Slashdot Mirror
Software Packaging And The Environment?
jayhawk88 asks: "One of my users brought me Microsoft Street and Trips 2001 to install on their laptop yesterday. The box for Street and Trips is fairly large: a little taller than a regular software box, and about 1.5 times wider. The contents, however, are as follows: a standard size jewel case, and a 3-page folded leaflet, that is about half the size or a regular sheet of paper. I'm no environmentalist, but holding the entire contents of this over-sized box in the palm of my hand almost makes me sick. Clearly, this is simply Microsoft spending a pile of cash on packaging to be the biggest and shiniest title on the shelf at CompUSA, but it did get me thinking. Has there ever been a push to 'slim down' software packaging, similar to what happened with CD's in the early 90s? If not, should there be?"
Think about bleem!. When it was first released, it wasn't quite the commercial product it is now. But, when it first got to computer stores, it entered the 8.5x11-ish packaging. When it began to sell, the push came to have it more easy to recognize. Then came the humongous boxes. While not particularly environmentally sound, it served the purpose it was designed for.
Keep in mind, however, that we're slowly moving away from shelf-boxes for software into online purchasing - I bought and downloaded Ray Kurzweil's Cybernetic Poet (shameless plug) with no paper, or anything else tangible, for that matter, being exchanged. Slimming down the package is secondary now to eliminating it entirely.
"I'm not even supposed to BE here today!"
Consumer Reports has a "over packaged hall of fame" thing (can't remember what they call it) they run every month. Three months ago it was 6 cloth napkins from a dept store: Each napkin came in it's own box that was about the size of a desktop computer. It was a pretty funny picture--the napkins are in a tiny pile in the foreground and boxes are mounded up all over the room.
Why not submit Streets Plus (or something else even worse) to CR? It won't stem the tide but it might get people thinking.
--
Compaq dropping MAILWorks?
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Should there be such a push? Sure. Will there be? I doubt it. Consumers equate the odd or large packaging as containing something special are therefore better. If a seller can provide an interesting box it will increase sales, and can offset the added cost.
In a sea of many choices it's a way to make your product stand out. Theoretically, the better products should be more likely to be able to afford such packaging, but in truth, it can only be used as a very minor factor in determining quality.
Jerrith
ars@iag.net
I am quite confident that more and more firms will make there software available via download. No packaging whatsoever.
This of course leads to the problem of getting all of your documentation only viewable on screen, but this will be acceptable because 99.4% of all software documentation is not even suitable to line a birdcage with to begin with.
all persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. - Kurt Vonnegut
As long as a big shiny box with a single CD rattling around inside sells better than a single CD, There will be no reason for M$ and others to change.. Perhaps as more people buy software online, and vendors change their licenses (You are *NOT ALLOWED* to own an install CD of this product) This will change- But then again maybe not- I've seen a lot of "Internet in a box" packages at the shops- Big shiny boxes with a CD rattling around inside.
air and light and time and space
The worst offender of useless packaging needs to go to the fast food places. They waste far too much on packaging.
The next site to slashdot will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and start slashdotting it early!
The bigger the box, the less likely someone is going to make it out the door with it stuffed under their shirt..
.sig: Now legally binding!
They call it the "Golden Cocoon Award" (maybe "Golden Cocoon Award of Overpacking" or something like that) and they sometimes show it as part of a feature that they always (at least, last I checked) run on the very last page of the magazine about strange marketting techniques or just plain stupid ploys. There isn't necessarily a Golden Cocoon handed out every issues, they just give them out as they run across deserving products.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Have you ever noticed how just about every box on a store shelf is of a similar size and shape? Not just software, but cans of peas, soup, cereal, crackers, cookies, etc. If you make your package stand out too much, it won't fit properly and the stores will get mad at the manufacturers.
The other problem for software manufacturers is that if you make your packaging too small it won't be noticed as easily (that's the theory anyway). Marketers know that having a shiny box is very important in impulse decisions, same as with books, and if you make it small people won't see it next to el crapo title even if you have the hotest game of the year.
