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Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2
Blond_buzzkill writes "Twin Galaxies has this article introducing the IES and comparing it to the other consoles. Most informative, however, is a chart comparing the Indrema's hardware to the Xbox and the Playstation 2. The article also says the IES will go on sale in Spring 2001, a bit ahead of either Gamecube or Xbox." I'm still pretty excited to see what comes of Indrema. I'm still waiting for the converged media box, and they've got as good of a shot as anyone.
Here's the article from The Register on how Sony's Nagasaki plant switched to .18 micron and essentially fudged up the release schedule.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything to solve the "too many cables and components" problem I was talking about, as it provides the "MP3 server" via introducing about 4 new cables (2 for sound, 1 for power, 1 for Ethernet).
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
What about in a personal TV recorder / mp3 box / web console / game machine (ie, that the Indrema is NOT a game console but an Entertainment System)
filesystem : How hard is it to read ISO9660?
and DVDs and Tivo-like FS and a FS for MP3s/games...
virtual memory support : opps, can't have that without a HD. Even the X-box with a HD is not going to have VM.
NB: I do not know if they are actually using the VM... but if you want share/free ware games, do you really want them crashing your TIVO recording of The Simpsons?
device drivers : The system is supposed to be fixed. That's the beauty of console games, the hardware doesn't change. Why do you need loadable drivers?
But they let you swap out the GPU. Again, this is more than a console, it is a new device, and I wouldn't want to throw it away just for better gaming. Plus now you can online game when we switch to IPv6 or, more importantly, whatever device drivers you can't think of now that you might want.
In conclusion, you make intersting points but I don't think that you understand what Indrema is really trying to do.
Whoa....did he just put the word "stable" in a sentence describing a Microsoft product? /me takes a deep breath and steps away.
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I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
How does the dreamcast compare on this chart? From what I hear about the new PS2, the dreamcast is blowing it out of the water, but that is only hear-say.
.sigs??
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Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Despite how I would like things to turn out, I still find it difficult to believe Indrema can compete with the Microsoft/Nintendo/Sega/Sony marketing machines for share of what will likely be a saturated console market in 2001/2002 (Dreamcast, PS2, GameCube, and XBox).
Moreover, I am perturbed that Indrema has yet to announce anything with regards to developers or titles that will be available at launch.
I wish them the best of luck, but don't hold your breath for a miracle.
:wq
An Indrema could be a much better WebTV -- though it probably won't ship as such. But with a solid infrastructure, that could happen later. Linux still wouldn't be necessary, though, if it wasn't for the HD. Once you have files -- collections of MP3's, emails, bookmarks, game mods, and downloaded games -- you have to have something to manage it. And then you start downloading games, upgrading software...
Now, if they can just keep it from becoming a PC...
I don't know about this Indrema. I agree with others, it'll probably sell a few and there may be some interest, but I doubt it'll capture the attention of the big game houses. Yet it stands a chance of having some very good free games written for it. Sort of brings back memories of the C64, etc.
Sony... they have a headstart, and certainly have the hype.
Microsoft. I don't know. Honestly people don't buy products just because they say Microsoft on them, despite what others say.
Anybody here buy a Microsoft telephone? What? No? You did know they made one, right?
The Xbox will only sell if the design turns out to be solid. The console will need to be easy to use, durable, etc. There will also need to be a ton of cool games available.
So far from the previews it looks like this will be the case. They are certainly working with the right people to design the internals. My fear is the chassis and how well that is built, Microsoft doesn't have nearly the experience in this as Sony has.
Microsoft certainly has game developers on board. Microsoft is promising to reduce development costs by making the console and the PC use the same APIs. With the low margins in the gaming business, this is a good incentive.
I really doubt you'll see Microsoft pulling the same contractual moves as Sony has been.
Microsoft understands that the secret is in the software, and the goal to dominating the industry is to get as many software titles out as possible. Since they are the underdog, they aren't going to try to muck that up.
