Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the excellent-smithers dept.
kdgarris writes: "The KDE team has released the second beta for the KDE 2.0 desktop environment. Check out the announcement here." The new-and-improved list is pretty lengthy and very impressive. Worth a look see.
I don't have Kleopatra (yet) but I run the 06082000 build and it just keeps getting better. A lot of more evident bugs that were in Konfucious are gone now and the whole lot is really coming together. My only concern is the state of Konqueror which still seems too flakey for any real browsing, still looks more of a proof of concept thing. Koffice is usable now as is and I can recommend Kword to anyone frustrated with the hopeless UI of MS Word. I never used FrameMaker but this frame concept has much more appeal to me than the blooming MS Word templates that never work properly for anything beyond a two page letter.
I have a big beef with KDE though. No not the licensing silly! It's the fact that they ditched Corba as their component architecture. Why? It's not slow at all if you use in-process servers it's elegant in most languages and wiht the addition of POA it's extremely flexible. The argument that CORBA is to difficult to master for Joe sixpack developer doesn't hold anymore since the Henning Vinoski book's out. My biggest concern is that with OMG adopting the Corba Component Model all DCOPs and Bonobos will effectively become proprietary solutions. CCM will provide good intergration with JavaBeans which I'm sure all Java affectionados will appreciate too. Why oh why did they have to rid of CORBA?!
Re:It's getting nice
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 3
Here's a quote from David Faure concerning this:
-- snip --- I think www.kde.org/technology.html (mosfet's) speaks quite well about this. If not, my take on it is:
- stability (that's the main one. If you used pre-canossa KOffice, you know what a real stability problem with embedding is). - wrong approach - starting servers for embedded components, leads to servers left running after you exit the main app (ok, that's a bug, but it shows wrong design IMHO. What should be one application was a set of distributed ones, hence this kind of problems). - memory usage and slow performances - but people associate this with MICO more than with CORBA in general. Well, we'll never really know, but in any case we had to do something about this. - the interoperability we were supposed to benefit from it was null. gnome uses an orbit-specific authentication mechanism which made interoperability as difficult as it is now, and nobody ever had any interest in making the CORBA things in gnome and KDE work together anyway.
In short, I always say: we had all the disadvantages of distributed computing (stability, reliability, performance issues) for something that is not distributed, in 99% of the cases - a desktop is local, most of the time.
But it was fun, writing sources that nobody could read afterwards:/. CORBA programming is like perl. Write once, read never;-)
No, not better than any distributed system. DCOM probably has lower performance over a network, but locally, it uses COM, and has a great deal more performance. So what happens is, that local performance performs like it should, at a slight expense at network performance and flexibility. I think this is a better trade off for something being integrated into a desktop environment, because the vast majority of apps will run locally. X had this same problem. It had great network performance, but crappy local performance. Fortunately the fixed most of it in 4.0, but there is no reason to start the problem again with a object model. MICO may be rock solid, and not that bad, but only in network mode. In local mode, MICO, and CORBA in general blows.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The problem was not actually that CORBA was unreliable --despite the KDE people repeating this over and over-- but that they chose to use CORBA as a transparent layer for inter process communications: they assumed that CORBA invocations had to be equal to function invocations, and that failures would never happen and that they should not happen.
Their code was not prepared to deal with failures across CORBA invocations (for example, invoking a CORBA method on a dead server and handling the fact that the server died).
Basically, it required each CORBA invocation to be handled by try {} catch blocks, but my guess is that they assumed they did not have to use that.
Another option I heard later from someone who claimed originated from Torben --which was even more sad-- was that they wanted to "check" for the service before invoking the method to avoid a crash (or my guess is to avoid the try{} catch blocks).
Miguel.
Re:It's getting nice
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2
you took nine months to compile, and it's not likely you were worth the wait either
I have a big beef with KDE though. No not the licensing silly! It's the fact that they ditched Corba as their component architecture. Why? It's not slow at all if you use in-process servers it's elegant in most languages and wiht the addition of POA it's extremely flexible.
All well and good to stand on the soapbox and declare this, but the KDE folks stepped up to the plate, tried CORBA, and came off bitterly disappointed. CORBA is a design-by-committee standard with a hugely heavyweight protocol (you ever seen how BIG an IOR is?), and layer after layer of API.
My biggest concern is that with OMG adopting the Corba Component Model all DCOPs and Bonobos will effectively become proprietary solutions. CCM will provide good intergration with JavaBeans which I'm sure all Java affectionados will appreciate too.
That's like saying OSF adopted Motif. OMG did not adopt CORBA, they invented it. We didn't exactly see Motif proliferate as an open and nonproprietary solution either (though it was a breath of fresh air at the time). Maybe this or that encrustation of yet another boondoggle might someday make us all hold hands in a fully interconnected world, but in the meantime, I defy you to show me just two free and open ORBs that can interoperate at a complex level. Let's try an important one, how about the Security service?
Why oh why did they have to rid of CORBA?!
Because they tried it, and the same armchair designers whinged about the overhead.
-- I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I've got this from a weird German BSD book: KDE started off as the "Cool Desktop Environment", but CDE was already a short for the Common Desktop Environment, included with Solaris. In the tradition of weird Unix names (GNU = "Gnu is Not Unix", PINE = "Pine Is Not Elm") they decided in favor of the name "K Desktop Environment".
Re:But what about the license???
by
be-fan
·
· Score: 2
That is stupid. Derived works are the WHOLE POINT OF A LIBRARY THAT YOU CHARGE FOR. Since nobody uses a widget set simply for the hell of it, derrived works is the only way for Troll Tech to make money. As of now, if you want to use Qt for a professional app, you have to pay. Troll tech can't do that if Qt is GPL'd. Also, even in that case, wouldn't LGPL be more appropriate? GPL'd QT would suck, since that would mean ALL Qt apps would have to be GPL'd. The whole concept is stupid. You're saying that if GPL'd code uses other code, that code atuomatically becomes GPL? Does that mean any BSD code put into Linux automatically becomes GPL? Why not just have a GPLizer program, that automatically incorporates code into GPL'd programs, thus GPL'ing the code!
