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Whole Slew Of Commercial Linux Apps?
Rannos sent us a somewhat strange ZD story talking about chilliware and their "100 Linux Applications" that they are releasing to retail this year. They claim to be releasing a Linux office suite, too. All closed source. Also talks about the Corel/Microsoft thing a bit.
I see at least one poster who has lost the plot and started off on a ramble about how great Chili!Soft are. This ain't them.
I've always advocated that operating systems should be open, in order to facilitate a level playing field for application developers. I see the OS as a sort of super-specification for how to write applications; while most OSs also provide a lot of services above and beyond that, I think their primary role is that of an application running environment. Having a free and open OS is akin to having openly published specs for public utilities. Imagine having secret electrical specs, known only to the people at your local electricity board. They'll come and wire your house for you, but there's no way in hell they'll disclose them to third party contractors.
In this light I view Linux as that open spec OS, the level playing field. Now whether "third party" application developers choose to follow the same economic model with their apps is an entirely different thing. StarOffice or Kylix or what have you provide none of the critical services of the OS, and whether you use them or not is entirely up to you, but not using them does not cripple your ability to use Linux in any way.
Not everybody is convinced by the economic viability of the Open Source way of life. Or--to put another spin on it--not everybody is as the same level of enlightenment regarding Open Source. But by providing an open source operating system and a mechanism for keeping it that way, at least we prevent closed source developers from forcing dependence on them on the rest of the community. After all, for a long time that was the biggest complaint about Microsoft: not that their software wasn't freely available, but that Windows was an opaque environment at the whims of its parent company, deliberately used to gain a competitive advantage by keeping its inner workings obscure, or even changing them periodically to break existing software. Linux as a widespread desktop OS would change all that.
Companies that make it are going to be the ones that provide a real service using the best available software. That software will be increasingly Free . They will provide the funds for others to continue writing software. Part of that service might even be a shrink wraped box with paper documents, as a "reasonable" price.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
that this is an x86 Linux only thing? I mean, after using Linux on x86 exclusively the last few years, I have now branched out and seen what Linux on Sparc and PPC can do for me. With open source software, I can of course port the stuff with little difficulty. However, this Chillisoft business being closed source, do I then have to wait to be able to buy a different platform version? That was why I quit using closed source crap in the first place!
Windows is going the way of phlogiston...
It's not sad, it's expected. Developers of various stripes (FSF, Open Source, public domain, et.al.) who contribute to the free Unixes have created a collection of platforms that are low cost/free, stable, relatively easy to develop for, and available on commodity hardware. Given this, the next wave to wash ashore is certain to be the strictly commercial applications, many of whom have suffered difficulty and setback on that other OS. Surprised? Don't be. It's as if we built a public highway using private donations along side the original dirt path, everyone is going to use it if they can and their uses may not be the same as those of the original supporters.
- technik
At least with reference to contact management, desktop apps are dead. Anyone who needs to actually manage their contacts is likely mobile enough to need the contact data available on the road, which makes a web-based solution natural.
As for office apps, this is a dead business. Anyone who needs Office already has it. Why people even bother with this is beyond me - you'd think the lukewarm response to Applix, KOffice, StarOffice, etc. would demonstrate how little demand there actually is for office suites on linux.
Its web application developers who have the opportunities in front of them - why address one platform when you can address all of them? Look at salesforce.com to see where apps are heading - people want this stuff on the network.
Outside of web browsing, the desktop app is dead, RIP.
Explain GNOME. Explain KDE. Explain the rest of the UI's currently in development. These are desktop environments that a LOT of open source development is going into SPECIFICALLY to compete with Windows in the desktop arena.
Yes, Linux is competing with NT & 9x.
Linux on the server side doesn't need easy to use interfaces like the aforementioned environments. Linux on the desktop does. Windows 9x is currently dominant on the desktop.
Consider the facts:
The Linux kernel is increasing support for desktop user space applications. USB, Firewire, DRI (for 3d/fx thus far), etc.
One of the main focii of the XFree86 project is to deliver better 3D accelleration. This is for the desktop, not servers.
