Slashdot Mirror
2 Views of Hackers
zonker writes "CNN has an interesting perspective on hacking with two opposing yet, somewhat complementary views. They have an interview with 2600's Emmanuel Goldstein vs. IBM's Charles Palmer. Goldstein tries to explain the hacker ethic and big media's clueless portrayal of 'hackers' in general. Palmer draws hackers in a more corporate eye. Draw your own conclusions."
It would be pathetic to not understand that alias... Hopefully it's a higher percentage than .5%...
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"To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
"But if a stranger came into your house, looked through everything, touched several items, and left (after building a small, out of the way door to be sure he could easily enter again), would you consider that harmless?" - Charles Palmer
Let's just say my house is e*trade.
Number one, I lock my house, I hope you lock your house. So in order to get in you probably have to find that open window on the third floor that someone left unlocked. I leave it unlocked because, hell, no one's come in it before, why lock it. So we aren't talking about just walking in the front door anymore.
Now lets say that in my house (e*trade) I store your personal and financial information. You know that my third floor window is open, you even tell me on more than one occasion that I should probably lock it. I hear you, but just blatantly and recklessly ignore you. So, you break in to my house and wander around, realizing that anyone could have done this. I come home and find a big note on my front-door, it says, I came into your house, but don't worry, I locked the window when I left.
-Redial+1
When put in the way you put it I have to change my thinking some! Maybe there needs to be a paradigm shift withe the hackers that do not want to be associated withe the vandals and criminals. I do not know if or how that would happen though. I guess I will just have to continue to definr hacker everytime I use it to people so I do not get lumped into the group I do not want to be associated with.
"Technology lies on the leading edge of life" Rush
And I think I did pretty damn good considering I'm just an uneducated 20 year old slob *cough* *cough*.
But since your bio says you're a linguistics graduate.. maybe you could enlighten the dung-flinging masses out here with your wisdom on the subject.. instead of just tearing into people and being a elitist pseudo-intellectual.
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Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I thought slashdot was a forum for technology-related news and information.
I never realised it was supposed to be a forum for criminals and the arseholes who romanticise them. My mistake obviously. Perhaps the masthead shoul;d be changed to "Stuff for criminals. Felonies that matter" in that case...
You arse!
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
Still, it's better than if he were to use the name Winston Smith. The people who recognize the reference might wonder about how sure of himself he is.
And in other news, someone has just worked out how to cut up a furby.
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My sincerest apologies to Queen Vaseline. However, Princess Amygdala, Duchess Amygdala, and all similar non-Queen names just didn't sound right.
I will not condone a course of action that will raise my karma.
So, it's still an interesting article and I am glad they posted it, because otherwise, I wouldn't have known about it. I'm sure 95 percent of the people here would say the same.
I guess what bothered me the most was that Palmer had a chance to introduce his credentials, and even make a plug for his consulting business, advertising what they're doing, etc. It just struck me that he's in the business of stopping 'them pesky and dangerous, illegal hackers,' Of course he's going to say they're illegal. The more people fear system intrusions (done by anybody, regardless of what you call them), the more they're going to pay for his services...
This idea that we live in a world of "Big Business versus the hacker" is overly simplistic. Yes, the relationship sometimes seems strained, but not in a remote warring/adversarial sort of way --- it's more like the strains of a marriage!
:-)
The fact of the matter is that Big Business relies on us utterly. You can put as many venture capitalists, directors, managers, lawyers and politicians together as you like, and not one useful product of the modern age will emerge from their combined talents. In contrast, we produce things that the whole modern world uses as a matter of course, whether or not we're paid to do it. They are merely facilitators for our work and nothing else, and we work for them because we want to be "facilitated" --- more toys please!!
Given this basic symbiotic relationship, they really can't get rid of hackers (hardware or software), because hackers are merely the higher profile representatives of the technical community as a whole. If they tried to clamp down it would very much throw away the baby with the bathwater, because at heart virtually every techie is a hacker and feels for the famous ones. And it's very counter-productive to piss off a good techie, because the world is currently our oyster and becoming ever more so. Moving to another job is almost always synonymous with a pay increase; our skill sets tend to grow with each new employment.
So, if you hear Big Business saying nasty things about us, read between the lines to see who actually wrote them. Almost always it'll be the lawyers and business managers who think they are in control but are utterly clueless about the real underpinnings of their tech-based industry. They're the telephone sanitizers that were packed off in the 'B' Ark in Hitchhikers, although I suspect Douglas Adams was perhaps a little too generous in his portrayal.
We can afford to ignore them, just like the non-public "real" Big Business does, ie. ignoring its own public statements and doing whatever it must in order to keep the cash flow flowing. (For example, paying lip service to the music/film studios while producing MP3 and multi-region capable DVD players in vast quantities.)
That's the real world. The paper pushers think they hold a spoon, but those that actually produce the goods in the billion-dollar industries know that it's just hot air.
The real pecking order in this world is not the one that makes the evening news. The only reason why this is not all that obvious is that the average techie is a bit of a sleeper and so his or her power is latent. I rather suspect that waking that power by being too nasty to us is not in the best interests of Big Business. The modern gold is tech, and we have the Midas touch.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
If you've spent any time here, you know damn well that the real definition of 'hacker' has nothing to do with criminal activity. I won't dignify your attitude with more response than that.
Well, here's my take on all this. (I know I'm probably not saying anything new, but here it is anyway.) It seems to me that, as the hacker community has grown and evolved over the past couple of decades, it has broken into splinter groups - factions, if you will - each espousing their own definition of the term "hacker" - each with their own spin on what the true hacker ethic is. Getting these factions to agree on the meaning of "hacker" is probably akin to getting the republicans and the democrats to agree on the best health care plan.
Instead of defining and redefining the term "hacker," I would like to see someone develop a comprehensive taxonomy of the hacker community. I someone has done this, I'd like to know about it.
When I started using computers in school (1981), it was the Apple ][. Arcade games were popular, and games similar to their popular arcade counterparts were sold for the Apple computer on copy protected media.