On another note, one of the more sensible packages I've seen lately is for Homeworld. It actually had a good manual in it, just under half an inch thick. Those big boxes started out containing those useful manuals of olde, but no longer...
--
Eric is chisled like a Greek Godess
marotti.com
Since nobody could be bothered to give you any dead tree-ware documentation anymore, you'd think they could slim down the boxes. All that space used to be taken up by manuals, but now it's empty. I think if they still want a big shiny surface to catch the eye, they could at least make it a big card with the jewel case and leaflet shrik wrapped on, sorta like how matchbox cars used to be packaged...
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
One solution is to put the nice, glitzy, eye catching - but empty - boxes on the shelves, with a stack of CDs below/beside it. The consumer can oh and ah over the packaging, then just toss the CD into their cart. Nah - too reasonable.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
i don't know about anyone else, but i LOVE those really large boxes taking up space on my shelf at home or in at the office. who needs those pesky trees anyway?
but on a more serious note, our economy seems to be based almost as much on packaging (interpret the term "packaging" loosely) as it is based on the actual products (or lack there of)...i'm not a hardcore environmentalist, but how can we not see something wrong here?
True, there was widespread bitching and moaning when Painter came in a can.
But software boxes are not the same size, height or width. So it is possible to make the boxes smaller or remove it all together. I had a copy of Lotus 123 that was just a few books and a diskette, shrink wrapped.
Given the reduced importance of retailers and store shelves, it is possible to do away with packaging. It seems wasteful to have to ship a box when the CD can fit in an envelope.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
There is a limited shelf space. Shelf space in brick and mortar stores costs quite a significant amount of money. I'm hoping a game designer will reply to this thread and say just how much money it really costs to get shelf space. Games that don't pay for shelf space get bargain bin space, instead. This seriously compromises your ability to sell your title at a decent price. Microsoft is effectively pushing smaller boxes off the end of the shelf. It's things like this that force you to have a publisher if you are to sell your software in a brick and mortar store. (Of course, that's where microsoft steps in and buys Bungie's developer's souls...)
Well, let's remember that the box is mostly air. It doesn't take that much more material to make a 2-inch-thick box over a 1 inch box (someone want to run a quick calculation? I guess about 5% more material).
In any case, compared to the volume of newspapers, magazines, and junk mail, I think computer boxes probably are about 0.001% of the total paper mass, much less total garbage mass.
If you want to focus on garbage generation, this is not the place. I could even argue that any paper really isn't the place, since that is pretty easy to recycle.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I'm sure Microsoft is also paying slotting fees on the shelves of retail stores.
Slotting fees are de riguer at the grocery store, P&G, Coke, Pepsi, and others "rent" the space on the store shelves. If you don't, or can't pay, your wares aren't display.
Elementary marketing. Smart man, that Bill.
Actaully, I think the exact opposite has happened from "slimming down" of computer software boxes. They say don't judge a book by it's cover, but it seems consumers judge software from the box.
;)
;) Face it: a single jewel case wrapped in plastic with online doccumentation and a $49.95 pricetag just doesn't sell well.
Let's look at some of the stupid wastes I've noticed and laughed at.
Wierd shaped boxes: Star Trek games. You know what I'm talking about. The box that looks like a damned communicator. Or worse, the ones that have the doughnut holes in the middle. What's the point of this? I guess to make people pick up the box.
Heavy boxes: Is that hard-covered 300 page manual REALLY a necessity?? Especially since it can be put in postscript format? OK, for RPGs this can be a nice touch, but I got Visual Studio 6.0 for my birthday. The box was about 5 pounds!! So many useless manuals that nobody would ever use! Including a 100-page WELCOME NOTE written on thick paper. I swear this stupid pamphlet accounted for most of the box's weight and it served no usefull purpose. Strange thing is consumers actually seem to take weight into consideration!! I've seen men and women holding competing software in each hand and seeing which one weighed more!! It's a funny site, I'm telling you. They buy softare like they buy watermelon.
