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Proton Polymer Battery
Reality Master 101 writes: "Saw this originally in Pop Science, but check out NEC's press release. More like a capacitor than a battery, it can be recharged in 5 minutes and has a life of 10s of thousands of cycles. NEC claims it has the highest energy density of any electrochemical device, as well as a current discharge rate 20 times higher than lead batteries (20mAh device: 9A in 10 seconds... electric cars, anyone?). To top it off, they can make it in a credit card-thin format. Very cool, and about time!"
ahhhh, I mis-understood their usage of charge carrier. I thought of it as what generated the current. I see how it was used. I was thinking in that whole.... protons always carry electrons way. Damn QM(quantum mechanics) course has made me forget almost all the chemistry I knew.
THanks for the clarification
Humans are slow, innaccurate, and brilliant; computers are fast, acurrate, and dumb; together they are unbeatable
and/or put smaller cells in parallel and series to achieve the desired voltage/internal resistance
Like a beowulf cluster of batteries?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
One of the most interesting aspects is extremely fast (5 minutes!) recharge times. i.e. the battery might not last as long, but you'd be able to fully recharge it while waiting in line to board the plane (much less while waiting for the plane to arrive). 10K cycles means that you could fully discharge and recharge it 3 times a day and it would still have a 10 year life cycle (In my world, I think this would mean ~5 years ( at 3 discharges/day) before you started to notice serious capacity dropoff.
For example, you could fast-charge it (full charge) while in transit between customers and not have to worry about battery death. 30 seconds plugged into a wall circuit might give you an extra 2 hours of stand-by power
THE DOWNSIDE -- SAFETY
Fuse early, fuse often.   I've seen a small (VHS casette sized) battery vaporize a 30A fuse without breathing hard. Something that can give you 10 times the discharge of a lead acid battery could couple as an emergency ark welding power supply. As long as you didn't drain it, A furby-sized battery could jump start a car (but you'd still need 2-gauge jumper cables to connect it!). If you shorted it out with 12Gauge (extension cord) wire, you could probably burn off the insulation in under 10 seconds. Now think what would happen to your thigh if you stuck one of these batteries in your pocket and shorted it out on your keys -- We're talking instant branding here (not to mention the hole burnt in your pants).
ON THE BRIGHT SIDE - QUAKE LIVES
I think that, with a fuel-cell generator pack, you could probably use one of these things in a man-portable rail gun. The scarey thing is that it would probably work much like the quake-3 unit (fire off a round (or three), and then wait for the power pack to reload).
`ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
You should read "Physics is constipated". I forget the author's name, but I picked this book up at a library just for the title.
The author is a disgruntled liberal arts major who went on to make millions and declared "Einstein is Super Stupid".
The main thrust of the book is that units like Coulombs, Amps and Newtons and such make physics too abstract from what is happening. So all of his calculations show all of the units!
It's a pretty funny read.
"The area of penetration will no doubt be sensitive." ~ Spock
--
After reading the various replies in this thread, I couldn't resist...
By looking at the page of NEC it seems to suggest that their 'cell' is 12V/20mAh, with a connected version of 10 cells for 12V 200mAh. The 200mAh model is about as thick as three or four floppy disks and about 2/3 the height.
The average laptop-battery is about 1 1/2 the height(length) of a floppy and about 5 floppies think. (well, mine is). My current battery provides me with about 3.5 hours of juice and it provides 3600mAh at 10.8V. (Lithium/Ion)
Now there's always the difficulty in expressing these things because almost all variables are related. I'll try to calculate the batteries back to their energy-values in Joules.
3600mAh at 10.8V provides (3.6A * 10.8V * 3600 seconds)== 139968 Joules of power.
For the sake of argument, let's compensate the 'thinness' of the battery (compared with my current battery) by assuming three fit in the length of the 'current' battery.
That would provide 600mAh at 12V in a similar battery. This mounts to (0.6A * 12V * 3600s) 25920 Joules. Even in a very positive estimate of 5 200mAh cells in the same size, it would provide only (1A * 12V * 3600s) 43200 Joules of power. (this last figure is slightly under 1/3 of the amount of power my current battery provides)
As a conclusion, the new battery from NEC won't give us the "durability" most of you have been celebrating about. However, as NEC's article states, it has a significantly higher discharge rate. This 'battery' therefore sooner approaches (as some posters already stated) the specifications of 'burst' capacitors.
Then again, it has the potential for improvement. As Ericsson is already working with Lithium/Polymer (i.e. Electron/Polymer, as opposed to NEC's Proton/Polymer) batteries in their cell-phones, we should be seeing credit-card thickness batteries with longer lifespans for (to begin with) PDA's/cellphones pretty soon.