A copy of the game was said to be cracked when it was duplicated to a standard format disk with modifications so that it would run from the standard disk instead of the original copy protected format. The "crackers" who did these deeds almost always added a startup screen early in the boot process that proclaimed their deeds. The word "cracked" was universally used in these startup screens.
As a display of their great skills, the "crackers" would greatly compress their images, usually with custom coded compression (8 bit 6502 asm code), and display them very early in the boot process, so that the image would appear almost immediately. Great effort was expended in these start up screens, some even animated through the boot process. Every "cracker" wanted whoever got ahold of their work to know who "cracked" it, even though only though a useless alias name.
Everyone I knew who was "into computers" wanted to learn how to "crack" protected disks. Sometime in about '85 ot '86, I went to some user group meetings. There was a guy there who supposedly was a "cracker" and there was much interest in a seminar or workshop about cracking.
Towards the end of my high-school days (1988), I became pretty good with assembly and I was given a copy of "beneth apple dos", and together with lots of text files downloaded from "cracking BBSs", I eventually learned how to "crack" many of the current protection schemes. I never created any of those silly startup screens!
The one computer teacher at the school (who did know a tiny bit of pascal and could do simple things in applesoft basic) saw some lame show on TV and believed that "cracking" applied to modem based activities, and "hacking" refered to non-network jobs, including breaking copy protection. My believe was more or less the opposite. We had a long arguement... the fact that virtually every single pirated program had a startup image saying "cracked by XXXX" obviously meant nothing compared to the obviously true documentary as seen on TV.
So maybe I was wrong, but it's a fact that the word "cracked" was used on all those little startup images on hundreds of de-protected games. The 80's are ancient history now-a-days, but indeed the word "crack" was certainly in widespread use way back then.
The word "phreaking" (or something similar) was commonly used (1980's) to refer to telephone mods used to get free phone calls or other phone system tricks. I read about these things, but I had little interest and it seemed quite risky.
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
he should read 1984 because it's one of the best books ever written. Let me add that "1984" should be read in English. I first read it in spanish, and the translations on Newspeak weren't quite as powerful as in the original English.
Having said that, I'll recommend "A brave new world", too.
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
Interesting definitions on "hacker" and "cracker"
Hacker:
A slang term for a computer enthusiast. Among professional programmers, the term hacker implies an amateur or a programmer who lacks formal training. Depending on how it used, the term can be either complimentary or derogatory, although it is developing an increasingly derogatory connotation. The pejorative sense of hacker is becoming more prominent largely because the popular press has coopted the term to refer to individuals who gain unauthorized access to computer systems for the purpose of stealing and corrupting data. Hackers, themselves, maintain that the proper term for such individuals is cracker.
Cracker:
Security
hacker
phreaking
smurf
Give Us Your
Feedback
(1) To break into a computer system. The term was coined in the mid-80s by hackers who wanted to differentiate themselves from individuals whose sole purpose is to sneak through security systems. Whereas crackers sole aim is to break into secure systems, hackers are more interested in gaining knowledge about computer systems and possibly using this knowledge for playful pranks. Although hackers still argue that there's a big difference between what they do and what crackers do, the mass media has failed to understand the distinction, so the two terms -- hack and crack -- are often used interchangeably.
(2) To copy commercial software illegally by breaking (cracking) the various copy-protection and registration techniques being used.
OK, I don't want to get too involved in this discussion, but I just have to say this:
Sorry, but one of the sense of "hacker" IS "someone who break security". It's only recently that people have decided that they don't like the criminal aspect to that behavior, and so are trying to chop off that definition and place it into "cracker".
Shouldn't that say, "...and so are trying to hack off that definition..."?
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
aparently the crackers ^H^H^H^H^H^H hackers ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H er...criminals ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H folks who broke into slashdot are more devious than we thought.
they must have reset all the system dates!
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
nuff said.
note to self: preview button.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
There would be almost no attacks if software and administration were done with security in mind.
This IBM lewser recommends firewalls. It may prevent many things, but why were the servers unsecure on the first place! You can filter packets on each server. You can close unused services (ie. rpc, anon ftp, nfs). You can have a decent account and password policy. You can use heavy crypto. You can stop using telnet and the such.
What remains are just a very small part of the problem!
Sourcerors.
'Nuff said.
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"I already have all the latest software."
So, you propose turning over control of the english language to the media? So what if there defenition is deferent than mine, I'm not about to start using some media buzzword defenition of the word hacker, when a more acurate defenition exists. Someone who breaks into computers, and destroys personal property, is by my defenition a criminal.
We're the techies and the geeks here. This is our profession, this is our playground. As with any profession, we have our own set of jargon. A set of jargon which is frequently screwed up and misrepresented by the general public.
In the same way that your doctor groans whenever you walk into the office proclaiming what ills you (but showed up anyway) and requesting a specific remedy without letting him do his job, computer geeks get incensed when you use the wrong term, poorly describe the problem, and then become belligerant that your solution is The One that'll work.
I don't tell doctors what to call Ecoli or what a phage is, so I don't expect them to tell me what a computer virus is or how the linux kernel works.
We defined this set of jargon, and it's up to US, not THEM to determine its use. If they screw it up, that's their fault, not ours. If it leads to miscommunication and disinformation it is THEIR fault, NOT ours. If they are muddling in the affairs of computer professionals and using terms without knowing what they mean, they deserve to be flammed for it. They're doing the world a disservice.
We use jargon to effect rapid communication between others in the profession. While it may seem elitist to create a language for solely our use, consider the alternative - using existing language. We have acronyms and words to describe *exactly* what we are thinking. Go and start changing that around and you'll have a communication problem.
It's our duty to correct this problem before we find ourselves speaking each in different dialects. This is a matter of linguistics and communication... not pride.
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What about people like me who don't give a damn? :)
Ah. So you're saying that because everyone on the planet refers to kilograms as a measurement of weight, the physicists should too? I don't see any other good word to refer to someone who likes tinkering with technology, so I'll keep using the proper meaning of hacker.
