Slashdot Mirror
id Software Announces Development Of Doom III
Stab writes: "John Carmack updated his .plan file with the startling news that id has had a bit of political infighting recently. In response to an ultimatum laid down to Kevin and Adrian regarding starting a new DOOM sequel, they fired Paul Steed! Read the full story in JC's .plan update." The important news here is that they're working on Doom III, but the decision to do so was a rough one for the company, not the developers. Note to Kevin and Adrian: Firing developers out of spite ain't cool.
Wasn't it IPX/SPX or something un-TCP/IP like.
Their code is obviously a bit more scalable now. Modem play could transfer 15MB each way on my 56K under Q2 in a couple of hours. Playing on the LAN probably a lot more. We used to have up to 12 of use playing Q2 at the end of the day at work over 100Mbs ethernet. It did cause slow-downs, but our sub-net was isolated from the rest of the company, so that was no big deal really.
Except it WAS "iD".
Carmack did have no respect for the MacOS. Rightly. But what you've forgotten is Carmack's legendary woody for NEXTSTEP. Doom was, in fact, developed on NEXTSTEP (I run it all the time on my NeXTStation TurboColor), and he has repeatedly and enthusiastically plugged its development model.
JC's renewed enthusiasm for Apple is easy to understand, now that Jobs and the NeXT crew are running Apple, and OS X is basically NEXTSTEP 5.x
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Hey, lots of cool games involve running through tunnels killing things...
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
Commander Keen was cool...neato side scroller, nifty little alien buggers...
Umm, what the difference? He was one of their main developers. Not a programmer, but he was a member of the game development team nonetheless.
As an animation/modeler, he had as much a hand in shaping the Quake legacy as JC, IMHO.
Check the Blues News archives from the past few days, Zoid. Someone just made a program that would allow Doom DM to run in a client/server manner. :)
That's pretty cool. It's still rather far from the same experience. No player prediction and its still got a log of bugs.
I was also meaning the mulitplayer experience with the new DOOM game would be great. Adding a server based multiplayer to old DOOM is cool and all, but I drool at playing a new DOOM with a new Carmack enhanced engine over the 'net.
/// Zoid.
there wouldn't be a chance of a zoid map-pack?
:)
No promises.
/// Zoid.
I hope they don't use the original networking code from DOOM. I saw a game where the LAN went down because too many people were firing chain guns. :)
Hopefully this won't be a stupid Q3A type thing. Single player mode is also quite a bit of fun, plus it gives those of us with slow connections something to do between lan parties.
I saw Paul Steed do a talk on modeling at a Quake-con a while back. He really knows his stuff... I can't wait to see who is lucky enough to get him next!
Apple is no more getting rid of MacOS than Microsoft is getting rid of windows9x. They're keeping the best parts and replacing the worst parts to make MacOS X.(Why not call it Mac OS 10 if we're supposed to pronounce it that way?)
Steve was the boss at NeXT when he was ousted from Apple.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Carmack's change of heart came within months after Apple scrapped Copeland and announced Rhapsody. Everyone was expecting Apple to snap up Be and incorporate BeOS into the MacOS, but instead they grabbed NeXT. Within a year Rhapsody (later to become MacOS X) was announced. Shortly thereafter is when Carmack changed his mind.
What do I care anyway? I'm done buying id games anyway. DeathMatch Du Jour with nothing new but spiffed up graphics isn't groundreaking or even noteworthy.
Quake like type games are more innovative than the originals. Half-Life for example was far more original than Q2 or Q3. Carmack and id are just living off of the hype from previous successes.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
The MacOS is not a fixed entity. System 1 that shipped back in 1984 is completely unrecognizeable compared to MacOS 9.0.4, there is a process by which it has evolved. The MacOS is, by definition, the OS that Apple makes for Macs.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Win 9x has no preemptive multitasking. Win 9x has no protected memory. Where was Carmack's lack of respect there?
Want to lock up a Win 95 box tight?
#include
main(){
here: goto here;
return 0;}
The task scheduler will choke die if you run a program that wants only CPU and no memory or disk access.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I lost all respect for him long ago. I remember once he said that he had "No respect for the MacOS" and that he wouldn't do any development for that platform. Yet after a few minutes with Steve Jobs he's all gung ho apple.
Although I was disappointed because at the time I was an apple enthusiast. I would have had more respect for Carmack if he had either stuck to his guns or given a good reason for his change of heart.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I'm curious what Emmett's idea of a "cool" way of running a business is. Seeing as Slashdot/VA_Linux is losing money hand-over-fist, I really don't think he's qualified. I'm sure people like him and Jon Katz think that it's "cool," in that trite I-wanna-be-a-rebel way, when a subordinate makes ultimata to the people running the show, but it's really not amusing in the least. Oh well, maybe his pals in the unemployment line will enjoy the tales of his tough-guy antics.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Kinda blows the point. I play games because they are games. If I want realism, I run around the block carrying bricks until I get tired and pass out.
Linux O Muerte!
IIRC wasn't the music done by Bobby Prince, didn't he sell a CD with the Doom music played on a high end Roland synth? I have MIDI recordings of the Doom and Descent soundtracks, they rock on my GUS. Music really can make a game, I look forward to what they create. BTW: What ever happended to the Wolfenstein 2000 project?
