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Lunar Landing Historical Site?
kylv writes: "Check out this article on abcnews.com telling how a New Mexico group is trying to make the site of the first lunar landing into a National Historical Site."
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Do you? Why?
Mike.
Tales from behind the Lagom Curtain
We're whalers on the moon.
We carry a harpoon.
But there ain't no whales
so we tell tall tales
and sing our whaling tune!
I declare that you must call RF/Moon
You're smoking crack. Everyone I know calls it "GNU/Moon." Its pretty common knowledge that without the Gnu toolset, the Moon would just be a lifeless chunk of rock.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
Why do they want to make a covert NASA film studio into a historical site?
Read the article, then post you mindless yammering.
Because 99% of the mindless yammering on here is already clearly addressed in the article. For example:
The students don't want to claim the moon, which clearly would be a violation of the Outer Space Treaty.
Of course, I think about 75% of all posters to slashdot are violations of the Outer Space Treaty to begin with, so I guess maybe I'm hoping for too much.
The moon really isn't part of the US. Shouldn't this sort of thing be handled by the UN? They could make it a UN world heritage site, and you wouldn't have to worry about people fighting over the moon.
Weren't the moon landings faked someplace in New Mexico in the first place? ;-)
The same would apply to the Moon, treaties prevent that however. Although, nothing is stopping martians from moving to the moon and claiming it since they have not signed our treaties.
Mentioning the Sun got me thinking. How about national historic sites based on inventions? Like Edison's basement, etc. Now what does that have to do with the Sun. Well, I remember Robert Cringely pointing out that Sun Microsystems, Cisco Systems, and Silicon Graphics were all started out of the same computer science building at Stanford. That building, along with the Xerox PARC should definitely be on the National Register of Historic Places, if they are not already.
It does seem a bit self-centered, doesn't it? After we (the US) left a plaque up there inscribed witht he phrase "...we came in peace for all mankind..."
However, I really think there should be an historial preservation of the site -- the New Mexio group is on the right track, they just need to change their verbiage a bit.. maybe to a "United Nations Historical site"?
Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
but a lot of the stuff has no way of being used remotely too. The rover for example...it's not doing anything.
What about the food wrappers and the boots? do you think those are "not abandoned" too?
you mean...
If you are an american and you retrieve it, don't you?
I don't see how they'd convince some chinese guy that he has to give it back...
Before it can be a World Heritage site, it must be designated as a national landmark first.
I'm sure in due time if the Moon gets colonized someone will build a protective dome over at least Apollo 11's landing site.
I agree. We should protect that site, as a reminder of Humanity's first steps into space. Maybe a dome covered with a diamond film coating, a la Arthur C. Clarke's 2061.
It's not as if Muslims are going to be the next ones there and then decide that since that history was made by a non-muslim and therefore contradicts Allah or something and decide to burn it like the library of Alexandria.
Well, it's not as if it hadn't happened a thousand times during humanity's civilization times.
Like the Spaniards tearing down Pre-colombine buildings in order to build churches. Or Americans kicking Native Americans off their sacred lands in order to build oil lines or strip mines. Or shipping people out of some atoll in order to do nuclear tests there.
Let's face it, Humanity still has some way to go before we can all be, well, humane to each other, and I think that's a prerequisite to intelligent space exploration. In my opinion, of course.
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
Even more, I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when that issue came up at the NPS. "Hmm...hey, Joe, we got a guy on the phone who wants to know if we can declare a national historic site on the moon..."
Perhaps a larger, global organisation such as UNESCO, the UN, or else an international coalition of space agency's should declare it a protected area.
Sites such as Quebec City, the cradle of Canada, are labled as UNESCO world heritage sites, so why shouldn't humankind's first jaunt on the moon.
I am sure though that unesco would probably just write back a letter stating that "We have no jurisdiction over the moon"....
More Caffeine. NOW
Bova's long out-of-print novel Millennium, about the fight for independence waged by a joint US-Soviet moonbase (hey, it was written over 20 years ago!), includes a visit to the Apollo 11 site ... which has been preserved with a coating of plastic, so you can walk on it without disturbing the footprints.
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lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
You're so stupid, you should be banned from the internet.
The real S3Wilco has user ID 238583. Anyone else is a karma whore.
