Computers-for-Student-Eyeballs Scheme Goes Under

mwalker writes "The New York Times is reporting that ZapMe corporation is sending schools the bill for computers that they had given the schools for free. ZapMe's original business model of playing ads for students on the computers, and trading their personal information for "Zap points" towards prizes seems to have fallen afoul of a few privacy advocates."

Comments

Re:Well, What did they think. .

[Xenu]

It''s a shame that the US educates it's folks with teachers that carpool from the trailor park each day and that little johnnies teacher is also trailor park patty, just on her day job because that's the only caliber of people they can find that will work for 20K US a year. Hell, garbage men in my country get more than that.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

If you want to see real data on teacher salaries, look at this page, whick contains the results of the AFT 1998 salary survey. The 1998 U.S. average teacher's salary is $39,347, which is more than most people make.

Many public school teachers (and administrators) are overpaid, incompetent and should be fired.

Volunteering to Schools

[goliard]

Ok, this has gotten surreal, the combination of this thread here and the simultaneous story The Man Who Wouldn't Be King

Geeks should volunteer their time more than the norm.[...]I hadn't really thought seriously about voluteering before reading this, but it appears that public schools are desperate enough to submit to the demands of greedy profiteers. Its got to stop, and it appears the only way to stop it is to offer alternatives.

Dude, do what you think is right, but I am not going to volunteer or donate anything so a school where:

the school principal charged that the 17-year-old Griffiths "disrupted school activities or otherwise willfully defied the valid authority of supervisors, teachers, administrators, school officials or other school personnel engaged in the performance of their duties." [for refusing the homecoming crown]

Put another way: I was suspended once, for getting beat up. Why on earth would I do anything for the institution that not only turned a blind eye on assault and battery, but reprised against a victim?

Face it: as geeks many of us have very schizophrenic attitudes about schools. On one hand, we say things like "we should contribute to our schools to advance learning and education and people picking themselves up by their bootstraps". On the other, our personal experience of school was, well, the Hellmouth.

Until the Hellmouth series here, it was possible -- or even highly plausible -- for geeks to look at their own experience as anomalous. They disregarded their first-person empirical evidence of what schools are like, so that they could continue to support the abstract ideal of schools. They could say "Yeah, I got beaten up every day at school, but schools are still a wonderful thing."

But now we know our experience isn't anomalous. Teachers are biggotted against the smart and the odd. Funding is poured into athletics and not academics. Violence against certain classes of students is condoned. And this happens all over, not just in isolated cases.

It's just about impossible for us to kid ourselves now. I can't be the only one who loathes the idea of supporting the institution which abused me.

How could I possibly be willing to give -- without restraints -- to an institution which is so vile, which treated me so vilely?

How do I know that if I donate computers to my local HS's computer lab, that they won't say "Great, we got computers for free this year, so we can take the new computer budget for the lab and spend it on the football team"??

How do I know that I am not enabling the school's continuing abuse of it's students? Do I want to work on a computer net which lets teachers know where teens surfed?

How do I know my serving as a volunteer would not be taken as a sign of endorsement of repressive school administrators or board members?

Frankly, at the absolute minimum, a school would have to convince me that it was addressing these issues, and that it was committed to improving them, before I would help it.

I want, bluntly, a quid pro quo. I want to know that if I give to them, they are going to work to improve the lot of the geeks and outcasts who are getting stepped on, and the civil rights of all students.

I'd far and away rather directly support the students, than the institutions: supporting non-school organizations which help students. There's no way I'd want to cart blanche give over any of my time and money to school administrators.

Re:Volunteering to Schools

[goliard]

Seems if people like you and me gave more back into our society (without worrying about who is "worthy" of our time), we'd have a lot less to bitch about.

Seems if people like you and me worried a little bit more about whether or not our contributions were used for good or evil (instead of giving to stroke our own egos) there'd be far less evil in the world.

Re:Volunteering to Schools

[goliard]

Maybe this is a shockingly naive thing to say, but perhaps you could contribute to its reformation?

Yeah, shockingly naive.

BTDT. Volunteer teacher, both in schools and independently.

I've been following school reform, and studying previous reform movements for 18 years, and I have come to the conclusion: the schools can't be reformed. They can only be dismantled.

For a crash course in the issue, and why the biggest names in school reform all abandoned the cause, I strongly recommend to you the writings of John Taylor Gatto and John Holt (especially the heartbreaking introduction to his "Teach Your Own").