Another thing I noticed in the posts is a discussion about the units of measurement. Things like the 'Coulomb' and the 'KWh'.
Basically, energy is expressed by Joules. And Power is expressed in Watts, which equals 1 Joule 'consumed' in 1 second. Electrical power (consumption) is calculated by the formula of Power(consumption) equals Voltage times Current (or P=V*I).
[Start inflammatory bit]
Up until now, this has all been highschool-level physics. Which means either one of three things:
1) The posters didn't read the article, clicked on reply and started yapping away,
2) The posters haven't finished highschool yet.
3) The posters won't finish highschool.
[End inflammatory bit]
So the timespan, potential and current are interconnected. Enter the Coulomb. Coulomb is a measurement of charge. Current can therefore be expressed in Coulombs as well as Amps.
1 Coulomb/sec equals 1 Ampere. 1 Ampere equals 1 Watt over 1 Volt. Which in turn means 1 Joule over 1 Volt in 1 second.
(1sec * 1J) * 1V == Watts * Potential == Current
1sec * (1J * 1V) == Time * Coulombs == Current
[Thus Coulomb is the relation between energetic value and potential difference]
The KWh is merely a 'compound' unit for use by power-companies who don't want to daunt their customers by stating a 9-figure number on the bill as the 'power consumed'. Besides, the cost/Watt consumed are so small, they can't reasonably calculate with it.
So, the KWh is one KW (1000 Watts), sustained for one hour (3600 seconds), which results in 3.6 million watts. Stating "200KWh consumed" looks so much friendlier than saying "720000000 Watts consumed" (720 _million_ watts).
Running 4 computers 24/7 in your home (which I do), without the monitors and having saved on the number of harddisks, would probably end up around 300Watts continously. 300 Watts * 3600 * 24 equals 25920000 Watts per day, or 7.2 KWh.
This, at 365 days a year, ends up in a whopping 2628 KWh on computer power-consumption a year alone.
My laptop battery (NiMH) gave up the ghost a while back... nowadays when I need to use it 'on the road', I use an external 5Ah lead-gel battery plugged into the 12V socket on the back. It powered my machine for an entire transatlantic flight...
-- Soruk
These credit-card thin batteries could be used to power robotic spy drones which move along on wheels, kinda like the little thing in Star Wars that Chewbacca hollered at and scared. Is no one safe when a new technology is used in the wrong way?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
...and actually sells a product: Check out their cramped site: http://www.electrofuel.com/
Didn't that catch phrase come from Mr. Rogers?
What do you mean "can we say"? What does this phrase mean?
Read the language of the press release - this is meant for load balancing the output of some power source that might have big surges and large fluctuations in power output. It is only a capacitor, which can hold a lot of energy but not necessarily keep it for a long time. Capacitors discharge on their own if they're left to their own devices - they discharge to air, even. If these things can deliver such a a huge current, I'm guessing they have a very short time constant. Translation: your notebook battery would be dead in an hour if it were one of these.
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
He must love the smell of burning silicon in the morning....
[Something witty and intelligent should have appeared here.]
{Traicovn}
so you're saying that the friction from the breaks against the tires can conserve the battery's energy? this makes sense, it would surely increase the lifespan of the battery's charge and yes, if the laws of thermodynamics were null, city driving would probably produce nearly more energy than expended...
With this technology, there wouldn't be a need for a "battery slot", just use that space to put two typeIII PCMCIA slots into the computer, that would reduce both weight and cost.
i noticed that someone has hoped for a PCMCIA laptop battery, well, this could be a standard, just pop 1 or 2 or even 3 of these batterys in, if you aren't getting online you have 12hours of juice, if you are, pop out a battery and you have 8hours, this would also alow instant "battery trades" without a power down, just pop the new battery in a different slot.
Ever have a problem with your WinCE device running out of batterys? even though the device is tiny it still sucks a lot of juice, do the same thing with PCMCIA batterys. your digital camera only gets 30 shots before it dies? Flat strap on batterys will fix that.
After 100 years with the current battery technology with very, very little change or improvement, its about time..
It's credit card thin, right? What about stacking 10 of them in the section where the battery slot is and modding the power down to something reasonable? Kind of like when you plug a 9-volt adapter into the wall to power a small piece of electronics, like a phone.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Compare this to something as creaky and ancient as a Cessna 152 carrying 25 gallons of gasoline and a 25% efficient engine. Gasoline yields about 119,000 BTU/gallon, or 30000 BTU/gallon at the crankshaft. That 25 gallons of gas would yield 750,000 BTU or 220 KWH of work; divided by the aircraft's 1670 pound gross weight, that's 132 watt-hours per pound.