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Just a nitpick, X has no DnD implementation. XDND has nothing to do with X itself, i.e. it is not an X extension or anything, it just has a name that sounds like it. XDND is however, used by both gnome and KDE, and if they agree on the type encodings, they should interoperate almost seamlessly (except the drop target probably won't know how to tell the drag "server" that it received the object)
-- I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Re:Going out on a limb here...
by
be-fan
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· Score: 2
That's bullshit. Why was this moderated up? GNOME and KDE don't help windows users move. In fact, up till recently, GNOME used E as the WM. What GNOME and KDE do, is provide a set of services to graphical applications using the GTK+ and Qt widget sets (respectivaly). (Stuff that should be in the OS proper, but that's a different matter:) Hell, you can use TWM and get as advanced as you want, but without stuff like KDE, no DCOP for you! Also, I get the hint that you think that stuff like integration, and consistancy are for newbies. Not true. They are for smart people who want to get work done without having to spend time learning a new interface.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Re:Helix Gnome will-be/is better than KDE2-release
by
be-fan
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· Score: 2
Naw, GNOME is mostly fat, no meat whatsoever:) Look, I'm not a Linux newbie, but I simply like KDE better. I'm a speed freak, and KDE tends to be faster and take less memory. Also, I refuse to use a DE that has been tarnished by the bloated piece of shit that is CORBA.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Re:Helix Gnome will-be/is better than KDE2-release
by
be-fan
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· Score: 2
I know this is a troll, but just so nobody gets misinformation. KParts is a lot more like COM than Bonobo. Bonobo is based on CORBA, which is quite different from COM. Back during the object model wars of '94 (its true, you guys think object models are new, but Linux is hideously late to this game) there were two competitors, SOM and COM. SOM was CORBA complient and support inheritance, while COM was a very different MS design, and supported aggregation. I prefer COM, because it is more light weight. CORBA, however is not. Don't you dare mention CORBA and COM in the same sentance 'kay?
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
This is so Kick ass. I'm a little angry that people don't give Konqueror more credit. It is truly one of KDE's crown jewels. Imagine the past: Here I am with my beautiful, reasonably fast Linux desktop, but right in the middle is the slow and bloated web browser from Motif hell. I've gotten so used to fast, light, nice looking browsers (IE on Windows, Netposetive on BeOS) that using Netscape positivly pained me.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Welcome to the Bleeding Edge of Software Development! New Feartures in "Bleeding Edge App4 V2.20.0.1"
Breaks all existing programs. Breaks all existing configuration files. Get to spend quality time (ie: tech support) with users. Corrupts old data files. Need to compile 16 megs of *NEW* libaries to work..
Seriously though, this isn't meant as a flame, but why do you *HAVE* to upgrade *RIGHT NOW*? If KDE (whatever version you are using) works for you, why not stick with it? Wait till KDE 2.0 gets tested and debugged by more users, and wait till you almost have to upgrade. (this advice is only toward desktops, other software may differ)
Or just wait till you upgrade you distro in 2-12 months, it should have the lastest and greatest KDE version precompiled for ya. If you don't feel like compiling hunderards of megs of sources, don't, wait till you need or want a really cool fearture, then do it then.
--
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
What's all the whinging for?
by
trellick
·
· Score: 4
Grow up. Stop all this 'Gnome is waay better that KDE doode' and vice-versa crap.
That's the point of open-source you get a CHOICE, you try it, you like it, you use it. You don't like it, then you don't use it. [and it doesn't cost the earth!]
And for those people who carp out about "well I don't need that I'm better of with a chisel, a rock, my vt100 terminal and a 1200/75 modem!", well fine!.....
BUT do you really thing the legions of windoze users are going to be tempted to move across to something that doesn't look purty and do what they could do??
Half of them spontaneously combust at the sight of a command line! [Trust me on this one;) ]
Personally, I take me hat off to both the KDE/GNOME boys and girls and thank them profusely for BOTH doing something different and moving their products [and Linux] onto the desktop of more and more users.
Roll on September and KDE 2.0 final!
Re:What's all the whinging for?
by
LocalYokel
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· Score: 2
Oh, but GNOME is sooooo much better than KDE.
Anyway, I see that the KDE/GNOME flame wars have gone to the next level. First there were the spacehogging arguments over GNOME vs. KDE. Now come the complaints about how these flames suck. Maybe I should do some complaining, too... Why can't we just discuss the subject at hand? I last remember it being about KDE 2.0 -- thanks everyone.
Re:What's all the whinging for?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2
In the spirit of things.... grdb is based on krdb (as nicely mentioned on grdb's home page) This is not one-upmanship. Just credit where credit is due (the original poster seemed to imply that this was a Gnome only feature...)
Looking Forward to Konq
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2
The marketspeak about Konqueror is playing some mighty big name games these days: HTML 4.0, CSS2... These two standards alone have the capability to revolutionize the web.
Client-side HTML includes using <OBJECT> support? CSS2 positioning (absolute/relative/fixed)? If support for these is anywhere near usable, this web browser might be the FIRST leap to the semantic web which structured document writers have pined after for years, even beating Mozilla to the punch. (Mozilla's support for modular HTML using <OBJECT>, CSS2's "before:" or "after:" pseudoclass embedding, or XLink inclusion are still either nonexistant or relegated to the farthest corners of Mozilla, earmarked for Milestone 127 at best.)
Does anyone have any information about standards-compliance in this browser? Do the pretty toys like CSS2's "shadow" property work? Proper PNG translucency? How about XML namespace selection within CSS2 stylesheets?
Somebody with experience, please let us know. I'm looking to KDE to lead the way!
