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Pre-KDE 2.0 Progress Report
Matthias Kalle Dalheimer writes: "Hi,
just wanted to let you know that there is a progress report about the achievements made at the last KDE developer meeting in Trysil, Norway, at KDE.org "
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Perhaps applets in a sandbox have a higher Memory and/or CPU consumption? Or less possibilities at all.
All I can say is they are certainly addressing the issues about Unix sucking. This is some fantastic news and will help to make linux a real desktop solution.
Now if I can get KDE to turn off the upper "task bar" I may actually use it all the time.
I like KDE but it takes a lot of screen "real estate"
Dave
I think the screenshots look quite nice (though I hate the file browser that has the directories and files in the same window -- iarchitect has an excellent explanation in their criticism of Windows Explorer as to why this is a bad design), and the features look compelling.
And yet, there are still quite a few people who absolutely loathe and detest KDE. Those of you who hate KDE, could you share for us why? I'm not doubting that you have compelling reasons; I'm instead looking for some valid criticisms of KDE instead of the tired and lame "KDE looks like Windows."
For the record, I use GNOME.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Beta 3 isn't quite ready yet. It is tagged in the CVS, but we have moved the tag a few times to include fixes for problems we considered serious. It will probably be a few days before it is actually released. There are some test tar balls around, but these may not correspond to the actual beta as some or all of these last few bug fixes are probably missing. Please be patient, it won't be long and I think you'll find it worth the wait.
After reading the status report on Gnome Office here on /. yesterday, I'm actually surprised to see this here today! So what happened? Did the KDE see the Gnome article and decide to retaliate (in a nice way) with their own good news?
Seriously, though, the new KDE looks much better than previous (1.x) versions. I think most of the comments above have already summed up some of the better features and some of the shortcomings. I may still end up not liking KDE when I actually try it, but I'm sure as going to give it a good look (and give my adsl line something to do for a while)!
It's only software!
Expert users? We don't need to support them, they'll figure out the most arcane syntax and munge through various config files until they get the box to work no matter what. (They use Linux now, don't they?)
The intermediate user, aka my brother, is key. My brother, until recently, had never had the cover off his computer. Did I hesitate in telling him to rip that cover off and stick in a NIC to build a little home network? Not for a minute. I could help him get it configured over the phone. That is, if he needs my help at all.
OTOH, would I even think about telling him to do that with a Linux box? Again, not for a minute. (Please don't bother to tell me how easy it really is to install a NIC. Sure, if everything goes right. But there are more potential points of failure and a lack of good feedback on the failure(s). I couldn't troubleshoot it over the phone, so I just wouldn't do it.)
The experts need intermediates who can follow what they've discovered, and the beginners need intermediates who can swap a NIC or add a SIMM. On the whole, the GUI seems one of the least problematic areas of Linux -- its more the Gnome vs. KDE wars that stimulate effort than any real need on users parts.
What's a sig?
I love the non-skid title bars. Now I can use KDE in the shower without fear of slipping. Now if I could just waterproof my keyboard...
OOhh I'll give you such a pinch!
The most sensible thing in the article by far is the minimum font size in the web browser ! All web browsers should have this. Tiny fonts suck!
,in my opinion is butt ugly. The icons they show in the filebrowser are really nice looking, crisp with good colours and still identifiable.Colorful but not garish. The same for the toolbar icons. The overall color schemes cried "Aqua" to this observer.
Looks like they've paid some attention to the look of things this time. An improvement to be sure, as KDE1.x
Kudos to all these guys for putting all the work in to continually improve their offerings. I don't really go much for the Linux desktop environment thing, but I know plenty of people who wouldn't think of using a computer without one. The KDE and GNOME teams are doing a really important job
But having mentioned toolbars, the spreadsheet screenshot was ludicrous ! Half the real estate seemed to be taken up by icons and toolbar widgets ! I assume these can be turned off.(GNOME suffers far too much from chunky button syndrome as well). Toolbar buttons are fine for quick shortcuts guys, but they take away space from the application itself.
Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich, Malkovich.
hmmm Might be.. Kinda depends on how it's all done :) I donnow.. I'm all for the "less mem/cpu consumption". Like I said in a previous (redundant) post, gnome/kde use too much resources if you ask me. I got 64mb and I always thought that was plenty, but when I started running gnome/kde/win2k it just broke down like a madman... I would like to see a new IMPROVED version that uses LESS cpu/mem. now THAT"s a new version, not all those stupid kiddie-improvements of nice and shiny buttons and all.