Even the NEC battery is about a factor of 20 behind what you need to power a real heavier-than-air personal transport. Airplanes will not be electric any time soon.
--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
cars which run on the road, in extremely punishing weather condition, are not necessarily suitable for these easily burning polymer batteries.
Uh, hate to break it to ya, but gasoline is flammable too..
How do we get around exploding gas tanks? Good engineering. I don't see it being much different for other volatile energy sources..
Your Working Boy,
The only quiet aricraft are the non powered type -
Ballons and gliders.
Personally I would like to see great big zepplins
make a comeback. Wondering how well they would work out with things like titanium, kevlar, computer controlled everything.
Then again maybe I played Crimson Skies too much
recently. Massive airborne aircraft carriers are just such a neat idea.
Benzene isn't made from metal & halogens... it's quite toxinc though (and carcinogenic BTW)
consists of carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen
Cyanide is plain CN... but it's not wise to sip it...
It all depends on the processing... if you need truckloads of CNH acid you have quite an environmental issue...
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
Can we nail down the physical size needed for the battery unit? Curious if small enough to be cartridge loaded....
(Enough playing with the 5hp aircompressor driven golf ball cannon)
Battery guys use the following terms:
Power/Volume = power density
Energy/Volume = energy density
Power/Weight = specific power
Energy/Volume = specific energy
Interesting bit o' trivia: the theoretical limit for a battery's specific energy is c^2. Disscuss amongst yourselves.
thermodynamics predicts simple machines to be the most efficient. efficiency is dictated by the energies in a system. as a system becomes more complex, the energy in that system increases, the entropy increases(lost energy), and the efficiency decreases. Damn that thermodynamic identity: du = t*ds - p*dv + (mu)dN makes life suck
Humans are slow, innaccurate, and brilliant; computers are fast, acurrate, and dumb; together they are unbeatable
This is related to the current nobel prize for chemistry. From watching an interview with the recipient on the News Hour with Jim Lehrer, apparently whoever won the prize (the name escapes me...) did so for work on conducting polymers. Apparently they dope a polymer with something (he mentioned iodine, though I don't know if that is what is actually used in any real devices) and it automagically conducts. He mentioned plastic batteries and plastic light emitting diodes as two of the main applications.
It'd be nice to see a major leap forward in battery technology. I hope this pans out.
Here is a more recent article (August 2000), so it appears to be truthful. It includes more correct info pertaining to power vs. energy density as well.
OK, you say electric cars, but for aircraft the advantages that apply to cars would be even more attractive.
I've done a little electric aircraft RC modelling. They were almost as good as the "slimers" (various kinds of petrochemical fuels) but never quite, because the weight of the batteries always kept them from achieving the same power to weight ratios of otherly powered craft. Also they tend to have a run time of less than ten minutes, with performance rapidly dropping off towards the end. Until recently they were limited just to NiCd batteries, because of the high current draw required - LiIon and NiMH just couldn't dump the 80A that some of the big brushless motors like. Lightweight, high capacity batteries will make internal combustion models a thing of the past.
Extend that idea to passenger aircraft... For a start, it would make them much less flammable (remember KLM in 1973?), and if people were farsighted enough to get a solar infrastructure built for recharging, much, much cheaper.
Even possibly affordable enough for personal ownership. And of course very quiet, and almost pollution-free - not the sort of thing a neighbour would complain about at all.
I've never understood the use of mAh for quatifying charge for batteries, why not use Coulombs? Same thing with kWh instead of Joules for electricity consumption. Where do these "bastard" units come from (historically, that is)? Do their use pre-date Coulombs and Joules, or is there another historical reason why these units are used today.
There are a lot of developments into polymers, and most of the time we do not realize that many types of polymers _are_ plastics, and many of them can burn easily !
While in lab condition, the polymer batteries may have indicated the capacity of being recharged at a certain level of power, and can be recharged for umpteen times, but in the real world, especially if we are talking about applying these polymer batteries into cars, there are lots of fire hazzards we need to be taking care of.
While the polymer batteries can be safely used for non-volatile situation, cars which run on the road, in extremely punishing weather condition, are not necessarily suitable for these easily burning polymer batteries.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The battery itself uses sulfuric acid solution
somelines further:
Free of pollutants
Sounds contradictory to me...
Sorry couldn't resist.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Remember, this device could change life as we know it. (Electric cars would upset the balance of oil demand, etc.)
Therefore this technology will be suppressed and nothing will ever come of it. Of course I hope I'm wrong, but look at our record ever since JFK!