Projects like GNOME, KDE, and other desktop environments are burning up community efforts like wildfire. These are for the desktop.
Office suites are being released like mad. Why do you need office productivity server on the server? You don't. This is for the desktop.
I could continue this tirade, but I'm irritated at the apathy in thinking like that. To say that Linux doesn't compete with Windows 9x is absurd. We need to feel as competetive as possible against Windows on server AND desktop - because I promise you, Microsoft feels the same about Linux (do you remember the post the other day? - M$ are directly attacking Linux in their ads!)
You mentioned that most users don't consider between Windows and Linux when choosing a desktop. This is the whole problem! Users NEED to have a strong pull towards Linux, otherwise, users in mass will not move away from Microsoft... and M$ will continue their monopoly.
Repeat after me: Linux is competing with Windows 98.
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Scott McDaniel. I am the 'Technical Development Manager' at Chilliware, Inc. (Chilliware.net) Essentially, this means that I am in charge of making sure the code is fresh, clean and efficient. (Also, as I am kinda a geek, I am the one that answers questions like the ones posed here today.)
What I would like to do is let you guys know a few things about us, and correct a few mistakes I have seen. If anyone wants to ask further questions or discuss anything, please feel free to email me. (Oh yeah, please excuse any typos. I am the worlds worst typist..yes, even worse that Taco.[heh heh])
Ok, let's start here:
We aren't the typical Linux company. We aren't riding the coattails of anyone else's work. We are not trying to corner the market on anything.
That's the beauty of Linux. The CHOICE. If someone doesn't want to use our software, that's fine. We're sorry to hear it, but, I understand your position.
The whole concept of our company is that we want to bring Linux home.
I really want my wife to be able to design a Christmas card on my Linux desktop machine, without having to run WINE or VMWare to use PrintShop.
I want my Mom to be able to write a letter, do a mail merge, and print said letters out, without having to use a word processor that uses 90% of available memory.
I want my daughter to be able to use an encyclopedia or web browser for her homework, and I want all of this to happen on my Linux Desktop. And I do not want to wait a couple of years for Microsoft to provide this "service" to us.
I know that it is hard to accept this kind of change to what we already know and expect. But remember that we are just trying to put Linux onto as many desktops as possible.
I would like to close now, but first I want to cordially invite you to pop into our offices in L.A..
Send me an email, and we'll make arrangements. Come in, talk to us, maybe join the team...
I'll be keeping an eye on the threads, but I probably won't post any more responses here. I have alot of work to do this week...and I would much rather SHOW you what we can do than just talk about it.
Thanks for your comments everyone.
Scott McDaniel
Technical Development Manager
Chilliware, Inc.
http://www.chilliware.net
213-365-8700
www.Chilliware.net
www.Chilliware.net
You're basically talking about the open-source equivalent of industrial espionage, ripping off opensource code and putting it in a closed source project. I don't think that would be happening in this case, and I don't think it's fair to ask to see their code on the off chance they are using the same speadsheet algorithms as Gnumeric. After all a lot of opensource code is realtively platform independent and you don't see people asking for the source to MS Works 2000 because of it has some the same features as AbiWord. I'm not expert but if you are really worried you could try running the likes of strings or a disassembler on their binary and see if they have left anything obvious in plain sight.
my blog: good times, man, good times
Cheap knockoffs a decade too late to save unix.
Are you seriously comparing Gnome and KDE to the Mac? Try some missing featues like, uhm, drag and drop, application-aware documents, and other standbys that have been on Windows and the Mac for the better part of a decade.
Its hubris to think that KDE is even the equivalent of Windows, let alone OSX.
The Linux kernel is increasing support for desktop user space applications. USB, Firewire, DRI (for 3d/fx thus far), etc.
Yawn - who cares if none of the device vendors support linux out of the box? For example, consider the logitech USB webcam. It has a nice little applet included for taking photos and movies...on Windows. When is the linux version expected...never?
Projects like GNOME, KDE, and other desktop environments are burning up community efforts like wildfire.....Office suites are being released like mad.