As such, I fully suspect they will encourage people to develop, rather than stifling them like Sony, Nintendo, etc. have done.
Specifically I doubt that Microsoft will charge excessive license fees, like Sony picking up an extra $10 off each title sold.
The XBox cost will have some profit margin in it, if not they'll make it up by selling their own games. Microsoft has been buying up some game development houses over the past several years. No need for license fees when you can absorb all the profit instead.
I doubt Microsoft will control what you can release. Nintendo has to OK the content of your game before you can sell it(I believe they've patented their ROM cartridge design), same with Sony, Sega, etc.
If people want to produce porn games for the XBox, I don't think Microsoft is stupid, they aren't going to try to prevent that. Anything that will gain them sales...
We'll see. Personally I don't doubt that Microsoft can pull this off from a development, and creative software point of view. My fear is that the resulting chassis will look like a piece of shit, and the mechanicals will work even worse. Microsoft just doesn't have good experience with consumer electronics.
If anybody saw that Microsoft phone, you'll know what I'm talking about.
AHAHAHA! That was REALLY FUNNY!! Bashing Microsoft! I've never seen such hilarity before! Woo!
Geez, all sarcasm aside, I'm running Win2k, and my computer has been stable as hell since I installed it. (2 weeks and counting, no crashes/BSODs/etc)
Their hardware is very nice as well... anybody ever used the intellimouse optical? Sweet.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
1. All the API's are not GPL'ed. If they were, anyone could develop without Indrema's help.
2. Even if it were using a non-X86 processor, they must release the source to the Kernel, thereby allowing hackers everywhere to remove the prebuilt OS, and install Linux on it just like they did with the iOpener.
Sounds to me, like they are going to have a very difficult time making money of this thing, even if it sells.
Burn Hollywood Burn
I can't help but wonder about all the specs being thrown about on the various gaming consoles.
I mean, PS2 is often compared to a "typical gaming PC".
PS2 is often said to have a polygon rate of something like 12 MP/Sec., yet this article says 66, and also states the Xbox will have 150.
It's kinda frustating to see all the numbers and wonder what's going to happen to this software-driven industry.
There is a lot of focus on controlling the market with the switch to consoles. I have heard Sony will be forcing developers to sign many NDAs, buy $15K in software/hardware, etc.
I'm sure that, when all is said and done, M$OFT will do the same thing.
From that point of view alone, it would be a good thing to see indrema become a "one stop" source for open gaming needs. It could be a niche that pays off big.
But they will be demonstable hardware that can come within maybe 10% of the competitor to really make a big splash.
That may be tough to do, with MS and Nvidia in such a loving embrace.
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and the Dreamcast was released in 3Q 1999 but it's current games look as good or better than most PS2 launch titles.
And I never heard of anyone lining up to buy PS2 games because of their playability....
Have you heard of LanSonic? It's a box that is basically two things in one: a rack-format MP3 player, and a network based storage unit.
So, you can store your MP3s on this thing and play them either through your stereo (by hooking this thing up to the speakers), or through your computer (by mounting the harddrive(s) in the box over the ethernet connection).
You can even get it in a number of harddrive configurations - including 0. So, if you've got your own drive of MP3s already, you can just move it into this box and that's it. I'm not sure what file systems the box understands, but I'm sure it's something standard...
It seems quite reasonable, actually....
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
There most certainly is merit to having some components that integrate a bunch of functions; I am sitting now with two dilemmas; I'd be moderately interested in adding in:
- An MP3 player (with "big hard disk"), and
- Something like a PlayStation
and the dilemma is that I'm not sure how I'd plug them both in. What with having DVD, VCR, and TiVO, throwing in a PlayStation gives me Yet Another Input Signal, and I'm really not sure how to hook that up.I am seriously not interested in PS2; it seems severely overpriced, and doesn't do enough to solve any problems I consider I have.