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
After an exhaustive "9 volt to the tongue" type experiment outside NEC's cafeteria, 98% of the random subjects all reported that the "damn proton battery hurts like a motherfucker." The remaining 2% had tongue piercings and could not legally participate in the in-company experiment.
Results will be expected on-line shortly at the NEC homepage, with Realmedia clips of the after-effects of licking including slurred incomprehensible speech that may or may not be profanity.
An NEC engineer was later quoted as saying, "we're working hard on clear and concise warning labels for kids so they don't do the same thing, but it probably won't make much of a difference," probably refering to socially inept and possibly really stupid children like his own son, Samuel, who is often the subject of taunts and dares.
The press release compared the energy density of the new batteries to that of lead-acid cells. It wasn't clear whether they were referring to the energy density by volume or by mass. (My guess is by mass, which is more favorable to them because lead is so effing dense).
Lead-acid isn't all that great for mass density, so don't expect greatly increased range from electric vehicles. The main advantages are that (A) the plastic can probably (eventually) be made cheaper than the lead, and (B) it can be charged quickly (provided that mega-amp charging cables for cars become common, which is another story...)
I wonder if people have considered the safety issues of batteries with high energy densities and high discharge currents. Under the right conditions, some batteries can explode, catch on fire, ...
:-)
Yeah, people are really worried about such things, which is why gasoline-powered cars never caught on.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
or 72mA in 1/8th of a hour, etc, etc. - that is, sure you can light an LED to half brightness for an hour, or the same battery can blaze a floodlight for a few seconds, it's the same amount of enerfy, just released slowly or quickly. Heck, I have plans for a 100,000w laser that runs off a 6v flashlight battery, only thing is the pulses are only 10nS long. One Ampere is one coulumb/second - the units get quite comfortable once you work with them and actually build things for a few years, constipated liberal arts majors notwithstanding. Only newbies have to expand a unit of measurement into it's basic physical quantities. After saying "coulombs per second" five hundred thousand times, we find it much faster to just say "amps". "Jake, could you flip off that 20 coulombs per second circuit breaker? Thanks!" Got any 1 millionths of a coulomb-volt capacitors anybody?
But I still wouldn't accept a ride in his new car.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Just the sort of thing I want in a computer on my lap. Something to be said for flywheels and lead acid batteries. Pretty much just dump energy into them and they'll sort it out.
:-)
You want a flywheel on your lap? No thanks. Just a little imbalance or manufacturing imperfection and watch your private parts turn into shreds.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
My dad works in the Battery business, and as off 2002, this new battery will appear in cars. It should be appearing soon in Harleys and Lawn tractors. INFO on INSPIRA http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/bg/NewTechnologies/ tech_info/tech_info_main.htm
Problem with batteries is that there is a tradeoff between discharge rate, and reserve power. Discharge rate is important for starting engines, but reserve is important for say, running you radio. So you got a battery that's okay with both.
Enter "Inspira", the Thin Metal Foil Lead Acid battery. These lil buggers are POWERFUL. A 6 cell unit not much bigger than a latern battery can crank out 1200 amps for 30 secs. It recharges in 15 minutes too. Now starting a car of course takes a lot less than 30 secs... ;)
The thing can crank a DIESEL SEMI as fast as a car. The glow plugs warm up instantly basically, because of the high current.
They're sealed lead-acid, no more need to add water, and they're recycleable using the current means for recycling car batteries.
Using a seperate Deep Cycle marine battery for reserve, and this battery for cranking, the combined weight is less than a normal car battery. You can keep a spare cranking battery in the trunk, top it off on a home charger that plugs intoa wall outlet. Keep a spare, if the first cranking battery goes dead, pop it out, and plug the spare in! The circuitry used in the battery docking hardware for power management, well, they're adding car security too it too. You'll get a keychain dongle, and with a press of the button, it will disconnect the battery circuit from the car.
Best of all, it's backwards compatible with current cars! You'll be able to go to a store, and BUY a drop in replacement that fits in the current battery tray. Drop it in, plug in the batteries, and off you go! And because that lil battery is so powerful, no more problems starting on cold days.
We had a test model in our van for a year.
NB, a electric drag racer equipped with Inspiras instead of normal lead acid car batteries, last year did so well, it can no longer compete in the electric class! It will now be racing with conventional fueled dragsters! By switching to inspira, they managed to shave 500 lbs off the weight. Drag races last a lot less than 30seconds, this makes them perfect for large banks of these lil batteries.
What NEC is promising, Johnson Controls delivers today... ;)
Hmm, carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen ... sounds like an alpha version of the fuel cells used in The Matrix to me. If you ever get hold of one, hold it to your ear and listen for a heart beat.
Regards, Ralph.