Expensive boxes: Quake3 Arena. OK. It looked cool. But why did the box need to be made out of metal! This one was even worse: two guys I worked with at the time BOUGHT Q3A soley to get the metal box. .
Biiiigggg boxes: Ultima 9 started this. Anyone see that box?? It was MASSIVE. 'Nuff said.
I think as more and more people are owning computers and buying software, the less level of knowlege the general consumer has about the product. Just like cereal whose box is only half-full, I think in the future more and more software boxes will be dead space. Or dead weight. Or whatever else is wastefull and sells
Peace,
DranoK
That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die.
Shh! Nobody knows I'm gay!
Overpackaging is just a tiny sliver of the waste this brave new digital world has brought. We were supposed to have "paperless" offices. But instead computers have made printing so easy that nobody thinks twice about printing anything out and we end up with more waste.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
That is the truth, 2600 magazine has trouble getting sold anywhere outside of the monster stores because of it's digest size. None of the old sci-fi digests are in business any more, and that is supposed to be one of the reasons they went out. OTOH CDs used to be packaged in "LP" sized packaging because the distributers thought no one would be willing to stock CDs in smaller bins.
One solution to this is to go to a local computer store and see if they will order you an OEM packed version of the software. The OEM version tends to be a bit cheaper for them to get, which they like, and it also tends come in more environmentally friendly/smaller packages.
This Sig Intentionally left blank
Not very large packaging, and even better, you can get slackware :-)
Eh...
I don't know how much the ESD idea has caught on, but it is intriguing, and if I ever paid for any software I'd use it :)
--------
Oscarfish.com: tropical fish with attitude. Way t
I'm sure that the game makers know that they waste space like this, and if they could, they would reduce it, but no one will take the initiative. If you're the only company putting out games in a box that actually fits the stuff you're selling, you won't take up as much shelf space (though you may have the same number of copies), and it's easier to overlook the package for something that's bloated. Unless all the major software publishers switch at the same time, this won't happen.
At *least* the bulk of the packaging is cardboard which can be recycled in most cases. I generally do that and keep the colored printed part of the package for UPS symbol and whatnot.
(Of course at the same time, it makes me think of interesting software product boxes that have been used; the Marathon series were always a challenge...)
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
And the OEM copy won't install on any hard drive but the one it was first installed on.
Will I retire or break 10K?
It's a generic consumer expectation that expensive stuff come in a big box. The more it costs, the bigger the box should be. Of course there are exceptions the consumer makes for jewelry, PCMCIA cards, digicam memory cards and such. Software is not one of these exceptions.
.tar.gz
Stay up hacking each weekend. Sleep is for the week.
This has been a very common problem in retail stores, where the hardware profit margin is in the single digits, and you have to sell alot of software and peripherals to make it up.
Long ago and far away, I used to work in a now defunct retail chain. I can recall going through a store and finding empty boxes, merchandise gone. The complex fold over of the cardboard etc is thought out to prevent just this. Considering the cost of cardboard, vs 50 - 500 dollar product, the trade off is a pain, but understandable.
heck I can even remember people buying a computer, and then returning it, saying it was broken. We would take it apart, and it would be missing the ram, the harddrive, etc. We could not "prove" that they stolen it, but it was obvious that they had. [We didn't have the resources.] We even went to setting up the machine and and running it first, in the store, just to cut down on the theft. it was insane.
no wonder the chain went under. Some people have no morals whatsoever.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
That's actually not too far from the truth. What about having these companies with online documentation make two boxes, one to keep on the shelves and then a smaller, "green :)" box to package the actual material in? This way, they still get the shelf-space and the advertising that comes with it, they can both save on the packaging and be a little more environmentally friendly.
kwsNI
I wish Consumer Reports would put out a book consisting solely of items from the "Selling It" page. I'd buy it in a minute.
I actually tried to suggest this to them once, but I'll be damned if I can find an email address for them. I looked about 6 months ago--combed through the magazine, searched the online site: nothing.
--
Compaq dropping MAILWorks?
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
I'm no environmentalist, but holding the entire contents of this over-sized box in the palm of my hand almost makes me sick.
