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3Dwm Updates
Robert Karlsson writes "3Dwm, the Three-dimensional window manager, an open source project at Chalmers Medialab, has just released a new, extensive release of 3Dwm, release 0.2.2 - VNC support, 3D scene graph, big texture splitting, client connection, framework, 3D materials support, testsuite added." miles away from a real desktop, but a great testbed for those ideas that are way ahead of their time.
AFAIK, the quake engine is very streamlined for 3d. If you were to use it as a windowing environment you could really strip it down by removing all the "game" options. The requirements for it are no longer considered high IMO.
What I find strange is that Win 95 will run fine on a 486, but in my experience X chokes with insufficent ram. X itself is bloated, and building a WM on top of that adds to the problem. Quakes footprint is not ALL that bad, and again, you would have to modify the code for your specific purpose anyhow.
I would love to get Carmacks opinion on this.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
--Ben
The critique of the idea of a 3D windowmanager doesn't take into account it was built for a computing environment that ISN'T a desktop (the Cube) and secondly, there may very well be some applications of this we aren't yet aware of.
I agree that burying Linux, typically the darling OS of the "why do I need a GUI when I can just grep -v -x | sed -qvf | tar -qt32pir2 : smeek -frfk > kibble.rpm ?????" set, in a 3D window manager seems weird: a total waste of CPU cycles, a criminal waste of memory, and an exponentially bad version of Microsoft Bob (eye candy that actually got in the way).
But who knows? Maybe someone will come up with a way of visualising and representing data that'll only make sense this way.
Time mechanics data? Physics data? Who knows?
Just because I can't think of a reason for this yet doesn't mean one exists.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Yes, the program that she was using was a real program available for real unix systems--you can download it from SGI's web-site.
-rozzin.
Actually, that app actually exists for SGI boxen!
They mean VNC support at the viewer side. So there is a cool 3D VNC viewer.
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
The horrible part is that this is how you actually DO picture a 4d space =).
yes, but without neat cool things to do there would be no reason to make the computers more stable and more fast would there?
We wouldnt have to worry about using anything but those "totally adequate" 386's ehh?
If no one ever dared to push the limits of everything, and of no one ever dared to be different or try something new how would we know what works and what doesnt?
Jeremy
Somebody post a mirror.
----------
Technoli
Big deal, almost every window managing system ever made has incorporated the dimension of time. Though some implementations are spottier than others. For instance, the dimension of time seemed to crash and freeze quite often on my old windows box, though the other two dimensions seemed mostly unaffected.
I did some work using EMG signals to operate as a system controller. It gets to the point after calibration (which takes many many minutes) that you can control the signals with slight twitches instead of full motion. I think that haptics/gloves are more or less stupid unless it's a system that is designed to interpret natural movement and not a programmed controlling (Move your hand 4" up, then 2" right then 2" left and wiggle your thumb to right click). With EMG reads you can twitch.. slight muscle movements that are barely perceptible that become like second nature. That was the goal, my term working on this we never got a "functional" interface.. the mouse just got real jittery but it was a starting point.
If you are interested in fully interactive controls look at that technology - biocontrol has some cool toys to play with too
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Don't get me wrong, I'd rather this existed than not, but wtf, how is this "way ahead of its time"!?!?!?
If the only thing we can vary in our user interfaces is how many dimensions they display, its going to be a long time before we make any inroads into dealing with large amounts of data using arbitrarily generated paradigms that minimize the energy input required to acquire a particular piece of information.
DATA--that is, what computers deal with--DOES NOT require a user interface mapped to the tangible nature of our reality.
People seem obsessed with the question, "Where is it??? How is it arranged?? How is it layed out???" while the question "WHAT is it??" seems to elude them.
Sorry if this post seems angry, but this isn't ahead of its time at all. Our interfaces and computers are BEHIND the times. (assuming objective time... yeah, we're both wrong I guess)
Just my $.02, and yes, I am working on my own interface, but I am only 1 person, so it's going to be awhile.
--
Disgruntled AC
A 3D WM itself might be somewhat of a nuisance (as is the case with 3Dwm), but adding 3D support directly into the WM would be useful. Using hardware to do anti-aliasing and alpha blending and so forth would certainly take a good amount of load off the system, and would be much faster then trying to do things at the software level. *cough* imlib2 *cough*.