(Now's your queue to do an Emily LeTella: "Oh, nevermind").
The battery uses PROTONS, not PHOTONS, as the charge carrier. Rather than using large ions as the primary way to shuttle charge across the battery, they use H+ ions (a.k.a. protons) to move the charge. The only photons involved are the virtual photons mediating the electromagnetic force.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Twinkle, twinkle little star.
Power equals i squared r.
--Ben
That should be "whoever", not "whomever".
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
If you tap the forward momentum of a car to generate energy, you're going to slow the car down in the process. Unfortunately, so much energy needs to be bled off that current technology can't absorb all the energy, so it's bled off as heat -- ever notice how brakes don't work so well on LONG slowdowns? That's because you've just melted your asbestos brake pads.
Apparently TheDullBlade feels the ultra fast chargability of these batteries enables them to absorb much of the energy that would otherwise be bled off as heat. Using the power motor as a generator would be the obvious way.
I agree with TheDullBlade.
********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
Pardon?
arnald
clinko writes:
This Article from Carnegie Mellon Talks about how lead based battery cars would be bad for the enviroment.
Ohh, man. I hear this too much. I've been participating on the Electric Vehicle Discussion List for over a year now. This topic comes up every now and then, usually in some editorial or article in the news. Lead-Acid batteries of starter battery size or greater are one of the most recycled manufactured products extant today. Forklift batteries are often rebuilt instead of recycled as well.
Lead-Acid batteries can also be fast-charged. The limiting factor is mostly the supply current! EV drag racers are dump-charging their small high power-density battery packs from large banks of more traditional "flooded" golf-cart style batteries, with currents in excess of 150A. They'd go higher but they don't have to. Discharge currents are up to 1400A in some cases. Quarter mile times are steadily dropping.
Of course, we'd like more energy density, or as we like to say it "miles per pound", out of the batteries. Nickel Cadmium batteries are currently a good solution, though they cost quite a bit more up front. Their longer cycle lifetimes do, however, make up for much of the difference in cost over the life of the batteries. SAFT is a good source for them.
These high power density batteries are interesting in that they will probably allow a lot more companies to make viable hybrid cars since the high charge/discharge currents will enable dumping many amps into an assist motor for rapid acceleration. The solid-state construction also lends itself to secreting the batteries all over the car, giving much more freedom to the styling designers.
As for immediate safety concerns, the spill from a wrecked lead-acid battery EV can be safely neutralized with baking soda and/or simple water dilution will eliminate most of the immediate danger. Gasoline is much worse!!!
Whew, that's enough for me today...
-cajun
- A 200 mAH cell does not have to be discharged at 200 mA or less. The press release said "in a 200mAh device, 9A in 10 seconds" (whatever that means).
- Nothing in the press release mentioned how big this 200 mAH cell is, how much it weighs, or the voltage. That 200 mAH cell might be the size of the end of your pinky finger, in which case a decent-sized battery would be umpteen amp-hours. I can't tell from what's given.
- One can make some educated guesses of the density from the description of the materials; the plastic electrodes probably have a density of less than 1.5, and the sulfuric acid electrolyte is probably 1.2 or less. Contrast this with metallic lead's density of (11.3.)
- The energy density is comparable to lead-acid, but the power density is far higher. If surge discharges can be done at a rate of 45C for 10 seconds, this implies a peak power output of 450 KW from a 10 KWH battery pack. This is equivalent to about 600 horsepower. With the proper power electronics and motors, an electric car with these batteries could eat Corvettes for breakfast. Taking a full charge in 5 minutes means that regenerative braking is a lot easier, and so is quick charging.
This battery is looking like a good part of the death of the non-hybrid internal combustion engine car. With this kind of thing, it won't make sense to use non-electric powertrains any more.--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
At a garage (gas station) they have guys who are clued up about the internals of ICE cars. That is Internal Combustion Engine, cars. That's not to say that they're chemical experts, but think on it - if electrical cars replaced ICE cars, would they really be clued up anymore? No. They'd have to know electrical engineering, EPROM programming, etc. So basically they'd need a combination of programming ability and electrical knowledge that just wouldn't be available - not in your average car mechanic.
Course, most geeks onGet it?
Everything is but a number spoken by itself.
Risking the wrath of the copyright police, here is the Popular Science blurb (nov 2000 issue). It gives a bit more info. I typed it fast, so beware of typos:
Proton Power
A NEW TYPE of battery that relies on a proton traveling between its poles, rather than bulky molecules, could change how you think about rechargeable batteries. Not only would the new batteries recharge much more quickly, but also they could be recharged an unlimited number of times.