Let me try to answer your questions about the current status of khtml (the html rendering engine of konqueror):
You can use aswell as to include html subpages. Or do you mean including the html directly? This is nowhere defined in the HTML standards AFAIK.
CSS positioning is supported except for fixed, but I'm confident we'll have that working by the time we release KDE2.
CSS2 support is however far from being complete.:before and:after pseudoclasses are still not supported, neither is the text-shadow property. But to be honest, there isn't a single browser out having support for text-shadow, the same is true for a lot of other CSS2 properties.
PNG alpha channels are not supported, but that is a limitation of X11 rather than konqueror. One could in principle work around that, but the price to pay for it is quite heavy, since one has to get the pixmap below the image from the server, blend the image on top and send the result back to the server. This would slow down rendering more than I am willing to compromise on for such a feature.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by XML namespace selection in CSS2 sheets. Anyway, khtml unfortunately still doesn't have support for XML (xhtml is supported however), just because the developers we have are booked out with other things.
You might be interested in this page: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~dbaron/css/test /results It shows a comparison between several browsers, including Konqueror, regarding CSS, CSS2, etc...
KDE is shaping up to be quite cool, and blessdly, you no longer have to run GNOME (which is quite a bit slower than KDE) to have a sweet looking desktop. KDE2's imaging and use of high color icons is really nice. However, it is still badly designed, as are all Linux DEs. To put it bluntly, KDE and GNOME simply are not compatible. If you want to run apps from both, (which is necessary if, like me, you like running GNOME but developed in KDevelop) then you have to have both installed. This gets worse, because during the KDE1/KDE2, GNOME1/GNOME2, you'll have to have all four installed to maintain decent compatibility. With just KDE and GNOME loaded, I get 40Meg resident memory use (according to KTop) on my 128 meg system. This is simply unacceptable. Even NT doesn't use that much memory from standstill (more like 30 megs or so) not to mention BeOS (some obscenely small number. Actually, BeOS is the only system that doesn't feel noticable faster in most apps after the upgrade from 64MB to 128MB.) Of course, I'm all for freedom of choice. Can you have your cake and eat it too? Of course! What about a DE that supplied low level stuff, like printing, object model, communication, API, stuff like that, and have a window manager take care of interface aspects and widget sets. This idea takes advantage of the fact that (from the big picture) all GUI software does the same things, and all widget sets provide the same services. So applications are written to the standard API, and whatever WM is loaded, interprets these requests. This would lead to even more customizability for the user (not the programmer, but who cares about he programmer?) All widgets are asked for the same services. So you could have a WM that implments the most efficiant GUI possible, while another one that implements a Windows-like GUI. In both cases, you'd have color dialoges that return an RGB value, so who cares how the dialogue acts. It could implment a standard color wheel, or it could ask the user for an RGB value, or it could randomly pick a number, the interface is the same. Not only would this desktop be more customizable, it would be faster, more stable, and less bloated, because it would have less code than two DEs and more people could be used hacking the core code. I mean you guys are all C programmers right? Ever heard of interface seperate from implementation? The idea at work here folks. Do you care about Bonobo and KParts? Sure. Do you have some insane attachment to one over the other? If so, get help.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Wouldn't it be nice if this stuff were enapsulated through something like COM? DirectX has 7 very different versions, yet I only have one library, because incompatiblilites can be addressed at a very granular level. (IE. If only a few functions are different, but renders the entire library incompatible, through COM, you can reimplment only those functions in a new interface, and transparently call the old ones.)
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Is the most difficult part of using and enjoying linux/GNU software.
All these alphas, betas, snapshots, etc make the stable versions of software look increasingly more like stale versions than anything else.
You know it doesn't work properly, you know it will crash, you know some features are missing, you know you will need to refurbish half your system to sort dependencies... You know all that and still you use it and can't wait for the next unstable/beta whatever to come out and see what has changed.
It's life on the fast lane... Well, sort of anyway;D
Well done KDE team! (Must... resist... download...)
Blasphemy! You're not a real hacker are you? I like running the latest and the greatest (especially in the case of KDE 2, where it is faster than 1.x). To tell the truth, I am guilty of living VERY bleeding edge. I'm running Mandrake 7.1, kernel 2.4-test, XFree86 4.0, nVidia BetaGL, and I'm dabbling with KDE 2-beta1.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Fool. Either way, it means nothing if you aren't familiar with the program. Take xfm. X Friggin' Media? X Floppy Mangler? Xenophobic fruity man? Or pam, Pretty Anoying mercenary, probably angry mutent, possibly attacking molars? Or how about xmms. Xtremely mobile mutent snails? Xtremely mad magic sicophants? The point is that xfm means just as little as Konqueror, but Konqueror sounds nicer.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
True. I never much liked linux naming conventions, which tended to favor arbitrary sounding acronyms over attractive names. For example, WinAmp vs. xmms, or Windows Explorer vs. kfm. I'm glad to see KDE at least moving towards names like Konqueror rather than kwb or some such. Plus, with competing widget sets, it's convenient to know right off the bat which goes with what.
Re:Red Hat Linux packages available
by
bero-rh
·
· Score: 2
No need, just --force installation. The beta packages go to/opt/kde2, the only "conflicting" files are config stuff.
-- This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Re:Red Hat Linux packages available
by
bero-rh
·
· Score: 2
Sure - it's running on Red Hat Linux after all.;) Oh, and besides the line is so bad that even all the traffic it can stand won't kill the server.;)
-- This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Red Hat Linux packages available
by
bero-rh
·
· Score: 3
Red Hat Linux (tested on 6.2) packages for beta 2 for x86, alpha and sparc are now available at http://www.bero.org/kde/.
-- This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
I don't really like having many different versions of libraries (Qt 1.4, 1.41, 2.0, 2.1-beta, 2.1-thursday, etc.) on my machine, plus, RPM makes this quite difficult even if I wanted to.
Well that's your choice, but that doesn't mean the system is broken. You can have multiple versions of libraries on your system for the very reason you mentioned, so you don't break old apps.
