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Ask John Gildred About Indrema And Linux Gaming
You've been hearing about it (and hearing about it) for months -- the Linux-based gaming console in the works from a company called Indrema. Now you can ask the questions that are on your mind about it (like when it will really and truly arrive, in the hooked-up-and-running-Quake sense, say) and get answers from company founder and CEO John Gildred. (More below.)
Post below your questions for Gildred; you may want to check out previous articles here on Slashdot (#1, #2, #3, #4 (the one Hemos just posted)), as well as other recent interviews with Gildred at womengamers.com and GamesFirst and LinuxGames.com, or even the Indrema Web site, to find previous answers you'd like Gildred to qualify, clarify or expand on as well. No sense asking the obvious, after all -- but I'd sure like to know "When?", "When?!", and "When?!" I'd hoped to have pre-ordered one of these machines already, but the introduction date has been revised a few times, and always in the wrong direction. Hopefully, though, a longer wait means a cooler console.
What I really want to know is how good of a DVD player this thing will be. I plan on buying a new one, and a machine that can do more than play movies is appealing (I like getting more for my money). This is part of the appeal of the Sony Playstation 2. Sure it can play games, but it can also play movies. Now I want a new DVD player that can do progressive scan via component outputs -- you mention support for the 480p and 720p signals, as well as HDTV support at 1080i. I also want to be able to ouput DTS/DTS-es/Dolby 5.1/6.1, etc. to my sound system. All of this functionality is at best hinted at and at worst not mentioned at all on your website. So will all this be available?
It meets the GL spec in all the areas that matters and it's a decent software implementation. It happens that what I think you're talking about is accelerated MesaGL- which is a different beast altogether. And, yes, without better acceleration support, there's not going to be a future. Thing is, there is a future- DRI is coming. For those that can't wait and have select accelerators, there's Utah-GLX.
Workstations only for work? De facto nature of Linux? I think you might want to take those blinders off. Windows98 and W2k are "workstation" OSes as well (Well, Microsoft calls them that!) and they are used as such. That's the de facto nature of them- but yet, look at all the games for those OSes. Take all the preconcieved notions of what an OS is supposed to be used for and throw them clean out the window. And as for it being "fun" without a high-speed internet connection; you're not trying hard enough.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Look at all the consoles out there. Of them, which is the only one out there that will have anything resembling it? You guessed it- the X-Box. Of the console choices out there, which one is vaporware? Again, the X-Box (if it's not shipping yet, it's still vapor!). Now, if the console companies seem (and they do at that!) to be doing well for themselves without DirectX, why on this Earth would it be an issue for this machine?
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
DirectX is not a magic bullet. DirectX is not a way to make Linux popular as a platform for gaming.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
DRI's the answer to that. You're NOT going to go through X with it. And, it seems that with the current RagePRO GLX support through Utah-GLX, that I've got a visually correct display and slightly higher frame rates in many of my games than in Windows. That's through all those layers of indirection that X presents.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Give the size constraints of the Indrema, you might not be able to leave lots of empty space for future expansion. But how much hardware modification will be possible, for those inclined toward such things? Will it be possible to buy a unit with a smaller hard drive, then upgrade later with an off-the-shelf unit? (Corollary: We will be able to download OS patches, right? :)
Are Loki games the only games your console will have at release? Will I be able to use mods for these games as well?
Will this be another linux set-top box like AOL-Gateway and dozens of others that allows TV and networking?
Can you use it as a basic linux system as well?
Even though you seem to have some reasonably impressive technical specs for your machine, a console is nothing without a good lineup of games. How do you expect to be able to get enough developer support whne you've got competition from the likes of Nintendo, Sony, Sega and Microsoft? Microsoft alone will apparently be spending half a billion dollars on marketing XBox, and all the other companies have a record of making games consoles, and are well known by the public.