The new protocol polymer battery, developed by Japan's NEC Corp., works more like a capacitor--which stores an electrical charge--than a conventional electrochemical battery. When the battery is fully charged, hydrogen atoms, which each have on electron and one proton, are bound within the cathode material. When an electrical circuit is opened, the electrons split from the atoms and flow through the circuit toward the anode, giving off electricity. The protons flow through an electrolyte to the anode, where they recombine with incoming electrons, forming hydrogen atoms and binding to the anode material. Recharging the battery reverses the process.
The tiny protons speed through the electrolyte quicker than the complex molecules that carry charges in conventional batteries. This means a 12-volt proton polymer battery recharges in just 5 minutes. The battery also generates more power in a shorter period of time--important in, say, an electric motor for a car.
The capture and release of electrons also causes less degredation of the electrodes than the electrochemical reaction of conventional batteries, giving the proton polymer battery a life of tens of thousands of cycles, instead of the hundreds for conventional rechargeables. NEC believes a virtually limitless cycle life--along with the ability to deliver power in pulses--makes the new battery ideal for the recently introduced Bluetooth short-range radio technology, which wirelessly links notebook PCs, mobile phones, and other portable gadgets.
NEC is showing the battery to other manufacturers, but it's too early to tell when (or if) it will go into production.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Can we say new PCMCIA laptop battery?
Linux drivers anyone?
What would be the cost of implementing such a unique battery design into current laptops?
"This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper."
9mAH means it can supply 9mA for 1 Hour ... 9mA is enough to light a standard LED to half brightness. For an hour.
Please don't offer me a lift in your new car, ''Reality Master''.
How much are these going to cost to impliment into our notebooks? I'm sick of only having less than 3 hours of juice.
Whomever wrote this has little if any clue about the existance of the universe. Either that or they're trying to be vague to keep secrets. It mentions protons being the electron carrier. Hmmm..... where else is a proton the electron carrier? Every metal in the universe. Proton's ALWAYS carry electrons(with the exception of an H+ ion or any other time you completely ionize an element). THe point in that being, they are using electron carrier to confuse you. They may mean differential carrier.
If photons are used to knock electrons off of protons and then a barrier created between the two, it'd ceate one of the largest differentials possible.
But hey, I'm just a physics major.... it doesn't really work in the real world anyways
forget my typos.... I'm on codeine
Humans are slow, innaccurate, and brilliant; computers are fast, acurrate, and dumb; together they are unbeatable
That it is constructed of such simple materials;
As materials such as metals and halogen are not used, the environmental load of the device is reduced (polymer consists of carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen and does not include any of the pollutants used in other batteries).
... and provides such a high energy density, it sounds lmaost infeasible. But then some of the most interesting new technologies I've been reading about in energy creation/storage all sound remarkably simple. Fuel Cells, flywheels and now Proton Polymer batteries.
It'll be interesting to see what new devices come out of the marriage of these technologies. Combine them with low-energy consumption chips such as Crusoe and we could easily be looking at all-day laptops, all month cellphones etc.
"Give the anarchist a cigarette"
A little planning goes a long way...
Actually, lead-acids are probably the worst as far as deep-cycling. Even ones designated as "deep cycle" batteries should never be deep-cycled the way NiCDs have to be. Rechargable alkalines are similar to lead-acids in this respect...
:)
I'd say that if anything, the need to "refill" a lead-acid is a disadvantage. Gel-cells are a wonderful thing.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
This Article from Carnegie Mellon Talks about how lead based battery cars would be bad for the enviroment. They also talk about how there needs to be a better technology. Well, of all people NEC did it. I'm really excited about this.
Imagine this battery and a transmeta chip also. This Is Great
I havent yet read the story (doing that now).. but from your post I see that this could be very useful as a fuel source of an electric car.. But how would it compare to other enviro-friendly cars like hydrogen and natural gas? Both price was and efficiency.. I guess the efficiency is the same as any electric device.. but pricing would be nice to hear about.. I think this is a topic we'll be hearing more and more of in the next few years, both with the rise of fuel prices and the diminishing world supplies.. and also environmental issues...
stuff
The only thing exciting about this technology so far is the recharge time. NEC tries to make the energy density sound like a lot by saying its ten times greater than the double-layer capacitor, but it's still small compared to my Li+ battery.
If you look at the picture, you'll see the chunkier battery is rated at 12V/200mAh. My Li+ has 4500 mAh at not quite that same voltage. So my 1 kg or so laptop battery is equivalent to about 20 of NEC's blue thingy, which looks like it's 25-50% as massive.
The credit-card battery doesn't have nearly that capacity. I suppose this is alright if these things are *really* cheap and you have the space (and endurance) to lug around the amount that you need to get plenty of stand-alone usage, but this alternative seems like it would be a real pain in the butt.