I have heard of a generator that makes random quake levels on the fly. I would love to find it again. I have an idea for a mod/game that could really make use of that technology.
You could I suppose use flexible design in the way you used the brushes to create the level. You are correct though. The BSP design is fast when the level is already VIS'ed. Good point.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
Note to moderators: check the posting time before moderating something as redundant. Also mine was my own project done on an apple ][c *with* stereo-scoping.
I would much rather have a windowing system that used what hardware I had to its full extent instead of trying to perform the same tasks in software. You might not like purchasing 3d hardware, but do you really prefer going out and spending unholy amounts of money on a new processor just so all the stuff your 3d card can do faster in hardware, can be mimicked in software, and run more responsively? If stuff was done properly from the beginning there wouldn't be as many problems. Naturally, if you want to use a 3d window manager you should have a 3d card. Or if you want to use a 2d window manager that uses 3d for some stuff then you would want your hardware to work properly with it. That of course reduces portability, but then again, some loss of portability is pretty essential.
My fondest wish is for a window manager that could nest windows rather than using the "virtual desktop" approach. Sort of like the Xnest X server, but lighter weight. Instead of switching to a different portion of a desktop that won't fit on the screen, you'd make a new (blank) window. An application started in that window would create all of its subwindows in the same window, so, e.g., the whole batch could be iconified and moved around as a group. Actually, I don't know enough about the X protocol to even tell if this is possible, but I can always dream. If anyone is thinking about writing X window manager #1734...
David
The reaction of /.'ers to some cool (but not immediatly useful) technology is, to say the least, scary. You'd think nobody ever said,
"An x86 UNIX clone? Who needs that? What's the point if we have BSD already? And its not like x86 will ever be fast enough to run UNIX or anything! Why bother?" -Microsoft Weenie circa 1991.
Be open to new ideas or the dynamicism and vision that made computers successful will dissapear. Even if an idea isn't immediatly useful in raising your Q3 fps or running your JAVA project faster, it might still help in the future. The thinking that I've seen on Slashdot lately is probably the same thinking that led Xerox to invent a networked set of GUI computers exchanging email and not capitalize on *ANY* of it!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
This has rather more to show for it, though.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
You should check out the XFree Render Extension that's being developed by Keith Packard (homepage here). This does antialiased text in X using your exisiting 3D accelerator (if possible). It also supports REAL alpha transparancy unlike the "let's make this Term psuedo transparent for this screenshot" crap you see all over the place. -adnans
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
We currently use 2D programs to do 3D editing.
Would it be possible to use these 3D programs to do 4D editing?
That would really be something *new*
http://www.xspace.net/hotsauce/ Very cool stuff - what ever happened to it?
Just thought I'd point out that one of the main limiting factors of 3Dwm, Berlin, and similar projects becoming more than just toys is that the hardware support just isn't there. (Yes it is, if you're running under X, but that's kind of defeating the purpose, now, isn't it..?) We need a lower-level hardware acceleration protocol. DRI is nice and all, but it's X-only. Unless people start pulling X and it's drivers apart, the ball's never going to get rolling, and we're going to end up with a lot of projects that started off great, but never really went anywhere because normal everyday users couldn't use 'em.
... Well, I'm guessing you can. I still haven't found one, myself.
Several attempts have been made already to rectify this, but it doesn't look like there's been anything major really accomplished. DRI is still where all of the manpower goes, even though projects like GGI/KGI exist.
Hopefully, someone will come out with a standard soon, and we can eliminate this kind of waste of effort. (Well, it's not likely, but we can hope, right..?)
Preferably, such a spec would allow for:
- kernel-level drivers that just pass along commands
- a library where all of the actual code exists, to keep the junk out of the kernel.
Actually, this is what KGI and GGI are.. but you can read about the XFree86 peoples' reasons for not going with their way of doing things for yourself.
(Incidentally, can anyone think of any reasons why this sort of thing ISN'T a good idea..?? I still haven't figured out myself why the XFree86 people are so hesitant to split X like this. Granted, it's an extra pipeline, but then again, that's pretty much what DRI is, too. And considering the added safety of not having a root application playing with kernel registers..)
James
Is this it? http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/
it's a joke that many people find funny
Respond to s
Well something similar has been done with Doom already, so why not Quake?
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
How does a mathematician picture a 4d space? He pictures an n-dimension space, then lets n=4.