For a game devloper to be able to make their money back, they need to sell a large number of units of their game, which isn't going to happen unless you've got a large user base. I just can't see how you're going to out-market the giants...
cheers,
Tim
Does the Indrema console support the Amiga / Tao Virtual Environment for development? I ask mainly because that would mean that any developers could be assured that their game would run on a variety of systems, and since RedHat bundles the new Amiga SDK.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
How will it measure up to the X-box in terms of price & performance?
Will third parties be releasing games for it?
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Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I believe their business plan was drafted during the 3-week period when having Linux as a keyword in your press release meant doubling your IPO price. The actual business model was secondary. So you saw press releases like "Our new eLintRemover is poised to revolutionize the lint-removing industry. Linux MP3s warez Britney Pokemon."
No discernable, qualitative economical difference exists between a console and a personal computer. Both consist of computer hardware and software and the marketshare of both is largely (if not entirely) a function of the available add-on titles. For each exception to this rule (the no qualitative difference rule) that exists on side of the equation, an equivalent exception exists on the other side.
The differences between consoles and personal computers is almost entirely functional, not economical. Consoles are typically single function devices (one plays games on them) while personal computers are typically general pupose machines (one plays games, does the taxes, writes codes, etc.).
Even this difference is fading. Consoles are quickly becoming general purpose devices. For example, Sony's PS 2 also plays movies and browses the web. We are entering the dreaded buzz word era: digital convergence.
Consider the new PDA's such as the iPaq. These are "computer appliances" and as such are close cousins to the gaming console. But wait, they are quickly becoming general purpose machines as well.
No developer needs to develop Indrema only games in order for Indrema to be successful. Rather, enough developers need to also support Indrema with their titles. Evidently, you have not read Gildred's other interviews linked at the top of this article. Gildred already addressed his market plan. It is the market plan of a console, not of a general purpose computer.
Now, whether Indrema has done enough research into their target market (Linux Power Gamers) to make the venture more than a 1 in a million crap shoot is another question altogether.
This is the first sensible thing you've said and it is quite correct. The success of Linux in the market is entirely due to grass roots marketing, not, as many people like to believe, its alleged technological superiority over Windows. Linux may or may not be superior to its competitors (it is higly likely that the grass roots marketing behind Linux is because of actual superiority, but this is not necessarily the case). In fact, whether Linux is superior or not doesn't matter. What does matter is that Linux is grabbing developer and data center mindshare at a phenomenal rate. Indrema is gambling that grass roots marketing will make for a profitable console . It will be interesting to see if Indrema's gamble pays off...
So says the conventional wisdom. Personally I disbelieve that this is always the case or even predominantly the case. Do you have any support for the conventional wisdom?
[1] This may be due to many Linux gamers buying the Windows version which often includes a license for the Linux version and/or Linux titles typically coming to market weeks or months after the Windows version and/or the release of multi-platform disks that get counted as "Windows" sales. AFAIK, no one has yet sought to do a serious enough analysis of the situation to say one way or the other.
It seems to me that the only chance that a small console company has in the fight with the two biggest and badest boys on the block is to do exactly what they will never do, and make the it a Free (as in speech) and open platform that caters to the users rather than to corporate interests and profite motives of control.
Yet, from what I read of the audio interview transcripts the other day, you seem to be taking the opposite approach, and are going to play the same game of attempting to control and enslave the console user as they do. Certainly going out of your way to lock off the ability of hackers to tweak and change the machine is a step in that direction, and the quote that could only be interpreted as that you would not allow certain kinds of applications (Napster type) on your platform would seem to be a confirmation.
Openess and the ability to run those incredibly popular applications that Microsoft and Sony, being in bed with the "intellectual property" maffia, will never allow on their closed platforms would be fantastic. A machine that is not only a console, but that works for the users and not against them (like the MS and Sony machines will in many ways) could be something major, while another attempt to build a PC with Freedom and Openess removed is doomed to soon be forgotten.
Which road are you taking, and if you truly intend to criple your machine and it's users to suit the desires of the music and movie industries, how do you defend that to us as potential customers?
What is your attitude on hackers tearing apart an affordable system to add new functionality and features? Will your company encourage hacking of your game consoles to add functionality, or will you fire off Cease and Desist letters?