Instead of waiting for holy-grail type breakthroughs in battery technology, lets look forward to commercialization of other established alternatives: Transmeta's lower power CPU and Kodak's up-and-coming organic LED display devices.
Squiffy
At last, a UPS that won't outweigh its own volume in neutron star matter...
End of lesson. You may press the button.
These wouldn't make very good laptop batteries because they're too heavy. They would be great for BattleBots because of their high power/weight ratio.
Your design to a real part online: Big Blue Saw
The press release claims that the energy density is the same as lead-acid batteries. We can presume that is for weight/unit volume. No clear indication of the weight of this unit though... I would presume much lighter (I associate lead with heavy) and though this would be it's biggest advantage in many cases (esp. cars), don't forget that Lithium/Ion and even Nickel Metal Hydride have higher energy density (erg/vol) than lead acid...
I think that the speed of recharge might be most useful, as e-cars would not require an overnight charge. 5 Minutes at a servo (with a thick enough cable to carry the amps) wouldn't be so bad.
Why isn't this moderated uppity up?
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Yeah, these ones use sulfuric acid, so if you drop them they could eat through the hull (/me looks down hole going through several floors, then spits).
Unless you set up a chain of electric-device providing service stations, this won't really take off....besides, who is going to pay for the EE students to sit there and consult/fix probs that occur?
Everything is but a number spoken by itself.
Then, try this one
Some figures from the article:
NEC's proton polymer battery, however, offers a power density of 1,000W/kg and a weight energy density of 10-20Wh/kg - a reasonable combination of power density and weight energy density. Performance is roughly midway between existing double-layer capacitors and batteries.
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Ni!
Rats, my post is redundant in regard to t his one :(
So much for karma
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Ni!
meant "18 mA for 1/2 Hour", or "36 mA for 1/4 Hour", etc.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
OOhh... this sounds good. If I put one of these suckers in my tv remote control, I might never have to get up off my ass again.
There's oxygen in the electrolyte (H2SO4), so the battery as a whole has something a bit closer to the elements of life.
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Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
And this is an important consideration in hybrid electric vehicles.
In my final two years of college (ME degree,) I got involved in a project to build a hybrid. We participated in the 1995 Hybrid Electric Vehicle Challenge, and won our class. I drove this car (a converted Saturn SL-2) all around California.
In watching the performance of the car, we noticed that we used power from the batteries in a very "spikey" manner. The engine would drive the car, then stepping on the pedal would cause a > 300A draw from the batteries. This would drop to less than 30A in about a second. This is from a 180V (nominal) battery pack.
As for energy density, that's the problem hybrids solve. The energy for this car came from the fuel. We never recharged the batteries from the grid, only by running the engine, and almost always while driving. We even drove the thing from Fresno to Yosemite valley, and put more energy into the batteries than we removed.
I'm rambling, I see, but my point is that these batteries would rock in a hybrid meant for performance. While ~350 lbs of these things would probably send the car ~4 miles before running out, a hybrid would replace the energy before you ever got that far. That is the beauty of hybrids - use the great acceleration of electric motors without having to cart 3000 lbs of lead to get anywhere useful.
Later
You can already get long laptop battery times with a PowerBook. With both batteries in there and the way the computer cycles power, unless I save continuously I can play with photoshop for quite a long while (around 6 or more hours), if it's just text files and few saves you could get ten or more hours. If you have a a large enough amount of RAM you can even run Photoshop in RAM and not even spin up the hard drive at all (until you want to save info to the hard drive before going to sleep).
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Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
...and maybe they can use these in those futureistic video game flashlights that never seem to last more than five stinkin' seconds.
Does it bother anyone else that NEC has a patent pending for a basic chemical process? They say that they are patenting the transfer of an electron from a proton to another proton.
I love cars. Old muscle cars, big-assed V8 engines sucking back huge amounts of gas. I love the mechanism, and I love the elegance of them.
I've always been someone who has put down the electric car. Not for loss of that romance - oil is evil, but until now, there's been no practical replacement for it.
I look forward to the improvements and things that will definately come of this NEC innovation. I think we're finally at a stage where the electric car is going to become practical.
Now, we've gotta start building nuclear power plants so that when people start plugging in their cars to charge them, it won't kill the country's electrical grid.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Second, this is really a device for high surge power output. That's a specialized application. The classic in that market is the PolaPulse battery inside each Polaroid film pack. As others have pointed out, this new device is down there with lead-acid on energy density. The NEC article mentions Bluetooth devices as an application. They're thinking of "somnolent computing", devices that sleep most of the time.