God I love math humor.
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
I remember a post to slashdot a while back that basically said that antialiasing was only a remeant of keeping text readable on crappy monitors with low resoultion or some such. So theoretically it really isn't all that important.
Respond to s
Well, maybe not. :) But seriously, that's pretty neat.
The more plumbing you add, the easier it is to stop up the drain.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
This is something that actually could serve a more general, practical purpose than a 3d game engine: 3D visualization of workspace data. This, in my opinion, is a better justification for a hardware purchase than Q3.
I could tab-switch between the objects on my desk, and they would float 2 feet above it in front of me one at a time...
Seriously, though, this is a good point. If we're going to have a new sort of WM with new dimensions of navigation, then we should ideally have new input devices along with it. The mouse/trackball/whatever is already really inadequate in 2D space (to me)...
I seem to remember some people having gotten a Nintendo Power Glove connected and working with a PC as an input device, though that might not be the best idea unless you could still type, and preferably de/equip it quickly and easily. I remember trying the Power Glove when it first came out, and it wasn't exactly the easiest thing to use (although the argument could be made that neither is a mouse unless you're used to it, which is the same argument I use about Windows vs $OS)
Sotto la panca, la capra crepa
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Or were you trying to be funny?
-----
Klactovedestene!
Heh, chill down. Nobody is going to take away your beloved /bin/ps, /bin/kill etc.
On the other hand, consider this (taken from one of our servers at work):
load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
... and distributed.net isn't interactive enough for me.
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
What the hell does litestep have to do with a 3d WM?
Litestep is a buggy clone of AfterStep that makes windows slightly more usable but much less stable.. in no way is it remotely 3d or attemps to be that way.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Unfortunatly it already has been. Some time ago.
Back in 1996 I remember downloading quake levels that were exactly that.
It has been done with doom as well.
From what I understand the novelty of such things has worn off because I have not heard about it being done in Quake 2-3 or any other engine to date.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
BS.
I ran Linux/X on a 386/20 with 2 MB of RAM, 20 MB of disk and a Herc monochrome card a hell of a lot better than any competing "OS". Also note that X runs on Compaq's iPAQ handheld.
Joe
Joe Batt Solid Design
Anyway, they were primarily concerned with medical imaging and CAD type stuff. Probably all for the investors. Why do medical work when I can watch Windows crash in both 2d and holographic 3d?
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
If you have one of these then you need a 3Dwm. Dont you agree?
The 3D graphical file browser seen in Jurassic Park was fsn, a throwaway, proof-of-concept tool developed at SGI. It was real.
Free Hans!
BS
No, its not BS. As I said in my original post in my experience I have watched X choke. I was dual booting a 486 DX with 32 MB of ram and win 95 ran faster than Linux with X and FWMV95. Thats what I have witnessed. (RH 5.2 back in the day). Ok, maybe I don't know how to optimize X to give it better performance than explorer.exe. Fine.
Would you care to let me know how to do it? Because on my P-133 with 32 MB of ram X is still slow. On my primary machine (Celeron 450, 192 Mb of ram, matrox G400, dual boot) Windows does not have a chance. X just *SMOKES* explorer. It runs like a dog on the other machines.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
Quake is a great engine for FPS games, but its not nearly dynamic enough to be a useful core for something like this project. Are you going to wait 30 mins to a few hours while a new vis'd BSP data set is generated each time you want to rearrange the layout of your 3D desktop?
We've all gotten used to "3d" games on a very "2d" monitor - time to press forward!
Oh, and you know it has to be said: "Can you run a beowulf cluster inside 3dwm?" =^) -Ben
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
3d sounds nice but having a window manager need a massive 3d accelerator isn't something I rally go for.
Respond to s
There is no spoon.
Let me get this straight you are going to have something with the memory footprint and processing power that quake needs and add that to a window manager? Isn't Enlightenment powerful/wasteful enough?
Respond to s
That would be it. Thanks.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
God, that breaks me up every time I think about it. Hey, maybe they can try and get Hollywood to use this the next time they want to make a movie about "hackers". Then at least we'd be seeing something real.
dri X specific? no it's not...
DRI is an arbitration manager for direct rendering. anyone can use it, not just X...
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
I admit that improvement is there but what areas exactly?
Respond to s
John Carmack thoughtfully GPL'ed the Quake engine, why can't this be used for a WM?