When, not if, your cool new console gets hackish add-ons, what would be the coolest features you would like to see? Will you incorporate the best hacks into new games for those who have them? Will you come out with non-game features or applications for those who want to re-use their hardware for other things like controlling robots or network management?
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
At a recent Xbox technical presentation that was held at my school (Purdue) a Microsoft representative said their chief completion was Sony and to a lesser extent Nintendo. When asked about the Indrema he merely laughed pointing out that he thought the project would never get off the ground with out $2bil pumped into it (ie. Xbox..). Which raises the question, Your company is definitely the underdog in shear resources how do you plan to compete commercially with the likes of Microsoft and Sony?
Is Linux really your primary angle or is that simply what Linux zealots are reading into it? I ask because OS choice is not even in the top ten reasons why someone would pick one game console over another, yet every article about Indrema fixates on Linux being the focus of the console.
With PS2 (Sony), X-BOX (MS), and the GameCube (Nintendo) out or coming out next year, how are you going to compete againt the "big boys" ?
It's a known fact that consoles (hardware) sells for a loss, and make it up on licensing the games (software). What game developers do you have lined up?
As a game programmer I'd be interested in getting a dev kit. The registration page doesn't have any info on price, or hardware specs. Could you give us any of those?
Thx
Sega, Sony, and Nintendo all have entrenched markets in the console industry. While it isn't impossible to break into the market, what strategy do you have for competing with these three titans? What is it about Indrema that sets it apart from the rest of the crowd?
A related question: key to the success of any platform is developer support. What developers have pledged to code for the Indrema system? At the projected release date, how many games will there be, and what kind of games are you going after?
Probably the main thing that has kept the current crop of video game manufacturers alive over the years has been their ability to sign key game developers along the way.
What kinds of alliances have you been striking with game development companies, or are you planning on relying on the normal development of PC games for Linux?
One thing that I've noticed in the past about consoles is that they have traditionally required much more efficient coding, because the programmers are dealing with a very limited amount of memory. While systems like the X-Box might change this a bit, I think that consoles will still have this limitation to a degree. Since I'm sure the same will be true for a Linux based console, do you think that the code developed in the making of a console system could someday lead us to a more efficient, less bloated GUI for Linux that would replace X?
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
You're not really counting solely on superior hardware to make this thing work, are you? This kind of bet has failed so many times in the past it would be hard to ennumerate them all here. Obviously you're going to have to grab enough of a user-base that developers are going to jump at the chance to support your console. So what is the killer feature that will be so irresistible to gamers and developers alike that we're going to take a chance on an unknown console instead of putting our money down on a tried-and-true PlayStation 2?
How are you planning to break even? The traditional console business model is to sell the console itself at a loss, and make money in the form of a 'tax' on the software. With a truly open system, this won't be possible. Unless I've missed something, that leaves you with a profit margin on the console itself as your source of revenue - but to turn a profit on the console would mean charging far more for it than your competitors will charge for their machines.
The other question I have would be ... do you plan on having someone scream Indrema in your commercials ... because I can be that guy :-)
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
The biggest complaint I've heard from game companies about linux users is that they don't want to pay for games... that they want the games to be open source.
...or will you do something dastardly/proprietary to thwart that?
Does that even apply to a console system as a problem? Since it may not be targetted at linux users per se. Are you afraid of increased piracy?
Can the proposed games for the console system be used on a regular linux system?
BlackNova Traders
That comment is 5 years out of date. The games industry has been moaning for the last 5 years about the good old days when the best games came from small, independent dev teams. But it can't happen now, not unless your idea of "the best games" means "Tetris clones". The small independent developers now are running multi-million-dollar budgets, to deal with the complexity and the mass of content that's required to compete in today's market.
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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Why did you choose Linux as the operating system for this console? Linux is best known as a robust, multi-tasking, multi-user host, while games are single-user, single-tasking applications. Won't the games suffer an unecessary performance hit due to Linux's paging and protection mechanisms, or do you disable these and have a "streamlined" Linux which does only what it absolutely necessary?