RPM lets you have multiple versions of libraries on your system, although it does not allow multiple *devel* RPMS for the most part. If you want to upgrade, just rpm -e the old devel headers and the apps that are being upgraded (leaving the libraries that old apps you're keeping depend on), and then rpm --install <new libraries> [that's install, not -U or --upgrade] and all should be fine.
:wq!
--
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
Re:It's perfectly legal...
by
Arandir
·
· Score: 2
Those people who have had their GPLd code used in KDE have already been notified. None of them have yet protested. But even this is a non-issue. The GPL operates under copyright law, and not contract law. It cannot take away legal rights that the user already possesses. And since copyright law is completely silent on references, dynamic linkage to and from the GPL is permitted.
Maybe GPLv3 will remove that clause about copyright law and it will become a contract like the EULA, but for now it's legal to reference non-GPLd libraries and incorporate their interfaces in the binary.
"...the ONLY real solution to this mess is for the Trolls to release Qt under the GPL
Yes, it would solve the problem, but it is not the Trolls problem. You don't demand that a third party correct the actions of a first party. They weren't the ones writing or using GPLd code.
-- A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Re:At least KDE and GNOME adhere to the same stand
by
Arandir
·
· Score: 2
The QPL is perfectly sensible for making modifications. It only makes forking difficult.
I mean, come on! You would actually submit a Qt bug fix as a 2Meg tarball of the complete sources instead of a 100Byte patch? I bet the gtk people just love your submissions:-)
-- A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
You know, that post you're responding to just MIGHT have been humor... apparently four moderators thought that way, at least. -- No more e-mail address game - see my user info. Time for revenge.
-- Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
Re:Going out on a limb here...
by
brank
·
· Score: 2
GNOME and KDE are intended for Windows users just making the switch. They mimick the Windows interface as closely as possible to easy the transition. Those that don't need that kind of this can move on to more advance wms, like Enlightenment, that can look radically different. I, too, use E and I am very happy with it.
Ulitmatly, these enviroments will help convert a lot of people. Some of them will stay there, but the ones who want to learn more about their computers will move on to other things. Not to say that GNOME isn't an advance UI. It is a very good setup, and I use it third most often after E and TWM. You can be an advanced user and use GNOME. But many will move on to something more flexible. E's menus are certainly easier to customize.
jbarnett wanted to know: Seriously though, this isn't meant as a flame, but why do you *HAVE* to upgrade *RIGHT NOW*? If KDE (whatever version you are using) works for you, why not stick with it? Wait till KDE 2.0 gets tested and debugged by more users, and wait till you almost have to upgrade. (this advice is only toward desktops, other software may differ)
Just a wild guess here, but -- maybe to test the silly thing? Remember, this is open-source software. We don't pay for it in cash, and not everyone can add code, but we can all add eyeball time. Which is the coin of the open-source world.
You do intend to pay your dues, don't you?
-- Lacking <sarcasm> tags,/. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
Yeah, can anyone help me with a Linux problem I have? I tried GNOME and liked it better, so I wanted to remove KDE. I got rid of all the packages starting with "k", and now LILO crashes.
j/k
--
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
YOUR TROLL SCORE IS
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 4
4
You trolling skills are very rough and need to be honed. You lose major points by falling into the trap of many new trollers, you are way too obvious. Lets do some in depth analysis on your troll:
Wow. Yet another program whose job it is to devour my entire screen so I can run half-baked programs that duplicate everything I already have. No thanks
You troll entry point here is all wrong. If you start your troll routine on an agressive it sets off a red flag for the judges.I realize your adrenaline is runnig high but you need to start off a little slower to be an effictive troll
Give me a break. KDE and GNOME are worthless. I can run any program I want without a huge "panel", without a start button, and without a bloated gui. The insistence of the KDE and GNOME teams upon you only using their software is sickining. Why shouldn't I use software that hasn't been "blessed" by KDE with a spot on the K menu, or on the panel?
Okay now your deep into your troll here but your form is all wrong. Instead of going with the angry self-rightous tone maybe you should try the "I'm a confused newbie" tone, or my favorite, the "I'm a seasoned computer proffesional" tone. The angry troll rarely works well
Thanks, but I think I'll stick to xterm. It has a better interface anyway
Your troll dismount is sloppy and not well thought out. You really need a lot of work here.
> KDE started off as the "Cool Desktop Environment"
I doubt the veracity of the book story. I suspect "Kalle's Desktop Environment", but the KDE maintainers have insisted that the "K" doesn't stand for anything at all, and that it was sort of a germanized spoof name of CDE (diesen krazy deutschlanderen, jah?).
-- I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Re:serious question...
by
Junks+Jerzey
·
· Score: 2
at what point does all this "K" naming stuff stop being cute, and start being annoying? I'm starting to dislike all these "Krappy" names.
Amen to that. The misplaced Ks sound very B-movie cheesy: Komputronix, Mortal Kombat, The Komplete Guide to Hi-larious Practikal Jokes.
KDE 1.0 apps work with Qt-1.4x and KDE 2.0 apps work with Qt-2.1x. During linkage, each app *knows* which library it wants, so you only need two libraries. One for the old apps and one for the new.
I don't know who told you that you needed twenty different versions, but they're wrong.
-- A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Commercial licenses for closed source software (which uses the library) are how Troll Tech makes money. Not from derivations of the library. >>>>>> Qt is a class library. People use it be deriving from it. Under legal pressure, your QMyapp:public QApplication could be considered a derived work.
Wrong. A GPL'd library would cover all GPL'd uses. You'd still have to pay for an exception to the GPL (like Reserfs, as I mentioned) if you wanted to develop a proprietary, closed source application and distribute it to someone else (internal apps could probably get away without paying). >>>>>>> Doesn't the GPL say that you cannot charge for the right to use to code? Isn't it impossible for Linus to use the GPL, except when it involves Microsoft? Isn't the QPL essentially the GPL with that exception?