/.ers, as well as the pro-Open Source angle, and a pro-environment viewpoint.
/.ers, Libertarians, dogs, Republicans, M$ies, everyone) are a part of the environment. We do not so much depend on it as we are in fact a subset of it. "Dependance", to me, seems to imply a separation between the dependant and depended. i like the image of the subset better. The Earth's biosphere's viability does not require ours, rather the opposite.
Well, i am an environmentalist; just think how this kind of crap makes me feel, eh?
The way i see it, we could draw a neat parallel between the Libertarian bent of many of us
Libertarians want to have their rights un-trodden-upon, Open Sourcers want to have the right to view/mod/whatever the source code of their stuff... I, as an environmentalist, want to have the right to clean air, water, etc...
FWIW, i am unsure as to how anyone could not be an environmentalist. the way i see it, non-environmentalism is like non-spleenism (someone will correct me, i'm sure, if the spleen is not in fact required for the normal functioning of the human body).
We (all of us, environmentalists,
So, if the continued viability of the environment is a prerequisite for our (read: MY) existance, it is only logical that we should, each and every one of us, do what we can to prevent the further degradation of our life-support system.
That, and i think if i had previewed this sucker, i probably would have used less < b >'s
Don't ask. Go see.
Make the product bigger! Make a push for people to suppy manuals with software, like they used to in the old days! :-)
...
You *really* do not want that. You want downloadable manuals instead --- the problem is that a manual typically has to go to print 4-6 weeks (in the best case) before the CD is burned.
A lot changes in 4-6 weeks of development time, especially in an industry where a 1-year development cycle is average. Unless you can *enforce* a code freeze for that time (and if you can, I want to know how you do it), printed manuals = wrong manuals.
Softcopy is your friend
Buying software online has some other benefits too. For example, a customer in Canada can buy software from the US and download it. This bypass waiting, shipping costs, Canadian sales taxes and import duties. Customs have a little bit of catching up to do. If the US introduces sales taxes for online purchases, some companies are going to make a lot of money by selling to them from overseas. Can you imagine how hard that is to enforce?
I'm not sure if this is an American/capitalist society thing, or if this is pretty much standard everywhere.
Personally, I would prefer that all the software and games I purchase be packaged just like a music CD. Put it in a case that just safely and securely fits the product, put an insert in it, and leave it be. You can put installation instructions and contact information on the insert and put the product instructions on the CD itself. And since most people are online these days, you can make any 'extras' such as world-maps and data grids from games, available for download and printing.
It just seems incredibly silly that we should still see something the size of a jewel-case requiring more packaging than the box my freaking laptop arrived in.
---
icq:2057699
seumas.com
Sid Meier's Antietam! already shipped like this, and I beleive more are on the way. I hope so. They stack up much better in a bookshelf, and allow me to keep the original packaging, which is a nice touch.
--sugarman--
Do you know how much toxic waste it takes to make a computer? And disposing of one is not easy either.
It is a safe bet that your computer is a bigger environmental hazard than all of the packaging for all of the software you are likely to buy for it. A very safe bet.
Regards,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Not true. The last time I was in the local book store, they had three or four different small-form-factor science fiction magazines on display. I have noticed that they aren't displayed in as many magazine racks as they used to be.
The problem with putting software into smaller boxes is obvious: in principle the jewel case would suffice, it has even space for a slim booklet, more than comes with most software. A lot of software IS in tha stores like that, but it's mostly chaep or old titles, for 20-30DM ($10-$15 in US i guess). One reason is that most customers arent used to spend $50+ on a CD or something of similar size. Another reason is also very obvious if you imagine 3-4 jewel case packaged Games between all those big cases: the customers wouldn't find them without asking, and if you put that brandnew game between all those (apparently) 'lame old' jewelcase packaged software many people don't even look at it doesn't work either.