-RickHunter
I agree. Hacking skills can be used for criminal activity. So can police skills, accounting skills, and (in this case) journalism skills.
I was disappointed at their entire feature. From their hacking "primer":
If they'd actually interviewed any number of hackers properly, they should have known that "hacker" was the wrong word for what they were talking about.
If I can't do anything else, I'm going here and submitting some feedback to CNN expressing this, politely of course. Here's what I'm posting and I hope others can say something similar:
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You go try finishing a project when not one person knows what the bloody fuck you're talking about. If hackers were users: "I have memory, 20 Gigs of it. All the memory in the world for MP3s." "You broke the cd-rom. How am I supposed to do my spreadsheets without Microsoft? Now I have to buy another cd-rom." If that's confusing it's because the user called the computer the cdrom and called Excel Microsoft. Hacker = builder came first. You're living in the 1980-2000 time frame. Computer operating systems have been around for decades. The computer itself was invented over 100 years ago. The automobile even before that. Hacking is dealing with the raw reality of what you are creating. Some people might call that roughing it... that's not what I'm suggesting. Roughing it means willingly getting rid of useful items. Hacking means starting from scratch because the currently available tools are stale, rusted, and clumsy. When someone builds an operating system they don't have any API or documentation or tools to work with. They only have basic principles like generality, stability, efficiency. There IS NO ROADMAP. Programmers simply build products. Hacking = ER Programming = Presribing cold medicine.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
i wholeheartedly agree with your post with one caveat.
Goldstein doesn't call those who break into computers "crackers." - he still calls them hackers...you might re-read the article to see why. On this point, i firmly agree with him. The underground would have us believe that all hackers are white-hat individuals who only do good, whilst crackers are all evil and sinister. I prefer to believe that hacker is an ethic of curiosity, whether you chose to use the knowledge you've gained in these pursuits are good or evil is moot. And so, i will call (some) people who break into sites hackers based on their level of curiosity and knowledge about computers, etc.
However, because they break into systems illegaly, i will call them criminals.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Err... that should be Emmanuel Goldstein.
Dude, we are magicians. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." An appropriate reading selection might also be A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court .
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
after looking behind me i have noticed a collection of re-animated corpses following me, calling me master and asking for brains to eat. how'd they get there? i guess i am a magician. wish someone would have told me beforehand. does anyone know how to get rid of these blasted things!
INTERACTIVE
great comedy company.
Or maybe they were just trying to be compliant with Judge Kaplan's ruling...
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
Did anyone else feel a chill run down their spine when Charles Palmer said: >>Innovations like biometrics and smart cards will go a long way toward making security easier for the end user as well as for the system administrators. ????
anyone notice how much goldstein looks like rowan atkinson (mr. bean) in the cnn photo? i think i'm on to something, and it's more than just crank.
INTERACTIVE
great comedy company.
--
"It was hell!" recalls former child.
Oh yeah, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.
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this opposing viewpoints interview section has been around forever.
it was announced in april in this story.
jon
-- http://www.cerastes.org
Oh, the real definition. A word means what I say it means, eh Humpty Dumpty?
Well I'm sorry, but I've read the jargon file, and I don't consider it to be the fount of all knowledge and wisdom thank you very much. In fact I consider it to be a pile of cliquey self-important toss generated by brainfried hippies and people who think being able to use a computer makes them SOOOOOO important....
I go by the majority definition, which is:- 1. COMPUTING somebody accessing another's computer: somebody who uses computer expertise to gain unauthorized access to a computer system belonging to another, either to learn about the system or to examine its data
I think you'll find that the set of people who have never even heard of the jargon file overrules the set of people who have read it and hang off its every word.
Clinging on to the old jargon file definiton of the word "hacker" is every bit as ludicrous as people who clung on to the old definition of the world "gay"
Get real
Get a life
Get a fucking dictionary
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
The media loves to use the word hacker to describe what we know as a cracker (or even a script kiddie in some cases). Don't expect them to clear this up. With stuff like DeCSS-vs-MPAA and Napster-vs-RIAA, Big Media now thinks of techie hotshots as 'the enemy' and will continue to do what they can to make us look bad to the mainstream. What better way to do so than to make Joe SixPak think that the smart kid who plays MP3's at home is the same kid who breaks into Pentagon computers and tries to launch nuclear missiles?
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Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Charles Palmer writes:
We have Ph.D.s in physics, computer scientists, and even one former photographer with a fine arts degree. They are all well-known, highly respected system security professionals from around the world.
And who do you think we have in the hacker community, Charles? Exactly the same. Except that we have a hell of a lot more PhDs and real security professionals (the ones that do the exact same work quietly without writing papers about it) here than you have in your "ethical" team.
The difference seems to be mainly that we know the world isn't black and white, whereas you're quite clearly in possession of The One Truth on the ethical front. Perhaps the interview portrayed you in a bad light, but the image was of your own making. You shouldn't have been playing to the gallery.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I remember seeing this about a year ago..
here
A Hacker is one who defeats an OS's security for whatever reason.
(...)Slashdot was hacked. Got it?
Does anyone know where I can download the new kernel for Slashdot? I heard it's far more secure than Linux and the *BSDs... I'm thinking of installing it in a spare 486.
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This space left intentionally blank.
Um, no, the appropriate terms are "warez d00d" and "script kiddie". Anyone with demonstratable skill is already a hacker under the old definition. The rest are children trying to be cool.
Speaking of trying to be cool, I swear, I don't think Corely is too far removed from the mindset of that movie "Hackers". The dogma in his interview is so thick with fanboyish identity worship I kept expecting him to scream out "HACK THE PLANET!"
The IBM guy is a lot closer to the truth. But his interview is still corporate propoganda, trying to paint the picture that anyone interested in computer secruity is a social misfit who gets his jollies trashing other people's machines. He couldn't have been more clearer if he said "hire us to test your security, you can't trust it to those sociopathic kids!"
Why are all sides of this issue so full of crap?