That would cause the very problem you were just arguing against! That *would* allow commercial proprietary software to be built on Qt without paying the Trolls. >>>>>>>>> I'm pretty sure that LGPL is there for a reason. If the libraries were GPL'ed, then anything linking to them would would automatically become GPL. Hence to problem I mention lower. So if GPL won't work, and LGPL won't work, what's the problem with QPL?
>GPL'd QT would suck, since that would mean ALL Qt apps would have to be GPL'd.
OK, I'll grant that. Simple solution: Make Qt Free Edition dual licensed by the GPL *and* QPL. That would keep the BSD *and* GPL folks happy. And still charge for the commercial version. What more could you want? >>>>>>>>>> How 'bout it stays the way it is and the GPL folk shut up? They are the ones using QPL code inside GPL code. How, in anyway, does it involved the TrollTech people? Shouldn't KDE change its license to somethign other than the GPL?
Heh, not a bad idea. The GPL is, after all, the only good software license.:-) >>>>> I prefer BSD, but license wars are stupid. It should the entirely the author's choice, and all people who complain are just bitching.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
GNOME and KDE are intended for Windows users just making the switch.
Wrongo! The purpose of GNOME and KDE is to provide a desktop for X. You might not need or want a desktop, but that's no call to denigrate everyone who does. GNOME and KDE are attempting something never before achieved in X or Unix, and that is consistancy. Just because Windows and Mac also attempts this does not mean that consistancy is wrong.
-- A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
While I agree it is somewhat inconvienent to have to continually installing a new version of QT, I suspect there are not many ways out of it. At some point they must require a switch over to the new QT, and its better to start now when they are still writting code, then have to completely rewrite later.
Plus, you can keep all your libraries by using:
rpm -ivh qtxxx.rpm
instead of
rpm -Uvh qtxxx.rpm
The first one just installs the libraries, the second will upgrade. Upgrading meaning get rid of the old versions, install just installs.
And the source is available, so it's kind of had for it to be proprietary, even if it's not quite the right way according to the OMG. There's no reason why it couldn't exist peacefully alongside something else, too.
--
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
You touched a nerve here actually. ORBit has some sort of client authentication built in which means it can't interoperate with any other ORB. That to me is defeating the whole purpose of CORBA. If you can't interoperate with other ORBs you might as well write your stuff in your own programming language and develop your own APIs. Besides Having read Bonobo intro it doesn't look as good as the old KParts (I hope the new DCOP based KParts are just as clean). Bonobo otoh is a COM ripoff - it uses CORBA only to do marshalling and IDL.
when will people stop being so close-minded? I'm point-picking the headline in the announcement, it says "for Linux". But KDE is a desktop for Unix-like environments, and there are plenty Unices out there...
I can give a short summary about the current status of khtml.
Html4: about 95% implemented.
CSS1: about 80%-90% implemented. Only very few properties are still missing.
CSS2: about 40%. Together khtml's CSS support is not far away from what IE5 on windows offers.
DOM Level 1: Almost complete. The HTML part is completely implemented, a few thigs specific to XML are still missing.
DOM Level2: The CSS part, traversal and ranges are implemented. Still missing are the events. This means about 70% is implemented.
Support for java applets is mostly complete.
Netscape plugins (flash, real player, etc) work.
Javascript: The core (ecma-262 version3) ist almost complete, but the DOM bindings still need some work.
khtml has support for bidirectional scripts (hebrew and arabic).
it is pretty fast:-)
khtml is still a bit buggy on some pages, but we expect to get that fixed until the release of KDE2. As long as you don't need too much javascript it is already very useable and many people are using konqueror as their main browser.
I am slightly pissed that they reffered to KParts as an object model. An object model is something along the lines of COM and SOM, and simply define a method for easily upgradable, shared objects. When he refers to the fact that KParts handles stuff like where toolbars should go, he gets it wrong. An object model does not handle those thins, that is the work of a embedding system (don't know the jargon for it), along the lines of OLE or OpenDOC. In these cases, OLE and OpenDOC are the embedding system, and they use the object model (COM and SOM respectivaly) to facilitate the embedding.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Slashdot Mirror
I have a big beef with KDE though. No not the licensing silly! It's the fact that they ditched Corba as their component architecture. Why? It's not slow at all if you use in-process servers it's elegant in most languages and wiht the addition of POA it's extremely flexible. The argument that CORBA is to difficult to master for Joe sixpack developer doesn't hold anymore since the Henning Vinoski book's out. My biggest concern is that with OMG adopting the Corba Component Model all DCOPs and Bonobos will effectively become proprietary solutions. CCM will provide good intergration with JavaBeans which I'm sure all Java affectionados will appreciate too. Why oh why did they have to rid of CORBA?!
I've got this from a weird German BSD book: KDE started off as the "Cool Desktop Environment", but CDE was already a short for the Common Desktop Environment, included with Solaris. In the tradition of weird Unix names (GNU = "Gnu is Not Unix", PINE = "Pine Is Not Elm") they decided in favor of the name "K Desktop Environment".