Where did you get this information? KDE has an integrated file manager/web browser. I have GNOME and find it ridiculously bulky for the very little it does for me.
KDE is indeed bulky and slower than a straight window manager. Both KDE and GNOME are resource hungry but you pay a price for ease of use and quite frankly I have always KDE easier to use.
GNOME is even more difficult to install. I don't know anyone who has figured out what to download to get it working and the only "easy install tool" means you have to foolishly trust an online shell script via "lynx -source" and run it as root.
No thank you! Until good instructions on what needs to be downloaded and what is extra are released I will stick with KDE.
Dave
The report focus on a lot of smaller details which have been improved, such as the minimum font size in the browser etc.
Gawd, I gotta agree there; I found myself trying to read some stuff on C|Net's Gamecenter on an archaic 14" monitor @640x480. Even at that, the text was so small (KDE 1.1, Netscape 4.7) as to nearly be unreadable! Talk about eyestrain...
Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
Well finally people in the Linux world seem to be paying attention to what the "real world" wants from a computer rather than what the open source community does, and this can only be a good thing for everyone involved in Linux. By creating a UI that looks almost as slick as Windows 2000, and without the $$$ spent on UI R&D, the KDE team are making a step foward for Linux's penetration into the non-tech-savvy market.
Whilst I appreciate that the GNOME team are also doing a good job of copying the whole Windows "look and feel", I have to say that what Linux needs is more distinction between its GUI and the Windows GUI, not less. Sure, it should be roughly equivalent to aid in user migration from MS to Linux, but it also needs to be distinctive to aid in brand recognition, and KDE has acheived this.
As a top professional consultant I've worked with a lot of startups in the last few years, and the one thing that is of crucial importance in a market dominated by existing players is a distinctive brand that clearly differentiates the product in the eyes of its customers, whether or not the product is any different! Linux has been moving in this direction with its whole penguin theme, and I think that KDE should become the standard desktop in order to facilitate a distinctive brand and consumer recognition.
As long as there is more than one desktop available a lot of the less tech-savvy out there are going to be confused about what exactly Linux is - I've had people ask whether Red Hat or Mandrake was the better operating system - which means they'll be more likely to stick with Windows, which has a very well realised brand. In order for Linux to succeed, it needs to drop all of the proliferation of choices and focus on a single, distinctive brand image.
---
Jon E. Erikson
Jon Erikson, IT guru
I had tried a beta of KDE 2.0 this earlier summer, and aside from the expected frequent crashes, what's not too love!?! They dealt with my biggest pet peeve of linux desktops -- when my family clicks on an icon, if they don't get an instant response, they click again, and again (a lot of win-d'oh-s users have this impatience). From KDE -- "If the click launches an application, a button appears in the desktop task bar immediately. If the application takes time to start up, you at least know that it is on its way. These features also apply to the rest of KDE, for consistency."
Webmaster, City of Saint Paul
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -- "Step Right Up", Tom Waits
Open source should be about co-operation and mutual benefit of all parties and developers, not about getting into pissing matches over licenses and what not. RMS thinks that the GPL is the only open-source license there is, and if it's not GPL it might as well come from Microsoft. He has an ego the size of the Emacs source tarball, and it annoys me that he has the clout that he has ok bye.
loev,
Axel
mhm23x3, alt.fan.karl-malden.nose
>big
:)
Increase the resolution on your monitor, and these big icons get smaller. You can also change the size of the icons in the Control Panel.
>'simplified'
>'very distinct colours'
I hate complex icons, especially complex icons that become jarbled when I make them small. Simple, brightly colored (but not big) icons are ideal for my user interface. With this style, my Peripheral Vison & Brain can figure out what an icon represents without me having to stare at it for a few seconds.
I love syntax-color-highlighting in emacs for the same reason. My brain acts quickly to determine: "Ok, that's an <a href>, that's a function, the function acts on the href".
Efficient use of my brainspace
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Hey, computing should be FUN! The creative process is essentially childlike. I really prefer the new, childlike icons to the old ones and to photorealistic icons which have no art. However, I have always found the Kde icons very acceptable, even the older ones prior to the kde 1.12 "beautification" release. They have always had a nice clean look even though for some the older icons had too much of an industrial look.
The full effect can't be appreciated until you use the new icons with the sem-transparency or fade effects for mouse passovers, etc.
Secretaries and bosses may not be able to appreciate the subtlety of this, but thet can appreciate the simplicity of the icons which are also much easier to identify and distinguish one from the other. Very functional.