One solution to this might be display cases: they take up the same space on the shelf as 4-5 'bigpackage' softwarecases, catch the customers eye but what you take home is just that slim jewel case (which has the added benefit of not cluttering up your shelf at home), there's even some cool variations about the jewelcase theme, music industry surly will provide examples.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
The comparison with music CD packaging doesn't quite work. Most people have some idea of what they are getting when they buy a music CD. With music, you are typically buying a kind of entertainment that you are already familiar with You've heard a song or two from it before, and that is the main reason you seek out that disc over the many others available in the store.
With software, consumers are buying the idea that this software is going to serve some useful purpose for them. Many people don't know if one particular package is what is right for them or not. Should it be Paint Shop Pro, Photoshop or CorelDraw?
The packaging convinces them that the product will make their computer that much more powerful and productive. That's a tough stunt to pull off in only 5.5 inches square.
Additionally, consumers perceive that the size of the packaging relates to the power and amount of features of the software inside. There is a reason that Quicken Basic comes in a slim box and Quicken Home & Business comes in a thick one. And it's not because they needed the room to stuff in a bigger manual. "It has the bigger box, so there must be *more* in there!" Consumers already get confused about what the difference is between the three versions. The box sizes let them know that they are getting *more* (if only in packaging) for their money.
Even commercial Linux distros do this. Compare the "Business" and "Secure Server" versions to the basic versions.
Do I like that? No.
But I'm not expecting the relationship between consumers and marketers to change enough for software packaging to become more environmentally efficient. Even with the move to electronic distribution. I know enough holdouts who want to hold something in their hands before they'll plunk down money for it.
Bringing quality to Anonymous Coward posts since 1999
Ironically, their website was rather consumer-unfriendly. I tried to join last year but my logon wouldn't work but I wasn't sure if my credit card was being charged. But there was no customer service # and they would only accept emailed customer service requests from a form in the 'members-only' section (requires logon), I was supposed to send my problem via SNAIL MAIL. Eventually, I just gave up and chalked it up as a loss.
- bridgette
I don't have any details but I remember way back when... some group sued [a] computer software manufacturer[s] due to a law which says that you can't make your package larger than the contents just to make it look like you are getting more than you are really getting. The case didn't have any effect though because it was argued that the size of the box was necessary due to the amount of space needed to describe / advertise the product. I wish I could find a URL about it...
(I think that would work pretty well for a container of food or something. Every notice the indentations they put in the bottoms of shampoo / etc bottles, and around the middle sometimes, and then a nice tall plastic end-cap, probably to make it looke like you are getting more than you are?)
almost all of the non-conformist boxes contained crap.
Now, I've heard of software that comes with trinkets or cloth maps, but that's just ridiculous...
Folks here have already mentioned audio CDs, which used to be packaged in huge cardboard boxes, but now are almost always sold in plain jewel boxes. If shoplifting is an issue, the store can lock the CDs in reusable plastic extenders, which are annoying, but (presumably) not wasteful.
Computer software is different. Think of games, in particular, since that's where packaging really comes into its own. Some computer games will always require a large box... any Sid Meier game, for example. Many other games could be sold in jewel boxes, but those games still have to compete with the ones in large boxes. Even the most rational consumer couldn't help but pay more attention to the huge Falcon 8.0 box, with its three volume manual, than to the little Quake IV CD, sitting in a rack with hundreds of other identical jewel boxes.
MSK
And playstation 2 games are coming in DVD containers now, with a little holder for memory cards.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Am I the only one that immediately thinks "cheap software" when I see a small box or just a CD-case standing alone? It seems that the only things sold those two ways are the $9.95 discount software CDs... this could have something to do with it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who equates little or no packaging with cheap, inferior software...
Note: I'm not saying that I SHOULD think like this, it's just my initial reaction because that's the only thing I've ever seen packaged like that.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
The cardboard displays take up too much space. Software stores like to put software on shelves.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
This was the /exact/ same argument that Audio CD Manufacturers used against jettisonning the boxes and just distributing the jewel cases. I remember Peter Townshend confronting a group of Industry folk and whining, "Gentlemen, you need to buy better browsers."