Re:Volunteering to Schools

[goliard]

Email me if interested in pursuing conversation.

Brilliant.

[The Queen]

Thank you, that was eloquent...if only ALL parents felt this way.


"I'm not a bitch, I just play one on /."

Re:ads and personal data are not going to cut it

[josepha48]

Um, Network tv is dead in most areas, it's called cable tv now. And you pay for cable. Without cable in most of the places that I have lived you don't get GOOD tv reception if any (or you have satelite tv). The point is that only 5 channels or so broadcast purely network (ABC, UPN, WB, CBS, and NBC) and they don't usually have large antennas that reach every area. Now if you said radio I'd have to agree with you. However in the case of both TV and radio, neither of them are trying to collect data about the users the way that this company was. Yes there are the nelson ratings and things, but those are volunteers. Nor do they put ads where you have to see them. You cannot get up from your computer and go away and then when you come back the ads are gone, they are still there. Tv and radio you change channels during commercials and then change back. Or you have picture in picture.

I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!

Re:America is a corporatacracy, best learn it youn

[cyber-vandal]

Now, corporations do have their abuses, but they also have a vested interest in having healthy, affluent consumers purchasing their products.

What like RJR, McDonalds or Pizza Hut. Please. Corporations have one aim and one aim only - to make money. If they were interested in the average Joe's affluence, why have so many manufacturing jobs been exported to third-world countries to be replaced by minimum wage service jobs. Corporations are very short-term and abusive and wouldn't care if the world descended into anarchy, so long as they were the ones supplying the guns.

Not unhead of

[wmoyes]

The way I understand it my school district had a similar thing happen. They were promised a grant from a large nameless corporation in the one million-dollar range for computer equipment, and of course they purchased the equipment from the large corporations educational subsidiary. Well the machines arrived, but the grant didn't (I never did find out why they bought the machines without the grant first). Since I was only a student I wasn't in on the full details, but I did get a ear full whenever I went to help fix one of the 'broken' computers.

P.S. For any local computer genius, be careful when offering help to your school. After getting pulled out of class three times in one week for an 'emergency' I had to politely explain that it was inappropriate. Yes it was fun for a while, but trust me, it will get worse than your grandparents/uncle/any other relative asking for computer help.

They had the money. . .

[T. Emthrie]

To do it right. From the archives of the state.

The Beginning

On Dec. 19, 1991, Southern Local and Northern Local school districts filed a lawsuit against the state in the Perry County Common Pleas Court on behalf of Nathan DeRolph, a sophomore in the Northern Local school district. The suit alleged that Pennsylvania's public school funding system was unconstitutional. At the conclusion of the case, Judge Linton Lewis, Jr. ruled that Pennsylvania's system of school funding was unconstitutional. The decision was appealed, and on Aug. 30, 1995 the Pennsylvania Fifth District Court of Appeals reversed Judge Lewis' decision. The case was then appealed, and the Pennsylvania Supreme Court accepted jurisdiction of the case on Jan. 17, 1996.

(Back to top)

DeRolph I: The Pennsylvania Supreme Court's First Decision

On March 24, 1997, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled that Pennsylvania's public school financing system violates Section 2, Article VI of the Pennsylvania Constitution, which mandates a thorough and efficient system of common school throughout the state. This decision is now known as "DeRolph I."

The Supreme Court's majority opinion cited these specific statutes unconstitutional:

• Operation of the school funding program;
• The emphasis of Pennsylvania's school funding system on property tax may no longer be used as the primary source of funding;
• The requirement of school districts borrowing through the spending reserve and emergency school assistance loan programs; and
• A lack of sufficient funding in the General Assembly's biennium budget for the construction and maintenance of public school buildings.
• The Supreme Court would not retain jurisdiction of the case because it is the trial court's responsibility to rule on the constitutionality of the enacted legislation and render an opinion. Either party could then appeal the trial court's decision directly to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

(Back to top)

The State's Response

After DeRolph I, the General Assembly introduced many different types of legislation and ideas to create a new educational funding system.

Joint subcommittees were formed to create recommendations and many senators and representatives developed their own recommendations. On Jan. 28, 1998, the legislative leaders from the House and the Senate announced a school funding plan. The plan was placed in House Bill 650 (HB 650), and the funding component was a joint resolution that authorized the issuance of general obligation bonds to pay for school facilities. The joint resolution was placed on the ballot and passed by voters on Nov. 2, 1999.

