continue normally (not likely).

My sympathies to Steed and id.

remember... it's just a game.

- j

Wish I'd seen that before I hired on.

[ddt]

Zoid's a sweetie, but he's understating things just a tad.

I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but id's politics have always been incredibly severe. It's sort of a treehouse/boy's club atmosphere, very charged with adrenaline, egos, and testosterone. I loved it and contributed to it. It's an infectious behavior. Romero and Kevin, in particular, would use their 18 Charismas to make the politics fun. Don't ask me how that's possible. You'd have to be there. It's very colourful. You forgive the atmosphere pretty quickly when they start plopping multiple 5- and 6-figure bonuses in your lap.

But it's actually nice to see John put that in his plan file. It's more truthful advertising if the prospective employees know what's going on behind the curtain. These same kind of politics affect your bonuses, your workload, and frankly your general health if you're prone to stress-related problems like ulcers, skin problems, or gum disease. You guys would be pretty shocked to hear the real stories of how several of id's talented people left the company, but it's never a binary, "He humped a farm animal on company time."

This is definitely not the sign of an id implosion. Kevin and Adrian won't be pleased about John's plan file, but they're fundamentally level-headed businessmen and will probably get over it. John won't stop coding. Everything he does is fun to work with, and if they fire John, the daily miracles that time the id engine will simply move elsewhere.

I do ABSOLUTELY recommend if you're a talented artist to apply for the position. It's an adventure unlike anything you'll embark. You'll make grievous wads of cash. You'll gape at the bizarre effects of instant media focus. You'll get to watch and learn from some of the industry's finest talent. You'll fear for your mortal soul if you get a ride from John to work. You'll have access to almost any software tool or piece of hardware you want to get your hands on.

It's a growth experience.

Open letter to John Carmack

[Pope]

John:

Please, for the love of god, don't make this one brown.



Pope

Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!

Note to Emmett

[coj]

"Note to Kevin and Adrian: Firing developers out of spite ain't cool. "

Assuming that one person's comments sum up the objective truth of a matter also ain't cool. 9)

-Ed

Whoopee.

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

Doom III? Will it be as good as Bill and Ted's II, Back to the Future III and Rocky XXXIV?

I realize that everyone reading this story gets a hardon when you say the word "Doom" and so I can kiss karma goodbye, but come on! Wolfenstein was revolutionary. Doom was "advanced". Everything since then is "copycat". Yes, even the stuff from id.

Will we ever get beyond 1st person shooters? Don't give me crap about "Quake is revolutionary, some of the monsters are green" either. I want a NEW GAME. I don't want to play the SAME GAME except for the requirement of a NEW VIDEO CARD.
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?

This gives me a bad feeling...

[Simon Brooke]

In every company I've been in, if the fighting's got so bad that you let it leak out to potential customers, the company is finished. Dead. Kaput. Every company has fights, but when senior people are criticising other senior people in public you don't have a team any more. Await implosion.

oh gee another game my sister can beat me at

[DGregory]

I have to say, I played Doom only once, and played it against my (then) 8 yr old sister (I was 20) and she beat me really really bad. I haven't had any desire to play those kinds of games ever since. I still have not lived down that kind of humiliation.

yay!

[DrEldarion]

This is great... But will it be the same Doom that we all know and love? Or will it be Quake in a Doom setting?

-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.

Various Doom versions...

[Midnight Ryder]

Actually, there are already quite a few versions of Doom with some updated technology in them. OpenGL implementations are a good example (though the first GLDoom didn't get finished, unluckly :-( ) There are hacks that add better handling of sectors for more advanced maps, hacks that add the look up / look down, all sorts of stuff.

Depending on what you mean by Doom with 'updated tech', just adding better graphics won't bring it up to par with Quake3 or Unreal Tournament. Doom uses 2D sprites, which only leaves 8 positions that the bad guys can be viewed from (on the up side - that's also the reason why you can have tons and tons of enemies on screen without major slowdowns!) Look up / Down is highly problematic (partialy because of the 2D sprite issue), the maps are "2.5 D" maps - while they have a height setting, areas cannot cross over each other, etc., etc., etc.

Doom is pretty old tech... Damn I love Doom still! Just upgrading the tech isn't quite enough, however, it would require a complete re-write, and everyone would end up bitching about some of the failings of Doom if they didn't. I do hope they do the next Doom correct - a nice scary atmosphere, tons of monsters, etc.

Meanwhile - go look at some of the current modified Doom engines out there:

Doom Legacy offers quite a few extended things from Doom, including 32 player multi-player games

DoomWorld is a good site for tracking down all the other Doom source ports and modifications, plus news of things like Doom for Daikatana (why?), Doom for QA3, etc.

Let me guess...

[gonerill]

... Doom III is going to be a wholly new sort of game, right? Maybe a synthesis of Civilization, The Sims and Eric's Ultimate Solitaire?

I don't think so. Perhaps the reason that there was a huge fight inside ID about this (and we've only heard one side of it, remember) is that the company's owners know what the phrase "One Trick Pony" means.

I remember playing Doom for the first time as vividly as anyone. But what all the Doom-nostalgics out there don't seem to realise is that it is impossible for you to re-live the experience you had when when you first played Doom. You can't pretend you've never played a game like it before. You can't roll the clock back. Read Proust and see for yourself. That's what being nostalgic means, and why nostalgia is related to melancholy. You're want to relive a past experience but you can't.

The only thing that's going to produce a similar experience --- that "Oh my God I'm completely absorbed by this amazing new thing" feeling --- is a wholly new kind of game, and sadly Doom III ain't going to be it, by definition. By embarking on this project, Id are starting to look like the Microsoft of gaming: Doom, Doom 95, Doom 2000... and I bet that's why Kevin and Adrian made such a fuss over the project.

Foolish and Unprofessional!

[LaNMaN2000]

In the gaming industry, the developers are generally representative of the consumer base. The excitement that the development team brought to a project could certainly be an indicator of how well the product would sell and it is foolish for management to ignore it.

That being said, I cannot understand why anybody would respond to the request for applications that was posted in that .plan file. Given the situation surrounding the firing of Steed, a new employee is likely to be confronted with a somewhat hostile work environment when he arrives.

The firing of Steed casts a cloud around the eventual release of Doom III and the need to train another employee at this time could delay or reduce the quality of the product. id's behavior in this case is very unprofessional and management clearly did not consider the best interests of the company or the consumers.