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
Doom is still one of the best FPS's around, both in single and multiplayer mode. The sounds are just amazing, Doom is the only game where the music and monster sounds have ever scared me. Sure, the graphics are bit dated, but engines like glDoom and Doom3D, it doesn't look bad at all. I still play Doom occasionally and let me tell you: the game is just as good now as it was five years ago.
http://finger.planetqu ake.com/plan.asp?userid=johnc&id=14425
From a technical standpoint, MacOS is all but dead. The only remnant is the compatibility layer, Blue Box or whatever it's called, to allow the older Mac software to run under MacOS X.
The UI has changed; refined, reworked, upgraded, facelifted, whatever. It's not the MacOS anymore, any more or less than Windows98 is MacOS
The OS/kernal/core/system itself is different. Mach Kernel with BSD atop that, with NeXTisms atop that. Nothing in common with the traditional MacOS.
So the analogy with M$ is Apple is getting rid of MacOS to make MacOS X in the same way that M$ got rid of Windows9x to make WindowsNT or WindowsCE. There are compatibility layers for both, but it's underlying OS is non compatibile and unsimilar.
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
So(prolly cuz I'm browsing high level and all ^^) I'm not seeing any comments on what would make DoomIII rock...
Lots of monsters on screen at once!
Monsters that don't get along...
Monsters that do get along...
Real time lighting and shadow. Seeing monsters moving in the darkness
Better directional sound! Immersion here!
Squadron tactics. Wiping out of demons as a team!
Voice over Network... JC always talks about it, lets hear it for real!
Of course we need tactically useful music...
Gadgets: Cloaking suits, night vision goggles, holographic decoys, etc.
Anything else?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I always thought John had *control* of id, now it's obvious that he does not.
He controls the technology side, but there's a lot more to producing a game than making great engines.
If two rogue employees hold more than 50%
They are't rogue employees, I belive both Adrian and Kevin were co-founders of id (correct me if I'm wrong about that) with John Carmack and John Romero.
What's next, Carmack is fired because he wants to use reflective light sources that Kevin and Adrian are totally against?
Carmack has the last word on anything having to do with engine technology. Kevin (I belive) does the art for the games and Adrian is more on the business side (again, correct me if I'm wrong.)
Romero did a lot on game design, which IMHO is why the atmosphere of Doom and Quake kicked ass while the atmosphere of Quake 3 and especially Quake 2 blows nuts.....
Deathmatch is simply old and boring now and co-op is where it's at, at least for me and my friends when we do LAN parties.
Good for you, but I don't expect them to spend a lot of time on it because multiplayer is where its really at for most gammers. Get tired of deathmatch, try CTF or team fortress or one of the zillions of mods comming out for Quake 3, along with all the ones available for Quakes 1 and 2.
Not suprisingly, many of you guys are hoping that DOOM 3 will stay true to the original and not just be Quake 4. While I agree with this, I'm not so sure id will stay true to the original very far.
.plan (about DOOM 3) was that he said it would focus on single player gameplay, which contradicts what I originally suspected he'd be working on.
As you know, JC has recently been in "research" mode, and I'm sure JC is well-aware of the "yet another FPS" complaints. For these 2 reasons, it leads me to believe that DOOM 3 will take a different direction than previous DOOMs. The most suprising part of his
What other direction can a FPS-series take? I'm not sure, but I really suspect we're in for a surprise. The people at id seemed to reject Adrian's request for DOOM 3 for the same reasons some of you guys would probably, and I'm sure they took that into consideration.
A few years back, I purchased the id Anthology boxed set, which included Quake, All the Dooms (including the supposed "Final Doom"), and everything made before (Such as all the Commander Keens, Wolfenstein's, etc.) Now, I love doom, so I'm not really mad that they're making more dooms after the final doom, but I am kind of afraid that they'll bring back Commander Keen...
Yeah, there were at least two things in DOOM that scared me more than any other game so far.
1: The first time you meet one of the "invisible" versions of the pink demons. I freaked - shooting the shotgun off at random all over the place, thinking Sh*t sh*t it's invisible!!! ARRGH!
2: The first time you meet the CyberDemon. You start in this little room in the middle of the level, and you hear this roaring and stomping of an enemy you haven't met before... it was hard to go out and face him.
Ahh. Memories.
Too bad about the political infighting at ID though. You have to wonder what it's going to be like working there for John, Adrian, and Kevin, now that they've had such a nasty, public disagreement.
I honestly wonder if the company will stick together long enough to finish the game. It would not surprise me if the bad feelings escalate - after all, I bet Adrian and Kevin didn't expect John to post all the details of Paul Steed's firing in his plan.
Oh well. I suppose John, Graeme, Paul, and the rest could just leave and form a new company.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
Well, I can personally testify that PS was an asshole, in any circumstance I had to correspond with him he ended up being rude. No idea if he was always that way or the job stress did it, but yes, he was very rude.
But an idiot? Nah, that must have been some other guy. I'm not gonna testify that PS was some incredible genius who left everyone except Carmack in the dust or anything, but he was plenty bright, enough to make good leaps of intuition... he wasn't the type who had to show his work to be able to get from A to B, and being hacker-ish myself, that's the kind of intelligence I respect.
I wouldn't want him to marry my sister, but I don't think he's at all stupid.
I haven't seen any Quake source, actual engine stuff, but I agree with your opinion of the .qc files and the q2 source, both seem like they should have been planned better from the start and then that the writing of the actual code changes from genius to barely capable from one routine to the next...