Additional legislation was passed to support the new school funding system. Below is a list of key legislation for the school funding system:

• Senate Bill 102: Created the Pennsylvania School Facilities Commission and provided $300 million in appropriations. Signed May 20, 1997.
• Senate Bill 55: Established school district performance standards. Signed August 22, 1997.
• House Bill 412: Provided for fiscal accountability by requiring school districts to maintain budget reserves, set-asides for building maintenance, textbooks and instructional materials and created the school district solvency assistance fund. Signed August 22, 1997.
• House Bill 650: Outlined the methodology for determining the base cost of an education for 1999 through 2004 and provided $170 million in appropriations for school facilities construction, including an additional $30 million for the Emergency Repair Program. Signed February 13, 1998.
• House Bill 1: Implemented the PennsylvaniaReads initiative that provided reading grants and volunteer tutors to help youngsters from kindergarten through fourth grade improve their reading skills. Signed March 30, 1999.
• House Bill 282: This bill marked the first time the state created an education budget separate from its main operating budget as required in HB 650. Signed June 30, 1999.
• Senate Joint Resolution 1: Authorized issuance of general obligation bonds to pay for school facilities. Approved by voters November 2, 1999.
• Senate Bill 192: Committed $2.5 billion over 12 years for school construction and repair. The funding was a result of the money received by the state from the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement. Signed March 3, 2000.

Click here for a complete list of legislative activity on school funding.

On February 26, 1999 Judge Lewis ruled the state's response unconstitutional and the case was appealed directly to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

(Back to top)

DeRolph II: The Pennsylvania Supreme Court's Second Decision

On May 11, 2000, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled in a 4-3 decision that the state's response to the 1997 DeRolph case had not met the "thorough and efficient" standard set in Section 2, Article VI of the Pennsylvania Constitution. The Supreme Court majority cited seven specific areas to be addressed by the state:

• Continued reliance on local property taxes as a primary means to fund Pennsylvania's schools has not been specifically addressed.
• The cost of an adequate education formula that was revised by the state has structural deficiencies and may not reflect the actual amount per pupil that is required to provide an adequate education.
• Continuing attention must be given to the mechanism implemented to fund the construction of new school facilities and to repair older, decaying school buildings, until the task is complete. Additionally, requiring local districts to pass levies as a prerequisite for obtaining state funding should be reviewed.
• The School Solvency Assistance Fund established by House Bill 412 must be reevaluated, so that funds are available and used only in case of extreme emergencies.
• The unfunded mandates in House Bill 412 and Senate Bill 55 must be addressed and immediately funded.
• The phenomenon known as phantom revenue (when the growing property wealth of a school district gives the illusion of an increasing revenue stream that is not realized by the school district for a variety of reasons) has not been eliminated.
• Strict, statewide academic guidelines must be developed and rigorously followed throughout all of Pennsylvania's public school districts.

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court will retain jurisdiction of the case and continue it until June 15, 2001, when the state will need to prove they have sufficiently addressed the issues listed above.

(Back to top)

ads and personal data are not going to cut it

[josepha48]

Giving people stuff for free and sending them ads is not going to be and isn't an effective business model. With programs like proxomotron (windows) which can filter web page ads and web page content including javascript src and iframe/ilayer, I can block ALL ads from a site. With mozilla I can also block images from certain sites as well as cookies f I choose. There is more tech like that coming which is going to make it difficult for sites to just collect data on there visitors. They'll need to rely just on http data, like IP address and user agent and stuff like that.

This company had to have been stupid if they thought they could get data from school kids. That is a BIG issue today and it is just not going to fly with parents. hey some web portols don't even allow people under 13 to join and get acounts. I am ammazed that they thought that they would even try to get info from students. If I were an IT admin at that school, I'd set up the systems that students use for surfing and what not, so that they could not submit this kind of data to begin with even if that meant coding a program that would block post operations (except to certain permitted sites like search engines google) at the firewall level. Yes that can be done it is just http header info.

maybe web sites need a rating system. Like a meta tag that says

meta name=rating content=r

Then if people used this then you could filter out sites that are r rated like porn or maybe content=porn would be more appropriate.

I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!

Re:ads and personal data are not going to cut it

[frankie]

I'd set up the systems that students use for surfing and what not, so that they could not submit this kind of data to begin with

Last year my department went to a ZapMe demo session at a local school. I'm pretty sure that the ZapMe contract specifically forbids altering the systems they loan you.