Unfortunately, less than a decade later, I don't think we have the kind of grassroots environmentalism alive to do this again.. There aren't any big media icons involved with software, aside from various CEOs and the 'Linux Nuts'. People are just sick of hearing about how their world is falling apart, because they keep doing the same stupid things, and many environmental concerns seem to have fallen to the wayside as just another story.
Weapons of Mass Analysis
" Remember when many albums had a gimmick... like that Stones Sticky Fingers album. "
Ah, the record cover that DESTROYED more other records than any other!
How about the Cheech & Chong record with the big
rolling paper?
Remember Gentle Giant's "Giant for a Day" with the
mask?
Led Zeppelin III with the window scenes,
or the original cover of Rolling Stones' Some Girls?
There was a Grand Funk Railroad shaped like a coin.
How about the stickers that came in every copy
of Dark Side of the Moon?
It is still true that the cover art is a bigger
part of the production budget than the CD creation (for many releases), but it was even more so back
in the day of album cover art.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
There was a wonderful question from a reader in a subsequent issue. It read "If all Atari games look like that inside, then why do some games cost so much more than others?"
Beautiful comment. Whacks the establishment right square on the head.
The editor did a nice dance talking about copyright, R&D expenses, paying poor overworked programmers, etc. and fully, though unintentionally I'm sure, made for a complete bullshit explanation that failed to justify the **HIGH** costs of some games over others, which is what the question asked.
Software prices are arbitrary. It's price is "whatever the market will stand". MS, the SPA, etc. will PREACH about how it pays for development costs, paying starving programmers salaries, testing, debugging, marketing, etc.
This.
Is.
False.
e.g., there's no reason the full version of windows should cost $130 (and the upgrade $90). The $$$ generated cover staff and R&D in their first 0.5% of profits. And once recovered, prices do not go down. It's just price gouging, pure and simple.
If you compare total revenue from software sales / R&D and programming and staff costs, you will find VAST deviations from software item to software item. It's not about programmers feeding their families, it's about gouging gouging gouging GOUGING.
A bigger box lets the SW vendors gouge a bit more than they could get away with if everything was fit into a standard CD jewel case. That's all there is too it.
Sorry for being offtopic, but that story came about before Slashdot instituted all sorts of measures (throttling posters who post too quickly, banning IP's, etc) to prevent such abuse. In fact, it's stories like that (and the 2nd-place story as well) that prompted such measures.
So Slashdot has some holes in it. You don't like it? Read something else.
For more information, click here.
Earlier this year, Gamespot did a feature on some of the most prominent computer game developers (Don't have the link, but I'm sure someone could find it). One of the questions they asked every one was, "If there was one thing you could change about the industry, what would it be?" About half of them said they wanted to slim down the game boxes. They pointed to current PlayStation games at your local EB. They are small, and you can fit tons of them on the shelf. Computer games boxes are huge compared to the PlayStations, and you can fit maybe only a quarter of the amount of games on the same shelf space, compared to the PlayStations. This means each computer game can be on the shelf for less time, which means many good games get pushed off the shelf before they have a chance to catch on, and hype surrounding a computer game's release has more to do with the success than the quality of the game.
The game developers stated that the publishers keep up with the huge boxes because they are afraid some small box would get lost amoung the rest of the huge boxes on the shelf. The developers also hoped that if one game shrank the box size, and sold well, that the rest would follow suit.
You can still fit a lot into a double-sized jew case. Look at Lunar: Silver Story Complete for PlayStation. It came with a good sized instruction book, 3 CD's, and a full-sided map!
-Kefabi out.
"It's in a big box, so there's more to recycle."