My guess is that JC wrote some of the more complex routines, especially where things have to use engine features (traces and such) in complex ways, then left everything else to the other programmers. No need to waste the engine coder on writing movement code for some stupid monster.
Exactly. I don't think coders are more important than artists or designers, or vice versa, without any group the game flops (if it ever gets made). But JC is world class talent and not only that, he's one of the best inovators out there. He's the guy who wrote the book, in many ways. Sure Adrian and Kevin are usefull, and so is the rest of id, but I'd say that of any one person, Carmack is the most talented. And the one most likely to still be the most talented in five or ten years. He hasn't gone the way of the dodo, insisiting we don't need 3d cards just because he's great at ASM optimization or anything, he's instead updated his skill set until he's not only a great coder in the new area but also an expert in the hardware accelerators.
Rarely can someone make the shift in focus so smoothly and he's done a wonderful job of it. He's also the identity of the company. Even after the egos of Romero, Hook, and Steed, he's what people identify with id, and with successful game developers, quiet unassuming guys who pull successes out of the hat, one after another. If he leaves, he might as well take the name, 'cause he *is* id.
Actually, Kevin and Adrian aren't management, they're part owners (thirds, with JC). Management is under them. id's CEO was a later hire when they realized a bunch of geeks should do geek stuff, not push paper. id's management could counsel on a certain decision, but being as how it's the owners who were disagreeing, management wouldn't have a say in it.
This was owner vs owners, not management / employees. Some employees did get caught up in it, but it was a higher level fight.
About a year ago, it looked more and more like id is just going to become a technology company.
Then Q3A came out, and that changed. Q3A was an extremely polished game; one of the most polished I have ever played. The whole thing had a wonderful feel and looked and played consistently. There was a single goal, one driving vision behind the game: provide the best serious, hard-core deathmatch possible. I think it delivered spectacularly.
I look forward to the next Doom. The atmosphere in the original (Doom I episode I in particular) was just EERIE. Updated graphics and a new engine will be amazing.
Given the choice between Q3A and UT, I'll take UT. It's even more polished than Q3A, IMHO.
I find it hard to play UT in a serious setting. The weapons just have have the same feel as Q3A's; by that I mean, they seem much more like a collection of toys that you use to just blast away the player. But Q3A just seems so much more serious and down-to-the-core of deathmatching, you know?
UT's Team Play is arguably better, but only because it includes more gameplay styles out-of-the-box. Q3:Team Arena should fix that. But I still enjoy CTF in Q3A more; the sniper rifle in UT is just painful. Too, too many games turn into boring snipe fests. I find Q3A tends to be a lot more fast-paced, without sacrificing the teamplay aspects.
But still, even after all these years, my all-time favorite deathmatch is Doom II. The addition of the double barrel shotgun was enough to add some speed and flavor to the game without breaking the balance (I think it actually improved upon the balance, as short range kills were now feasible against a skilled BFG user.) The speed was just insane; play Doom II DeathMatch for hours on end and you'll feel like you are high on some illegal substance. I haven't had that same adrenaline rush since...newer games are just too slow.
I hope id brings back the frantic pace in the new Doom.
Wolfenstein 2001 IS being worked on; it's called Return to Castle Wolfenstein, being developed by Gray Matter Interactive Studios, which is made up of the former employees of Xatrix (makers of Kingpin.)
Paul may be "Berating" the internet, but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't internet a place for public opinions? Isn't his opnion part of pubblic opinion?
Steed should have gone to the "Meta-internet" in order to post his opinion and criticisms of the Internet.
Yet another example of his enormous arrogance.
S.
http://www.stepto.com
So let's see:
He describes how a developer got canned
for political reasons and then in the same post
says that id is looking to hire.
Hmmm.....
I always thought John had *control* of id, now it's obvious that he does not. If two rogue employees hold more than 50% of the company, they can basically clean house if they want to ... including John Carmack.
I'm trying to figure out how someone as extremely intelligent as John let a company that he built from the ground up get into the hands of two obviously spiteful people.
What's next, Carmack is fired because he wants to use reflective light sources that Kevin and Adrian are totally against?
This could spell the beginning of the end for id I'm afraid.
As far as DooM III goes, I'm all for it *if* they do co-op play the way it was in DooM II. Deathmatch is simply old and boring now and co-op is where it's at, at least for me and my friends when we do LAN parties. For instance, last time we had a LAN party we spent 6 hours playing Rainbow Six co-op and about 20 minutes playing Quake III deathmatch. And even that was too long.
Begin rant;
I'm usually not this harsh, but this time I think I can make an exception.
I hated Doom. The FPS genre wasn't really worth playing until somewhere about the release of Duke3d.
Doom was much like all of ID's games. Too dark, and completely without any sort of personality.
Duke3d was a brilliant game, because it was fun to play. Your character had a personality.
At the time of Dooms original release I was still using my Amiga, and for the life of me I really couldn't see what all the fuss was about. You walked around with a gun in this poorly lit environment, unable to jump, taking hits from chunky looking baddies using a character with all the charisma of Sly Stallone.
Coming from a platform where fluid movement, and fun to control characters were the norm, I found doom one of the most boring experiences ever.
Doom II was no better. Then there was Quake, a game that had less different textures than I have fingers to count them on. That's if you could see them at all, it was so dark.