For the record, here's how it worked (IIRC): ZapMe equips one or more labs with a bunch of mid-range PCs running a modified NT workstation. The PC desktop is not accessible -- instead there is a shell with a corner advert box and buttons for access to various apps, mainly MS Office & a stripped-down MSIE with no address bar (to prevent kids from wandering off to "unapproved" sites). These are not general-purpose PCs by any stretch of the imagination.

The PCs connect to the Net by way of an NT server. The server uses a modem for outbound traffic (mainly just GET requests and the all-important user data) and a satellite dish for inbound traffic.

Um, does anyone read dates?

[TBone]

ZapMe! (Stupid exclamation point) has has a controlling percentage of their shares bought by r)star (stupid parenthesis) networks, a satellite broadband provider. They no longer pursue the educational service, they provide net access.

scary scheme, odd ideals

[Dentster]

Personally I think this idea is crazy, it's also a little scary. The whole idea that these people are giving schools computers for students to view adds, that seems a bit dumb to me. Why don't school just go out and hire some IT person and then go get a deal from some company like intel or whatever, schools get a large discount for computer products. Now that this company, ZapMe is going out on their free-computer like deal not only are the dumb schools who signed up for their computers kind of screwed, they're gonna pay for them or they're gonna take them away. Yet that part is the plain part. Now why would a school force or make students view ads to use their computers. Thats a bit atrocious, not that people wouldn't find ways to get around it, but the idea of that kind of target advertising in a school...it's sort of absurd. The company even says it reserved the right to track where students were going individually, even though they supposedly never collected more than age, sex and ZIP. What kind of company is this, it sounds like a damned advertising agency that gives schools computers in exchange for schools giving their students info to the advertisers.

Good, another corrupter of the colleges dead.

[AFCArchvile]

If this hit my campus, I would've become incensed. Not only is the college's contracted ISP short-changing us students on bandwidth, but our Social Security number acts as our Student ID number! Giving this to ZapMe! would've resulted in some inevitable Social Security fraud.

Fortunately, not even Channel One casts its demonic tendrils on my college. I'm safe... for now.

Re:Good, another corrupter of the colleges dead.

[frankie]

Fortunately, not even Channel One casts its demonic tendrils on my college.

I'd be a little skeptical about the quality of your college if Channel One were there, because it's designed for children in middle and high school. So is ZapMe, AFAIK.

I used to teach at a school that had Channel One. A TV set mounted on the wall of every classroom is a fair trade for watching a reasonably informative 5 minute news broadcast each day. One minute of commercials (ChannelOne) is MUCH less evil than continuous streaming adverts with audio (ZapMe). Not to mention having to use NT Workstation...shudder.

This is nothing new.

[AFCArchvile]

Just today, I saw an American Express rep trying to give people credit card accounts on campus. "Be launched into uncontrollable debt with no money down! Forget bankruptcy; we only seek lobotomy!"

Pay for the right to disrupt class!

[erinlee]

ZapMe seems to be asking the schools, "We'll pay you with loans of unreliable computer equipment for the right to distract your kids during class." If one of their classmates were to disrupt and distract the class similarly, they'd likely get suspended. Following this logic, perhaps the guy at Mira Costa could loan the school a malfunctioning computer in exchange for his refusal to accept the homecoming crown and various other "disruptive" acts. Ya think?

Cultural immunization

[kfg]

>I know it's important to protect children from bad influences

No, it is NOT important to protect children from "bad influences."

It is important the teach children how to DEAL with bad influences in a positive manner.

In our current social structure we forcably maintain children as innocents, and then, when they hit 18, say " You're an adult now, behave like one."

But we've never * taught them HOW to behave as adults.* No wonder college age 'kids' have a reputation for appaling behaviour.

The role of a parent is NOT to protect children, but rather to teach them to protect themselves.

Company Name Change

[Mignon]

In response to their failures, the ZapMe corporation has changed its name and will now be known as FuckMe.

Re:IANAL, but...

[jovlinger]

nah, it's just that as a rule teachers are not the savvyest bunch of grapes on the vine. They love to teach (not much point being a teacher for the pay these days) so you're not going to get the sort of person who scrutinises a contract for every loophole and repercussion (sp?).

"well meaning" is probably the best generalisation, as it captures the intuitive notion of the strengths and weaknesses of educators as a generalisation.

This is why the companies who prey on this mentality are such slime, IMHO.