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I don't care how old this article is, EG says something in it that I wish all the non-techies would latch onto:
Instead of arguing over the definition of hackers and crackers, let's just say this:
If you commit a crime while "exploring", you are a criminal.
If you do not commit a crime, then you are not a criminal.
Then, all we need to do is get the people who write the laws to understand what should be a crime and what shouldn't. Easy, right? hah. This is why the EFF exists, I suppose...
This thing is so fscking old! In fact I used this reference for a college paper LAST YEAR!
/. will post anything even if it's older than Jesus Christ himself!
I guess
Lets get a grip folks!
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Why should you? Because some moron^H^H^H^H^H nerd think that reading this book will reveal everything about "the realities of the world under Big Brother". Now THAT'S pathetic!
"The enemy" don't fucking care about you. I advise you to quit playing games on your peecee. Go outside, meet people, get a life!
He was talking about the character. In the book, the fictional character Goldstein writes a manifesto against the fictional government. It's all fiction, and nowhere does he suggest it's fact. I suggest the book be read just because so many are aware of it, it's part of the cultural conversation right now, and because so many idiots cite it in situations where it has no relevance. 1984 should be read so he can become more involved in the cultural conversation. You, on the other hand, are welcome to fuck off.
-jpowers
-jpowers
I think it boils down to this: hackers make things work, crackers break things. Finding a hole in slashcode and bringing it to light is making something work [better]. Reverse-engineering software so you can use it in a manner it wasn't meant to be used (DeCSS, CueCat, etc., etc.) is hacking.
First off, let's analyze that last phrase. "Cracking," is wrong because it's illegal, Correct? However, if you talk to some well-paid lawyers, reverse engineering and distributing certain information (DeCSS, CueCat) is also illegal. Making it wrong.
Second, there's no such great divide between "hackers" and "crackers." Crackers are a SUBSET of hackers. Obviously they didn't come out of the womb breaking into servers, they need to have certain degree of skill to do what they do. Many extremely proficient "crackers" (not wannabes) have a FAR greater knowledge of computers and operating systems than your average celebrity "hacker."
But you don't hear about them because they can't afford to be popular.
jesus fing CHRIST! /. posts this same stupid article every 9 months or so as if it is new. THE DAMN THING IS AT LEAST 3 YEARS OLD!!! THIIS IS THE 3rd TIME /. HAS POSTED IT ON THE FRONT PAGE!!!
Visit DC2600
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
"But if a stranger came into your house, looked through everything, touched several items, and left (after building a small, out of the way door to be sure he could easily enter again), would you consider that harmless?" Oddy enought though this is eaxctly the privelege corporations would like to reserve for themselves. I would like to hear Palmer explain how some of the recent methods used to track people around the web are not "hacking" by his defintion!
This sounds like a case ofGodwin's Law
"It's because they're stupid. That's why everybody does everything."- Homer Jay Simpson
First of all, no matter how bad the picture is, they can't get hit for libel - "cameras don't lie"
Next off, they even get to control the impression they give of someone in an article like this one, where there is no written content.
Whoever modded you offtopic was out to lunch - the photo (which, if you ask me, looks a bit too thuggish for Rowan Atkinson) is a perfect demonstration of what CNN is trying to do to Emmanuel Goldstein's image. Incidentally, does anyone have any idea which mega-media-internet-conglomerate CNN is part of?
What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht
...they just have different perspectives.
In essence, it's an argument about the power of knowledge. The self-proclaimed hacker culture view this power as necessary for learning and promises that they can be trusted to use the power for good (and anyway, they're just helping improve systems). The coporate view is that they can't trust people to always behave well and must therefore do everything they can to limit that power (and since realistically unexploitable system aren't feasible, the "help" is not appreciated).
While a cracker might view a new exploit as an opporunity to learn and to expland his or her accumen, the parties being cracked must view the exploit itself as damage. Whether the cracker actually was benign or not, the hacked systems must be viewed with suspicion, and a huge expense must be incurred in cleaning those systems and all data must be viewed as compromised.
Frankly, I find the cracker point of view more than a little naive.
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
I agree sincerely with his belief that you can't just use "cracker" as a catchall for anyone who breaks into a system or anyone who "breaks the law"
I think it boils down to this: hackers make things work, crackers break things. Finding a hole in slashcode and bringing it to light is making something work [better]. Reverse-engineering software so you can use it in a manner it wasn't meant to be used (DeCSS, CueCat, etc., etc.) is hacking.
Of course I'm neither a hacker nor a cracker. The extent of my hacking skills is editing a Makefile, and the extent of my cracking skills is teardropping a friend's Win95 box (he gave me permission). But I like to think that I know at least a little bit of what hacking is about. And the thing is, the media will never get it. Why? Because "Herbert Smith ports foo to operating system bar" is much less exciting than "Korean hackers break into government site" on the 5:00 news.
-- "Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage." -Naomi Littlebear
I've never seen an explaination for why if Eric Corely thinks what he is doing is ethical, why he hides behind a false name that sounds suspiciously real.
Note, I have nothing wrong against using handles for say, slashdot or CB radio (such as what I'm using now, bugg) but to hint that it's your real name? That's not right.
-bugg
Is really what is so controversial here. I think once the two view points actually agree on the term "hacker" we might actually have an interesting interview. The rest of this is pretty much flaim bait. Get both scenes (2600 and Those other IBM freaks) aggrivated by writing some fluff article is just a good way to get people to click on advertisements. Gah. The line of controversial interesting literature and flame baited extremism is getting increasingly blurred by these "portal" news sites. Anyway, I liked this line the best : Denial-of-service attacks and macro-viruses are the most popular hacker activities. -Fred
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American Public." - H.L. Mencken
Are you sure you're at the right site, troll? This is slashdot. Wake up and smell the unsweetened prune juice.
And the fact that EM's picture looks like it was snapped by a convenience store camera during a holdup certainly doesn't help things either. Look at that IBM guy- certainly looks the part of the " Big Brave Corporate Crusader who is protecting the poor little guy"...
Didn't anybody catch on to this??
--
"It was hell!" recalls former child.
