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Open-Source Netware-Aware OS Under Construction
jjr writes "An article over at Infoworld say that a former exec of Novell is creating a open source(GPL) netware compatible OS. you can play with it over at www.timpanogas.com" The operating system is named MANOS, so I keep expecting to see a lot of hands involved.
Man is it ever annoying when these open source projects spend tons of time on giving people titles, setting up cool websites and such before (or even instead of) doing any coding. For instance, from the website:
"TRG's MANOS logo was painted approximately 1500 years ago by an ancient artist who was one of the earliest inhabitants of Utah."
That's right, this project has been around for 1500 years and they are just now starting to code. Sheesh.
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Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
L0phtCrack
and for you CDC fans out there BackOrifice is installed by default!!..
Ok it sounded better in my head... *sigh*
Cool! Think of the features:
I would pay $50 for one!
(This will make no sense to anyone except MST3K fans. It refers to a movie that makes "Plan 9 from Outer Space" look like "Gone With the Wind".)
(*) Natalie Portman skin optional
He has been an active contributor to (at least) the discussion on the linux-kernel mailing list for the last year or so. Check out his entry in the Kernel Traffic People index.
It's very interesting to watch his interaction with the community, since he came in from a large software house and seem(ed, s) to not "get" the way Linux development works. Some of the discussions he's brought up really seem bizarre in the Linux world (incorporate fsck into the kernel, like w2k, or this little diatribe), but others have led to very positive developments (NTFS help, legal help, ...).
Some times this guy seems like he just doesn't get it, but then again he provides a very active *different* voice in l-k land. And the best part is that due to the nature of the project, people can basically ignore him when he rants and maybe still pick up some useful ideas along the way.
Directly related to this story, I'm not sure how much use an open NW-alike is, but hey, it's a free world.
-- Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?
Except that one of the principals of the project, Jeff Merkey, already contributes scads of code to Linux and is very active on the lkml. He's already worked on lots of filesystems and he's contributed a new open source debugger for debugging a running kernel. It seems that Linux has already benefited.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
"Our intent is to support existing Linux applications and drivers on an optimized NOS [network operating system] kernel that provides comparable performance metrics to today's Netware product line."
Thats all very nice to hear but when you take a look at the current server market (and the market shares offcourse) you will notice that Novell's share is decreasing very rapidly. Despite the fact that their NOS is a very robust and stable one its obvious, judging by the statistics, that the people want something else (more) nowadays. One could speculate on how people seemed to loose interest, IMHO one of the reasons is due to their own 'special' way of supporting TCP/IP but thats besides the point.
So I wonder why they want to focus on a complete new OS, which is based on a fading one, instead of supporting the currently available OS'ses even better? Sure; a Netware based OS which can also run Linux applications sounds nice but not necessary; if I need Linux support I'd just setup another server running Linux, its free remember?
As for the Netware part; if I'd have to choose between a (proven) stable NOS like netware or a new (free) product on the market I'd choose for Netware. Thats how it works when running a business. Even these folks feel the same on this: "Our first target shipment is geared to providing NetWare 4.11 NDS and networking capability in an open-source form to Novell's existing customers,". This also sounds very promising but don't forget that they plan to release somewhere in "the second half of 2001". How many Netware users will be left then? No one can predict this for sure but I really don't think it will be enough to make this whole product commonly accepted. It would take time, much effort and a lot of people supporting it.
If these folks really want to give out more support for Netware I'd personally suggest focusing on building and extending NDS support for Linux instead of selling it.
They should have named it MENOS as in "mas o menos." :-)
-JD
Why is it that every announcement on Slashdot made that is vaguely related to free software (or to something being GPL'd) is tagged with the GNU logo?
This story has no relation to GNU whatsoever. Can someone come up with a "free software" logo for this sort of news?
Whoever they are, they don't know how to spell Timpanogos, that alone is pretty embarrasing.
Maybe it's not their fault. See, it's the name of the tallest mountain around these parts. There are two trails to the peak, and the easiest one is the one maintained by the girl scouts of america. And since they're ignorant, they spelled the sign at the trail head Timpanogas. And since they're cheap, they never fixed the sign. But it's still embarrasing. It's spelled Timpanogos. Anyone who had to study it in elementary school knows that.
So, aparantly, these guys have never hiked it (and it's almost a requirement to hike it at least once if you live here), or they've only hiked it the easy way.
All that being said, there are facts to be pointed out.
1: They've been mentioned here before. At that time i think it was netware support for linux or somesuch.
2: Former Novell Execs are a dime a dozen. Honestly, being a Vice President at Novell is like being a middle-managment pencil pusher anywhere else. They have so many of them that the term no longer has any meaning.