QuakeII, however, even though it looked a bit samey throughout was a good engine, and not a bad game.
Then came QuakeIII. A brilliant engine which was sadly lacking the game.
I can only hope that Duke Forever materialises to remind everyone what a truly fun game is like. But, in the same way Billy Corgan said it was hard to compete with the Britney Spears' of the world, it's really hard to compete with the Doom rehashes of the world!
End rant.
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
For some reason I can't access the .plan to read the details. Could someone please post it? That said, the trend in the industry seems to be targeting net play. Since across the board high bandwidth net access is years away, picking up an old game, updating the graphics and scenes, and adapting it to low/56k net play probably isn't a bad idea. Especially in cases like Doom where the sheer number of existant levels is large.
Net play is fine, but what attracts me to a game is a well developed plot. Most of these net play versions seem to focus on dweebs at home fragging their buddies across the net. Give me a world where I get to shoot the baddies, discover levels and fight to survive. An a believable reason for doing so.
Without knowing much about the inner workings of game programs, I wonder how hard it would be to use some sort of interpolator like they use in scanneres and digital cameras to "upgrade" levels between different game versions by adding approximate detail geometry?
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I happen to think that majority stock holders should be able to decide what a company does and doesn't do. id is no exception, no matter how cool a new DOOM sounds like -- after all, we can't be sure what the other development alternatives are.
Marko Karppinen
Bottom line, who doesn't believe that if John Carmack left ID tomorrow he would be able to continue working on what he wants
Well...considering he's just stated that what he wants to be working on is Doom III, me; Doom is of course id's intellectual property. On the other hand, from a technical standpoint--which is what JC does anyways--your point still stands. Besides, assuming his leaving was mutual and relatively amicable, Kevin and Adrian might let John's new company use the Doom name anyways (like they're letting Xatrix make a new Wolfenstein).
I'm glad to hear somebody else feels this way! I really am tired of the "heavy-metal-bang-your-head-until-your-ears-bleed
www.eFax.com are spammers
"Without the only man who keeps this company alive, Id goes under."
..
John Carmack is good. John Carmack is not god.
To work at iD software, you have to be the "best of the best" -- and be proven at what you do. Not just any joe-schmoe walks off the street and gets in because "the company can rely on the one guy who does all the work"
John does engine work with 2 other programmers. There are also 3 level mappers and 3 character animators. This is a balanced company, even if one of the guys happens to be so skilled at one thing he does that he is revered as a god.
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Hmmm! During DOOM days, I made a few DOOM maps, and mods. hehe.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I play a lot of Counterstrike (the most popular mod for Halflife online), and while it does slow you down when you are carrying a lot of stuff, its based on what weapon you have in your hand, not what you are carrying, so switching to the knife means you can run faster with a heavy weapon and lots of ammo. Kinda lame in the reality sense.
I do see any reason why they could not add a "fatigue meter" which reflects how much exertion you are putting out, slows down your reactions when high, and cycles down when you rest. I think this would add a bit of realism to games without taking away the fun factor of being able to haul around heavy weapons and loads of ammo. It would also equalize things for the poor schmuck who only has a pistol when you have an AK47. If you just ran a long ways and your aim and speed were affected while he has been at rest the entire time, then he might be able to pop you when you meet.
While not realistic overall, I think CS is probably better than most games out there for the balancing realism vs gameplay. Except for the stupid leaping maneuver to avoid being shot which I think they should eliminate.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Looking Glass Studios did this with the Theif series and look what happened to them. :(
-------- This space intentionally left blank --------
BTW, who are you?
When I first read this article on some other site, I somehow understood it as news that they were going to rerelease the original version, but with updated tech. That would have been awesome! Oh, well. A geek's gotta dream....
Now, if only someone would get started on Wolfenstein 2001, we'd have it made!
Got Rhinos?
Gamespot did a feature on the top ten games which should be remade. Doom finished third for atmosphere. A link is here.
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
It sounds like unfair dismissal to me. I don't know about US law, but the UK you can sue if an employer does this. I know, because it's happened to me, and I did, and I won.
Any questions?
Thad
Thad
Perhaps JC is throwing down his own gauntlet.....fire me if you dare! As a part owner of ID he is not invulnerable, but as the guru of ID he is invaluable to them. His statement that the firing was against him simply shows that he is using this forum to spit on his employers for their stupidity, maybe to get them to grovel back to Steed, maybe just to show them that he regards many things as more important than ID software and that one of them is loyalty to the people who have brought the success.
Bottom line, who doesn't believe that if John Carmack left ID tomorrow he would be able to continue working on what he wants, the only question is if he stays with ID can he work with who he wants? It is a power struggle between the developers whose products bring the sales and the owners who reap the rewards with Carmack saying that he ain't going to take no fscking tihs.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
UT and QA:3 are good games in my opinon - if you really like shooting your friends over and over for hours on end :-) I do - we host lan parties at my house from time to time, and it's a blast!
But the basic game? Doom / Doom 2 are better games. I don't know how many hours of gameplay I've put into those two, but, it probably amounts to much more than I put into QI, QII, Q3:A, Unreal, and UT together for each of them. Doom was truely adictive!
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
Ohh, they can make a new DOOM all they want, it just won't be the same as the original! Hey, I mean, look at what they just WON'T be able to re-create:
- No more hassle loading half-working IPX packet drivers in DOS. I really enjoyed spending hours trying to get extremely bad coded TSRs to work for Multiplayer DOOM!