I really fail to see the difference in what the two people are saying. Goldstien mentions a few times that criminals are bad, and Palmer's whole interview is about how criminals are bad. The only difference is the use of the word "hacker" which in my opinion refers to someone who likes to kick knitted balls filled with plastic beads and see how long they can keep them in the air. God, the whole argument about that word is so dumb.
Mess Stuff Up
Something I find most troubling about Dr. Palmer is that he doesn't seem as though any real thought or consideration has gone into what a hacker really is. He seems completely uninterested in good, old-fashioned curiousity. I am curious, therefore, I hack...pretty simple. Take all those who called themselves hackers and stick them in a parallel universe where only unsensitive, uninteresting information is protected...those who continue the pursuit are hackers. This isn't all that earth-shattering, it seems fairly obvious. Runners don't win gold medals because they're dying to have the medal and hang it on their wall, the win gold because they love to run. Pardon me if I continue my pursuit outside Dr. Palmer's "...controlled environment where there are ground rules and contractual agreements."
The scary thing is, I agree with both points of view at the same time - is that wierd or what ? I'm a hacker and not a hacker - my first hacking exploit was theft, when I discovered that it was pretty easy to get a free newspaper from the vending machine (5 years old), or that switching some makes of arcade machines on or off would often doll out free credits (9 years old) - or even, meddling with the internal telephone wiring of an apartment building from your own apartment - all you need is a screwdriver (or knife) and a wire-cutter (or teeth) and a bit of patience, and your hooked to someone elses line (16 years old) - all theft, I guess. In reality, it was not only just curiosity, but was about 'beating the man' - there can be a sheer sense of satisfaction when you 'trick the system' The ironic thing is, I was 'taught' this way of thinking by the media, I was taught by books, films, music - the list goes on. I was also taught by my parents what is 'wrong or right' by their definition. The truth is, everyone is born a hacker, you've just got to know what you can get away with hacking and what you can't depending on the situaiton - oh, and another belief of mine - try not to hurt anyone doing it !
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
To be fair, alot of SysOps read bugtraq without posting so they can secure their systems.
Superficial VS message. Obviously most /.ers are going to click on the left button. Now that we have "adjusted" the link count a little bit, maybe they will start aiming the news a little toward the slashdot crowd. These agencies just report it in a way that sparks interest, its a democracy.
Just out of curiosity, when are you asserting that these evil media types started this "misdefinition"? AFAIK, the general public has been using "hacker" in the breaking a system's security sense at least since the mid eighties. I could be mis-remembering, but my take of the word history has always been 1) computer geeks refer to themselves as hackers, 2) self identified hackers break into systems, 3) media and public accepts their self definition, 4) other who self defined that way don't want to be thought of in the same group and 5) instead of renaming themselves, try to take away the name of those they don't aprove of. Since few are willing to accept the blame shifting, and the systems breakers largely decline to begin self identifying differently, 6) this redefinition fails except amoung those who want to protect their own self image.
Overall, it makes me want to go put on a kilt and refuse molasass with my porriage.
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
Finally someone who got it right.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
So many people say that a hacker is someone who unlawefully breaks into a system. This is totally off the mark. A hacker is just an untrained programmer. A cracker is someone who 'cracks' into a system. This confusion of the two is thanks to the media and there inability ot understand technology.
If hacking is a fealony then there are lots of people that i know that should be arrested, like me. Although I have never tried to break into a system. Just the other day I was hacking at some code for the company I work at. Why? Cause I don't knwo C++ and had to figure out how the program worked to make modifications to it. WHy me? Because there is no one left at the company whoo knows anything at all about some of our systems. And if they do they say they don't. So I had to hack away and try various things to first learn C++ and then learn they system.
News flash to Palmer, the first people who worked on computers were hackers. They had a certain amount of knowledge and then they tried this an dthat. That is what hackers do. They try this and that untill they get it to work. To some extent Crackers are hacker, however not all crackers are hackers.
He mentions the DOS. You don't need to know a thing about programming to do a DOS, as there are scripts out there already that do this. You just need to be able to run the scripts.
If he thinks that he can completely secure a PC then he should think again. In almost any OS there will ALWAYS be vunerabilities. There are just to many lines of code to make any system absolutely secure while makeing it functinoal as well. Sure you can argue that OpenBSD is secure, but it is also had a total focus for just that purpose. I am sure that if you set it up as a web server and started running apache and some other programs as web server software there woudl be a hole that some hacker would find given enough time. Some script something. And once that hole was plugged another one would be found.
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
>A Cracker is one who defeats copy protection >security on software. Or cracks passwords. >A Hacker is one who defeats an OS's security for >whatever reason. Or has the programming knowledge to alter and tweek code. Or write his own code. >Quake 3 was cracked, Slashdot was hacked. Got it? No, slashdot wuz h4>Please, stop hanging on to the outdated >definitions, you don't get anywhere like that.
After all; we're all alike.
4f73r 411, w3'r3 411 4l1k3.
I also believe there is some stuff in the beginning about school or something.
Wassup with this... 1) Were you even alive when that SNIPPET of the Hacker's manifesto was written? 2) Do you know who wrote that manifesto or what it is REALLY called? 3) Do you know where it was originally posted and where to find it today? C'mon, child, if you're gonna do something, do it right... Answers: 1)No 2)"The Conscience of a Hacker" by The Mentor 3) cDc BBS Click here to see it NOW! KGB Kenny, once again stopping the spread of FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) Now, just so y'all don't think I'm a newbie, i'm not, for security sakes, I deleted my old /. account and created this one.
Eric... You suck...
I'm sorry to sound so cynical but I've had it with the glorification of the hacker. What everyone, including Mr. Goldstein, keeps forgetting is that it is ILLEGAL. Irregardless of what you do when you "hack", tell the sysadmin, report the hole, whatever you committed a crime by gaining that entry. If you're such a concerned citizen, setup servers in your own home and hack those...leave everyone else alone. White hat hackers think they are doing a great service, and yes their results are useful but thier methods are questionable in my mind. I like to think of myself as an ethical person and "hacking" however you define it is not really an ethical behavior. If I'm wrong, tell me and defend your answer but remember this....its not illegal for no good reason.