I've done field service for ZapMe!!! :(

[fu_man]

This shure does explain a lot things I saw! Just recently my company was contacted to go and service some of zapMe's school sites here in LA, and guess what I saw? To start with, they had these cheesy Toshiba servers on a cable modem networked to a few toshiba desktops. Their app is this horribly dislexic looking mock of IE (their "custom" browser), which upon running makes you sign in or start a new account with all you "secret info". And knowing most kids, they probably filled 'em all in. They then proceed to run these fast moving ads at the bottom of the screen... I had to Laugh, you could barely follow them. The whole setup gave me a bad feeling. Why such a beefy server? Why the very personal info?

Something on the side - I heard through them that most of their sites were experiencing (various) PC problems (mostly on the servers), and their fix was to reimage, sounds good except they had no image CD's left (sounding like this happened often), and had been out for a few MONTHS.

------------------------
./ME :)
------------------------

Re:I've done field service for ZapMe!!! :(

[Sadfsdaf]

And knowing most kids, they probably filled 'em all in.

Well here at Bellarime, we had zapme for a while, but ended up using the school's t1(?). From what I remember, no one put in the personal information, and it was excellent entertainment the first day on what to put into the entry fields. I would say 90% of the forms were filled out as 'female' checked (this is an all boys school). Of course, the people didn't put in real information probably because it was fun, rather than because they were worried about privacy...

I'm sorry to hear this

[Bob Abooey]

This is interesting stuff. I lived in the Valley while I was attending grad school and I lived on the same block as the CEO of ZapMe. We found that we were both heavy into technology and we used to go to dinner together quite frequently. In fact if you are ever in the Valley you should stop in at La Guizina
that was our favorite place to eat. (The flambou is excellent)
I always felt like royalty back then because it was nothing for a lot of uber-powerful people to stop by our table and say hello. I met people like Larry Ellison, Steve Case, Scott McNealy and Linus himself. Linus was really cool, we had a lengthy discussion about the use of function pointers to let C simulate C++ functionality. Anyways, I know it's considered passé to drop names but all these guys were really cool. I would wait to hear more info before beliving that the guys at Zapme did anything wrong.

Re:I'm sorry to hear this

[DigitalCutie]

umm.. and how does this really relate to the topic? and do we care if you met these ppl or not? the main answer is NO ..go back to doin whats best for ya..and kiss some more ass.

What a frightening scheme

[Jon Erikson]

The idea that schools should engage in this kind of marraige with a corporation is both frightening and typical of modern USia. Rather than encouraging education, the single most important thing a government can do for its citizens, the USian government has left its schools adrift, forcing them to rely on dubious commercial ventures like this just to get basic equipment!

Education is an area where commercialism could poison an entire generation, and it's already happening as cash-starved schools turn to greedy corporations all too willing to get their hooks into children from an early age. And whilst libertarians would love for our children to become happy corporate drones, if you're worried about the future of our nation, this story is an indication of the problem.

Anyone who thinks that corporations have any place within schools is an idiot, and is obviously more concerned with saving a few dollars a month than providing for the future of a nation's children.

Re:What a frightening scheme

[Kierthos]

The only place corporations should have withing schools is donating equipment on a unconditional basis for the betterment of the students. They'll get good press off of doing so, name recognition with the students, and that should be it.

No garnering of personal information, no conditions on use, etc. I'd love to see more corporations donate computers that they don't use any more (a lot of corps buy new computers all the time and just dump the old ones) to help students out. Unfortunately, we have dingbats like Zap...

I hope they get everything that is coming to them. (Vindictive? Moi?)

Kierthos

Re:What a frightening scheme

[Mr. Slippery]

Frankly, I find the idea that government has such a huge hand in education equally innocuous. What more perfect place for a government to brainwash it's citizens with it's propaganda.

You know, I'm not really too worried about the Baltimore County government inflicting propaganda on students. What are they going to do, feed students jingoism about how superior we are than people across the river in Howard County?

So long as things are still controlled at the local level, I don't see that public schools are any more propaganda centers than private ones. Certainly less so that religious schools, which constitute the majority of private schools around here.

Re:What a frightening scheme

[T. Emthrie]

I strongly disdagee.

