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Linux Supported DVD-RW Coming Soon
Obiwan Kenobi (you're our only hope!) writes: "This article located at Business Wire tells about how the second generation Panasonic DVD-RW's are going to be supported in Unix and Linux by Tracer Technologies software." 9.4 gigs baby, yeah!
Sounds like a great idea, porting over something this nice for linux/unix. But like I've already seen, my question would be, when can it actually be expected, and just how well supported will it really be? If it's really supported, or just works like it supposed to, then his would be a great utility for backing up mail servers, or nfs servers or any signle purpose style servers.
However, the ability to use it as a source of making DVD movies under linux would be nice a well. I'm not up to speed if there is really anything out there for linux that allows you to make DVD movies.
All in all, it still seems like a bit of vapor hides this ware. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.
Trying to be different, just like everyone else.
Um... Dickens? The book is 1984, by George Orwell (a pseudonym -- his real name was Eric Blair, according to this biography). Emmanuel Goldstein was Public Enemy #1, the focus of the daily mandatory "three-minute hate", and (not incidentally) a complete and utter fiction, a creation of the "Ministry of Truth", the propaganda department of the government.
As for the "Emmanuel Goldstein" of 2600 fame, I'm afraid I don't know his real name off hand either...
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The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
I imagine that many copies of DeCSS will be deleted voluntary if the court so orders.
Well, except for one anyways. There is a copy of the DeCSS code actually entered into the court record (some idiot lawyer for MPAA made this mistake). That is a public document and is not going to go anywhere soon. I can go dredge up court records from the 19th century if I was so inclined. DeCSS has, in essence, been immortalized by the very people that were moving to kill it. At any rate, it's time to shift your frame of mind. Previously (pre-Internet, that is) you would be right - just because it was out there doesn't mean they can't legislate against it. Now, though, you're wrong. The Internet is making legislation a moot point for many things that the government held a tight legal grip on for years: gambling, encryption, copyrights, and, yes, fair use, just to name a few.
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I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
As long as your main bus is fast enough and you have memory, you could always buffer a *whole* lot of data and be fine, but that's not a very pretty solution.
Plextor now has cd writers (and I assume rw) which stop writing when they hit about 10% of their buffer and can go back and start back form where they stopped within spec limits. Very cool.
I partly agree. In my past experience, the people stealing things like long-distance or satellite tv were mainly adventureres who just got off on puttin' to 'the man.' They're weren't much of a threat to the bottom line of the companys involved, because their methods were too complicated and too much trouble for the average person. Services like Napster, however, have started making it much easier and have lowered the barriers for the masses. As I see it, the only real barrier that remains for pirated movies is the bandwidth needed to transfer them. I think that most people won't knowingly buy a pirate DVD. For whatever reason, that seems much more 'wrong' than getting it thru a Napster.
WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
I am quite civilized, and I should be brought a beer immediately. -- Bruce Sterling
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I meant the issue was dead and buried. DeCSS is still very much alive, friend. All of the code segments I have seen make it painfully obvious how to implement them. Any half-assed C programmer can look at a function called "void css_descramble(byte *, byte *)" and know what to do with it.
Also, there is a very well documented and exquisitely commented, GPLd library called css-auth that takes care of all descrambling needs.
I don't see any evidence of balkanization here. I see multiple implementations of the same code, but that's no more "balkanized" than Linux having 15 different IRC clients, etc. Everyone wants to do it their own way. So what.
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I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
I agree with your comment, but your math is *WAY* off :-). Using your numbers, here's what I get:
DVD - $19 for 5.2GB = $3.65/GBIDE - $238 for 60GB = $3.97/GB
CDR - $38 for 64GB = $0.59/GB
Of course, that ignores drive costs for the removable media. It also assumes that ~60 GB of data online with an IDE drive is comperable to 60 GB of data offline on a bunch of CD-R or DVD-RAM discs. It usually isn't. IMHO, the best mix for cost-sensitive users is probably a big IDE drive or two and a couple boxes of CDs for storing things that you don't need access to more then once or twice per month.