Icons on toolbars are just the right size. No huge, blocky icons on toolbars which mostly consist of padding that waste desktop real estate.
When will Gnome swallow its pride and learn a thing about design from Kde and respond to the numerous complaits from users about its huge, blocky spacewasting icons and toolbars? Another hint for Gnome - all toolbar icons should have menu equivalents and the toolbar should be removable, not just movable.
Not to let Kde off the hook completely after taking a dig at Gnome, the oppressive, uninspiring gear icon must go. Sure, it can be replaced by users, but temptation to associate the industrial gear with unpleasant historical baggage is just too great. Krupp Industries, for example, or a Swiss pharmecautical plant. Slave labor camps and much more. Industrialization of the Rhineland. Surely there are more inspiring symbols of European culture which remind one of the high points of German civilization rather than the low points. Something childlike. How about a nicely stylized representation of a flying dragon? The implied "action" of flight would also represent the same in executable files much more nicely than the awful gear which is like the machinery of war. A rocket might achieve the same effect of "action". Oops! Well, you get the idea.
Indeed. I was a Win95 power user and I found the move to KDE 1.1 painless. All the hot keys, shortcuts, menus, ... that I learned to use in Win95 were right there, no relearning required. Then I looked around and found lotsa added functionality like middle click for paste that I soon began using without thinking about it. The purists may gripe but I think the KDE team has taken a good GUI and made it great. Note: I distinguish the Win95 GUI--good; and the Win95 OS--sucks big time.
1000 SlashDot sigs
So why not fix this silly licensing issue once and for all, so that KDE's position and influence can be consolidated and Linux newbies don't have to be scared any more by aggressive GPL priests? It's the last thing holding KDE back, and there's nothing more aggrivating than watching an excellent product fizzle in the face of a stupid, minor, easily-fixable problem.
Yes, okay, so it means contacting every KDE code developer past and present and getting permission to add a line to the license. Yes, one or two code chunks probably won't make it because the author won't be found. Rewrite them! There won't be that many, and look how fast KDE development can work! It's time to stop the laziness and do it, boys and girls, before you take this thing past 2.0 and before it really hurts a great project.
Please? Pretty please? I'll buy you all free beer for a week. We all will, one by one. You can stay drunk for the rest of your life (*ahem* when not working on KDE) at no charge! Imagine!
Just fix it!
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Gee, how many errors can I see?
(1) Debian is not a puppet of RMS. For example, RMS has asked Debian not to consider the Artistic license a free license (because of its ambiguity.) Debian disagreed.
(2) RMS doesn't care about what licenses are considered open-source.
(3) RMS doesn't consider the GPL the only free licence. The QPL**, the BSD license, the Netscape Public License and several others are considered free by him and the FSF. Go look at www.gnu.org - they have a nice list there, with explanations.
(4) (IMO) RMS has earned his clout. People listen to him because they respect him, and because he has earned that respect. His opinions are usually well thought out, and clearly explained.
The most sensible thing in the article by far is the minimum font size in the web browser ! All web browsers should have this. Tiny fonts suck!
Can I hear an AMEN!
Dave
Is that Katie hot or what?
Find funky gifts
Who's that Dragon in the upper right hand corner there? Maybe someone could hook up her and the Mozilla mascot. I hear that guy is quite the loner.
And if you want to read about Trysil, you can do it here.
And did you know that WOW!, they are actually going to construct an 18 hole golf course in Trysil in the summer of 2000.
I wonder if the KDE 2 developers even were drinking alcohol here.
GNOME is even more difficult to install. I don't know anyone who has figured out what to download to get it working and the only "easy install tool" means you have to foolishly trust an online shell script via "lynx -source" and run it as root.
You obviously haven't tried the Helix GNOME Preview 2!
It is *very* easy to install and update - you should try it out! You will not be disappointed - I garantee!
You may want to check this mini-howto as well for more complete info on deuglyfying X, and more specifically Netscape...
;)
Can I get a +1 Informative now, too?
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
Not true. All technology is born in labs, not in kitchens. If you conquer the labs (and Linux is moving pretty fast in this direction), all new features (including new desktop ideas) will be yours eventually. All concepts eventually die, and even OLE will. And why won't the Linux desktop be next?