> Mount Pinatubo, Phillipines
;)
Naw I vote for Krakatoa
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Is that really what it says? That's a bit of a giggle.
"We came in peace": Except that it was only the Cold War that made them do such insanely risky things in such badly-engineered rockets. And there were all the theories about space-based weapons platforms, for which the Moon would be ideal.
"for all mankind": Yeah right. Then they plant a US flag to say, "We did it, not the Russkies". All mankind, apart from those who are Communist, Asian, African, or anyone else who isn't prepare to knuckle under when Uncle Sam throws a tantrum, apparently.
Yes, it was a great achievement, just as climbing Everest was a great achievement. But there's no intention of claiming Everest as a New Zealand national monument, just cos Hillary came from there. Some ppl are as bad as cats: "Ooh, this is mine, I've got to mark it as being mine, so everyone knows it's mine". For God's sake, guys...
Grab.
Visiting them all? Ambitious.
There's 630 UNESCO World Heritage Sites.
You better start travelling right now.
Just checked, I've only seen 8 of those sites so far in person.
It won't do any good to send oxygen with him, because he swears he won't inhale.
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Just read a short story last night in a collection. How We Lost the Moon... talks about the evacuation of lunar bases and how they saved the historic Apollo items - even digging out an Armstrong footprint. Nice read, IMHO.
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
I'm glad that this group is advancing the importance of the part of the moon that I bought a few years back. I plan to set up a Disney style exhibit there where people can go and relive that great first step on the moon. All the funding I can get. Please write your local govenment representative, and the UN.
nothing important to do but make issues out of things which are pointless. Historical site my ass. get a job you hippies ;-)
I don't think there are many countries out there with the technology to actually go mess with the site, and those that can probably won't, cause that'd just be an asshole thing to do. Meteors and whatnot may not be so selective when deciding where to slam material in to the moon's surface, but I don't think they recoginze US historical site boundries anyways.
Nice thought, good to recognize a significant step in human history, but at least make it a global thing. Maybe some sort of new thing, like a Humanity Historical Treasure (I think that sounds sufficiently corny to work),
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Um, no. The Soviets went to the moon.
"Whoever gets their first"
The operative word being "Who". The Soviets never sent a "who", only a "what" (i.e., robotic probes).
The U.S. is only nation that has sent "who"s to the moon. Not to be confused with "The Who"'s Keith Moon.
or not at all... why does it need to be a (national|international|anything else) heritage site? Protection from rampant real estate developers and yobbish tourists? I think not.
Ignoring for a moment the fact (if what I've read is to be believed) that the earthbound National Parks folks spend a lot more of their budget on building private logging roads than they do on preservation...
I live not far from an overseas US National Monument, IIRC - there is a war memorial at Runymede, just outside Windsor that is a 'square mile of US soil' or something along those lines. Great big slab of a memorial, similar to the Vietnam Memorial in DC.
Hmm - those three paragraphs don't really join up much, eh?
"don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
They might want to find out if the lunar landing sites could qualify as UNESCO World Heritage sites. Then it's clearly "for all humanity", and they might get worldwide support for the idea.
If that is the Goal of the movement then I may change my attitude that it is a total farce, but I get the feeling that it is just a one-up-manship ploy of someone to claim the moon as bieng US turf.
"Technology lies on the leading edge of life" Rush
Probably voiced best by Warner Brothers The Goofy Gophers:
Mac: They're going to have a terrible time getting that Historical Marker up there!
Tosh: Terrible, just terrible!
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I hope there aren't any barcodes on the moon, because we wouldn't want the feds impinging on D:C's business model.
I would tend to agree. The USA should attempt to get the nations of the WORLD involved in this. In other words it should be a world historic site.
Yes we [USA] were the ones to get there but I think in the spirit of Armstrong and this nation we should give it to the world.
If that isn't possible then the USA should attempt to protect the site by making it a national historic site.
Like the Spaniards tearing down Pre-colombine buildings in order to build churches.
Come to think of it, I think even the ancient Greeks kind of did that with their own buildings. I hear the area is kind of active seismically, so they didn't all last for millennia like what is still standing, so if a structure came down, it went up redesigned with the stones of the old buildings. Not as bad, but still. There are some temple ruins in which some stones can be traced to use in like three different structures over the ages.
Any more wrong than the Mexicans seizing the territory from Spain, the Spanish seizing it from the natives, or each group of natives seizing it from the previous group of natives?