On the surface, this looks like the perfect backup tool - lots of storage space, and nice and easy to access and store, unlike tapes which have done nasty things to me in the past.
But are there nasties about using this for backup? Any projected lifespans for these tools? Are there content encryption restrictions as well - could we encrypt our own movies to be played in a normal DVD player? Make a movie of that Quake FragFest for exmple?
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Win2000 doesn't include UDF support, but you can download a free UDF driver from Adaptec (http://www.adaptec.com/support/advisor/cdrupdates /udfreaders.html).
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Let's see ... (calculate) ... wow, that's nearly an entire week of MP3 files, 24 hours a day!
Currently the DVD-RW media's costs a LOT - something like 50$ and more. An avrage DVD movie will cost you something like 20-30$ (depends where you look)...
So whats the point or piracy with those crazy prices?
Hetz (Heunique)
I don't know how you came up with those numbers, man. Remedial math for you!
Generic 12x CDR 100pack
$40/65G = $0.62/G
TDK 12x certified w/warranty 100pack
$82/65G = $1.26/G
Hotan 5.2G rewriteable dvd-ram
$19/5.2G = $3.65/G
Maxtor 61G 9614U8 DiamondMax 5400rpm EIDE
$238/61G = $3.90/G
Ryan
I see nothing in the article statin that it's RW, only R...
I know several people who ahve DVD RAM's already.. they are not like CD-RW's, they are more like an optical disk... that is, the media itself is enclosed in a protective plasic case while it is being read / written. There is no way I can see playing this in a normal player, shot of removing the housing.. which would either make it impossible to write to ever again or make it totally useless.
Yes, linux can read DVDs. the only problem is that no one lisceneced a DVD _player_ which explains DeCSS. Linux nerds needed a way to PLAY dvd movies, so they wrote DeCSS to rip DVD to MPEG and watch it. That requires you to be able to read the DVD in the first place.
but i could still have fun with a few data DVDs. wow, imagine the number of MP3s......ah....
-Superb0wl
-Superb0wl
It's not that I'm lazy....it's that I just don't care.
I'm not trying to be flippant, but who really gives a fuck? DeCSS is dead and buried as far as I'm concerned. Everyone either has a copy on their hard drive or can snag one from somewhere. Even in a worst case scenario you can pull one of 100 or so copies from FreeNet, and those will never, ever go away, can't be legislated out of existence, can't even be traced. So as far as the "case" goes, so what? It doesn't exactly have any bearing on anything right now, other than symbolic value.
Also, DVD-RAM discs won't play in a retail DVD player. Period.
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I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Not that it would have been any value in the reconciliation; slide rules generally are of no value in establishing anything about the order of magnitude, as that is the first thing you remove from the value before doing any multiplication.
If you're going to criticize about calculations, keep your errors straight...
Of course, the one incorrect number does nothing to establish that any of the other contentions are incorrect...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Currently the DVD-RW media's costs a LOT...
Yes, currently. Are you assuming the prices can't fall?
Be nice to your friends. If it weren't for them, you'd be a complete stranger.
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Maybe not Zimbabwe. Try Serbia.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Yes! That is what the UDF filesystem is all about. Note when I said above about just putting a line in the /etc/fstab file. It's just like another mounted partition.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
This is incorrect. DeCSS is a WINDOWS PROGRAM to descramble and copy the files from a DVD to the hard drive. Once it's on the drive then it can be played back by just about anything (including linux, SCO, Solaris, etc.)
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This is correct. DeCSS was written before the UDF filesystem existed for Linux. It was used in conjunction with WINE/Windows, to get access to a decrypted VOB file so that work on the Linux DVD player software could continue, and not be held up by the lack of native UDF support.