:)
>>>>>>
Huh? As far as I can see, all new technology these days seems to be coming from consumer technology. The whole reason the PC market exists is because of the PC's utility as a business machine. Increasingly, the PC market is also being driven by consumers. The technology itself is being driven by games, mainly. As for labs, I don't know of any major labratories which use Linux. However, I do know that there are more features to be found in consumer and business space than anywhere else. Looking for the most efficient interface? Dominate the business market. These people spend hours each day in front of a computer, and they're the ones who need the most efficient interface. Want the easiest interface? Dominate the newbie product market. Want the fastest 3D, dominate the games market, where the need to wring massive performance out of small budgets drives the market faster than even SGI's machines ever did. Want the best security, dominate the business market where people need transparent access to documents without other people getting access too. Almost none of the cool tech that has come out has come because of the needs of the labratory. These days, consumers drive the entire computing inudstry.
As for Linux users attitude - that's not Linux fault. Choose better friends for yourself
Same goes for your 10-years-old canned Linux myths ("no docs", "hard to install", "too many choices", etc., etc.) Believe me, every word you say here was said and proven false years ago. Please don't start this again.
>>>>>>>
No docs: Microsoft has beautifully done HTML help files that are easily searchable, include pictures to explain things, and cover each feature of an application. (The DirectX docs in particular are probably one of the finset examples of detailed API documentation I've seen) Linux has: README's.
Hard to Install: This problem is related to the to many choices problem. Unless you want Mandrake installing 1.4 gigs of stuff on your harddrive, you've got to custom install packages. Then, you've got to wade through multiple redundant packages. "What the hell is the difference between gcc and egcs?" "why the hell to I need the C shell, I never USE the C shell." "Why can't I uninstall groff without man breaking?" The problem with the packages is that there is too much cruft that Linux apps depend on. Then you've got to partition your drive. Last time I installed, Win98, you didn't need to know what a partition was. Then, unless you want a ton of useless services on your machine, you've got to read up on each and disable the ones you don't need. "Samba? What they hell is this thing running Samba automatically for?" Finally, you've got to run sndconfig, which as often as not asks you for IRQs and DMAs. If you've gotten through that, you've got to go through hell everytime you want to install an app. "What do you mean this thing uses glibc2.1.2 what the hell's a glibc?" Want to upgrade your desktop? Quit out of X, download a dozen RPMS, and rpm -Ui --force --nodeps them. Why --nodeps? Because 50% of time KDE manages to depend on a package supplied within the package you're trying to install. Sure a lot of these theoretically don't happen, but
A) They're never all in the same distro.
B) Even if they're in the distro, it results you losing functionality. You can run Windows at 90% with no tweeking, Linux maybe 60%. Doesn't it simpy make MORE sense to let people install what they need rather than installing everything and making people wade through the mess getting rid of cruft?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Lost half of the post, here it is in its entirety.
:)
Not true. All technology is born in labs, not in kitchens. If you conquer the labs (and Linux is moving pretty fast in this direction), all new features (including new desktop ideas) will be yours eventually. All concepts eventually die, and even OLE will. And why won't the Linux desktop be next?
>>>>>>
Huh? As far as I can see, all new technology these days seems to be coming from consumer technology. The whole reason the PC market exists is because of the PC's utility as a business machine. Increasingly, the PC market is also being driven by consumers. The technology itself is being driven by games, mainly. As for labs, I don't know of any major labratories which use Linux. However, I do know that there are more features to be found in consumer and business space than anywhere else. Looking for the most efficient interface? Dominate the business market. These people spend hours each day in front of a computer, and they're the ones who need the most efficient interface. Want the easiest interface? Dominate the newbie product market. Want the fastest 3D, dominate the games market, where the need to wring massive performance out of small budgets drives the market faster than even SGI's machines ever did. Want the best security, dominate the business market where people need transparent access to documents without other people getting access too. Almost none of the cool tech that has come out has come because of the needs of the labratory. These days, consumers drive the entire computing inudstry.
As for Linux users attitude - that's not Linux fault. Choose better friends for yourself
Same goes for your 10-years-old canned Linux myths ("no docs", "hard to install", "too many choices", etc., etc.) Believe me, every word you say here was said and proven false years ago. Please don't start this again.
>>>>>>>
No docs: Microsoft has beautifully done HTML help files that are easily searchable, include pictures to explain things, and cover each feature of an application. (The DirectX docs in particular are probably one of the finset examples of detailed API documentation I've seen) Linux has: README's.