-- Roberta Derbyshire
The only thing Microsoft makes that doesn't crash will be a planetary probe . . .
funny munging
Not until the moon has a country that joins the UN. Since no nation owns the moon, the United Nations shouldn't have any power there.
Most certainly, these objects are *STILL* in use by NASA - mostly to study the effects of space radiation on equipment, and there are definite plans to come back to the landing sites at some point and do an analysis on the materials.
The last man on the moon left his Hasselblad camera lens pointing up at the stars on the lunar rover passenger seat. (Lunar astronauts were issued their own Hasselblads, and remained their property after the missions were completed)
He was thinking, as he was packing up, whether or not to retrieve it - but decided that leaving it there on the seat, facing the stars, would be a good way to collect cosmic particles - in the *lens* of the camera - for later analysis during some future mission.
That's how focused these guys and many of the other NASA moon hipsters were on the importance of the science they were working on.
So to assume that just because the gear up there is not being *used* does *NOT* mean that the equipment is not part of a further scientific mission. Modern-day standards for "junk propagation" do not apply when you're studying materials, space, etc.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
If someone (or more likely someones) decided to be boorish enough to claim the, ahh errr, artifacts at Tranquility Base as private property to be sold to the highest bidder, there is not much the US could do about it. First, You would have to be there to stop them. (not likely) Second, I think the most likely way a court of law would handle this would be to apply the same standards as salvage on the high seas. But come on, not abbandoned? Has there ever been any plan to retrive this debri? What are those plans, specificaly? I hope that by the time we are ready to return to the moon we have matured beyound the point of feeling the need to place armed guards around a pile of old litter.
The ball is near the javelin, that straight line in a crater. Try the text description of the image. The image is also described in this transcript of Apollo 14 EVA-2, as well as the javelin throw and golfing.
http://www.fre esp eech.org/sharelist/SHACTEMP/archives/000622.html
Account of Huntingdon Life Sciences [UK]- researchers who do animal research, they suffer a daily barrage of abuse, have been firebombed and are effectively under seige from animal rights protestors.
Genetically modified crops are frequently destroyed in the field and when in test because "We don't know what might happen".
Guess we aren't always as enlightened as we think we are.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
Than New Mexico for this sort of thing...
/me thinks of Roswell
The anti-salmon
Couldn't have been too bad: the Saturn V used for the Apollo and Skylab missions had a 100% success rate.
Before that, yeah, there was a bit of a learning curve.
Little Debian: America's #1 Snack Distro!
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It's my belief that my big balls should be held every night.
For GM stuff, I understand the concerns, but there is no way to know "what might happen" unless we try it, eh? From what I understand, most GM is simply an extention of hybridization, cutting down the time involved I believe. Hybridization has been studied for what? 150 years?
Concerning the parent post, I didn't know as much about Alexandria as I thought I did.
Basically, the point is that we mustn't destroy information simply because we don't agree with it. Everyone changes their mind over time in just about everything. One may regret their own actions after any period of time, from minutes to decades.
Death and taxes are certain. Stupidity seems even more certain.
To take a nice vacation there? Sorta chilly I would think...Wear a nice warm sweater.
The anti-salmon
Do they mean the site where we "landed: on the moon? Or do they mean the site in Arizona where everyone knows the whole thing was faked? __________________________________
"If IE is 'just a web browser' then emacs is 'just a text editor'."
I find it sad that humanity assumes we "own" the moon, as well as the earth, and everything else we come upon.
In the end, we'll probably wreck it like we messed up here.
"Darn, my winmodem won't work with Linux? I'll have to recompile it... with my blowtorch."
To make a site a historical site? Are they gonna put some plaques up there? (I know I spelled plaques wrong)
I would like to know where they got all that crack.
The anti-salmon
Considering that it's not even on the planet it should be considered to be the same as say, space itself IE: not under UN juristidiction because, really, it's in space. It's not even a GLOBAL historic site- it's an INTERPLANITARY historic site, and we don't have an Interplanitary Historic Society yet.
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ADVENTURERS! - ANTIHERO FOR HIRE - CARDMASTER CONFLICT
Leaving aside the bizarre notion of calling an area of the *moon* a "*National* Historical Site"...
;)
The article continues...