3: If they can't spell the name of the valley's most prominant landmark correctly I've absolutly no faith in them.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
What saves Novell's butt outide of the file-&-print world is NDS. Directory Services done right. No crappy NT wierdness, no bizarre limitations, this thing is a true distributed object-oriented directory you can stick about anything into. Novell took all of that time in the field and learned what SysAdmins really want : the ability to manange everything from one point fast, easily, reliably, and in quantity. No six-tools-piped-together-then-hand-added-to-each-s ystem, no custom-scripts-only-their-writer-understands-&-he- left-last-year, no scramble to find & close accounts when someone jumps ship, no you-do-it-this-way-here-and-that-way-there - instead all in one easy to read, easy to architect, very flexible directory. User information? Here. Maiden names? There. Desktop prefs? There. Printer settings? There. Printer drivers? Over there. Notes account? There. AIX acounts? There. Phone numbers? Here. Fax box? There. Billing center? Here. AOL Chat? Here. All there - everywhere.
Unfortunately Novell hasn't figured out how to make this wonder universal. Sure it runs on a couple of platforms but there's little to encourage new folks to move to it. If any product ever needed at 200-user-&-90-day free trial this is it. Let the masses get a taste and they'll want more. Unfortunately Novell hasn't figured out how to do so.
What they have done is put out a few lame Netware-drivers that rely on IPX (remember IPX? Secure, smart, but not TCP/IP) and were closely tied to specific kernels. They want to let other folks in but are afraid of loosing the jewels. NDS on open-source boxes - their fear is how to get them to pay for the intellectual property (& Novell has staked their fortune on developing NDS!) Most of the /.'ers just want their hands on tech they don't want to pay big upfront license fees for but when that's the only model you have then you're stuck. Sell support? Not much use in a business like directory services. Charge for development tools? Yeah - developers don't need anyone that much anymore.
Anyway, this crew from Novell helped develop & pre-market the Novell's next-gen clustering technology and when it was about baked jumped ship and started telling folks they were going to sell pretty much what they'd been developing at Novell. Lawsuits ensue and these folks find out that you can't just walk out the door with the tech. Big bills are paid and so they decide to go off in the Utah desert & reinvent Netware. Unfortunately they hadn't noticed 'till recently that no one needs another Netware, particularly a third party one that couldn't run what apps Netware already has and is only compatible with an obsolete (4.11) version.
So now they're offering is drivers to read Netware file systems (nice but not an overwhelming need in most quarters) and a new OS that can use Linux drivers under a new "MANOS" kernel to integrate with Netware environments. Oh, and there's some talk of an open source NDS clone but no one has seen any evidence of this (at least that I'm aware of.) This of course all has to be done without violating the legal decisions against them from their last run-in with Novell where they had to agree not to use or release any secrets.
Yay. Another open source OS, albiet from a good developer, whose sales feature is the ability to integrate with a platform that's not growing and a promise to deliver an open-source version of NDS - something that has taken a lot of very bright folks a lot of time to develop & tune, all without infringing on trade secrets or legal agreements. Oh, and this thing will be like Netware - no apps for it (the ability to read DLLs and such is interesting but without the infrastructure to host them not much good.) Just what the world needs.
Here's an idea: someone develop a good set of open-source libraries for an NDS clone. Or someone figure out a model for Novell to release theirs yet still make money on them. But please, lets not tie them to another limited-application OS. Enough reinventing the wheel - we're at the point where everyone just wants components that an be added a la carte to their favorite and/or most appropriate OS.
Please, before folks start posting how they recall with disfavor their experiences with Netware in '86 or whenever recall what the competition was also like back then. Also, if you haven't used Netware 5.0 then you really should be quiet - these days it's very different from what you recall; very sophisticated, very polished, and very good at what it does. Frankly if I could use Netware for my file & print serving, Linux for my application hosting, and NDS to tie everything together they'd kick.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Hmm. I assume the problem here is that you are tied to the Novell DOS stacks.
I have a couple of similar apps (they require the DOS level IPX stack to operate, and a VLM login) and it took a fair while to find out that, yes, you CAN run the old 16-bit stack under Win95. it isn't easy (and you have to login from the autoexec.bat before bringing up windows) but there is a "shim" NIC driver that will allow you to run standard DOS Novell drivers under a Win95 machine, and still have a Microsoft standard TCP/IP stack for the other stuff.
If you want a *really* strange solution, you can also run a machine with *two* network cards, one for windows95 and one for the DOS drivers. Provided you don't use the Windows95 PNP management stuff, you will be surprised how well it works.......
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-=DaveHowe=-
Half the problems attributed to Windows95 were problems integrating it with Novell networks.
Indeed. But is that a problem with Windows95 or with NetWare? Given the deliberate brain-damage in Microsoft's "Client for NetWare Networks", and their past track record in general, I know who I would blame.
Novell's never implemented TCP/IP properly...
While they were dragged in screaming, fighting tooth and nail, Novell finally did wake up and smell the Internet. NetWare 5.0's IP stack is actually pretty good.
Want to triple the service calls for workstations on your network, at the same time acheiving a four-fold drop in system response time? Simply install Novell's Network Client on an NT Workstation.
A short version is, IMO, "Simply install NT Workstation."
I left to pursue NT...
But you're not biased or anything...
Linux does NOT NEED to be dragged down to the level of a Novell network.
Regardless of which way Linux would be dragged, it is worth pointing out that this project is only tangentially related to Linux. It is mainly a project to implement an ABI compatible NetWare clone under an Open Source license. I don't remember Open Source being declared limited to Unix.
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I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.