Hard to Install: This problem is related to the to many choices problem. Unless you want Mandrake installing 1.4 gigs of stuff on your harddrive, you've got to custom install packages. Then, you've got to wade through multiple redundant packages. "What the hell is the difference between gcc and egcs?" "why the hell to I need the C shell, I never USE the C shell." "Why can't I uninstall groff without man breaking?" The problem with the packages is that there is too much cruft that Linux apps depend on. Then you've got to partition your drive. Last time I installed, Win98, you didn't need to know what a partition was. Then, unless you want a ton of useless services on your machine, you've got to read up on each and disable the ones you don't need. "Samba? What they hell is this thing running Samba automatically for?" Finally, you've got to run sndconfig, which as often as not asks you for IRQs and DMAs. If you've gotten through that, you've got to go through hell everytime you want to install an app. "What do you mean this thing uses glibc2.1.2 what the hell's a glibc?" Want to upgrade your desktop? Quit out of X, download a dozen RPMS, and rpm -Ui --force --nodeps them. Why --nodeps? Because 50% of time KDE manages to depend on a package supplied within the package you're trying to install. Sure a lot of these theoretically don't happen, but
A) They're never all in the same distro.
B) Even if they're in the distro, it results you losing functionality. You can run Windows at 90% with no tweeking, Linux maybe 60%. Doesn't it simpy make MORE sense to let people install what they need rather than installing everything and making people wade through the mess getting rid of cruft?
C) It doesn't work 50% of the time. Sure KDE is supposed to install right of the bat, but ask anybody who uses the NVIDIA drivers and can't get Qt-GL to install, and they'll tell you it isn't all its cracked up to be.
To many choices: Lets see, two major incompatible versions of KDE, GNOME, three versions (incompatible) of libc, two versions of libstdc++, motif, gawk, mawk, pgcc, gcc, C-shell, Zshell, bash, etc, etc. Even worse, all the apps require different versions of each, so I have them all loaded at the same freaking time. I don't know about you, but I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed. (And pissed at all the resource sucking redundency.) Plus, years ago, Linux didn't even have KDE or the super simple (relativly) installers. Why was it proven then?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
In Windows you can click help, and get a nicely formatted HTML help file, with links and searchability. Some even have pictures to help you find a menu or what not. MS has innovated even more (yea, they DO do that) by having a centralized help file that manufactures can add their help files to. Now, one stop help whatever you're using. Sure it takes away the freedom to app writes to include their own style of help, but their freedom doesn't matter, now does it.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Many of these changes were made in the past couple weeks at the big meeting they held. That's why a lot of the features are new or re-designed.
I won't install it if I have to run a script on a web browser as root..
Totally insecure. Practices like that make linux no better than Outlook.
Dave
Note that the applets are different from the simpler 'system tray' applets which are always out-of-process. The applets being discussed in the report are those such as the clock, task bar, pager etc. The in-process and out-of-process applets use the same API and have the same features, they don't know or care if they are actually running in the same process as the panel.
Actually, in KDE 1.x you could move the close button (and the others) to whichever side you wanted, and/or remove them. Pretty easy.'
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
According to the release plan on the KDE homepage, Beta 3 is due to be released today. Anyone know if this will actually happen today?
-Karl
Linux has already succeeded, and because of the proliferation of choices, not in spite of it.
Unfortunately, outside of a small group of people who follow RMS's Open Source creed and support free software, the fact is that Linux hasn't truly succeeded anywhere yet. Sure it is becoming the platform of choice for running webservers, but that is mainly because of the proliferation of small- to medium-sized net startups for whom cost is more of a factor than having a tried and tested rock solid enterprise platform such as Solaris. As these companies die out or grow Linux's share of the server market will once again fall.
Anyway, the desktop market, both for home and business use is where true mindshare comes from. And in this arena Linux has made little headway against the Windows or Mac platforms, both of which cater far better for the average home user than the "RTFM" attitude many Linux users display when it comes to offering advice. And when the only documentation is a couple of man pages (since documentation doesn't get you any "kudos") that is of no use whatsoever.
When the average user comes to set up their Linux box for doing all the stuff they do using Windows they are faced with a bewildering array of choices - which distribution, which window manager, which desktop, which web browser etc etc. How are they supposed to decide on which is best for them, let alone set up and configure these applications?
The only Linux project which has even attempted to make Linux accessible to the average person is Corel Linux, and what did they get for their trouble? Irate Linux gods flaming them for "dumbing down" their operating system and making it more accessible to all.
---
Jon E. Erikson
Jon Erikson, IT guru
No, I think the only good integration between GNOME and KDE will come when both can share the same config files, are binary compatible, when I can use GIMP and KDevelop without loading two sets of very huge libraries, and when KDE objects can be embedded into a GNOME container, which is actually another object contained in KDE container and being shared via CORBA from a GNOME server running in my closet. Lastly, it has to do all this without increasing the bloat of either environment from "obscene" to "Windows 2000."