DeCSS was never intended, nor ever used, to pirate DVDs. The MPAA has even admitted as much - their argument is that it violates the DMCA because it gets around their encryption, and the innocence of the software's purpose and use is irrelevant. The MPAA will certainly win this round, with a corrupt judge presiding over the case despite numerous conflicts of interest, and they might possibly win the appeal as well (based on how the law is written). Of course, we're all hoping the appeals process overturns that portion of the law, but who can tell? The only forgone conclusion is that they will lose the current trial, primarilly because of a corrupt and ethically bankrupt judge.
Now Linux supports UDF just fine, and the linux version of DeCSS, css-auth, allows Linux users to decrypt and watch their DVDs. The players are maturing rapidly as well (if you've got a dual P3/600 they are arguably already there).
See the LiViD mailing list for more info
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Unless, of course, you like feeling like a Sparq drive owner... (remember those?)
I've been people talking about DVD-RAM in this thread who've never seen a drive nor the media (so I explain it below). Also, there is this "mis-nomer" that Windows actually has built-in writable UDF support -- NOT!!!
The DVD-RAM drive loading mechanism is quite ingenous as it supports both cartridge and plain disc! It has a spring-loaded tabs on the ends with slits so plain disc media (like single-sided DVD-RAM disks) slide in much like a slot CD/DVD drive (although much more nicely), and the tabs move back when the cartridges are used. BTW, the cartridge format is mechanically exact to the old CD caddy form-factor, but it is keyed so you cannot use a caddy (only half of my old CD caddy from my Plextor 6Plex will insert before the key hits).
This "unified media" tray only comes out about 1.5" (4cm) so it won't break off either (at least not easily), and it does an excellent job of autoclosing when you've "push the disc/cartridge in enough" (a very nice touch that still works after 18 months of hard use as my main CD drive as well). Personally, I'd like to see this type of mechanism adopted in all CD/DVD drives (at least in the standard 1U/half-heigh drives on desktops). You have to see this in action to appreciate the elegant design.
Not even Windows 98 SE has writable/re-writable UDF support, only read-only UDF support (and apparently limited at that?). You must use additional software from Software Architects to get UDF support in Windows 95/98, or use another program like Adaptec DirectCD to write directly to CD-RW drives (not sure if Adaptec supports DVD-RAM yet). This is an important consideration if you want to buy a DVD-RAM drive for use with Windows 9x, because SAI's UDF will cost you $79 if you buy the bare drive without it (whereas some kits like Creative's bundles SAI's UDF for Windows 9x). Also understand that SAI sells Windows 9x drivers separate from the Windows NT/2000, so it'll cost you double for both Windows 9x and NT/2000 support ($79/each). Makes you appreciate Ben's open source UDF driver for Linux even more! ;->
BTW, I have heard that Windows 2000 does not even have read-only UDF support so it will NOT read regular DVD-ROM data disks? (someone please confirm?)
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
Only those copies that reside in the US. Unless the MPAA can get a judgment in all the other countries where DeCSS is hosted as well.
Librarians looking to do a fair use compilation won't dare use DeCSS-based decoding software.
Only those that have no spine.
The philosophy aside, the law does greatly impact things and should not be treated so lightly; we should be working within the system rather than ignoring it.
It's hard to take US law seriously when the judges themselves don't treat it with due respect.
Say no to software patents.
So I heard about these DVD RW devices, and they're supposed to have an chip on-board that prevents the writing of MP3s, VCDs, DVDs, and anything else the MPAA and RIAA don't like.
Or something.
Did you really mean to say that DeCSS has never been used to pirate DVDs?
According to the testimony of the Motion Picture Association of America in the ongoing DeCSS trial in New York, they cannot cite a single instance of DeCSS being used to violate DVD copyright.
I think it rather doubtful that this is due to lack of exhaustive searching for an instance, as they really do need a concrete example if they are to survive the appeal.