- No more sluggish, horrible mouse control where you had to mess with the mouse driver's sensitivity to make it any usable, so that it would give you an unfair edge in the game.
- No more "visual" weapons, like the BFG. (Ha, my shot hit the wall, but then, who cares, I was looking at you, so now you're getting torn into little pieces anyway!)
- No more "Hey! That's unfair, my keyboard buffer was full, it just kept beeping while I stood there silly! You're taking unfair advantage, YOU SUCK!!"
- And finally, no "global sound" allowing you to know exactly where the others are, just by hearing the sound of a swith pulled on the other side of the map.
So you see? I just won't be it. I don't care if they call it DOOM, it won't be MY DOOM. How sad. (Wet eyes, *SNIFF*)
Religion is the best example of mass psychosis
Tribes, for example. Team-based, mostly outdoors (the maps seem to be at least a kilometer across), and reasonably tactical (winning has nothing to do with how many times you kill or get killed, even though you'll do lots of both).
As far as upcoming games go, there's always Halo, although there'll probably be lots of shooting in that one too, so maybe it's not such a great example.
. . . but then there's the various massively-multiplayer games, which I personally haven't played (paying $50 for a game, and then another $10/month for the privilege of continuing to play strikes me as somewhat offensive, even if I do understand the financial argument behind it). I'm led to believe that it's possible to have a grand old time just wandering around and meeting people, but I could be wrong on that.
Of course, if we set aside the entire genre of "shooters" then there's all sorts of bizarro gaming available -- 3D Trophy Bass Fishing, anyone? Lots of racing/sports games, and plenty of puzzlers too.
However, you do make a good point -- much of the innovation in the shooter market is simply upping the graphics requirements. But don't forget, there are other genres available . . .
Well, I'm not sure if I really have a point here, except to say that there's lots of variety, even in the shooter market.
I have no
Read what he writes will you, its a REMAKE of Doom.
--
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Maybe running through tunnels on search and destroy missions is your bag, but it certainly is not mine. When will id come up with (ahem) A NEW IDEA?
--
--
fat lenny's gonna lick your brain today.
I've always thought that the stupid little story lines that go with these games should end with something like "You finish what is possibly the last bottle of Scotch in the universe, make sure your electric wheelchair is fully charged, and start into the tunnel."
Seriously, if a level is named "chemical plant" or "spacecraft hanger" it should look like one, and not just another mass of anonymous tunnels.
Nobody cares about the "story line", anyway.
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
When Quake came along, it changed everything. No previous FPS ever seemed worthy of my prolonged attention, but Quake got its hooks in me. The true-3D engine made point-and-click fragging a reality. I became a deathmatch addict, and lost whole nights of sleep launching rockets and nails at complete strangers.
I may get flamed for this, since we all hate what a jerk Lucas has been lately, but I gotta point out that the best FPS story-lines I've seen are the ones from LucasArts.
Outlaws is a 2.5D shooter, but the gameplay makes you feel like you really are John Wayne or Clint Eastwood, walking through the center of town with your spencer rifle and six-shooter. The "reload" requirement adds a lot to getting the pacing of the action just right. Install the 3D patch, and everything looks just like the animated cut scenes. :)
Jedi Knight had pathetic multiplay, but the solo game was far better than anything ID has ever come up with.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
In this case, iD is in Texas. Though it may be a Delaware corporation, I'll bet dollars to donuts that its employment contracts have a 'Choice of Law' clause that specifies Texas Law to be used to settle disputes.
Texas is an "At Will" employment law state. That means either party can terminate an employment contract "at will." That means you do not have to give reasons, beyond some minimum guarantees that the decision was not unconstitutionally discriminatory, i.e., based on race, gender, etc.
Some states do have "Right To Work" employment laws, but I believe they're in the minority.
So in "At Will" states, even if you do an excellent job, that "You're fired!" that comes out of the blue is perfectly legal.
Hack The Law. (.com coming soon I hope)
The official home page for gldoom is www.frag.com/doom
Don't forget all you've seen so far is Carmack's side of the story. While it may be accurate he has by his own admission taken a 'side' on the issue which is against the other owners so it stands to reason that they are being portrayed in a not-so-good light. As far as what the development staff want to do - how do we know what they want to do? It could have been just Carmack and Steed that were that adamant about working on DOOM for all we know (although granted it was likely more than just those two). It'll be interesting to see how this shakes down - I wouldn't want to be a new hire coming into id right now. Look at all the people who have left recently, Hook, Cash, James, etc. - it must be one helluva work environment! Now the owners are fighting and pitching ultimatums - could be the beginning of the end for idsoftware...
The also need to have MANY creatures swaming you. Everyone remembers the rooms with 20-30 soldiers in them all swarming you, only to be blown to bits by a BFG. The most creatures the Quake series had on screen was maybe 5 creatures. We got the horsepower here folks, lets use it. It was a hallmark of the Doom series. TONS AND TONS of creatures on the screen at once. A huge gorefest with the plasma gun and BFG. It's what made the game FUN.
Outdoor areas. We need HUGE ones, throw in fog if you gotta, but the levels need to be HUGE. Giant outdoor areas with huge scifi buildings in the middle.None of this Quake stuff where a level LOOKED big, then you got filtered into a building via a tunnel to hide the flaws of the engine. We need Jedi Knight type areas with Quake Technology.