I read through this thinking how many people say 'consumers like this', 'consumers do that'. Hey, I'm a consumer! Here is I shop for titles (games, usually. Apps I get online). I like the smell of the software company. The big giant displays. The annoying salesman who seems to think his favorite game is the one everyone should buy. The rows and rows of games I've never heard of. I see something that looks interesting. Pick up the box. Read the system requirements. Open up the front flap. Look at the screen shots. Read the game description, the reviews on the side. Shake the box. Does it sound like just a jewel case flopping around in there or is it there a manual. Put the game down. Do this for an hour or two and decide on a game. Sure, I know I could get reviews, screenshots etc. on the net, but its not the same thing. It has been pointed out a number of times: People will always go to brick and mortar shops because they like to get out, they like the physical contact with the product before they put their money down. Don't get me wrong, I want the boxes to be smaller, but I also want to be able to see what I'm getting. I don't shop for play station games in a brick and mortar, since it's just the jewel box, and usually, it is behind glass where I can't examine it, so you have to know exactly what you want before going into the store. I think the best way is to keep the boxes on the shelves. When you take it up, you get a shrink rapped disk/docs to take with you. Interstellar Donkey
http://www.masscom.net/~deadfish/donkey.html
The Internet is generally stupid
One thing you can do is open the box at the checkout, take the stuff out, and hand the trash to the cashier. I have tried this before. It is amazing how much garbage there is when you even go someplace like the grocery store.
There are tons of products out there on the market that are overpackaged. Andes Mints are a good example. If you look at a package of them, you will see what appears to be a whole bunch of mints through the cellophane window. Open the box and all the mints you can see are the ones you are getting. The rest is just cardboard.
Also, to the person that submitted the story: this type of stuff has as much to do with common sense and waste of money as it does with being environmental. TANSTAAFL. When you buy one of these oversized packages, the manufacturer is not giving this to you for free, ya know? You the consumer are the one paying for it. Hence, why I give the trash back to the store.
After all, why should I have to pay to throw away their overpackaging of my SIMM chips when putting the chips in a little container would be much better in the first place?
It turns out that (At least, I was told this) Germany taxes the companies with bigger packages.
let's assume, just for an example, that the average software box is 10 inches high, 8 inches wide and 1 1/2 inches deep. Now let's say that this slightly larger box is 12 inches high, 12 inches wide, and 2 1/2 inches deep. Finally, we'll declare that a CD is approximately 5 inches, by 5 1/2 inches by 1/4 inch.
Box 1 Box 2 CDSurface Area(sq.in.) 214 408 60
Volume(cu.in.) 120 360 7
So it seems that the slightly bigger box uses 3 times the volume of the average box, and about 51 times the volume of a jewel case. But who cares about the environment, we've got product to sell, and it looks damned fine in a large box.
----------------------------
Just something to think about...
-- A computer without COBOL and Fortran is like a piece of chocolate cake without ketchup and mustard
Paper and cardboard actually make up the largest part of our waste stream, and not only do that generally not degrade well, in modern landfills, but the slick looking cardboard boxes of today's software have all sorts of nastiness associated with their disposal anyway. But as previously noted, fuck the environment, after all, if it was a big problem, then surely it would be on the evening news along with the little cuban boy, right?
----------------------------
Wrong... In 1996 packaging comprised 29.7 percent of all landfill waste in the United States. This document cites a case where a corporation cut two-inches off a box flap and saved $360,000 annually at one plant. Every inch matters.
Last time I checked, you've never lived in Canada and ordered something from America.
----------------------------
When you bury cardboard in great deep landfills, it doesn't decompose. It just sits there, like a rock. Probably, it eventually turns into coal, or something similar.
Cardboard is made from wood. Wood is made by trees sucking carbon dioxide from the air. When trees die naturally and rot, or are used for fuel, they release the carbon dioxide they absorbed back into the atmosphere.
We appear to have a problem with global warming from releasing too much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, by digging up carbon-based fuels from deep in the Earth and burning them.
Think about it...
Wasteful cardboard packaging helps slow global warming by fixing carbon in the Earth.
Don't recycle! Subscribe to every newspaper and magazine that you're vaguely interested in and toss them in a landfill. Forms in triplicate and printouts of everything are part of a secret government initiative to stop global warming!
Most bottles of wine with concave bottoms are for safety. When wine is allowed to ferment in the bottle, enough pressure cold build up to cause the bottle to explode. Add a concave bottom -> get more surface area for less volume -> less bottles blowing up.
Most true wines won't need this though since they don't ferment in the bottle. Champagne and other naturally carbonated wines usually do have stronger bottles (Thicker), and often the indented bottom.