AND NONE OF THESE PRODUCTS IS REMOTELY COMPETITIVE WITH MS OFFICE.
Thats my entire goddam point - these toys are still years behind the current crap you like to deride on Windows, and is at least five years behind what OSX will bring to the desktop.
I could continue this tirade,
Please don't, we've already conlcuded that you're a fanboy.
This market was locked up by Quark and Adobe years ago, and no one is interested in getting invloved with a new vendor at this point, particularly on a platform that has no color support, no support for high-end printing and lithography equipment.
Ugh! Is there ONE person/company in the linux world who is actually trying to build something that someone else didn't build five years ago???
Oh, I see there is.
Think about it. In true Wayne's World fashion I will provide three different endings to this question.
User: I am using Product X and it crashes after about ten minutes.
Tech support: Which Linux distribution are you using?
Response #1
U: Yggdrasil (sp?)
TS: Eggdrawhat??
Response #2
U: I rolled my own distro.
TS: *dial tone*
Response #3
U: Debian 2.2
TS: Ok, so your using kernel version 2.2.16?
U: Well, not exactly. I compiled a 2.4 pre release. I also built my own XFree86 4.0.1.
TS: *dial tone*
Email reading is no longer necessarily a desktop-bound app - in fact, I use Yahoo Mail because I want my email available wherever I go - not just wherever I can find someone running Mutt who is willing to let me create and edit a fetchmailrc file so I can access my POP account.
I think email is one of those applications where your argument is weakest - web based email services have improved dramatically, and some even offer encryption.
What if you don't want your contact list on someone else's server where they can see it (opinion piece in e-week on this)?
Uh, most desktop apps these days (in a corporate setting at least), store data on the network, so its a little late for those conerns. I don't know of any major corporation where user data is solely on the local drive. Its simply an issue of whether that network is a closed corporate network or one that is accesible anywhere. Of course some data is sensitive enough that you do not want it openly available on the web - in those cases you can employ security measures or keep it on a closed network (although arguable this is still insecure).
I would argue that for most data, the convenience of having it accesible everywhere (with reasonable security provided by SSL) is preferrable to closed internal networks (where users break the closure of the network daily by copying data insecurely to palm pilots or x-drive or i-drive, etc).
Taking data off the local net and putting it on your palm pilot is not good security. So far I have found three palm pilots in airports, one belonging to a Sun exec who shall remain nameless.
I dunno...Something here doesn't smell quite right. Maybe I am just paranoid, but I usually think of new software companies starting with one app and gettign it out the door before doing 4 at once. I may just pick up one of these to compare it to what's already out there. I am sure there will be an outrage if someone does "diff `strings ` `strings `" and there is not much difference
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Probably just the NSA trying to corner the market on Linux applications before open-source alternatives become too standard among the masses, making things difficult for getting their spyware onto people's systems.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
/. has configured itself to make this easy for people to do. It's not theft, it's called linking, which is what the web is all about. If you'll note, /. makes money everytime a banner ad is displayed, which basically means this company is linking people to several handfuls of banner ads at /., so don't expect any great complaints from the geek compound.
Ugh!!! I had programs to do that on the Amiga in the 80s!!
ChilliWare is doomed. There is no demand for a linux program to print community fliers.
Interesting angle on some things, too -
Ok... so what is this, a proprietary help format? Is something like that gonna catch on?
Also, their own distro - "tightly integrated with our products" - does that mean the browser will be built into the kernel?
---
I've always found it interesting that many of the posters in these forums sound like religious zealots rather than REAL sysadmins or coders. Some responses to this parent will fall under the same category. Sure, we all have our favorites and experiences. I cut my teeth on Sun and HP platforms well before Solaris and CDE in the UNIX world. I loaded some of the first NT back when only primary M$ partners could get it (scary). But most systems are are owned by companies that are capitalist in nature.
The one common thread in all of the varying OS/hardware/networking/cabling crap I've dealt with through the years is the fact that CEOs, CIOs, CFOs and CXXXOOOs don't care what wonderful/demon organization brought the systems to you, they want it running 24X7 with only minimal scheduled maintenance. Laugh if you want, but I've stayed employed doing just that (yes, even with NT). Barring perfect uptime, (which is a myth), the way these management knuckleheads get their warm fuzzies is if you can show them a company that you can yell at if things go wrong.