We need all the weapons back, and maybe 5-10 more.
I hate to say it, but get Romero back in the gang. After Diakatana the guy has proven he can't work outside of id software. I really think he had an awesome role with the Doom series. I know he was around for Quake .. And that was ALMOST cool.. But they were too limited to technology back then.. Maybe they dont need him, im not sure..
As for firing Steed, dunno what to say. It just sounds like a lame thing to do. I sure wouldnt want a job there after reading that mess. Screw that!
Personally, if I were Carmack, i'd leave the company and go work for Verant on Everquest 2 or something..
I eat the flesh off the living, and I vote!
Oh...my...God! What a dork! Do you have to roll 20-sided dice on the pine needles to figure out if you hit the goblins? You probably lose a lot of dice this way, what with it being too dark to tell if your friends are really goblins or not. I thought Civil War reenactments were stupid. And isn't "magic" spelled "magick"? Do you guys pour hot grits down each other's pants when you want to "raise" each other?
First, Graeme Devine is on the id team. He was the developer of The 7th Guest and The 11th Hour - full motion video, puzzle-oriented games. Devine has said he was hired specifically to design and develop the next game. Hence, don't assume at all that the next Doom (not necessarily Doom III) will be an FPS in the purest sense. I suspect it may have more aspects of an adventure game - maybe even more than Half-Life.
Second, and this is the Bad Mojo ... Steed may be gone, but Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud remain. They are essentially being told they are going to work on a game they don't believe in. What kind of workplace scenario is that? Carmack, Carmack and Cloud all work together in the same big room, or at least they did when I last visited. I suspect that's a pretty tense workspace.
It will get worse before it gets better.
--
C'mon, baby, kiss The King.
Site seems to be slashdotted, so here's the copy:
.plan update.
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated
explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM
as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill
to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea
that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the
mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan,
the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what
we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and
more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was
important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company):
We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed,
new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a
new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand
new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to
say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We
will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving
misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for
dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be
one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you
have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider
yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
The site is
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Ok, go read the .plan update! Then come back and finish reading. Carmack explains things to a certain degree in the .plan file.
Basically, so far, is seems Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (no relation) have had a fit over J. Carmack and gang wanting to work on a Doom remake. No matter what game id cranks out, it's going to sell at least marginally well. I can see no justification for two guys to fire Paul Steed just to get back at Carmack for doing what he and the development staff WANT to work on.
It reeks of arrogance so far and I really hope Steed gets back on the project. While he's known to be an asshole, I think he's the right guy to work on Doom 2000 models and animations. And in the end, I trust J. Carmack over Adrian and Kevin when it comes to what is a good game and who is good for the job.
And many people have been giving Carmack shit for exposing this publically. Well, good. I like to know why Steed is gone and what kind of position Carmack is in. I hope I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but Carmack seems to be the kind of guy who just wants to be left alone to do his own thing and not deal with politcal business crap.
Until Kevin and Adrian have some kind of rational other than, "we don't want to do D2K", shame on them!
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
Dunno why, but I still think Doom is spookier and more enthralling than Quake and its sequels. Somehow, there's a greater feeling of fear when going round the corner knowing there could be a whole horde of bad guys, instead of just one or two, and I think the lower quality music, which reminds me of John Carpenter movies for some reason, paradoxically added to the aura the game just radiates.
Problem I can see is, how would Doom 3 build on the earlier Doom games ? I suspect better resolution bad guys may paradoxically lower the creepiness factor.
For fun and sillyness, I think cooperative multiplayer Nightmare Doom, with monsters, has a lot to recommend it. Seems to get to the point where all the monsters are congregating round the resurrection points and you can't get anywhere....
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I still remember back when BBS's were the thing and DOOM had just come out. My friend Karl who was working doing some really high-power computer stuff (i think he was working on something for 3d studio) that required him to have a 486dx-50, 40 meg of ram, and a 21 inch monitor. He used to have these parties called "geekfests" where all the local BBS geeks would get to gether and hang out.
In any case, the one where i first experienced DOOM in it's fullness was there, in a darkened room, with the 21" in front of me, and his sound card hooked up to the stereo. That feeling of your heart racing as you creep down a darkened passageway and have one of those ugly pink buggers with the lumpy heads come loking up on you is just unbeatable. Only a couple games ever gave me that feeling. It would be the following: Alien Breed (on the Amiga. Basicly a gauntlet knock off, but with Alien dudes, and _awesome_ sound), DOOM, and Alone In The Dark, which i wish somebody would remake for modern 3D technology. AITD was basicly like that old nintendo game "shadowgate" but realtime 3rd person 3d. Cool =:-)
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
Well, yet again we will probably see another round of 3D-technology pushing to enhance "realism" in a game where you can run full speed carrying hundreds of pounds of weapons and never get tired.
Death, where is thy sting?
- Possibility number 1: Adrian and Kevin undermine the entire development of Doom III to prove their point. If they were willing to fire an employee IN RETALIATION, they have the guts to kill a product simply out of spite. Expected result: Id goes under.
- Possibility number 2: Company relations go down the shitter faster than they did at Ion Storm. John Carmack says "fuck this" and leaves. Without the only man who keeps this company alive, Id goes under.