I've had my share of homebrew beer bottles blow up on me before I learned to how much sugar to add and what kind of bottles to avoid using.
I wasn't complaining about it.
It just happens to be a pet peeve of mine that many self-proclaimed environmentalists don't have a clue about what does and does not actually have an environmental impact.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
I bought the latest Vicom FTP client for the Mac over the net with my VISA: one relatively quick download and they emailed be my registration code; no fuss, no muss, no GST, no friggin' $5.00 'handling charge' (oh, thank you Canada Post!), etc.
Just remember what John Ralston Saul sez: NAFTA: Not A Free Trade Agreement.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
I want to start collecting these in the back up my pickup and dump them all on AOLs doorstep some day...
-p.
Aha! That explains it. See, I live in LA County.... Have a look at the crime stats for our affluent neighboorhood.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
All that ended when COGS considerations were given the upper hand after R12. The weight of printed material intially was cut in half and has by now gone down to zero. The books, if you pay for them, are small format with cheap-o binding and printing popularized by MS. The slash boxes are replaced by the standard perishable cardboard waste. (Meanwhile the reduced costs were not passed onto the VAR or the consumer. Duh.)
Why do I bring this up? Because there used to be a real need for boxes. Customers developed expectations about software coming to them in boxes -- the bigger the better.
This is a silly issue altogether. The packaging waste is trivial compared to the paper wasted in most offices -- including in software shops. And the fuel wasted in distributing boxed CDs compared to on-line downloads is arguably more significant.
More recently, Autodesk chose to ship the actual CD;s in a nice biodegradable cardboard case instead of a jewel box. Customers revolted. They hated it. They forced them to change back to jewel cases. In public newwgroups Adesk folks were ridculed, no, excoriated for pointing out the virtues of the cardboard cases. Oh well.
During the early 80-s, when there was a trend to flat, 4-1/4 by 8 shrink wrapped manuals bound around a disk (perhaps with a flat "cover" wrapped around those). Then competitors started getting attention with prettier packaging, so everyone followed suit. We never went back.
(Only one of my Wizardry Series, Knight of Diamonds, was packaged in flat form, and even that was reissued in a box).
Microsoft packages the way it does for other reasons as well, to fight against privacy. There are zilions of clever "anti-piracy" tricks in the Microsoft packaging, designed to capture the unwary. It is, perhaps, a necessary evil when you are selling about $5-$25 in paper and plastic for prices in excess of $250.00
I think that's why Best Buy always has a guy standing at the door checking everyone's receipt as they leave. Probably well worth the trouble.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
ah, yes, thank you for the stats on your neighborhood... i see violent crime is a 184% of the national average, and non-violent crime is 226% of average.
----------------------------
a) The record industries weren't forced to change their packaging. It seemed that way, that they were getting pressure from environmental groups. But if you stop and think about it, the amount of plastic and paper in an old cd package was actually inconsiquention, especially when compared to the consumer waste generated by other products, like fast food containers.. What really went on (and I was there working in a record store so I saw this first hand), the record companies not only put up no resistance, but they encouraged the environmentalist groups to lobby for it. Why? It reduced the physical space of each cd by half, making it cheaper to ship (by volume, not counting the weight anyway), and twice as cheap to store in warehouses. I mean, come on, has *anyone* ever heard of an environmentalist group being able to affect an entire industry so cleanly? Especially the record industry, with billions of dollars to fight (if they wanted to). The only objection of course was from the record stores, who now had to worry about theft since the cd's were in smaller packages and easily pocketed. They were forced to buy those expensive CD security frames and/or those security systems that go off when you try to leave the store with product.
b) Last I checked, Microsoft wasn't the only culprit. Redhat, Suse, Slackware all had nice big boxes too. (Granted some of them had manuals, but there's still a fair amount of air in them).
_______
2B1ASK1
On 'Talk of the Nation' on NPR today they are going to have Nader as the guest. Should be interesting.
Yes: The display packs come with a cardboard stand and a bunch of product for less than it normally costs to buy the product. Might as well save some money.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"