Where,
X = Amount of Money made from disposable battery sales.
Y = Amount of Money which could be made if cell phones could be on-line more often & for longer periods.
If, realizing Y cancels out X, then there's a fucking problem, isn't there, Smithers?
Solution: allow NEC to come up with a half-assed battery which is good enough to power a nation of stupid cell phone users but does not threaten the income of the energizer bunny.
Silly citizens. . . We've had the technology to rebuild this man for ages. But if we can make more money in service charges by leaving him in pieces on the operating table, then that's where he'll stay.
Fantastic Lad - "Okay, my goggles are on nice and tight, now what?"
Great! Credit card thin size, hmmm......
Just imagine;you can reply to "Damn, I need another laptop battery; anyone have one?" with "Oh yeah, sure, I've got one right in my pocket" and actually be serious!!!
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The top of the press release states:
For immediate use March 30th, 2000
What gives?
200 mAh is a strange capacity to list. I guess they want to highlight the 10 seconds to charge.
The new AA NiMH batteries are 1200-1600 mAh batteries. But then, my fast charger takes about 1 1/2 hour to charge them. It would be much better to charge them a minute...
The power density is high for this material, NOT the ENERGY DENSITY. Power density is a measurement of high-current discharge per unit of time per unit of volume(or weight).
The power density for these devices is in excess of 1,000 Watts/Kg, much higher than the few hundred for lead acids/NiCd's etc. Although--- the energy density of the NEC proton batteries is still rather dissapointing at 10-15 WattHours/Kg compared to the 20-30 WattHours/Kg of lead-acids'. But since it's such a new technology IMHO there is much prospect for improvment in this area, and getting competitive(in terms of batteries) energy densities out of these things is only a matter of time.
There is an article in the "Nikkei BP AsiaBizTech" site here: http://www.nikkeib p.a siabiztech.com/nea/200008/cmpo_108677.html
- "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
I think these will work well in electric dragsters..
NEDRA
love is just extroverted narcissism
Fast charging, fast discharging, add these babies on top of the main battery in your electric car (or hybrid) and you have the potential to regain maybe 80% of the energy when you stop and use it to start moving again.
In city driving, that means probably doubling the range of an electric car, and not having to worry too much about low mass for efficiency. This means having an efficient city car that carries enough batteries for long-range highway use. Sweeeeet.
Sure, there are plenty of other applications for something halfway between a battery and a capacitor, but this is the one I bet you're most likely to end up using, and the one that saves you the most money.
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This battery technology has high power/weight and mediocre energy/weight. To me that sounds ideal for applications where you have a steady low-power energy source and want short bursts of much higher power from time to time. Where is this, we ask:
1. Small planetary exploration robots: charge slowly off the solar cells, then use a burst of power to move/dig/analyze/transmit, then go back to sleep and recharge.
2. Similar story for remote sensing -- run the sensors and slowly charge the battery of a small solar cell, then use a burst of power to run the radio transmitter and report
Steve
Hmmm, 9A in 10 sec = 25 mAh, that is more than the 20 mAh battery capacity. There is something wrong here !
RFC1925
Sounds like cake. Cake has wheat, eggs and milk, so it must be nutritious.
Seriously, though, it sounds pretty exciting. Maybe they can make an electric car that can carry the family and get to highway speed before we need to charge the batteries.
The battery looks to be about 3 by 2 by 1 inches, or 6 cubic inches. If it's got a density of 1.4, that would make it 138 grams or just about 1/4 pound. At 2.4 watt-hours for the package at the nominal voltage, that's about 9.5 watt-hours a pound; not too bad.
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Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Say what? Are you sure you aren't just talking out your ass? Go dig up the issue of Wired magazine from around April 1999 or so. They've got an article on electric drag racing in there, and the reason electrics are in a different class is because they blow away fuel-powered racers. Fuel-powered dragsters have no chance against an electric, because electrics can dump so much energy so quickly.
The reason we don't have electric cars on the highway is not because of strength, but because of duration. You can get great performance out of an electric vehicle for half an hour or so, and then it drops way off.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
A reality check guys,
This document is dated the 30th of March this year (Probably available to the world on the 1st of April!) and claims that the technology would be presented on the 4th of April in Japan with actual products becoming available in October this year...
If this is as big as it sounds the whole world would be raving about it, no i think this is a April fools joke.
Damm shame.... *sigh*
Every time I see an article about the next "super battery", I wonder if people have considered the safety issues of batteries with high energy densities and high discharge currents. Under the right conditions, some batteries can explode, catch on fire, go into thermal runaway while being charged, or cause burns when shorted. Lithium ion batteries are already banned in some applications.
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