Linux hasn't had that. I don't care what utopian OSzealot induced nirvana you live in, most of the real world has investors and managers that (no matter how much they may praise you and depend on you) really want as many people on a problem as they can get. And before you say it, the legions of dedicated opensource/freesource coders don't count because they can't be held accountable. No matter how much we believe in the cooperative model, the fact remains that Linux is having a hard time getting through the bonehead fence of "free must mean no one to yell at". Software distributed via more traditional means will help to continue the mainstreaming of Linux because it fills in the gaps between old methods and new ones. I don't care if there isn't really someone capable on the other end of the phone (my teams fix most of our own problems because the support geeks are usually 7 steps behind us), but the perception of support in the management mind is real.
Also, when you're running a mainstream OS (read HPUX, Solaris, NT, AIX, Novell), you have the chance to start slipping in shareware/freeware/homegrown utilities and apps as you deem appropriate. The management weenies only see the good results and think they're running from the native systems. Once you have them dependant upon the product, then you let them in on the background (if you have to). This will be one more method of getting the best products on our systems and keep our pagers from going off in the middle of the night.
Funnily enough, I think they could succeed in their proposed business, not because the category of products that they want to produce are particularly useful, but because the corporate machine requires employees to have them on their desktops. Yes, a large and lucrative market may exist for them, despite costing good money and despite lacking the freedom benefits of Free Software.
Note that these kinds of applications are not thought of very highly by tech individuals, otherwise they'd have been created by the community already. There has never been much of an itch to scratch for program developers in this area, but the PHBs probably think that they are essential, and no doubt are willing to pay for their belief.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Oh come on, this is ridiculous. There is not a significant market of people who seriously consider linux and windows simultaneously when making purchase decisions.
Most linux users want nothing to do with windows (or have a windows box available for the things they need it for), and most windows users only have a vague idea what linux actually is.
Linux is only a mass consumer product insofar as Solaris or FreeBSD are mass consumer markets, and the markets these products actually compete in has almost nothing to do with the windows/mac market.
We use Linux for development and hosting, but most of the people here still use Windows as their main desktop for day-to-day apps. I'd love to be able to have apps like what they're talking about - contact management, for one, and don't mind paying a reasonable price for them, as long as they're (1) usable and (2) supported should we need that.
Not EVERYTHING needs to be open source! This is precisely the kind of options I think the Linux community needs. We don't all feel like downloading RPMs or source code, make install, etc. If this company makes a distro that they'll make apps for that look good, install easily and have good functionality and decent prices, these guys will do well!
creation science book
Oh Goddess, I hope not.
There are two kinds of sysadmins: paranoids and losers. I'm both kinds.
I am going to tell you that John Q. Public who is out browsing the store shelves is going to see have his attention caught rather quickly.
Wow, there are applications for Linux?
Linux has suffered similar problems to the Macintosh: people avoid buying them because "there just isn't enough software for them." They proceed to then buy Windows boxes.
For the mainstream, the subrelease quality of most software on Freshmeat is not sufficient - and Mr. Public does not want to compile his own software. Just so long as ChilliWare produces a good product (aren't they they the ones who produce that software to run ASP on Linux - and looking at their four new products, things are looking good) this will produce many exciting benefits.
And in the long run, there's always the possibility of ChilliSoft opening its software up once they become successful. Hey, look at what Sun did with Star Office (it didn't take that long either).
One Window at a time...
But, this is an unknown company, and their products might be crap. Then the nay-sayers would just love to hold them up as an example if they fail, proclaiming "Selling retail software for linux won't work!" and discouraging other companies from trying the same thing.
Will be interesting to watch. I hope the benefits end up outweighing the potential costs.
________
Let's face it, the corporate world is not comfortable with open source and free (as in beer) software. Commercial products that are not open source, selling them, and supporting them, may be the kick-in-the-pants that the Linux-on-the-Desktop movement needs to really take off....