That is stupid. Derived works are the WHOLE POINT OF A LIBRARY THAT YOU CHARGE FOR. Since nobody uses a widget set simply for the hell of it, derrived works is the only way for Troll Tech to make money. As of now, if you want to use Qt for a professional app, you have to pay. Troll tech can't do that if Qt is GPL'd. Also, even in that case, wouldn't LGPL be more appropriate? GPL'd QT would suck, since that would mean ALL Qt apps would have to be GPL'd. The whole concept is stupid. You're saying that if GPL'd code uses other code, that code atuomatically becomes GPL? Does that mean any BSD code put into Linux automatically becomes GPL? Why not just have a GPLizer program, that automatically incorporates code into GPL'd programs, thus GPL'ing the code!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
> KDE Drag and drop --> X Drag and Drop
Just a nitpick, X has no DnD implementation. XDND has nothing to do with X itself, i.e. it is not an X extension or anything, it just has a name that sounds like it. XDND is however, used by both gnome and KDE, and if they agree on the type encodings, they should interoperate almost seamlessly (except the drop target probably won't know how to tell the drag "server" that it received the object)
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
That's bullshit. Why was this moderated up? GNOME and KDE don't help windows users move. In fact, up till recently, GNOME used E as the WM. What GNOME and KDE do, is provide a set of services to graphical applications using the GTK+ and Qt widget sets (respectivaly). (Stuff that should be in the OS proper, but that's a different matter :) Hell, you can use TWM and get as advanced as you want, but without stuff like KDE, no DCOP for you! Also, I get the hint that you think that stuff like integration, and consistancy are for newbies. Not true. They are for smart people who want to get work done without having to spend time learning a new interface.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Naw, GNOME is mostly fat, no meat whatsoever :) Look, I'm not a Linux newbie, but I simply like KDE better. I'm a speed freak, and KDE tends to be faster and take less memory. Also, I refuse to use a DE that has been tarnished by the bloated piece of shit that is CORBA.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I know this is a troll, but just so nobody gets misinformation. KParts is a lot more like COM than Bonobo. Bonobo is based on CORBA, which is quite different from COM. Back during the object model wars of '94 (its true, you guys think object models are new, but Linux is hideously late to this game) there were two competitors, SOM and COM. SOM was CORBA complient and support inheritance, while COM was a very different MS design, and supported aggregation. I prefer COM, because it is more light weight. CORBA, however is not. Don't you dare mention CORBA and COM in the same sentance 'kay?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
This is so Kick ass. I'm a little angry that people don't give Konqueror more credit. It is truly one of KDE's crown jewels. Imagine the past: Here I am with my beautiful, reasonably fast Linux desktop, but right in the middle is the slow and bloated web browser from Motif hell. I've gotten so used to fast, light, nice looking browsers (IE on Windows, Netposetive on BeOS) that using Netscape positivly pained me.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Welcome to the Bleeding Edge of Software Development! New Feartures in "Bleeding Edge App4 V2.20.0.1"
Breaks all existing programs.
Breaks all existing configuration files.
Get to spend quality time (ie: tech support) with users.
Corrupts old data files.
Need to compile 16 megs of *NEW* libaries to work..
Seriously though, this isn't meant as a flame, but why do you *HAVE* to upgrade *RIGHT NOW*? If KDE (whatever version you are using) works for you, why not stick with it? Wait till KDE 2.0 gets tested and debugged by more users, and wait till you almost have to upgrade. (this advice is only toward desktops, other software may differ)
Or just wait till you upgrade you distro in 2-12 months, it should have the lastest and greatest KDE version precompiled for ya. If you don't feel like compiling hunderards of megs of sources, don't, wait till you need or want a really cool fearture, then do it then.
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
Grow up. Stop all this 'Gnome is waay better that KDE doode' and vice-versa crap.
;) ]
That's the point of open-source you get a CHOICE, you try it, you like it, you use it. You don't like it, then you don't use it. [and it doesn't cost the earth!]
And for those people who carp out about "well I don't need that I'm better of with a chisel, a rock, my vt100 terminal and a 1200/75 modem!", well fine!.....
BUT do you really thing the legions of windoze users are going to be tempted to move across to something that doesn't look purty and do what they could do??
Half of them spontaneously combust at the sight of a command line! [Trust me on this one
Personally, I take me hat off to both the KDE/GNOME boys and girls and thank them profusely for BOTH doing something different and moving their products [and Linux] onto the desktop of more and more users.
Roll on September and KDE 2.0 final!
Hey! Pine officially stands for Program for Internet News and Email! :) (But we all know what it really stands for.)
My journal has hot
The marketspeak about Konqueror is playing some mighty big name games these days: HTML 4.0, CSS2... These two standards alone have the capability to revolutionize the web.
Client-side HTML includes using <OBJECT> support? CSS2 positioning (absolute/relative/fixed)? If support for these is anywhere near usable, this web browser might be the FIRST leap to the semantic web which structured document writers have pined after for years, even beating Mozilla to the punch. (Mozilla's support for modular HTML using <OBJECT>, CSS2's "before:" or "after:" pseudoclass embedding, or XLink inclusion are still either nonexistant or relegated to the farthest corners of Mozilla, earmarked for Milestone 127 at best.)
Does anyone have any information about standards-compliance in this browser? Do the pretty toys like CSS2's "shadow" property work? Proper PNG translucency? How about XML namespace selection within CSS2 stylesheets?
Somebody with experience, please let us know. I'm looking to KDE to lead the way!
KDE is shaping up to be quite cool, and blessdly, you no longer have to run GNOME (which is quite a bit slower than KDE) to have a sweet looking desktop. KDE2's imaging and use of high color icons is really nice. However, it is still badly designed, as are all Linux DEs. To put it bluntly, KDE and GNOME simply are not compatible. If you want to run apps from both, (which is necessary if, like me, you like running GNOME but developed in KDevelop) then you have to have both installed. This gets worse, because during the KDE1/KDE2, GNOME1/GNOME2, you'll have to have all four installed to maintain decent compatibility. With just KDE and GNOME loaded, I get 40Meg resident memory use (according to KTop) on my 128 meg system. This is simply unacceptable. Even NT doesn't use that much memory from standstill (more like 30 megs or so) not to mention BeOS (some obscenely small number. Actually, BeOS is the only system that doesn't feel noticable faster in most apps after the upgrade from 64MB to 128MB.) Of course, I'm all for freedom of choice. Can you have your cake and eat it too? Of course! What about a DE that supplied low level stuff, like printing, object model, communication, API, stuff like that, and have a window manager take care of interface aspects and widget sets. This idea takes advantage of the fact that (from the big picture) all GUI software does the same things, and all widget sets provide the same services. So applications are written to the standard API, and whatever WM is loaded, interprets these requests. This would lead to even more customizability for the user (not the programmer, but who cares about he programmer?) All widgets are asked for the same services. So you could have a WM that implments the most efficiant GUI possible, while another one that implements a Windows-like GUI. In both cases, you'd have color dialoges that return an RGB value, so who cares how the dialogue acts. It could implment a standard color wheel, or it could ask the user for an RGB value, or it could randomly pick a number, the interface is the same. Not only would this desktop be more customizable, it would be faster, more stable, and less bloated, because it would have less code than two DEs and more people could be used hacking the core code. I mean you guys are all C programmers right? Ever heard of interface seperate from implementation? The idea at work here folks. Do you care about Bonobo and KParts? Sure. Do you have some insane attachment to one over the other? If so, get help.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Compatibility is a nifty thing to have.