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Great idea! Do other KParts components (not just panel applets) have the same capability?
(sorry bout the spelling...) This comment is just a bunch of vague, anti-Gnome FUD.
He make s a bunch of comments about KDE picking up
steam and GNOME being slow, etc. etc. He obviously
hasn't used Gnome, recntly at least. His same comments
would have applied well to KDE a year ago!
If anything, KDE is languishing - dragged down by petty
license issues, and GNOME is rapidly eclipsing it.
With Eazel, Helix Code, etc relentlessly improving, GNOME is probably in better long-term shape than the KDE project.
Not in 2.0. It is possible to add it in future though. The performance hit in doing this with a large API however would be quite large.
1. Will arts be working at all in this beta? I don't mean every multimedia app and player, but basic sound and perhaps one player (midi or simple wav effects for window events, for example) as proof of concept that arts does work and is not just very sophisticated crashware.
2. Are further changes in the core libs and the version of Qt being used planned? In other words, can we reliably use current libs and includes from this beta, and the Qt libs and includes, to build apps that will work with the final version?
Note: Please make sure that the correct version of Qt is included or linked to for a separate download. Current version of Qt in the snapshots is almost always incompatible or missing.
3. Will a version of KDevelop that works with the release be included, or will that need to be obtained separately?
4. Concurrent with the final release, or perhaps before, will the applications listing at the Kde site be revised to reflect which applications have been ported to Kde2 and which have not? Understandably developers are busy with code, but someone must be maintaining the web site.
Currently the apps listing is just generated from what is on the ftp site and from old archives with many dead links and duplicate entries - very uninformative and misleading. Each applicaton really should have a hand-written description with a link to the home page and download site. If an app doesn't have a home page, it is most likely dead and shouldn't be listed at all.
Gnome maintains its apps directory religiously. Failure by Kde to do the same gives the false impression about the state of Kde applications independent of the core apps included with releases. You cannot depend on Freshmeat to do that for you, and having your own listing with meaningful descriptions and working links makes independent developers feel that their work is taken seriously by Kde. This would really help morale and would further encourage developers of old or unmaintained Kde 1 apps to port them to Kde 2!
If you don't want to use the lynx method, why not just download all the RPM's from Helix and use the Helix installer to install them. I have problems seeing how this can be considered hard.
Thanks for the information. Shows what I get when I speak too soon. :)
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I sincerely hope this what would happen in next 2-3 years - when GNOME/KDE developers will realise the have implemented every useful UI feature competing systems have and they still want to move forward. The the real fun will begin (hopefully).
Unless, of course, they'd be caught in "let's do everything and then a couple of kitchen sinks just for start" trap, like Mozilla seems to be.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
The 40 colour icon set is only used if you aren't using a true colour video mode. If you do have true colour, then you get the true colour icon set.
Because it isn't a well known answer. All I ever hear is the preferred insecure method. If this were more well known perhaps I would try it. For now I am putting GNOME installation on the back burner.
Its a shame really because I really GTK over QT for licensing reasons.
Dave
I found the release plan as of July 17 on the following site: http://www.kde.org/news_dyn.html
Current Status (as of July 17)
==============
3 days until the KDE 2.0 Feature Freeze
1 weeks until KDE 1.92 will be released
4 weeks until KDE 2.0 RC 1 will be released
7 weeks until KDE 2.0 will be released
Wow, less than 7 weeks until the expected roll out.
As of last week, the login screen didn't look like this, and some of the tools they mention weren't in the default menus. I guess it's time to grab another beta!
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Try this instead:
As yourself:
lynx -source http://go-gnome.com > install.sh
vi install.sh
Read the source. Notice that a binary is included. That binary is the installer, and can be obtained here
As root:
sh < install.sh
This is the preferred insecure method with a little bit of intelligence applied so that you understand what you're running. If you don't trust the binary from HelixCode, then you're probably out of luck, and then you'll have to compile the whole mess. If your only issue is the superuser "lynx | sh" then this will alleviate your fears. The installer shell script isn't too complex, so just read the source and do your own audit.