Your post speaks to a marrage of business and education. They are one in the same. The business of governement that is. If the UUS government (the biggest business) encouraged a more socialist view, this would never have happened. The people of the US are under the false impression that they live in a democracy. They don't. They live in a republic. Big difference. Democrocy has failed time and time again throughout history, why do the arrogant americans beleive it will succeed this time? Because they are mainly steeped deep in the fundamental beleif that they, as citizens can overcome and do it on their own. Fact is they can't. You need a powerful governement to assist and pave the way for the citizens to succeed. The americans beleive the government is only there to build roads and basic infrastructure. You have the tools use them!

Big suprise...

[Cool Hand Luke]

...a scheme to make money of a bunch of hyper, sugar-powered kids fails. The teachers can hardly keep Johnny's attention long enough to explain why OH- bonds with H+ because of its extra electron, nevermind a company trying to keep Johnny's attention long enough to explain why the cool kids will bond with him because of his extra cool electron-colored sneakers.

George Lee

IANAL, but...

[Kierthos]

If the contract between the school and the corporation was for free computers, no conditions, then they can't turn around and charge for the computers, no matter what. It's called Breach of Contract, or something like that.

Now, mind you, if the contract had some agreement that the ads would be available for students to use at their discretion, then they still shouldn't be able to charge for the computers, because freedom of choice lets the students answer the ads or not answer the ads at their choice.

Finally, if the contract said that X percentage or X many students had to fill out the ads, then I believe it is patently unenforceable, because a contract between two parties cannot govern a third party who is not a signator of the contract. Which means that the contract would have been made in Bad Faith and is null. Whether the computers have to be returned or not, I don't know, but the schools still shouldn't have to pay for them.

Again, IANAL.

Kierthos

ZapMe! nothing more than professional con artists!

[quamper]

From the start of hearing about the ZapMe! program. At the time when it was at it's "peak" I was working as a network administrator for a fairly large public highschool where one of the science teachers was on fire to sign up. I pretty much stayed out if it and let them deal with it all so I wouldn't be responisble for the consequences. After going to a couple of technology conferences and talking to some of the ZapMe! reps (every time I talked with them they were dressed in a costume! Santa/Bunny/Chicken!&!& never could figure that out!)

Any ways didn't sound too bad, but I refused to sign anything and eventually the school board decided to go with the go ahead to sign up. Well luckily before they signed all the final papers one of the lawyers was going over some of the contract information and they had altered the agreement at the last minute! You can rip of big companies all you want and you can swindle home users because they're idiots! (not flaming just trying to make a point!) But conning public schools is the worst thing in the world! They barely have enough money as it is pay the teachers let alone buy computers!

And for the record we had Channel One and there is no way I would compare it to ZapMe! I was very impressed with Channel One, they were nice as could be and legit all the way. And the commercials for the most part were funny or at least not annoying.
---

Re:America is a corporatacracy, best learn it youn

[Fat Rat Bastard]

Face it, despite the ravings of Browne and Nader...

Ravings of Browne? Browne isn't anti-business. Not in the least. Where the hell did you get that idea?

The scariest part of the article

[Rurik]

Donna Unterreiner, a library media specialist for the Margaret Buerkle Junior High School in St. Louis, said that the ZapMe lab had been "a godsend for us," since the school district had not been able to pass bond issues that would have otherwise paid for Internet access. The advertising, she said, did not bother her or her students. "Can you turn on a computer anywhere, and they don't have ads on them?" she asked.

I can not believe this. Now the whole computer industry is so tainted and jaded in the eyes of everyday people that they see no problem in advertisements all over their machine. Since when does using a computer entitle you to having to watch dozens of ads sucking up your bandwidth. But it's now a common conception in our minds that that is what has to happen. If we want a computer, we get ads. If we want internet, we have to watch ads on every page. If we want to play games, we have to watch ads.

Re:Well, What did they think. .

[aardvarkjoe]

No, some teachers are incompetant. (I had my share of those while in school.) But there's no way they're overpaid. The starting salary where I live (IIRC), is about $23,000. If there started close to $40,000, it would be fine, but not many people are willing to work the extremely long hours, on starvation wages. That's why there's such a shortage of teachers, and many of the ones we have don't have a clue ... because they can't get anyone else.

Most of the administrators are grossly overpaid and completely inept. In high school, my principal was completely clueless, and perpetually drunk. She caused nothing but trouble, and all the teachers hated her. (I was fortunate to have quite a few very good teachers, but that's the exception rather than the rule.) The brand-new school superintendant is making well over $200,000 a year. (He gets paid as much as 8 teachers put together for showing up to meetings and saying things like, "I think that we should try to have a 100% graduation rate." Not exactly the correct wording, but that's what he said.) My high school physics teacher taught 7 classes a day, with 35-40 students in each class, as well as being the head of the science department, because they couldn't be bothered to hire someone else to take some of the load.