- Possibility number 3: John Carmack and, say, Activision try to buy back A & K's shares. They won't sell, and the company goes under.
When company owners disagree violently on the direction their business is taking, there are two possible outcomes: someone leaves, or the place fights until it's out of money.Goodbye ID. Thanks for all the fish.
"The advance of technology is a problem for us"
-------------------------
"After Careful Consideration, Bush Recommends Oil Drilling" - The Onion
What'd they threaten John with? The BFG-9000?
If Steed was in fact fired because of Carmack and crew were rebelling, and if he really wanted to avoid the political atmosphere of the office, he should leave id. I wouldn't want to work in a place that would fire someone else to get back at me, instead that would say I'm good enough to leave and do some good work somewhere else. (I'd have to watch the ego, though...)
Seriously, take the loyal talent and start somewhere else. This would be the perfect time to leave before getting into the middle of the next project. Sure, it wouldn't be doom, but you know it would be something nifty and fun, right?
It just seems wrong that the people who made id aren't the people who get a say in what it does. There's a whole group of talented people possibly going to go to waste here... who's next to be fired? Who would want to work there based on this kind of display? Isn't it hard to be creative when you're watching your back or fighting just to get your job done?
I just can't imagine sitting at a desk working on Doom 3 and accepting that I got my wish and it only cost one guy his job. That's bad karma, man.
Carmack, you've got the talent to make it work. Do the right thing. A lot of people are looking up to you...
I just have to say this rox my sox off.
;)
I always thought Doom had a much more believable environment, atmosphere...even though it didn't have neat-o polygon graphics. Doom (hey, and even Wolf3d) kept me on the edge of my seat a lot more than Quake or Quake 2 did. I hope id is returning to spending a lot of time creating a rich atmosphere instead of just throwing more graphics on the screen at a faster rate (which I agree is itself a great accomplishment that has taken a tremendous amount of skill and effort).
I can't wait to get back to that good ole double barrel shotgun
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I've always said that Doom and Doom II were better than the newer games, for the simple reason that they were just so much more immersive. I can only hope that Doom III lives up to their high standards of atmosphere and mood.
:) I Still think they're pretty damn scary for an image on a screen.. they just have this aura of "ultimate badass" that makes you run at full speed away..
Call it nostalgia, whatever, but there was some magic in firing up Doom shareware for the first time on my old 486-66 w/ 4MB RAM, and just playing for hours, completely immersed in the game. When I got Doom II, I couldn't put it down for weeks, it just drew me into it.. no other game before or since, except Diablo, has ever had that effect on me.
I used to have nightmares about cyberdemons
Last August, a friend of mine and I decided, on a whim, to relive past glories and play some Doom II deathmatches again.. well, we did that, and it was still as fun as it ever had been (fancy 3d graphics be damned! gameplay is still king *grin*).. so fun, in fact, that we then played through all 33 levels cooperatively.. I can't remember the last time I had so much pure enjoyment from any game. It was bliss.
-subtraho
Well, I'm not surprised that he (and others there) would like to make another DOOM. DOOM was a very successful product and an incredible game. Capturing its spirit will be a challenge since a lot of DOOM's factors were in its ability to give you such an impending sense of danger and power:
But there are some issues--when DOOM came out, people were new to the first person shooter genre and one of the reasons DOOM was such a fun game was as you learned how to play you started being able to kill monsters better. These days I (and most experienced players) can run rings around a Cyberdemon and toy with him. DOOM taught me how to strafe, dammit.
It's a shame to see Paul let go. He was certainly one who didn't have any problem expressing his opinions. But he could sure pound out some amazing 3D models. His work in Quake2 and Quake3 was outstanding--it's sad to see his art won't be in the new DOOM.
A part of me is upset with my own disassocation with id. I would have loved working on DOOM CTF levels.
In any case, I can't wait to see what id can come up with in a new DOOM. I want to be scared all over again.
/// Zoid.
Firstly, for Paul Steed to have been hired by id no doubt implies that he was a very talented employee.
.plan is the voice of one employee in a company. A lot of posts seem to revere his words as the gospel truth. I'm sure management has their side of the story. I greatly respect JC's opinion when it comes to the tech side of things and performing sacriligious surgery on ferrari engines but for internal company politics his voice should be weighed as heavily as any other id employee.
Remember that JC's
My suspicion is that Steed's firing must have been a result of more than just this one incident. It may have been the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. I don't think management would draw sticks or do the poisoned donut routine to determine who-gets-the-shaft-so-we-can-get-back-at-cormack. There must have been some reasoning behind their move.
Making a soap opera of id's internal politics may be entertaining for us, but personally I don't think it is any of our business. How many companies would allow employees to publically release information about internal politics like JC did?
It's a shame when any skilled employee has to leave a company because of social reasons and not because of lack of proficiency. I hope Steed's career goes well (I'm sure it will), and that life at id will continue normally (not likely).
My sympathies to Steed and id.
remember... it's just a game.
- j
Zoid's a sweetie, but he's understating things just a tad.
I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but id's politics have always been incredibly severe. It's sort of a treehouse/boy's club atmosphere, very charged with adrenaline, egos, and testosterone. I loved it and contributed to it. It's an infectious behavior. Romero and Kevin, in particular, would use their 18 Charismas to make the politics fun. Don't ask me how that's possible. You'd have to be there. It's very colourful. You forgive the atmosphere pretty quickly when they start plopping multiple 5- and 6-figure bonuses in your lap.