In a world of 6.5 billion people there may have been some guy, somewhere, who opted to decrypt and copy a $15 movie onto $25 media as a novelty. This hypothetical person might even have gone so far as to copy a movie they didn't own, which would make such an act an actual copyright violation (as opposed to the legal, fair use of copying one's own movie). However, the best, very well financed and highly motivated efforts of the MPAA have failed to produce even one example of such behavior.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
1. First of all, to write an actual DVD Video Disc you'd need an MPEG-2 encoder and some kind of converter (like Adaptec's Video Toast or whatever it's called) to store that MPEG-2 in the correct format which I forget at the moment. Now I suppose with one of the DeCSS code hacks you COULD write a linux programme to do the MPEG-2 to DVD-MPEG-2 yourself, but given all the legal battles, I don't know how safe it would be, May be an interesting GNU/OS project though. Anyway, EVEN if you did this, the media format itself is not the same so some firmware changes WOULD be necessary for your Discs to play back on your settop device, though not as much as for the DVD-RAM. If your player is made by Sony or Philips or one of the other DVD+RW proponents, I would suspect they would update the frimware for free at your local dealer just to make up for the lost ground in Market Share they have lost to DVD-RAM (rumours say that they are planning to do just this).
:) Seriously, what has happened is the DVD-Consortium had four proposals for writable DVD. The first as Pioneer's DVD-R. This was followed by proposals from Panisonic/Toshiba for DVD-RAM and by Sony/Philips/HP for DVD+RW. Finally, seeing the need for a rewritable format, Pioneer came up with the DVD-RW extension to DVD-R. The reason for the split is pretty obvious: they players just couldn't agree. Thus, rather than letting the bickering over details continue, the consortium decided to approve ALL FOUR formats for writable DVD. So Technically, DVD-RAM IS a true Writable DVD Format, even if it isn't backwards-compatable with legacy equipment. Since all four are officially sanctioned, it is clear the companies involved wish to let the market decide, as they did with Beta and VHS. I seems clear to me if the DVD+RW camp can get their act together and actually come out with product they have a distinct advantage over all other products. OTOH, if DVD-RAM can evolve into a Caddy-less system (against the "users are stupid" viewpoint of the DVD-RAM proponents) and they can provide the same ease of firmware upgrade to players, it would almost certainly lead to the early grave of DVD+RW. After all, DVD-RAM has been on the market for a while now, it's hard to beat that product base.
:)
2. I suspect the Justice Department should be seriously looking into HP's claims last year of releasing the i3100 or whatever it was called which they claimed was the worlds first DVD+RW player, but has yet to appear on anybody's shelves. In fact, the story of DVD+RW is the story of 6 months from now. I have heard so many times from the industry the mantra of 'next quarter' that I have ceased to believe it. Recently, Sony announced their own DVD+RW player but that to may be another case of Vapourware.
3. I beleive the DVD consortium will allow you to have access to the spec for a SMALL (read, likely a few thousands of dollars) fee.
4. The DVD+RW folks plan to target the same market so current estimates of DVD+RW media are on par with DVD-RAM, $20 or so for Single Sided, $50 or so for Double Sided.
5. Initially they hope to have writing at DVD 1x, again similar to RAM. Down the road higher speeds may be possible but it is unlikely to go much higher for at least a year or 2 after initial release.
6. Well, Mr. Jackson, you need not fear folks pirating your new film when it comes out on optical disc, let me re-assure you.
Be Seeing You,
Jeffrey.
P.S. Grrrr. Overrated my #$%.
Time Lord, Dark Horse: The Techno Mage of Gallifrey
The real name of 2600's "Emmanuel Goldstein" is Eric Corley.
-----
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
I'm using a DVD-RAM drive on my MAC here, and it is unbearably slow. I thought tape backup to the DLT was slow, Thats nothing! It burns at about the speed of a 2x cd burner, but with 2.3 gigs per side. You can speed it up by turning off verification, but then what good would it do as a backup device?
Check it out _Before_ you buy, Linux support or no.
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Vices - what I lack in originality, I make up for in volume.
When I clicked the link I got "Your browser sent a message this server could not understand." Erase the space between "tic" and "ker" near the end and try again.