Uhhhh...
Where and When exactly has IBM cried about exposed security flaws in their software?
Oh yeah, it's kinda hard to hire the UN-CAUGHT hackers! The only way you know he's got the skills to be caught in the act, otherwise your 'hacker' could just be a slashdot windbag speaking out of his ass.
yep.
Blar.
And you didn't even use the poorly-secured house analogy...
It just goes over their pointy little heads anyway.
Blar.
Eh, you've been talking right out of your ass this whole thread anyway, but here you are plain wrong.
Languages are social conventions. No linguist will seriously deny this-- some linguists might not consider that to be the most important feature of language, but none will deny the conventional nature of language. The fact that in English "elephant" denotes a kind of pachyderm, and "mouse" a kind of rodent, is purely a convention. And the kind of domain where this convention applies is a speech community, which is a social entity.
As to the discussion that provoked your inane, unfortunate and uninformed comment, both of you are enormously oversimplifying as to the whole issue of language attitidudes of the speech communities in question. It is not a question of "majority rules" (in that case, the likes of "ain't" or double negatives would be accepted as standard usage) or the technical knowledge of the subject matter of one small group in society (in that case, the shift in the meaning of "hacker" wouldn't happen).
I think it so cool that the commercial media brings two people together like this to discuss the important issues. I am grateful that the people chosen for this type of point-counterpoint discussion never have an personal agendas that benefit by intentionally polalrizing the issues.
Indeed, I am glad the editors of this fine column picked two people who would not personally benefit by feeding the hacker mystique. Cleary, Emmanual Goldstien has not based his entire career on promoting the idea of a hacker as the dark shadow, a powerful and driven uber-genious lurking among us. Charles Palmer gains no social status or personal wealth by describing hackers as a bunch of felonious, psychologically twisted vandals and thiefs, only stoppable by paying huge sums of money to large, established firms that carefully screen their security teams for any psychological problems and hacker tendencies.
I am sure I join all my breathern when we thank you, Slashdot, for calling attention to this fine piece of informative journalism. In fact, you get special accolades for bringing it to us twice
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
In typical counter-culture fashion, programmers adopted the term as a description of a good programmer. But often, knowing how something works means knowing how something can be broken, so the term has slowly morphed to mean someone who looks for weaknesses in computer systems.
And now, when it's been realized that a lot of damange can be done and felonies can be committed by such people if they should choose to be join the Dark Side, it's come to refer to criminals, vandals, and script kiddies. These people have nothing to do with programming, and in no way, shape, or form demonstrate any knowledge of a particular system at all by the crap they pull.
That's so many diametrically opposed transformations of one word in just a few decades it's dizzying. The sad part is that my parents still use the original sense of the word while my grandparents and non-computer-savvy friends use it in the last sense, while computer geeks still use it in the programming sense. All senses of the word are still intact.
The worst part is that context cannot usually differentiate between these different uses of the word (given any technical context, all four of them would work, and yet would refer to totally different kinds of people). This, I think, is where the debate over the meaning of the term arises. And, of course, the news media are in no hurry at all to clear it up (why should they, after all?)
The term is worthless.
--- I've been in school *way* too long....
You have some members branding everyone with a hacker mindset as evil, the other hacking Linux and putting it on watches.
I still have a lot of respect for IBM, even if some of the people like Charles Palmer are complete morons.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Didn't /. and CNN run these interviews a year or two ago?
umm...i take offense to that.
he should read 1984 because it's one of the best books ever written. (with the possible exceptions of Slaughterhouse 5 or Catcher in the Rye)
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Guys this is old stuff. THis article has been out for several months. In fact, I think the reason I first saw it was because it was posted here long ago...
Connah
Connah
"Your mouse has moved. Windows NT must be restarted for this change to take effect."
eh ?
Are you mad ?
What the hell are you talking about ?
I guess, in your world, the words 'shut the fuck up' equate to the word ? 'civism'
I think your just a little bit confused there anonymous coward - and your example is disturbing to say the least !
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
If any of you are confused about what a hacker is and is not, especially in terms of how we relate to crackers, take a gander at Eric S. Raymond's info about hackers at his web page.
For those of you who don't have time to do this, I've included a small portion of the page below:
"What Is A Hacker?
The Jargon File contains a bunch of definitions of the term `hacker', most having to do with technical adeptness and a delight in solving problems and overcoming limits. If you want to know how to become a hacker, though, only two are really relevant.
There is a community, a shared culture, of expert programmers and networking wizards that traces its history back through decades to the first time-sharing minicomputers and the earliest ARPAnet experiments. The members of this culture originated the term `hacker'. Hackers built the Internet. Hackers made the Unix operating system what it is today. Hackers run Usenet. Hackers make the World Wide Web work. If you are part of this culture, if you have contributed to it and other people in it know who you are and call you a hacker, you're a hacker.
The hacker mind-set is not confined to this software-hacker culture. There are people who apply the hacker attitude to other things, like electronics or music -- actually, you can find it at the highest levels of any science or art. Software hackers recognize these kindred spirits elsewhere and may call them "hackers" too -- and some claim that the hacker nature is really independent of the particular medium the hacker works in. But in the rest of this document we will focus on the skills and attitudes of software hackers, and the traditions of the shared culture that originated the term `hacker'.
There is another group of people who loudly call themselves hackers, but aren't. These are people (mainly adolescent males) who get a kick out of breaking into computers and phreaking the phone system. Real hackers call these people `crackers' and want nothing to do with them. Real hackers mostly think crackers are lazy, irresponsible, and not very bright, and object that being able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists and writers have been fooled into using the word `hacker' to describe crackers; this irritates real hackers no end.
The basic difference is this: hackers build things, crackers break them.
If you want to be a hacker, keep reading. If you want to be a cracker, go read the alt.2600 newsgroup and get ready to do five to ten in the slammer after finding out you aren't as smart as you think you are. And that's all I'm going to say about crackers."