Quake is a lean 3d graphics engine, and now with programmers working on it at sourceforge it can only improve. Heck, since you can run it from the command line you can completly bypass X! (Although too much software depends on X now...)
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
at the temperature of your overclocked 3d accelerator as the liquid metal streams down your leg
Respond to s
I'll admit that my desktop is crowded with apps and terminals and the extra dimension would give my alot more room to work. At the same time, I constantly loose stuff on my 'real' 3D desktop. I would be really pissed off to search for my email client for 10 minutes only to find it minimized in the far corner behind Mozilla.
It just so happens that the girl in the above quote was using something similar to this program so it's at least tangentially relevent.
Respond to s
quake 3 can run on a machine but it takes more system resources and therefore has a better chance of locking up the machine. When you want to do something like kill processes and the machine can barely move you really should have something a bit more portable.
Respond to s
It looks like the site is ALREADY slashdotted. Out of mercy, maybe we should warn sites that they are about to be buried under a mud slide of hits so they can make sure they don't lose important stuff when their machines die.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Or is there some other "VNC" acronym in play here?
There are some things that will create their own market. Of COURSE there's not much you can do with a 3d WM right now, 'cause there hasn't been one on which to do it! I'm sure there are plenty of applications in the dream-stage right now that will benefit greatly from such a setup.
Of course, you have to remember, this could also just be the first step to a real 3d WM. What I mean is, no matter what kind of 3d accelerator you have, no matter what 3d FPS games you play, no matter which 3dWM you use, you're still staring at a flat (or reasonably so anyway) screen in front of your face. Once the technology exists for TRUE holographic (or whatever) 3d display systems, you'll see the REAL benefit of all this. Of course, who's going to construct cool holographic displays before there's a good 3d WM to run on it.....? Get my point? I say more power to ya. Wish I could code like that so I could help ya.
Looks kinda cool, but it only runs on irix, and not very many people on slashdot can afford a sgi to run it on. To bad they don't provide the source.
A few hours grace before the madness begins again.
The website's unfortunatly all Flash 5, so you can find a summary (and the beta binaries) here if you're flash-intolerant.
But if you want my opinion, everything pales in comparison to Litestep :)
***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***
***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***
IF you ask me, this could well be the killer app that would put linux and/or other opensource/free software OS' on every desktop. (you do realize we need a killer app for that right?)
Surely a lot of people will just say no! waste of cycles, waste of memory, waste of time!, but i couldn't disagree more. If i could have a 3d view of 6 different programming sessions with a real time representation of runtime results i would. it doesn't matter how much hardware i throw at my current system, i just can't do this today. same for designers, engineers, etc. this would mean a real productivity boost.
which brings me to my point... with the current pointer/icon/double-click/window interface, there isn't much to gain on the productivity side even if you throw in 5 years of moore's law. we're stuck. it's the same thing that happened when the GUI first came along, everyone said it was a waste of resources, but now that we have the hardware we're glad they worked on it nonetheless.
of course we need a good navigation system an efficient way to handle objects, but both exist today: i'm pretty efficient in moving around in quake and homeworld, and i can move objects in 3d pretty easily using truspace or Max...
actually i think we're late in doing this. the hardware to support a totally 3d desktop is here (GTS Ultra, 1GHz CPU, 512MB Ram would probably do the job). it's just a few years before similar hardware is standard configuration for most. If by then linux (or similar) are the only platform that will give you an intuitive 3d environment, lots of people would get it.
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
"You did see Jurassic park, didn't you? You may remember the little twerp who sat down at a system and proceeded to zoom her way about the system in true Max Headroom 3D style."
They must have been using some sort of beta release of Mac OS X. I haven't seen the film in a long time, but I swear they said they were using UNIX, but all of the hardware had Apple logos on it. (Of course, I could be confusing details from the book with the Hollywood production).
I was just trying to be funny. 4dwm pretty much blows.
wog
There's a program called fsv that looks similar and works just fine under Linux and Mesa.
-jfedor
This sucker is not a window manager. Not mainly.
This is the 3-D equivalent of X-Windows.
Like X-windows, it allows many programs to run using the same resource. Only, instead of that resource being a 2-D plane, it's a 3D volume.
Take a look at this screenshot. It looks to me like the desk and the screen are being generated by two separate programs, through 3dwm. And it's apparently network-transparent.