> There seems to be no doubt the artifacts are clearly U.S. property. Even NASA says the stuff left behind by the Apollo astronauts was "not abandoned," according to documents collected by the researchers.
Not abandoned? "Oh no, we really were intending to come back for it (in a few hundred years)." We weren't really littering on the moon Sir...
Anyway, *I* have some doubt, even if nobody else does. I think the Chinese should get up there quick and grab it and then auction it off to the US administration if they really think it's theirs
Mike.
Tales from behind the Lagom Curtain
It would be difficult to call the moon a *national* monument. If I remember correctly, the moon is classified by the UN the same way Anartica is: no one owns it. How can the US declare something like that, if we don't own the moon. It seems to me that the UN would be required to do something like that...
Doh!
But it will be the people who eventually live there that will decide this... not some foreign government!
It seems like establishing a national monument on the moon or any other extraterrestrial body is a step over the line established by the various international treaties regarding space.
i would love to join...i think...what does the membership require? If i have to drool over natalie portman or something i don't want it...
The anti-salmon
Seriously, a moon base will not be born into fruition until someone starts visiting again.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Well, I suppose the visitor's center won't be doing much business then.
I thought the guy from Sealand grabbed it when no one was looking.
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The truth is out th- oh, wait, here it is...
And the golf club is on display at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC. Stepping into the main lobby of the NASM is simply awesome as they have the Voyager (1st around the world, non-stop, no refueling), X-1 (Yeager's plane), Wright 1903 Flyer, the X-15, and the Spirit of St Louis hanging from the ceiling.
That's a great idea, because not only is that the most important thing we could ever hope to know, but we're not able to generate gamma rays in the lab to test their effects on a US flag!
120 characters isn't enough to explain it.
Of course people from New Mexico would want it declared a national historical site. After all, when they faked the landing, all the filming was done on NM's turf.
-Chris
I thought everyone knew the Moon belonged to Radio Shack.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Crap. If this continues, there won't be ANYWHERE on the moon to ride my dirtbike.
The United Nations has a program by which important sites are designated as "World Heritage Sites" (i think that's the name) for cultural reasons. Usually these are historically important things such as the Roman Forum. I think it would be more appropriate for the moon landings and indeed probably all solar system landing sites (pathfinder, viking, the melted soviet probes on Venus) should be designated as such. There are enforcement issues but it is probably the best thing to do now.
"Abandoned" has a specific legal connotation, and NASA is correct to say that the material was not "abandoned."
By way of analogy, "flotsam" and "jetsam" are not the same thing and are legally very different. If I recall the sense correctly, "flotsam" is the floating debris (and debris washed ashore?) after a ship goes down - anyone may acquire legal possession by simply scooping it out of the water.
"Jetsam," in contrast, is floating debris that was deliberately thrown overboard in an attempt to save the ship, and with the intent to retrieve the material after the storm (or other crisis) has passed. Anyone who scoops it out of the water is stealing it from its lawful owner. Even if the ship ultimately sinks, the owner of the ship still has the legal ownership of jetsam.
(As I said, it's been a long time since I looked at the exact definitions and I may have the sense backwards.)
"Jetsam" was temporary left behind, but it was not legally abandoned. "Flotsam" was abandoned. Anything that goes down with the ship was not, and for some period is owned by the owner of the ship (or the insurance company that paid a claim), although courts have (finally!) come to their senses and said that an insurance company can't protest too much after 100+ years have passed with no attempt at recovery.
NASA, quite legitimately, is considering the material left on the moon "jetsam." They left it behind so they could get the crew home, but I'm sure in the best of all possible worlds they would have the complete lunar lander sitting in a display at the Smithsonian.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
So, when the blokes from Proxima Centari make it here to our part of the galaxy, they are going to see that olive branch and think "Hmmm...that's the UNIVERSAL sign of peace - turn the warships around - this is a kind planet."
Or they are gonna dissenegrate the earth because not it not only obscures their view of Venus, but because they dared make a mock idol of the precious holy olive leaf.
Universal my ass.
And from now on, I declare that you must call RF/Moon, so that everyone will know the great effort I put into making it available in the sky for the good of all humanity.
If you are modding me down because you disagree with me, use the "Flamebait" category, not the "Troll" one.