Please tell us that you purchased The Matrix, else the goons in the DeCSS trial that are being asked if they personally know of a case where someone copied a DVD that they didn't purchase may point to you... :(
[ Please moderate this up because I am using it right now on Linux, and have been for almost 6 months! ]
I have been using my Panasonic/Creative DVD-RAM drive for almost 6 months now under Linux (and have had the drive for ~18 months). RedHat kernels since 2.2.12 have detected it and installed a SCSI generic disk driver (as /dev/sda since I have IDE drives). The reason why DVD-RAM was supported so quickly in Linux is because much of the firmware is similar to the old Panasonic PD drives (remember, rewritable CD before CD-RW? ;-).
Ext2 works fine on it if you decide to format it. Otherwise, a simple download and compile of Ben Fennema's UDF driver (no complicated kernel patch necessary, just ./config, make, make install installs the VFS module necessary) and you're cooking with an OS independent filesystem on media that lasts 30+ years! 2.6GB per side (with newer 4.7GB drives/media as the above pointed out). Again, it's simple. Just put the "/dev/sda" line in your /etc/fstab as normal with "udf" as the filesystem (assuming you've done the above). I assume you can do similar with CD-RW drives and the UDF driver as well (SCSI CD-RW drives at least).
For those of you not familiar with rewritable DVD, there are various formats. DVD-RAM was supposed to be the "standard." Of course that didn't stop Sony, Philips and others from breaking away from Panasonic, Creative, Matsushita, Pioneer and others to create their own, proprietary standards. The reason I choose DVD-RAM is because unlike most other DVD drives (most of the DVD-ROM drives of the time, fall 1998) is because they had trouble reading CD-RW media, and even some 2nd generation drives had trouble reading CD-R media (DVD-RAM reads all media: CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW and CD-various formats). But understand that no rewritable DVD-RAM I know of allows you to burn DVD-R, nor even CD-R/RW (although it was rumored that Philips had a proprietary 3/6GB DVD-rewritable that could also CD burn/re-write as well? But I never saw it myself). Another reason why I went with DVD-RAM is because some 2nd and most 3rd generation DVD-ROM drives could read it physically (at least the non-cartridge, single-sided version) and non-Panasonic/Creative/Matsushuita/Pioneer drives only needed a firmware upgrade to do so. And DVD-RAM is rewritable at 1,350KBps (1x DVD, 9x CD) whereas many CD-RW (and even some other DVD-rewritable formats) are a measly 300-600KBps (2/4x CD).
Anyhoo, while other vendors talk about rewritable DVD sizes and capabilities, Panasonic delivered a long time ago. And now they are boosting the size to 4.7GB/side with the possibility of CD-RW compatibilty. You can get Panasonic 5.2GB DVD-RAM drives for $200-250 nowdays (and I only paid $500 for mine in fall of 1998), with the 2.6/5.2 single/double-sided media for $20/30, respectively. It's not hard disk speeds, but it is massive storage at cheap prices. With Pioneer and others finally giving Panasonic/DVD-RAM a boost in portable video equipment within the last 12 months, I'd say DVD-RAM will become the standard that it was originally spec'ed to be. With a 30+ year shelf life, it's a great archiving format for 10+ years where magnetic tape is not. And unlike other optical formats, DVD-RAM is an open standard which means that future drives should be able to read it -- a very important factor when considering long-term archiving because who cares if it lasts if you won't have a drive that can read it!
DVD-RAM is great for video editing systems, for which, I bought my DVD-RAM drive to complement my brand new Matrox Marvel G200-TV at the time. Again, much, much cheaper than magnetic disks per MB/GB.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
You can buy double sided DVD rewritables for $19.
-- Virtual Windows Project
Consider the price per Gig (from pricewatch.com)
DVD - 5.2G/$19 = 27 cents (1 DVD)
IDE - 61G/$238 = 26 cents (1 61G drive)
CDR - 6.4G/$38 = 16 cents (100 cds)
If you want the cheapest go with CDROM, but you've got to swap out 100 cds. I do this for small backups (640MB). DVD just losses when you compare to IDE, it's more expensive (I didn't count the drive either!) and it's a lot less convenient. Plus with CDs/DVDs you waste a good deal of space because you will almost never fill a disk up to it's full potentional.