.kdelnk files have been replaced with a .desktop file standard, being used by GNOME and KDE now.
That's why with KDE 2, KDE has dropped a bunch of KDE-specific things in favor of more general standards:
KDE Drag and drop --> X Drag and Drop
KDE Window manager hints --> NET WM-SPEC
KDE Session Management --> X Session Management
These three things can allow for many apps to work with KDE, and vice-versa, without even requiring the use of KDE libraries.
As far as GNOME-KDE compatibility, the
Wouldn't it be nice if this stuff were enapsulated through something like COM? DirectX has 7 very different versions, yet I only have one library, because incompatiblilites can be addressed at a very granular level. (IE. If only a few functions are different, but renders the entire library incompatible, through COM, you can reimplment only those functions in a new interface, and transparently call the old ones.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Is the most difficult part of using and enjoying linux/GNU software.
;D
All these alphas, betas, snapshots, etc make the stable versions of software look increasingly more like stale versions than anything else.
You know it doesn't work properly, you know it will crash, you know some features are missing, you know you will need to refurbish half your system to sort dependencies... You know all that and still you use it and can't wait for the next unstable/beta whatever to come out and see what has changed.
It's life on the fast lane... Well, sort of anyway
Well done KDE team! (Must... resist... download...)
Blasphemy! You're not a real hacker are you? I like running the latest and the greatest (especially in the case of KDE 2, where it is faster than 1.x). To tell the truth, I am guilty of living VERY bleeding edge. I'm running Mandrake 7.1, kernel 2.4-test, XFree86 4.0, nVidia BetaGL, and I'm dabbling with KDE 2-beta1.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Go Gfuck Gof, Gnome Gdoes Git Gto.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Fool. Either way, it means nothing if you aren't familiar with the program. Take xfm. X Friggin' Media? X Floppy Mangler? Xenophobic fruity man? Or pam, Pretty Anoying mercenary, probably angry mutent, possibly attacking molars? Or how about xmms. Xtremely mobile mutent snails? Xtremely mad magic sicophants? The point is that xfm means just as little as Konqueror, but Konqueror sounds nicer.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
True. I never much liked linux naming conventions, which tended to favor arbitrary sounding acronyms over attractive names. For example, WinAmp vs. xmms, or Windows Explorer vs. kfm. I'm glad to see KDE at least moving towards names like Konqueror rather than kwb or some such. Plus, with competing widget sets, it's convenient to know right off the bat which goes with what.
No need, just --force installation. /opt/kde2, the only "conflicting" files are config stuff.
The beta packages go to
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Sure - it's running on Red Hat Linux after all. ;) ;)
Oh, and besides the line is so bad that even all the traffic it can stand won't kill the server.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Red Hat Linux (tested on 6.2) packages for beta 2
for x86, alpha and sparc are now available at http://www.bero.org/kde/.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Desktop inegration GOOD. Desktop dependance BAD. Me want solution.
Thad
Thad
Well that's your choice, but that doesn't mean the system is broken. You can have multiple versions of libraries on your system for the very reason you mentioned, so you don't break old apps.
RPM lets you have multiple versions of libraries on your system, although it does not allow multiple *devel* RPMS for the most part. If you want to upgrade, just rpm -e the old devel headers and the apps that are being upgraded (leaving the libraries that old apps you're keeping depend on), and then rpm --install <new libraries> [that's install, not -U or --upgrade] and all should be fine.
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
Those people who have had their GPLd code used in KDE have already been notified. None of them have yet protested. But even this is a non-issue. The GPL operates under copyright law, and not contract law. It cannot take away legal rights that the user already possesses. And since copyright law is completely silent on references, dynamic linkage to and from the GPL is permitted.
Maybe GPLv3 will remove that clause about copyright law and it will become a contract like the EULA, but for now it's legal to reference non-GPLd libraries and incorporate their interfaces in the binary.
"...the ONLY real solution to this mess is for the Trolls to release Qt under the GPL
Yes, it would solve the problem, but it is not the Trolls problem. You don't demand that a third party correct the actions of a first party. They weren't the ones writing or using GPLd code.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
The QPL is perfectly sensible for making modifications. It only makes forking difficult.
:-)
I mean, come on! You would actually submit a Qt bug fix as a 2Meg tarball of the complete sources instead of a 100Byte patch? I bet the gtk people just love your submissions
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
You know, that post you're responding to just MIGHT have been humor... apparently four moderators thought that way, at least.
--
No more e-mail address game - see my user info. Time for revenge.
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
Ulitmatly, these enviroments will help convert a lot of people. Some of them will stay there, but the ones who want to learn more about their computers will move on to other things. Not to say that GNOME isn't an advance UI. It is a very good setup, and I use it third most often after E and TWM. You can be an advanced user and use GNOME. But many will move on to something more flexible. E's menus are certainly easier to customize.
it's green.
jbarnett wanted to know:
Seriously though, this isn't meant as a flame, but why do you *HAVE* to upgrade *RIGHT NOW*? If KDE (whatever version you are using) works for you, why not stick with it? Wait till KDE 2.0 gets tested and debugged by more users, and wait till you almost have to upgrade. (this advice is only toward desktops, other software may differ)
Just a wild guess here, but -- maybe to test the silly thing? Remember, this is open-source software. We don't pay for it in cash, and not everyone can add code, but we can all add eyeball time. Which is the coin of the open-source world.