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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-- Danny Vermin
PS2 and GameCube are going to do just fine without DirectX sapping 5%-10% (less MS-friendly estimates go up to 25%) of their performance. I'm sure this console will too.
.88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
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-- Danny Vermin
Windows had some games, but they weren't as powerful or as fun as DOS games. But they were slightly easier to write, since they didn't need sound drivers and graphics drivers to be written for the game itself.
Then came Windows 95. Windows 95's APIs were slightly faster than Windows 3.1, and Window-based games were possible. But DOS games still ruled.
MS wasn't stupid - they knew that ease of access to hardware is what made DOS the OS of choice for games. So they did the intelligent thing - they made it possible to access the hardware through an abstraction layer, called DirectX. The first real DirectX games were made based on DirectX 3 (what's it with MS and getting things right the third version?).
Since then, this "Direct X" beast has been what allowed people to make video games that run on a vast number of hardware.
Consoles skip that problem handily. All the hardware is the same, always! (Well, sorta. Sony added some new stuff when they created the Dual Shock. But it became standardized because - well, Sony did it first and marketed it, and since they made the console....)
Because the hardware is known on a console, you can use assembly and write really fast routines for the hardware. You don't need to rely on abstraction layers that know which registers exist on the GPU for this card and what to do to access the DSP for the sound card. It's all known.
That being said, you really don't need much of a kernel for your OS. (Besides, a RR scheduler on a gaming machine? Ugh.) All you need to provide are services to access the media, services to use the network (if provided), and that's basically it. You probably don't want to make hardware drivers in the OS - let people optimize their game for the single set of hardware. That's what "next generation" games do - the first generation of games are trying out a console, as time goes on, people learn how to use the hardware in the best possible way for what they wish to do.
The bottom line is that Windows got game because it was easier to access computer hardware to write fast games on it. When it got > 75% of the market share, it became a sure-thing to write for. Macs aren't a real target platform because of the small market. Same for Linux.
Consoles have the same market share problem, to a degree. Once a console's hardware is a restriction on the games, developers will be more likely to move to a newer console simply to take advantage of the newer, nicer hardware. Hardware is a factor, market penetration is more. Accessing the hardware is the biggest hurdle using an OS, and Windows would be the worst if it wasn't for DirectX providing a standard way to do it.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Being that Linux is primarily an open source OS, are there any plans to release the code for the console and games?
Dirty Pirate Hooker
The X-Box, PS2, Dreamcase have all mentioned having a 56k Modem. The N-Cube claims to have an ethernet port for those with broadband. What kind of online capabilities will this machine have? Seeing as how quickly broadband is growing, I'd like to heavily encourage having an ethernet port :-)
Keep in mind, that online gaming is the future...
-- "Microsoft can never die! They make the best damn joysticks around!"
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
What are you going to do about the lack of DirectX support?
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I'd rather pay for open software than get closed software for free.
This is silly; you clearly don't mean what you're saying here. In order for the software to be "open", you have to have the option of getting it for free. So why would you pay for it? And, knowing this, why would any games developer make the software open in the first place. Even Eric Raymond knows that the Open Source model isn't appropriate for games until they've passed the end of their commercial life.
Consoles are about marketing, not technology. Don't bring your server mentality to the mass market and expect anything other than a sound ass-whipping.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I know it's fun to think of this as a David vs Goliath situation, in this case Linux gamers with an inferiority complex (as far as gaming goes, anyway) vs big bad Microsoft, Sony, Sega and Nintendo.
But, therein lies the problem. A little company, with a tiny budget, is barely going to be a blip on the radar to those companies. Their customer base? Inconsequential. The only people who will likely buy this system are people that run Linux already. Developers realise this, so why bother wasting resources on a platform that will generate no returns for them? People like Linux because it's free and open. Do you think the games will be free -or- open? Maybe, just maybe, an established developer will decide it's a cool idea, but even then, do you suppose the publisher will push a free/open game?