But there certainly would be merit to having something that could combine the functionality of:
- TiVo
- PlayStation
- DVD player
- MP3 player
Cut down on the cabling and on the number of boxes (and power supplies and power cables) and that is certainly worth something.If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
1)PC's in a plastic box - X-Box, IES. Superficially, these appear to be more powerful, boasting 733 & 600 MHz processors respectively. Only problem is, they are designed for use on applications, not games. The pc architecture is designed around manipulating small amounts of data with a lot of code, like MS-Word working on a document. They are not designed to process huge amounts of data with a small, looped amount of code.
2)PSX2 & (to a lesser degree perhaps) the dreamcast. These are designed, especially the PSX2, with games in mind from the ground up.They have huge bus bandwidth, and can chuck data around at a phenominal rate. In the case of the PSX2, this has been really radical, and Software Houses are reporting problems trying to come to terms with this new paradigm. It's quite unlike anything they have had to deal with before.
On the software side, however:
1)X-Box, IES. Who knows? Microsoft have demonstrated some games at trade shows and the like, but so far it has all been vapourware. However, they have pots of cash, and real develepor muscle, so they should have some good stuff out for release. As for the IES, I really have no idea.
2)PSX2. Most of the games so far are pretty unimpressive, and the software houses are having difficulties as noted above.
3)Dreamcast. It's here now, with a head start and a crop of good games, with more in the pipeline. According to some sources, the games it has presently are also technically superior to the PSX2's.
Ultimately, it's the strength of the software that will win the day. I can't see the PSX having anything to shout about for a good while yet, especially considering Sony is'nt primarily a software developer, unlike Sega and Microsoft.I don't think the IES will make it, it just can't compete with the forces arrayed against it, be they marketing or financial. I think, in 18 months time, the PSX2 will be the next Nintendo64, and we will be looking at a straight fight between Sega and Microsoft, and possibly Nintendo.
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If the Indrema had MAME available for it, and all 4000 games available, without crashing or mucking with controls, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Of course, with the TONS of licensing issue and all sorts of red tape concerning emulators, it would be impossible.
the article says the HD is 8/30/50 GB, while the chart says 10.
Also, I do believe it could be GPL'd or equiv, since they are allowing freeware titles... they seem to be allowing free development. I imagine that for them to certify you for a freeware game you have to actually have a FREE game... which would give them volume and yet not eliminate the pay-game revenue stream.
They have the much-desired ethernet interface... My guess is their open API + ethernet will allow you to do all sorts of things like netsurf and control your toaster over 10bT. Play MP3s through your stereo mixed with games... Whereas web tools will probably WORK with it, they probably won't ont he Xbox... meaning this will be able to be the WebTV non power users should actually buy, because it'll be using any ISP.
I hope their ad department is up to it. But it seems like you'll be getting a console + a basic computer for $300... which sounds pretty sweet to me.
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As for the indrema, it looks pretty good (the integrated mp3 player is a nice plus), but i'm not sure how having many developers necessarily means good games. Maybe it will be like the C64. I remember playing both nintendo and c64, and i loved them both for their own reasons (nintendo had very fun good looking games, c64 had some very addicting games + many many other games to choose from). Each had their own forte and was popular in its own way.
For the PS2, Indrema and X-Box, I believe most people will not follow the line of reasoning that they already have a computer and a DVD player. These 3 will integrate everything, into something that would work in a living room. Not many people I know of have their computer and DVD player and video game machine in the living room (or maybe they do... :), although it is starting to change....
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Who knows maybe a market will be generated for low cost PCs optimized for gaming. The console market could probably only sustain a small number of console makers, but PC clone makers come and go all the time.
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I've been trying to install W2K and it keeps failing at the very beginning while trying to load every single device driver it has. When it reaches the partitioning screen (after about 30 attempts) it refuses to install on my second drive. So much for the wonderful stable OS. I'll have to buy myself a copy of Partition Magic to move my Linux partitions out of the way just so it will install. Or else I could write off my small investment (it pays to have a kid sister at college :)) and forget about it. Thank god I didn't pay the full price, else I'd be sending email viruses to Redmond.