You do intend to pay your dues, don't you?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
j/k
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
4
You trolling skills are very rough and need to be honed. You lose major points by falling into the trap of many new trollers, you are way too obvious. Lets do some in depth analysis on your troll:
Wow. Yet another program whose job it is to devour my entire screen so I can run half-baked programs that duplicate everything I already have. No thanks
You troll entry point here is all wrong. If you start your troll routine on an agressive it sets off a red flag for the judges.I realize your adrenaline is runnig high but you need to start off a little slower to be an effictive troll
Give me a break. KDE and GNOME are worthless. I can run any program I want without a huge "panel", without a start button, and without a bloated gui. The insistence of the KDE and GNOME teams upon you only using their software is sickining. Why shouldn't I use software that hasn't been "blessed" by KDE with a spot on the K menu, or on the panel?
Okay now your deep into your troll here but your form is all wrong. Instead of going with the angry self-rightous tone maybe you should try the "I'm a confused newbie" tone, or my favorite, the "I'm a seasoned computer proffesional" tone. The angry troll rarely works well
Thanks, but I think I'll stick to xterm. It has a better interface anyway
Your troll dismount is sloppy and not well thought out. You really need a lot of work here.
Troll summary: Score 4 out of 10
We use standard CORBA profiles, so yes, we can talk to other ORBs, but we do it in a secure fashion.
The side effect you observe means that we wont trust anyone that wants to talk to us. Just those that have permission to talk to us.
Miguel.
You need a clue man.
The interface repository only describes interfaces, it can not discover dynamically interfaces.
Once you have an interface resolved, then you can look up its type definition.
Miguel.
I'm surprised your computer stayed up long enough for you to be able to finish typing that in.
I guess you're not running Netscape then.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
I'm starting to dislike all these "Krappy" names.
Anyone else feel the same way?
KDE is great, but, as somebody with a degree in advertising, I'd submit that too much of anything is always a bad thing.
________
1995: Microsoft - "Resistance is futile"
KDE 1.0 apps work with Qt-1.4x and KDE 2.0 apps work with Qt-2.1x. During linkage, each app *knows* which library it wants, so you only need two libraries. One for the old apps and one for the new.
I don't know who told you that you needed twenty different versions, but they're wrong.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Commercial licenses for closed source software (which uses the library) are how Troll Tech makes money. Not from derivations of the library.
:-)
>>>>>>
Qt is a class library. People use it be deriving from it. Under legal pressure, your QMyapp:public QApplication could be considered a derived work.
Wrong. A GPL'd library would cover all GPL'd uses. You'd still have to pay for an exception to the GPL (like Reserfs, as I mentioned) if you
wanted to develop a proprietary, closed source application and distribute it to someone else (internal apps could probably get away without
paying).
>>>>>>>
Doesn't the GPL say that you cannot charge for the right to use to code? Isn't it impossible for Linus to use the GPL, except when it involves Microsoft? Isn't the QPL essentially the GPL with that exception?
That would cause the very problem you were just arguing against! That *would* allow commercial proprietary software to be built on Qt without
paying the Trolls.
>>>>>>>>>
I'm pretty sure that LGPL is there for a reason. If the libraries were GPL'ed, then anything linking to them would would automatically become GPL. Hence to problem I mention lower. So if GPL won't work, and LGPL won't work, what's the problem with QPL?
>GPL'd QT would suck, since that would mean ALL
Qt apps would have to be GPL'd.
OK, I'll grant that. Simple solution: Make Qt Free Edition dual licensed by the GPL *and* QPL. That would keep the BSD *and* GPL folks happy.
And still charge for the commercial version. What more could you want?
>>>>>>>>>>
How 'bout it stays the way it is and the GPL folk shut up? They are the ones using QPL code inside GPL code. How, in anyway, does it involved the TrollTech people? Shouldn't KDE change its license to somethign other than the GPL?
Heh, not a bad idea. The GPL is, after all, the only good software license.
>>>>>
I prefer BSD, but license wars are stupid. It should the entirely the author's choice, and all people who complain are just bitching.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
GNOME and KDE are intended for Windows users just making the switch.
Wrongo! The purpose of GNOME and KDE is to provide a desktop for X. You might not need or want a desktop, but that's no call to denigrate everyone who does. GNOME and KDE are attempting something never before achieved in X or Unix, and that is consistancy. Just because Windows and Mac also attempts this does not mean that consistancy is wrong.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Oh I see, my mistake. I had thought that GPL required the code made availbe for free or cost of media.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Plus, you can keep all your libraries by using:
rpm -ivh qtxxx.rpm
instead of
rpm -Uvh qtxxx.rpm
The first one just installs the libraries, the second will upgrade. Upgrading meaning get rid of the old versions, install just installs.
And the source is available, so it's kind of had for it to be proprietary, even if it's not quite the right way according to the OMG. There's no reason why it couldn't exist peacefully alongside something else, too.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Regards, Tommy
khtml is still a bit buggy on some pages, but we expect to get that fixed until the release of KDE2. As long as you don't need too much javascript it is already very useable and many people are using konqueror as their main browser.
Lars
I am slightly pissed that they reffered to KParts as an object model. An object model is something along the lines of COM and SOM, and simply define a method for easily upgradable, shared objects. When he refers to the fact that KParts handles stuff like where toolbars should go, he gets it wrong. An object model does not handle those thins, that is the work of a embedding system (don't know the jargon for it), along the lines of OLE or OpenDOC. In these cases, OLE and OpenDOC are the embedding system, and they use the object model (COM and SOM respectivaly) to facilitate the embedding.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...