The Moon belongs to America, and anxiously awaits the arrival of our astro-men. Will you be among them? -- 4F21, The Secret War of Lisa Simpson
... sand ... SAND!
sand
Why don't we bring back the items we left on the moon and put them in a museum or study them to see what long term effects do gamma rays and what not have on the items?
- Micro$oft
No drooling is required. You, however have to uphold the holy tradition of being a Troll while pretending to hate Trolls while you're really just flaming Trolls and generally not making any sense whatsoever.
Understanding the above will certainly get you rejected.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Whoever gets there first can claim the land. And to date, no other nation has been to the moon.
"We came in peace for all Mankind."
- Neil Armstrong at Tranquility Base, 1969
than you calling Navajo, Hopi, and the like "Mexico" . . .
:)]
And for that matter, those aren't even accurate--the American Indians got those lands by killing off the Native Americans that were there first . . .
[And while I'm at, it, no sillier than calling parts of the U.S> "Mexico" and "Candaa"
/hawk ducks
Think about it, with the lunar landing site declared a monument, that will prevent further deforestation of the area and help preserve the multitude of flora and fauna that call it home.
MOON FIRST!
-Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music.
Don't we need a ribbon cutting ceremony? Send that perjuring excuse for a president up there, send him out to cut the ribbon, then while he makes one of his long-winded speeches, every else hops back in the lander, takes off, and . . .
:)
You see, if we leave enough oxygen & food for the rest ofhis term, he's not incapacitated, the veep doesn't take over, but he still can't do anything. We'd be safe from government for a good four months . . .
:)
hawk, who should probably fix his computer instead of worrying about this
THe link notes,
> The Soviet Lunar program had 20 successful missions to the Moon and
> achieved a number of notable lunar "firsts": first probe to impact the
> Moon,
Crashing into the moon counts? THen shouldn't Microsoft be in the lunar
probe business?
:)
hawk
That's gonna be one tough stamp to get in my National Park's Passport! I wonder how much the NPS will spend to build a restroom up there?
One had to stay back to fly the CSM. Kinda sorry that I forgot that!
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
To be fair to the Muslims, they only burned down half of the Library of Alexandria. The other half was burned down two centuries earlier (c. 390 AD) by a Chrisitian mob.
We live in good times. Here's what happened to people interested in science and learning in the 4th century:
For more on the Library of Alexandria, see:
http://www.hamwic.co.uk/lo st_ worlds/alex/library.html
sig semper tyrannis!
If the U.S. had made territorial claims then, it really would have made has of the "we come in peace for all mankind" plaque the astronauts left there, plus more importantly needlessly heated up the rhetoric level of the cold war. It hadn't been that long ago that we had come dangerously close to a nuclear exchange during the Cuban missile crisis.
:) Similarly, anyone else who makes a real stake on the Moon would hardly be inclined to honor a territorial stake made in 1969 and not enforced.
Besides, I think we finally learned during the Phillipine Insurrection that we can not be both a "nation of the free" and a imperialistic power, at least not in style. Claiming tracts of land just to claim them is out of style anyway. The game today is to manipulate the natives already there so they hand you their resources (or a right to setup toxic polluting plants) cheaply. That's why Arabia was portioned out by the British into big countrys that mainly have no resources and little sheikdoms that are the balance of OPEC today.
Only on the Moon, there aren't any natives, nor any resources worth the freight to haul them back to Earth. (even if we had the means to do so.) If anyone claims the Moon, it'll be the one who actually goes and stays, and their claim willd depend on how far they want to go and how much others will contest them.
Centuries ago, the Pope divided South America between Spain and Portugal. Go there now and you'll find a distinct lack of flags from either country. ('course Portugal only had Brazil.
(sign on lunar lander monument)
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"It was people! People soiled our green!"
LunaCorp is planning to send a robotic vehicle to the moon for a Grand Apollo Tour of historic landing sites.
This is a commercial venture and the money will supposedly come from letting people be telepresent at the location in real time (minus lightspeed lag) and even drive the rover by remote control.
I wonder if declaring them a national monument will have any legal effect on LunaCorp's plans.
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Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
OK guys, so how much would you pay for the Golf Ball on ebay anyway?
Well, I don't think it was "over the horizon" when it was visible in a picture from the Lunar Module [picture in direction of Turtle Rock]. Shepard estimated "the first ball went about 200 yards (183 meters) and the second 400 yards (366 meters)".