What's really new about this seems to be the display of several 3-d programs in the same space, not the notion of a three-dimensional desktop.
I work for Microsoft. This has no effect on my intelligence or wisdom.
On Slashdot, however, it probably has negative effects on your Charisma...
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
You did see Jurassic park, didn't you? You may remember the little twerp who sat down at a system and proceeded to zoom her way about the system in true Max Headroom 3D style.
I look forward to the day when we replace /etc/passwd with a VRML file, MD5 sums with collision hulls, and the 31337 h4x0r 0wnz j00 only because of his superior dexterity.
Mark my words - all this Quake playing you do today - this practice of button reflex and mouse coordination - this is going to pay off in SPADES once we enter the world of - 3D SECURITY!
It's been done before. Anybody remember Chrome?
--- Hope Springs Eternal ---
Where did you go to school? Simple math here
For instance, with every mouse movement you have to calculate the new coordinates in a 3 space trialog, instead
of the old Cartesian method.
Even a first year calculus student knows this is BS. Moving to 3 space dosn't cause you to change from cartesian coordianates. No if for example you base your coordinates on rotational movement then you might have a point about doing something but even then it's not a function of a larger store of video ram but a faster processor.
Respond to s
Is it me, or is nobody taking this topic seriously? ... ^_^
Not that I don't mind, due to the fact that I'm busting a gut LMAO about some of the topics here
I don't have a fancy sig like you all do, so if you have a problem with that, you can go fsck yourself! ^_^
This could make for some really cool desktop backgrounds and themes.... ahh the possabilities...
who is making you use it?
Why not get some use outta a 3D card than gaming?
Different strokes for different folks...Diversity to an extent is good, this is a good kind.
Jeremy
It's from Jurassic Park. The girl sits down at a console with a fake 3d window manager and says "This is unix! I know this!"
Actually, it wasn't a fake 3D window manager, it was a real 3D file manager. It is actually named fsn and you can read about it and download it from here.
-jfedor
There are two fundamental problems with three-dimensional user interfaces:
1. We cannot see three-dimensionally. We see only a two-dimensional projection of the three dimensional world plus a little depth information. If you close one eye, you lose even that.
2. A monitor is two-dimensional. You can emulate the third dimension, but it really isn't there. Thus, on a monitor you don't have depth information either.
A three-dimensional interface might be worthwhile if we had big holographic displays in which we could enter and interact with, similar to a "holo-deck". But until we have that kind of technology, I believe 3D user interfaces are not going to make significant inroads, especially not if they take the approach of 3dwm, namely moving 2D windows around in a 3D world. 2D window managers let one manage windows quite efficiently today. There is not much to gain on that front.
bye
schani
Actually, indigo2s are getting pretty cheap these
days. Picked up a green R4400 250Mhz for about
$500.
I'm one of the core developers of 3Dwm, and I've watched with horrid fascination as the webserver was nearly toppled by the tremendous /.-onslaught just recently (have a look at the logs). Now, browsing the comments, I thought I should post and clear up some points.
First of all, yes, 3Dwm is misnamed. 3Dwm is NOT an X11 window manager, it is a user environment (the beginnings of the 3D-equivalent of X11). However, the name has stuck with us since our first appearance on Slashdot, so we don't want to change it.
Secondly, the main platform for 3Dwm is not normal desktop computers (though it does run on desktop systems), but Virtual Reality devices (like this one). In Virtual Reality, you have some amazing 3D interaction possibilities that few existing applications exploit.
As for VNC support, 3Dwm has VNC client (not server) functionality, just as one observant slashdotter pointed out. This allows us, in a network-transparent fashion that is in keeping with the distributed nature of the rest of 3Dwm, to display graphical desktops of any major windowing system (including Windows, X11, and MacOS) in 3D.
There's always skeptics who wonder what you would use a system like this for when 2D is perfectly fine. To that I can only answer that there are, in fact, areas where 3D could help a great deal, mainly in the fields of design, modelling, and information visualization. Why, take a look at this (and this and this) screenshot for a prototype 3D web browser.
Btw, today marks the one-year anniversary of our last slashdotting (I wrote up a short summary of the comments we got last time). Cool, eh? :)
IRIX has come with a *four*-dimensional window manager for years: 4dwm.
wog
It appears to be a theme for englightenment or some such according to google
Respond to s