It's depressing that conditions never get better, even though politicians keep on claiming that they're constantly raising school budgets. In truth, there's so much corruption in the public school system that it will never get better until we get rid of the pork and the overhead that sucks up every available dollar.

Re:What's wrong with some commercialism in schools

[Surak]

Here, I'll do the problem on the board:

20 Marlboros in a pack
1/2 * 20 Marlboros = 10 Marlboros
20 Marlboros - 10 Marlboros = 10 Marlboros
10 Marlboros - 1 Marlboro = 9 Marlboros
1/3 * 9 Marlboros = 3 Marlboros
9 Marlboros - 3 Marlboros = 6 Marlboro


Is the answer lung cancer? :)

I'll admit this is somewhat off topic but....

[dasunt]

Is there anyway that Slashdot could get an equivalent of a general user's account at the New York Times? There seems to be plenty of stories that are linked to the paper, and we must send plenty of traffic in their direction, has anyone at Slashdot/Andover tried to come to an agreement with the NYT over being able to copy the article cited or have a slashdot account all slashdot users could use?

I'm probably spitting into the wind here, but it can't hurt to ask now.

Re:I'll admit this is somewhat off topic but....

[Fist Prost]

I think what he means is something where traffic coming from slashdot is automatically let into a story, without having to log in at all.

Perhaps if they explained that pretty much noone here is going to give correct demographic information to read stories about invasion of privacy (can you smell the irony here?)anyway. I would reccomend Roblimo or whoever does the wheeling/dealing get in touch with them, and in exchange for not having everyone here mess with their marketing department by listing themselves as 120 year old brain surgeons with interests in cars and modeling, offer some basic info that would still allow them to target ads to traffic coming from slashdot (computer companies, technotoys, etc) so that we could click a link and have it log in with a blessed generic user/pass, and everyone wins.

Failing that, just click the link and on the login page, erase everything up to and including the second "www" and type in there "partners". Works every time...

Fist Prost

"We're talking about a planet of helpdesks."

Re:I'll admit this is somewhat off topic but....

[Mr. Slippery]

Failing that, just click the link and on the login page, erase everything up to and including the second "www" and type in there "partners".

Or use "cypherpunks01" as the login and password.

My preferred quotes:

[f5426]

"To its founders, ZapMe had a noble vision defeated by a handful of naysaying activists opposed to any commercialism in schools and ready to jump to conclusions about the company's use of data about the students' computer use"

"It's heartbreaking for me," he said. "That opportunity we gave America's schools was taken away" by "a few people."

Do what you want, but I will have a drink tonight. If all privacy-fucking ideas (can anyone says digital convergence ?) could die this way...

Cheers,

--fred

Re:What's wrong with some commercialism in schools

[Chris Pimlott]

The answer is "Smooth Marlboro flavor"

Channel One

[trolebus]

I used to go to a school in California that subscribed to a service called Channel 1. Basically in excange for free TVs and VCRs the school would show us an add ridden, could not be called news by any stretch of the immagination, "news" program that lasted about 20 minutes a morning. While it was a great time to get some homework done it was sickening to see how low schools had to go to get equipment. The really sad part is that even though they got all that gear very few teachers even used it.

It was amazing how many people took it for real news. Some of their tech coverage bordered on blantant lying.

Do school kids need brand new PCs and broadband?

[disenfranchised]

While I was working for the UW, my boss and I would head over to University surplus and pick up a stack of 486's and early pentiums. He was an authorized buyer for his kid's elementary school, and we could pick up a stack of 5 pcs for about US$ 100. Out of the five, we could generally build three or four working systems. Together with the odd scanner or die hard HP LaserJet, we could ensure adequate computers in his kids classrooms.

Granted, I wasn't providing training or support, and beyond the occasional semi-defective hub I wasn't providing any networking either. But that's still a far cry from US$3,000/school/month. What level of advertising revenue were they expecting to pull to cover that kind of expenditure?

Frankly, providing adequate computing resources to schools is almost never as expensive as it's made out to be. Some courses, maybe CAD or programing in high school might require faster systems or high end monitors. But word processing, spread sheets, typing courses, or searching the web for useful content and the like don't require a screaming fast system or connection.