Crackers are the lowest form of scum. Someone who would derive pleasure from causing others pain, which is what crackers do when they write viri and engage in DOS attacks etc., should simply be taken out into the woods and after being made to dig their own grave shot in the back of the head.
TO HELL WITH KEVIN
Lee Reynolds
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
no matter how much campaigning mr goldstein does, no matter how true his message is, the harsh reality that we're all going to face is that it is easier for big media and corporations to see hackers as being thinly mustached villains who want nothing more than world domination. sure, we all know who's right, being that we are the hackers and we know our own intentions, but try telling that to a large corporation. they won't care.
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
What is the difference? My sources (_The Sizesaurus_ by Stephen Strauss, and dictionary.com) list it at something along the lines of "a unit of speed in data transmission, usually equal to one bit or pulse per second".. Seems pretty equal..
A Cracker is one who defeats copy protection security on software.
A Hacker is one who defeats an OS's security for whatever reason.
Quake 3 was cracked, Slashdot was hacked. Got it?
Please, stop hanging on to the outdated definitions, you don't get anywhere like that.
And when is someone going to port the linux kernel to the commodore 64?
-= I can't think of anything witty, creative, or insightful for my sig, so deal with this. =-
I like the tinkerer version that most of my friends use. But the media created the hacker craze that we see all the time on the news. As long as they keep up the heat and Some people keep doing illeagle and just so many things in bad taste the "EVIL" connotation will never go away.
"Technology lies on the leading edge of life" Rush
This argument persists because people seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that words mean things. When they don't accept the real definition of a word they attempt to coopt it for their own purposes.
Josh Centers started the Hacker Anti-Defamation League a couple of years ago to try to counteract the media's mis-use of Hacker, but the project has never really taken off.
Remember that just because a bunch of people believe something doesn't make it true.
What about the ones who started out not giving a fuck utill they were exposed to geek paranioa and arogance and moved to a sort of vauge irritation and weird pity while still not caring enough to hate and certainly not fearing?
Sigh, never enough options on these quizes. :)
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
This is our world now, the world of
the electron and the switch,
the beauty of the baud.
We make use of a service already
existing without paying for what
could be dirt-cheap if it weren't
run by profiteering gluttons, and
you call us animals.
We explore - and you call us criminals.
We seek after knowledge - and you
call us criminals.
We exist without skin color, without
nationality, without religious bias - and
you call us criminals.
You build atomic bombs, you wage wars,
you murder, cheat and lie to us and
try to make us believe it is for our
own good - yet we are the criminals.
Yes, I am a criminal.
My crime is that of curiousity.
My crime is that of judging people by what
they say and think, not what they look like.
My crime is that of outsmarting you, something
that you will never forgive me for.
I am a hacker, and this is my manifesto.
You may stop me, but you can't stop us all.
Oh, pleeease. Will the real script kiddie please stand up, please stand up.....
And I understand that some of the neo-l33t h4x0r folks might not be able to read the orginal script kiddie's manifesto. Here's the same manifesto in your language:
7h1s 1s 0ur w0rld n0w, 7h3 w0rld 0f
7h3 3l3c7r0n 4nd 7h3 sw17ch,
7h3 b34u7y 0f 7h3 b4ud.
W3 m4k3 us3 0f 4 s3rv1c3 4lr34dy
3x1s71ng w17h0u7 p4y1ng f0r wh47
c0uld b3 d1r7-ch34p 1f 17 w3r3n'7
run by pr0f1733r1ng glu770ns, 4nd
y0u c4ll us 4n1m4ls.
W3 3xpl0r3 - 4nd y0u c4ll us cr1m1n4ls.
W3 s33k 4f73r kn0wl3dg3 - 4nd y0u
c4ll us cr1m1n4ls.
W3 3x1s7 w17h0u7 sk1n c0l0r, w17h0u7
n4710n4l17y, w17h0u7 r3l1g10us b14s - 4nd
y0u c4ll us cr1m1n4ls.
Y0u bu1ld 470m1c b0mbs, y0u w4g3 w4rs,
y0u murd3r, ch347 4nd l13 70 us 4nd
7ry 70 m4k3 us b3l13v3 17 1s f0r 0ur
0wn g00d - y37 w3 4r3 7h3 cr1m1n4ls.
Y3s, 1 4m 4 cr1m1n4l.
My cr1m3 1s 7h47 0f cur10us17y.
My cr1m3 1s 7h47 0f judg1ng p30pl3 by wh47
7h3y s4y 4nd 7h1nk, n07 wh47 7h3y l00k l1k3.
My cr1m3 1s 7h47 0f 0u7sm4r71ng y0u, s0m37h1ng
7h47 y0u w1ll n3v3r f0rg1v3 m3 f0r.
1 4m 4 h4ck3r, 4nd 7h1s 1s my m4n1f3s70.
Y0u m4y s70p m3, bu7 y0u c4n'7 s70p us 4ll.
7. Do you think hacking can be useful?
Hacking can be useful in a controlled environment where there are ground rules and contractual agreements.
I dont believe his answer here. He has ABSOLUTELY no idea of what a hacker is. To 'control' a hacker is to eliminate the environment that he requires to operate in.
all I read in his answers is a corporate sell job to sell his politically correct hacker services. what a load of crap.....
Feed The Need[goatse.cx]
I certainly hope not.
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
INTERACTIVE
great comedy company.
This Goldstein's guy overinflater rhetoric is just ridiculous. Hackers are on a "search for the truth"? Puh-leeze.
One thing I've noticed about the way the media defines the "hacker" is that it is really creating confusion for the average computer user.
Where I work we have gotten calls from people with Back Orifice on their machines, and they are in an absolute panic every time. The media has built hackers up so much as unstoppable machines, that they don't think just to disconnect from the net, because they believe that it won't stop the hacker. Another terrible thing that also happens is masses of people buying firewalling software for their Windows 95 boxes because they believe hackers will break in while they are surfing the web.