If for one, would love a choice in Browsers. Something that has the support of Macromedia, Real, (and maybe even QuickTime!) and etc. and all the other things that make web-browsing 'fun'...
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
Great, now all we need is a "Linux Country"! Seriously, think about it! It's great and all that Linux is really starting to move up in the popularity, and that there are commercial apps coming out, but it's not good enough yet.
Hear me out . . . Microsoft's Windows is only popular because its ease of use, its dominance in the market and its number of available titles. Walk into a Best Buy or a CompUSA, you see aisle after aisle of commerical Windows product.
Linux? Well, all I really see at these places are the OS distros and maybe a couple utilities or Corel WordPerfect Office Suite. The Best Buy here has only one four-foot (just over a metre for the Non-American-System people) section with five shelves for Linux, and probably twelve aisles of Windows products (mainly games).
For Linux really to have some power in the same market as Windows, and make it more popular, it has to be the three things Windows already is. Ease of use: Well, last I saw, Debian and Red Hat were fairly easy to use. Maybe there are more already. Dominance? Well, as a server OS, it does fairly well. As a desktop or business solution, it's still got a little while to go. And number of available titles? Sure, Open Source is great, and free software is better, but the only people who are developing these are developing them because they want to, not to really make a living.
How do we remedy these? Well, open a dedicated store! Linux Country! Really. Walk inside, have nice black cases all around with white spots (not those stores with the white boxes and black spots), notebooks which are preinstalled with your favourite distribution, software as far as the eye can see . . .
Well, it's a dream. But if someone really wanted to invest in it, would it be that difficult of a dream? If people could make money off Linux developing the games, software and utilities, they would. Though people on slashdot often don't think software should be commercialised, it's one of the only ways to feasibly make Linux and Linux software more dominant.
In this fantasy store, we'd have all these titles. We'd have pretty plush penguin Tuxes. We'd have training courses so even the computer-illiterate will be untarring and bashing and telnetting!
It's feasible. But then again, it was feasible fifty years ago we'd have flying cars. It's 2000, and the only flying my car will be doing is if I get tired of it breaking down and I drive it down to the local gorge.
Just a little daydreaming on my part. Don't mind me.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
They'll be releaseing 4 next week.
They plan to release 16 next year (read: maybe 10)
They speak of 100 percent Linux-for-desktop applications, not 100 Linux-for-desktop applications
The journalist speaks of more than 100 desktop Linux apps, without any time frame. I beleive journalists even less than lawers.
And their website is nearly empty. Who said vaporware?
____________________
Ni!
16 apps in a year from 117 engineers.
Either the apps are simple desktop "applets", or they will be low quality knock-offs of good software.
Designing, developing, and testing a robust, feature-rich application takes a lot of time. He gives a total of 8 man-years per product. My experience says this is plenty for the 'developer' quality software you see on freshmeat (ie, the software does its job if you treat it right), but will not cut the mustard of what consumers expect from a CompUSA shelf box.
My gut feeling is that they will be hawking the type of software that you find in those big 'bargain boxes' at CompUSA. First there are the cheap knock-offs: "Heh, look. $10 for a CAD program!! I gotta have this." Unfortunately, trying to do anything but the tutorial crashes program. Then there are the useless extension to outdated shareware: "Look. 1001 Card Games. Only $10. And here is 101 Arcade Games That We All Wish We Could Forget. Still only $10."
It's nice to have 117 more developers on board, but since they're closed source I don't see them contributing much to the community other than some exposure on store shelves. Even then, if they're software is as sub-standard as I expect it to be, it may prove to be negative exposure.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Cool, so he wants to completely break Linux (but Microsoft had a head-start - their OS was broken to begin with!), force all Linux users that load his apps to re-boot once every couple of hours, and charge an arm-and-a-leg for half-ass apps that require several service patches before they're even minimally functional because they were too cheap to fix the bugs BEFORE they shipped? Oh, that's EXACTLY what Linux needs. Why didn't WE all think of that?!?!?
Sombody PLEASE wonk this guy several dozen times with the ClueBat(tm)!