Anyone who already owns consoles won't waste their money, since they KNOW the Playstation 2 or Dreamcast (and even the DC is in rough waters) will get the games they want to play, and anyone wanting computer games get Win98 PC's with the NVIDIAs or the 3DFXs, because they KNOW the games they want to play will come out for their systems.
Let's face it, developers and/or publishers are already weary of releasing anything for the current Linux gamers, and being that it's doubtful 100% of those gamers will buy the Indrema, why would anyone think that it might be worthwhile releasing games to a fraction of a market the gaming industry doesn't care about already?
All in all, I was originally excited about this project but more and more ..what with content controls, etc, etc... it sounds like 'Just Another Console' (but from a company that can't afford $5 billion on the marketing push).
Oh well.
How much hardware support will you contribute to? What I mean is, I have a Microsoft force-feedback joystick. Will I be able to use it with your unit? How about other force feedback devices from other manufacturers? Many of these devices are USB; USB is just starting to gain ground with Linux. What effort will you be putting in to help support such devices.
Will it support AC3 so I can hook up my stereo?
Will it support DVI so I can hook a digital monitor or digital projector?
And, of course will it let me play my DVD's?
My first question is about possible connectivity of the indrema to an existing linux box. Will there be a way to interface to the box to an existing linux box to increase the storage capacity, ala exporting a drive off to the indrema using kerberos or nfs? How about firing up a terminal on the indrema?
The second question is obvious...the web site made no mention of an existing linux box being capable of running the indrema software. Will existing linux boxen with proper hardware reqs be able to play these games?
^D
<EOT>
Okay, so maybe that's a bit harsh, but it seems like you're risking a lot of money on a product which will give only minimal returns. Linux is simply not viable as a gaming platform at the moment, and indeed for the forseeable future. Like it or loathe it, DirectX support would go a long way to making Linux more popular with the kind of trigger-happy moron who enjoys playing Quake.
And then there's the fact that within a week of launch some hacker spouting Stallmanist rhetoric will have hacked into the box and posted instructions on how to do so onto the net for all and sundry to read. Hell, Taco'll probably help them out by posting a story on /. about it.
So my question is, where exactly is the market for this box and how will you generate a profit? It all seems like a pipe-dream to me.
I remember when you could play a 3d game without the need for an external 3d graphics card on a 486 and get by (I have the game in question on CD). I am wondering with the use of consoles based on linux are we ever going to see the really, really efficient games.
Also I have interest in the quality of the games in question. Most of the open source games have very little plot and in fact seem to be knock offs of really old (and quite frankly not that fun) games from the 80's and earlier. What would be nice is to see something with a Final Fantasy level of story and in depth plot to work with.
Respond to s
That's why I feel that Linux gaming will go nowhere; because it goes against the de facto nature of Linux.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Didn't you see? I said >20K/sec, not >20kbps. I mean transfer rate; 56kbps actually transfers at 4K/sec. That's wicked slow; god forbid you ever try to upload a core dump.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Will this thing have a segmentation fault every time I try to do something in a specific game? There is an unspoken law that game consoles should never crash. How will this system hold up to that?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Okay, we've got PS2, X-Box, and Nintendo Game Cube coming along. Why do we need another game console, even though it does run Linux? What advantage will this game console actually have over the others? As far as game consoles go, I'm not going to go buy one because it "runs linux" . . .
Linux is great for server, development and even many desktops and I use it both at work and at home exclusively. HOWEVER, Linux is missing (or semi-missing) several pieces to make it an excellent gaming platform: easy to install/configure high-end graphics and, of course, DVD. From the Linux community's point of view, it's great that Indrema will be pushing to better these--but what is the advantage from the Indrema point of view? What possible advantages could Linux have that would make you overlook the glaring flaws that Linux has as a gaming platform?
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Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)
I have an HDTV set and I'm very interested in Indrema's HDTV support. Does this box decode OTA
HDTV signals? If not, is there an expansion board
planned to add this functionality?