-- Virtual Windows Project
It seems the article and the /. summary may be a bit confused here about DVD standards and formats. In fact, there are 4 DVD formatting types and they should not be confused:
DVD-R developed by Pioneer sells for about $16,000 and produces near-perfect DVDs compatible with 95%+ of the current DVD players out there. I am unclear whether this can only write 9.4 GB HD/DS Discs or also supports DD/DS 17 GB discs as well. Lord knows my DVD-ROM drive doesn't so I can't imagine who would be using those mega Double-Density Discs.
DVD-RAM developed by Panisonic, Toshiba used to store 2.6 GB (LD/SS) and 5.2 GB (LD/DS) but the article is now reporting the development of middle-tier DVD-RAM discs of 4.7 GB (HD/SS) and 9.4 GB (HD/DS) by Panisonic. These discs use a Magneto-Optical system similar to the PD devices of old, not a pure optical system like DVD-ROM. Thus, compatibility would require a major firmware change in all DVD players to support the cartrages. Also note that the DVD-RAM drives are Cartrage-based and the 5.2 GB discs at least cannot be removed from their casing, or at least so I've read. Remember those bloody caddies you had to use for CDs way back when? Well it seems Panisonic and Toshiba liked them so much they wouldn't let them die. They walked out of the DVD consortium for development of writable DVD and came to market with the YEARS before the other players. MSR (as in the article) is about $500 - $600.
DVD-RW developed by Pioneer is the logical follow up to their DVD-R technology and follows exactly analagous to the difference between CD-R and CD-RW. Although it is not clear whether current drives would support this format, it is the most similar of the rewritables to current hardware and the easiest to upgrade Firmware for. Status unknown, MSR expected to be $2000 - $6000.
DVD+RW developed by Philips, Sony [VAPOURWARE!?!!] is another optical disc which does not require a caddy. The first generation should have something like 3.7 GB LD/SS discs, but they expect to have 4.7 GM discs a year after launch. However, they have been saying this for almost 2 years and still I have seen no firm product schedule. I am in fact dubious as to whether these guys can get their act together and put the DVD+RW out. On the plus side [no pun intended], as the DVD+RW discs are optical, it is likely only a minor firmware change would be required to make them compatible with current DVD players. MSR is suggested at $500 - $600 and they are intended to compete directly for the DVD-RAM market.
There used to be a great page explaining all this stuff in great detail, but it's gone so perhaps I should write a new one...
Be Seeing You,
Jeffrey.
Time Lord, Dark Horse: The Techno Mage of Gallifrey
Something like this could support the claim about how Decss could be used for piracy. I could be wrong but this might hurt the case. A little the price of the DVD-RAM is still hi though. You never know what lawyes will pull.
Who talked about Zimbabwe? There are other countries besides the US and Zimbabwe: Austria, the Christmas Islands, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Israrel, Italy, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, Nieu, Norway, Poland, Russia, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, Tonga, The United Kingdom, just to name a few
you can't deny that the US is a significant portion of the west.
However, lately, Europe has rediscovered its self esteem, and doesn't hesitate to occasionnally give the finger to the US (see recent Echelon investigation, and some recent crypto decisions).
Say no to software patents.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
In contrast, CD technology is a goodly dozen years old, and CD-Rs represent the "couple generations old" technology, which is now downright cheap. I can pick up 64GB of CD-R's for around $40, which makes for a price of about $0.06/GB. (Of course, that's the "premium quality!" CompUSA ones...)
Give writable DVD's another year or so, and the price is likely to drop precipitously.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Linux has DVD support. I am working with the cdrom driver right now and there are a bunch of new DVD function calls for 2.2.16 and greater... I am having trouble with the cd-changer support however which is why I am doing this