Let's conjecture about the possibilities of two theortical systems which have been projected for release sometime in the future. By doing this, we hope to resolve any unforeseen potential issues before they manifest themselves in a non-hypothetical form.
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Well it's a *lot* more stable than win98, which would crash on me about once/day.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
With all the news about the PS/2 reduced availability and people standing in lines to buy it it seems it all boils down to whether people can buy the thing. In this great economy everyone seems to have excess cash, but the supply of these seemingly great devices is so low only a few of the many people that want to buy the item can. Had Sony been able to produce 2x as many PS/2s they would have sold 2x as many. I worry that this new company will not have the production power to meet demand and will get swamped by the larger companies that can. The game system popularity is only partially influenced by technical specifications. The #1 factor is the available games. If a system has the "best" game it will be more popular than other technically more advanced systems. Look at the Sega Saturn or the Atari Jaguar.
I think the games for the Xbox are going to be better than those for the PS2. Just look at the specifications and anyone with half a brain will see the games just have to be better. I've played a lot of games and have not been disappointed by games with big system requirements. Just look at games like Daikatana. You know there's gonna be a port to Xbox. Besides, the Xbox will be much more stable than the PS2.
http://www.gamecenter.com /Ne ws/Item/0,3,0-4604,00.html
Excerpt: "The Indrema L600 is expected to launch with 30 titles next spring. Among the games currently in development are SimCity 2000, Heavy Gear 2, Quake III Arena, Diablo II, and Unreal Tournament. Industry heavyweights such as Electronic Arts, Infogrames, Havas, and Activision are supporting the L600, and Indrema is currently negotiating deals with developers and publishers to bring new content to the system. "Problem is, of course, that with a completely open source OS and API set, it's hard to see how they can make any money off 3rd party titles. In the traditional console model, the console vendor gets a royalty on every single copy of a game sold (or, in Nintendo's case, every single one manufactered!). They're just not going to be able to do that here. Indeed, the handy comparison chart even admits as much when it says that some games will be freeware!
In short, although the lack of games and marketing muscle are indeed a big problem (as others have already noted), they're just a drop in the ocean compared to the gaping hole in the financial plan.
if I were going to purchase a gaming console that is what I would want. I have no desire for an MP3 player, a DVD player, USB, etc. I want to play my games and be done w/it. The only real feature that I could possibly want is some sort of Internet access to play online games.. w/the PS2 it seems like you are going to have to go through Sony. No thanks. I want to use standard ISP's and do it like it has always been done.
.02.
I was interested in buying a PS2, I really was, but then I took a look at the $300 pricetag and thought again. Why the hell would I need to pay $300 + $50+ for each game when all the god damn machine is is a glorified DVD player. It seems to me that they could have kept the costs down by not integrating all these unnecessary parts and actually finding out what is wanted out there.
I already have a DVD player, it was $120 at Walmart. I already have a computer (as most people do) why would I want computer like stuff (again, other than Inet access) on there?, I already have a drinking problem, why would I waste $300 on non-beer?
Just my
The article mentions the system runs linux under it all. What is the point? An OS is supposed to provide:
multi-process management : don't need it in a game, simple threads work fine.
filesystem : How hard is it to read ISO9660?
virtual memory support : opps, can't have that without a HD. Even the X-box with a HD is not going to have VM.
device drivers : The system is supposed to be fixed. That's the beauty of console games, the hardware doesn't change. Why do you need loadable drivers?
so in conclusion, I think linux if used, will be truely bastardized to the point it is no longer linux and mearly an advertising bullet point.
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-- Virtual Windows Project
Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2.
There is no mention of the PS2 in the article and there certainly is no "verus" comparisions with other systems.
-- Virtual Windows Project