Re:When will we learn

[istartedi]

aka TANSTAAFL, which sounds like a city near Istanbul, but isn't.

Re:America is a corporatacracy, best learn it youn

[mooredav]

Face it, despite the ravings of Browne and Nader, our children will grow up in an America that's largely controlled by corporations.

Check out some of Nader's "ravings" here, including the damning truth about ZapMe (Commercial Alert is a group founded by Nader).

This is one way in which Nader differs from the two major presidential candidates. All of them see a decline in the childhood experience, but the Bush/Gore response is to censor or rate film, television and the internet. In contrast, Nader's solutions prevent the over-commercialization of schools. Whereas Bush and Gore propose mandatory internet filters in schools and libraries, Nader wants to eliminate Channel One, ZapMe, exclusive soft drink contracts with schools, etc.

America was founded by corporations (Hudson BAy Company, anyone), and corporations have caused America to become the great place it is, do you remember "What's good for General Motors is good for America."

ZapMe will not contribute to anyone's future greatness. The junk products peddled by ZapMe and their destructive advertising strategies do not add overall value to America or anywhere else.

a bit extreme?

[Thackeri]

Erm, is it just me or isn't the site obligation.org a little extreme, strident, odd? Two bits that jumped out at me were:

• [pic of doom II box] Picture of ultra-violent video game taken from ZapBuys web site.
  
  
• [pic of marylin manson] ZapMe! allows children to have full access to Amazon.com. All they need is a credit card number and they can order the most vile music and sleaziest movies. Make no mistake - ZapMe! wants to convert children's allowance money into revenue for its advertisers. That is how they will make money.

I know it's important to protect children from bad influences but I don't think the people who wrote the page referred to are particularly objective on this.

Not that I'm standing up for amazon but they're hardly major corrupters of children. It wouldn't suprise me if this site is against the Simpsons and Buffy!

Thank goodness this is in America!

No need to signup with NYT

[biftek]

As usual, try the partners.nytimes link

http://partners.ny tim es.com/2000/11/02/technology/02COMP.html

Bad business models.

[tippergore]

One more example of a bad business model that should have never been accepted by anyone. Just like channel one, students get a small benefit in exchange for the inescapable corporatist propaganda they are forced to swallow.

This stuff is partially our fault. Geeks should volunteer their time more than the norm. Imagine what could be accomplished if a few nerds got ahold of a four thousand dollars? You could build many good usable computers for that pricetag. Maybe they wouldn't be up to par for running Word 2000, but they would certainly be capable of teaching introductory to advanced computer courses, that's for sure.

Microsoft 'innovation' forces many schools to get into an inescapable loop of buying newer hardware to run software that's not all that much different from previos versions. My friend is currently working as a student teacher, and he's completely stranded technologically when he enters the school. They just don't have the resources or the know-how to get wired, a little linux and a little help would help out a lot.

I hadn't really thought seriously about voluteering before reading this, but it appears that public schools are desperate enough to submit to the demands of greedy profiteers. Its got to stop, and it appears the only way to stop it is to offer alternatives.

What's wrong with some commercialism in schools?

[paeanblack]

Bobby buys a pack of Marlboro Lights. He smokes alf of them, then a friend bums one, then he smokes a third of what's left. How many does he have left?

KRAFT:NABISCO as THE GAP:
a) WALMART
b) ANN TAYLOR
c) L.L. BEAN
d) SEAGRAMS

Describe the process used by Dr. Hammond to bring the dinosaurs back from extinction:

----------------------------
Viral marketing of your test answers will require taking student ethics classes.

America is a corporatacracy, best learn it young

[Hairy_Potter]

Respectfully, I beg to disagree.

America is a corporatacracy, always has been, alwyas will. America was founded by corporations (Hudson BAy Company, anyone), and corporations have caused America to become the great place it is, do you remember "What's good for General Motors is good for America."

Face it, despite the ravings of Browne and Nader, our children will grow up in an America that's largely controlled by corporations. Which child will be better suited for life in such a world, one who has experienced the give and take or corporations from day one, and knows that anything a corporation gives you will have a price tag, or a child reared in a socialistic society where the real price tag for things is dsiguised in fees and taxes.

What child will be better adjusted, a child who is used to watching corporations fiercely battle and evolve, or die out, or a child who has had their socialistic world suddenly trampled upon a change of governments?

Now, corporations do have their abuses, but they also have a vested interest in having healthy, affluent consumers purchasing their products. The only consumer goverments have are welfare clients.