GNOME guys have this grand vision to produce the one and only desktop that will be everything to everyone. I feel they are trying to take on too much and hence the progress is very slow. I was once on a (commercial) project like this. We wanted to build the ultimate application in the industry, encompass everything and still leave plenty of room for expansion. The project grew enormously before it became usable and the initial "grand design" had to be replaced by something simpler and leaner. I think this stage is still ahead of the GNOME guys. The age old KISS rule will bite them very soon (if it's not biting them already). They may have the great plan and superb architecture but I have my own views on designing architectures before anything uses it. No offence to the GNOME team but a thought from experience. KDE has all the aces their desktop is leaner, more functional and more stable thanks to its simpler design. Bonobo may be great one day but it will take them years to get it going especially if they try to rewrite StarOffice with it.
it still strikes me that the KDE guys/gals are striving for holistic GUI usability at all levels, while GNOME is (intentionally or not) targeted to a far more tech-savvy, enthusiast crowd. now if they were just codebase-level interoperable......
cheers to both GNOME/KDE camps in any case...
The word is: no interoperability before KDE 3.0, as reported in several recent slashdot stories.
Of course it's possible and easy, but i think its important to have the best possible default, because KDE's target is the inexperienced beginner.
Szo
Red Leader Standing By!
"then the KDE be could an evolved competitor for GNOMES" First, no comment on the quality of english...but you simply forget that GNOME was created to compete with KDE, i.e. was there first by at least a year. GNOME began primarily because of licensing arguments, though it can be argued that it has other reasons for existing today.
I'd also like you to point me to where I might buy KDE stock? KDE isn't a corporation...at least not in the "to make money" sense of the word.
Yes - I know he was a troll..but he just pissed me off.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Netscape*documentFonts.sizeIncrement: 10
This reduces the increment/decrement factor of fonts to 10% from the default 20%, so you don't end up with such tiny fonts.
There seems to be some really nice things on this ftp (like different toolbar icons, backgrounds, much better splash screen).
Is it going to be realeased any time soon ?
Might be that I am being judgemental being a long time GNOME user, but when looking at the screenshots, especially the one of the filemanager, the icons gave me a distinctly 'for kids' feeling. It is hard to explain the reasons, but I think the combination of a cartoonish look ('simplified' and big and very distinct colours) are probably part of the explanation for this impression. If this was done on purpose by KDE, I think it is a mistake. Non-techie users probably don't want to be given an interface which inidicates that they as users are on a 'kids' level.
The parent post is damn informative, and I plan to make his modification as soon as possible. But it has me wondering, what exactly about his post should not be labeled informative and instead should be labeled funny? That someone is using Netscape to begin with? Linux doesn't give you many other options, so that can't be it. Aha; I think I've got it: the moderator was smoking a whole lott'a crack.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
I agree that good defaults are important, but KDE's default is set to look like 95/98, thus making the transition easier for the inexperienced beginner (who has, most likely, used Windows before). It would seem to be a more likely setup, at least at first.
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Linux will truly have succeeded in the desktop world when the default install for beginners will be usable by my mother, that is to say when there will be enough easy-to-use apps with a coherent DEFAULT look-and-feel for the beginners, while still allowing advanced users to customise it all the way..
:-)
I don't understand why each time someone talk about uniform standard look-and-feel, slashdotters there is someone replying Linux is about choice, an the like..
Uh? Linux needs a uniform standard look-and-feel for the DEFAULT configuration, it wouldn't take away any freedom because it would still be changeable totally by advanced users..
There are differents level of "configurability" which are not incompatible IMHO:
a) some change doable by beginners with a easy-to-use GUI (control center).
b) more configurability by modifying configuration files by hand, using scripts, etc.
c) the ultimate configurability: use the source, Luke!
Well, KDE 2.0 should be a step in the good direction..
Trust is the key, if you don't trust the installer, then why the hell are you installing the applications they are distributing?
Exactly!!
The icons they show in the filebrowser are really nice looking, crisp with good colours and still identifiable.Colorful but not garish. The same for the toolbar icons. The overall color schemes cried "Aqua" to this observer.
But having mentioned toolbars, the spreadsheet screenshot was ludicrous ! Half the real estate seemed to be taken up by icons and toolbar widgets ! I assume these can be turned off.(GNOME suffers far too much from chunky button syndrome as well). Toolbar buttons are fine for quick shortcuts guys, but they take away space from the application itself.
The most sensible thing in the article by far is the minimum font size in the web browser ! All web browsers should have this. Tiny fonts suck!
Kudos to all these guys for putting all the work in to continually improve their offerings. I don't really go much for the Linux desktop environment thing, but I know plenty of people who wouldn't think of using a computer without one. The KDE and GNOME teams are doing a really important job
My compliments to the graphic design team as well. I think it looks really clean and attractive as I said.