But it's actually nice to see John put that in his plan file. It's more truthful advertising if the prospective employees know what's going on behind the curtain. These same kind of politics affect your bonuses, your workload, and frankly your general health if you're prone to stress-related problems like ulcers, skin problems, or gum disease. You guys would be pretty shocked to hear the real stories of how several of id's talented people left the company, but it's never a binary, "He humped a farm animal on company time."
This is definitely not the sign of an id implosion. Kevin and Adrian won't be pleased about John's plan file, but they're fundamentally level-headed businessmen and will probably get over it. John won't stop coding. Everything he does is fun to work with, and if they fire John, the daily miracles that time the id engine will simply move elsewhere.
I do ABSOLUTELY recommend if you're a talented artist to apply for the position. It's an adventure unlike anything you'll embark. You'll make grievous wads of cash. You'll gape at the bizarre effects of instant media focus. You'll get to watch and learn from some of the industry's finest talent. You'll fear for your mortal soul if you get a ride from John to work. You'll have access to almost any software tool or piece of hardware you want to get your hands on.
It's a growth experience.
John:
Please, for the love of god, don't make this one brown.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
"Note to Kevin and Adrian: Firing developers out of spite ain't cool. "
Assuming that one person's comments sum up the objective truth of a matter also ain't cool. 9)
-Ed
Doom III? Will it be as good as Bill and Ted's II, Back to the Future III and Rocky XXXIV?
I realize that everyone reading this story gets a hardon when you say the word "Doom" and so I can kiss karma goodbye, but come on! Wolfenstein was revolutionary. Doom was "advanced". Everything since then is "copycat". Yes, even the stuff from id.
Will we ever get beyond 1st person shooters? Don't give me crap about "Quake is revolutionary, some of the monsters are green" either. I want a NEW GAME. I don't want to play the SAME GAME except for the requirement of a NEW VIDEO CARD.
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
In every company I've been in, if the fighting's got so bad that you let it leak out to potential customers, the company is finished. Dead. Kaput. Every company has fights, but when senior people are criticising other senior people in public you don't have a team any more. Await implosion.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
I have to say, I played Doom only once, and played it against my (then) 8 yr old sister (I was 20) and she beat me really really bad. I haven't had any desire to play those kinds of games ever since. I still have not lived down that kind of humiliation.
This is great... But will it be the same Doom that we all know and love? Or will it be Quake in a Doom setting?
-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.
Actually, there are already quite a few versions of Doom with some updated technology in them. OpenGL implementations are a good example (though the first GLDoom didn't get finished, unluckly :-( ) There are hacks that add better handling of sectors for more advanced maps, hacks that add the look up / look down, all sorts of stuff.
Depending on what you mean by Doom with 'updated tech', just adding better graphics won't bring it up to par with Quake3 or Unreal Tournament. Doom uses 2D sprites, which only leaves 8 positions that the bad guys can be viewed from (on the up side - that's also the reason why you can have tons and tons of enemies on screen without major slowdowns!) Look up / Down is highly problematic (partialy because of the 2D sprite issue), the maps are "2.5 D" maps - while they have a height setting, areas cannot cross over each other, etc., etc., etc.
Doom is pretty old tech... Damn I love Doom still! Just upgrading the tech isn't quite enough, however, it would require a complete re-write, and everyone would end up bitching about some of the failings of Doom if they didn't. I do hope they do the next Doom correct - a nice scary atmosphere, tons of monsters, etc.
Meanwhile - go look at some of the current modified Doom engines out there:
Doom Legacy offers quite a few extended things from Doom, including 32 player multi-player games
DoomWorld is a good site for tracking down all the other Doom source ports and modifications, plus news of things like Doom for Daikatana (why?), Doom for QA3, etc.
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
I don't think so. Perhaps the reason that there was a huge fight inside ID about this (and we've only heard one side of it, remember) is that the company's owners know what the phrase "One Trick Pony" means.
I remember playing Doom for the first time as vividly as anyone. But what all the Doom-nostalgics out there don't seem to realise is that it is impossible for you to re-live the experience you had when when you first played Doom. You can't pretend you've never played a game like it before. You can't roll the clock back. Read Proust and see for yourself. That's what being nostalgic means, and why nostalgia is related to melancholy. You're want to relive a past experience but you can't.
The only thing that's going to produce a similar experience --- that "Oh my God I'm completely absorbed by this amazing new thing" feeling --- is a wholly new kind of game, and sadly Doom III ain't going to be it, by definition. By embarking on this project, Id are starting to look like the Microsoft of gaming: Doom, Doom 95, Doom 2000... and I bet that's why Kevin and Adrian made such a fuss over the project.
In the gaming industry, the developers are generally representative of the consumer base. The excitement that the development team brought to a project could certainly be an indicator of how well the product would sell and it is foolish for management to ignore it.
.plan file. Given the situation surrounding the firing of Steed, a new employee is likely to be confronted with a somewhat hostile work environment when he arrives.
That being said, I cannot understand why anybody would respond to the request for applications that was posted in that
The firing of Steed casts a cloud around the eventual release of Doom III and the need to train another employee at this time could delay or reduce the quality of the product. id's behavior in this case is very unprofessional and management clearly did not consider the best interests of the company or the consumers.
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.