To top it all off, because the media really never specifies what kind of hack was used, average users have no idea of what should be secured. They create open Windows shares of their entire hard disk, or even worse, install something like Linux and leave everything open to the world.
I think if the media would stop concentrating on how "evil" the hackers are and perhaps write more informal articles, people wouldn't be so aftaid of the hacker persona.
The clash of honour calls, to stand when others fall.
I never liked that saying... hackers make things work, crackers break things. I don't think that's true at all. I think it's all a matter of ethics. If upon breaking into a system, do you a) post a message to the sysadmins telling them about the security hole and how you broke in, or b) insert a backdoor, trojan proggie, or steal all passwords and credit card #'s that are in the system.
Reverse-engineering is fine too, depending on the ethics of your hack. Did you do it so that you could watch the DVD's that you bought on your computer, or did you do it so that you could pirate the mpgs?
The action itself is neutral, it's the ethics behind the action that define/color it.
So many of you computer people seem to be trying to alter the public's perception of yourselves by dictating what words they may use. This situation reminds me of a book I read in high school. That you know what book I'm referring to underscores my point, don't you think?
Ryan
I believe this is at least the thrid time this story has been on /.
http://slashdot.org/articles/99/04/05/1646251.shtm l
I couldn't find another one, but I could swear I remember this article being on /. at least twice before.
I don't usually snipe at Taco & Co, but c'mon... at least search your own databases for a linked URL before posting a story.
Lib.BENCH the only site you'll ever need!
And since i'm on the topic of 1984, I thought I might give you a brief commentary on the book. George Orwell wrote the book as a warning. At the time of writing (end of WW2), Orwell saw many alarming trends in western society. Firstly, he saw that ability of a totalitarian state to suppress the individual (Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR), that the western Allies were using the same reprehensive techniques that their enemies were using (eg. strategic bombing), and the increasingly vague use of language in politics (see Orwells article on Politics and the English Language). He wrote 1984 as a warning of what MIGHT happen if these trends were allowed to continue, NOT what will happen. He uses the futuristic setting to explore how well he thought an individual could stand against the state, and his conclusion is that the individual cannot stand, as is evidenced by Winstons defeat.
...about hacking. Hackers should be hunted down and locked up and serve the fuckers right if they end up as bubba's love slave.
Emmanual Goldstein. Ooooo! Let's pick an alias that makes me out to be the enemy of Big Brother. Ooo, I'm so fucking anti-establishment. Oooo, I'm such a self-important little twat! Mummy, the nasty man won't let me play with his computer, but I wanna, I wanna, I wanna!!!! What an utter ARSE! Hackers are not "necessary". They are engaged in ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. Mr. Corely should get a fucking life.
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
Get it? The original meaning of the word hacker is the computer operator. Back when I heard this definition (late '70s), the operator was a pretty technical person. It was a term of respect.
...
Too many people learned to associate hacking with doing something bad. It's not true.
Kinda like people saying 56k baud on a modem, when they really mean 56k bits per second. There is a big difference
gotta love the way business people think yeh... i like this deffinition: hacker1 (hkr) n. Computer Science. One who is proficient at using or programming a computer; a computer buff. i like the answer to question #4 that was asked to IBM's rep there... NOT funny thing is... we got 14-17 year old kids out there that know more about then network systems then them people with PhD's... wait... maybe that's why they get p/o'd all the time... cause they know people who havent spent thousands of dollars on a school education can do more then them? hahaha... i got it figured out! -ciph P.s. yeah i know that was pointless but if you think about it, Businesses just dont like the idea of being beaten... yes/no?
ciph3r
Web Admin/Master
http://www.penguinized.net
http://www.r337.net
-ballpark
Even worst, they hire the ones who get caught (this is no thing to be proud!), as lots of consulting firms.
IBM asually cries whenever a vulnerability is reorted for their software. And their software doesn't seem to be programmed with security as a big issue.
Here's my view on hackers (crackers):
There are two types of hackers (crackers), those that post to Bugtraq and those that read bugtraq.
The posters are good hackers/crackers. They find problems and announce them, making products better.
Readers are bad. They check thier Bugtraq letters and then they rush out and portscan a whole subnet to see if there's a system out there that hasn't applied the patch yet, and tries to crack it. These are 5cr1p7 k1dd1es, idiot lamers who think that putting number5 and letaz instead of the right characters and chatting in #hacking and DDoSing Kuro5hin are 1337, amazing ski11z. These acne-faced teenagers attaract the media's attention, making computer experts look like lusers. They should be shot, or at least violently beaten, if they try to break into a site.
Michael
...another comment from Michael Tandy.
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
Goldstein is one hell of a spokesperson for the hacker ethic.
;-)
The only problem? None of the unenlightened seem to get what he's saying. You can tell by the tone of the questions being directed at him from this article that the writer and Goldstein have come to the table with two complete definitions of the word hacker. The questions are more of a "i know what a hacker is (read: media hacker) and i just want you to answer these questions since you're admitedly one" - two bad Goldstein is admiting to being something of which the author has no idea.
I really think people should pay closer attention to Goldstein's definition of "hacker" though, and his use of the term "cracker." - I agree sincerely with his belief that you can't just use "cracker" as a catchall for anyone who breaks into a system or anyone who "breaks the law" - whatever the hell that is. This makes things too black and white. It makes hackers look like saints and crackers look like uber-villains. Way too black and white for something as complex as the internet.
Oh well, once again, the uneducated will see hackers as villains since they have no concept of what it is to be one. It's like telling someone who's never done drugs before what they're like. (bad analogy
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Palmer is talking about people who intrude with the purpose of sabotaging someone else's operation. He's talking about direct threats to systems by people who truly wish to do harm.
Goldstein is talking about the people in society who, for whatever reason, like to spend their time beating their heads up against security setups for the purpose of discovery.
There's a very real difference between the two, to the point where the contrast between the two interviews becomes meaningless. Palmer is talking about truly felonious activities of cyber terrorism and data destruction, while Goldstein is talking about people who simply probe and learn.
Go Lakers!