Now please can you sort out the licensing furore ? Thank you.
-- Oh Well
Still no word on interoperability.
I'm ambivalent about introducing licensing issues into a discussion that's focusing on technical issues, but there's an interesting bit of news that I haven't seen mentioned outside of the kde-licensing list. Here's a post on a Debian mailing list in which RMS offers his view on linking apps to Qt. Basically he supports the view that GPL'd code like KDE, which is designed to link against a non-GPL library, should be considered to implicitly have permission to do so - and thus dosn't require any license modifications.
Now, there is still the issue of GPL'd code from outside sources, but this obviously removes 99% of the problem. So is Debian reconsidering, now that RMS has addressed their primary objection? Not really, as discussed in this kde-licensing thread.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Uh, it's nothing like outlook. You are just using a shell script to download the install tool. Just save the contents of the script to a file and look at it if you don't trust helix code. Or just download the website. Outlook is a place where you don't always have a secure choice.
Trust is the key, if you don't trust the installer, then why the hell are you installing the applications they are distributing?
treke
They do look very nice. But I wonder... Don't icons with internal color shading make assumptions about the background color? They may not look anywhere nearly as nice against another background. Of course most folder windows do have a yellow'd extremely light gray color for their background, but I thought that this was themeable (or am I getting mixed up with Gnome?). If so, then several of the icons may need to be replaced for several of the themes. (Well, I never use colored windows anyway, but ...)
Should icons be theme specific? (Can they be?) If the icons are themed, then they can be edited to stand out against the background specified by the theme (lots of work, but then it lets themes be more flexible), this will allow them to be more aesthetic, and also, perhaps, more confusing. If they can't be, then many of the themes will be ugly.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Let me describe this scenario for you.
/.
The script is on a web server. Let's say script kiddie number 1 here wants to screw with linux users everywhere because he think GNOME is stupid.
Well he cracks the server and changes this easy to hack shell script. it now does a rm -rf
OOps I ran that as root. The problem is most people who are beginning linux will not think of this. Helix code's convieniently dangerous solution is exactly that. Convienient for new users to wreck their system.
If it went uncaught for an hour and there are 100 people running this in an hour then all 100 people who didn't check are now screwed. Sorry free software has no warranty. This means BE CAREFUL. This sort of thing leads to carelessness.
Dave
As long as security considerations are taken, the dcop shell scripting capabilities open up a huge amount of possibilities. This looks v. v. interesting
Other enhancements to the panel include extended configurability and a feature that allows you to select which 'applets' you trust to run inside it. If you download a new applet and it crashes, taking the panel with it, you can tell the panel to stop trusting it, which means the applet will only be able crash itself in future! Uhhh... Why not NEVER trust it. What's the use in trusting it in the first place if you can ALWAYS have the applet running (and crashing) without taking the panel with it... Just a thought?
Adolescent trolls, be gone. This is just preposterous.
Every decent slashdotter loves GPL and GNOME.
Stop sending news about politically incorrect movement.
I'm sorry, but that conclusion is completely without foundation. I have installed four different types of network card in computers running Linux and *all* of them were cleanly autodetected and worked "out of the box" without any need for manual configuration at all.
Contrast this with installation an Intel EtherExpress Pro/100 on Windows 98: It simply refused to find the correct driver whichever of the three standard methods of device driver installation was used. I eventually gave up and after trawling Intel's support site I discovered that this is a known bug; it was necessary to go in and edit the .INF files by hand before it would install properly.
Remember, almost from its earliest incarnation Linux has been deployed as a network services platform. Network hardware support is therefore one thing you can count on to work right.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
To grab it is also simple, just change this line from the directions on Helix's site from...
lynx -source http://go-gnome.com | sh
to...
lynx -source http://go-gnome.com > foo.sh
...and you can view the script.
The script itself is simple, and basically puts up a warning and extracts a binary. The binary is uuencoded, and source is available.
The installer is quite handy if you have a network since you can run and fetch everything from a local, and known secure, machine...not Helix's site.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Keep up the excellent work, guys! It is refreshing to see something in linux focus on USEABILITY as opposed to trying to emulate the windoze braindead interface.
Now if only we had a standard API for drag/drop, inheritence, etc. that all wm's or GUI environments could use....imagine the possibilities when you can make everything look/work the way you want, but still be assured everything works together.
The report focus on a lot of smaller details which have been improved, such as the minimum font size in the browser etc.
These things may not seem very important at first, but many of them, you will be using several times every day and this "stuff" are therefore very important to the overall desktop experience.