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MozillaZine Editorial On Netscape Criticism

Posted by Hemos on from the stir-up-the-fire-pot dept.

RAD Kade 1 writes "An editorial on mozillazine.org is criticizing recent criticism against Netscape. Netscape stories will also no longer be posted on mozillazine.org, only Mozilla-related items."

17 of 107 comments (clear)

  1. MozillaZine is down - slashdotted to hell and back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3

    Our site is down, because our host's network has been overrun. Hopefully it will be back up later today. --chris http://www.mozillazine.org/

  2. He's got some great points. by Hrunting · · Score: 5

    The same people who are saying that Netscape 6 shouldn't be released because it isn't standards compliant are the same people who just recently said that Netscape should've released an interim browser between 4.7x and 6.x that at least implemented some standards.

    What's increasingly becoming important, though, is that the people doing this criticism are not programmers. They are web developers. mozillaZine's stance is largely taken because the people doing the majority of the flaming are not people actively involved in bettering the project. They're like Monday morning quarterbacks.

    FWIW, I've been using the Mozilla nightly builds for at least 6 months and they've been, for the most part, rock-solid. Yes, every once in a while something crops up stylesheets or the DOM (there's a particularly annoying bug right now where DOM form objects contain element entries from other DOM form objects), but for the most part, the code is solid, and some of the improvements (like incrememtal table display) are beautiful to use.

    1. Re:He's got some great points. by furiousgeorge · · Score: 4

      >What's increasingly becoming important, though, >is that the people doing this criticism are not
      >programmers. They are web developers.

      Unless i'm missing the point, the ARE the people that should be criticizing it.

      The project is at a stage that it shouldn't be judged on it's code beauty, design, bug burn rate, or social importance. It needs to be judged if it works or not. And i'd think web developers should be pretty high on the list.

      Thats like saying drivers aren't allowed to judge cars, only engineers.

      >mozillaZine's stance is largely taken because >the people doing the majority of the flaming are
      >not people actively involved in bettering the >
      >project.

      just because you don't like 'who' is flaming, doesn't make them 'wrong'. That a very old (and low in my book) political tactic. If you can't attact the words your opponent uses, attack the opponent.

      j

    2. Re:He's got some great points. by roca · · Score: 3

      No, Netscape 6 will benefit as soon as Netscape 6.1 comes out.

    3. Re:He's got some great points. by AugstWest · · Score: 5

      Well, you're ignoring the issue that Netscape is not just a browser, it is, as was stated at O'Reilly, a development platform.

      If my company could get back all of the countless hours wasted trying to find the workarounds necessary to get standardized functions to work in Netscape, we'd be way ahead of the game.

      As a developer working on a project, you *have* to be mindful of the end user. If we release a web-based software package, like millions of other companies around the world, we'd like to know that building our interfaces to standards isn't wasted time.

      We'd like to know that if we're doing something that sticks to the spec, Netscape isn't going to screw us over by deciding that they need to get the browser out the door before it is compliant.

      Stylesheet issues, JavaScript issues, session issues... These should be no-brainers, but instead we end up wasting valuable resources trying to figure out if we can work around some Netscape bug or if we'll have to completely throw out some bit of functionality.

      Stylesheet support is *essential*. You talk about it like it's not a big deal to you, but when more and more software packages are going to web-based paradigms, things like this become make-or-break issues. Not having full stylesheet support is just... ludicrous.

  3. They have a point by robinjo · · Score: 5

    I think they do have a point. Like several people pointed out on Mozillazine, Mr. Flanagan is complaining that the the most standard-compliant browser is not compliant enough. Someone even called this Bugzilla abuse as nobody gets to see Microsoft's uncensored bug database.

    Mozilla is a big project and it's pretty useless for outsiders to decide what should be fixed next. There's a lot of bugs to fix and features to create and only those programmers know what to do next.

    I also think that Mozillazine is right in distancing themselves from Netscape 6. Mozilla is another project and the decision makers are not same. Netscape 6 will be released sooner while Mozilla will continue to evolve until it's rock solid.

    While I'm writing this I'd like to bring up an alarming thing about Mozilla. After testing a lot of nighly builds, I have to say that the Linux builds are not nearly as far as Win32 builds. I'd love to see more contribution to the Linux development. If you don't have the skills and time to hack code, download nighly builds, report bugs and confirm old ones. It does help creating Mozilla the best browser there is. Complaining and jokes about Mozilla being dead won't.

    1. Re:They have a point by g_mcbay · · Score: 5
      There's a lot of bugs to fix and features to create and only those programmers know what to do next.

      I think a big part of the problem many people have with Mozilla is not simply that it is buggy or non-standards-compliant.... Most people's problem is that it is buggy and non-standards-compliant seemingly at the expense of all sorts of questionable features, like the skinning interface, the built in chat features, etc.

      I understand the arguments about how you can't really heard Open Source developers into doing what you want them to, and most would rather work on glam features rather than dull bugs...But that's an issue that needs to be addressed in some way if Mozilla ever wants to compete again with IE. And it deserves to be criticized until that issue is addressed.

  4. Meta-Criticism by Zach+Garner · · Score: 4

    An editorial on mozillazine.org is criticizing recent criticism against Netscape

    I hate meta-criticism. Dammit, That was meta-meta-criticism. AGHHH.

  5. Netscape deserves what they're getting by Tridus · · Score: 5

    Some of these bugs aren't minor, they're fairly serious "you can't use the DOM properly on a table" types of problems, and things which used to work in 4.x and don't anymore. In its current state, all Netscape 6 will do is create another browser to code for, with another set of quirks and bugs.

    There is some help if you don't use the DOM, since things like HTML 4 and CSS seem to be working pretty well.

    But I guess the problem is that the Netscape people want to release no matter what, and you almost have to beat on them with a book to get them to include fixes. Anybody remember a few weeks ago when we had the bug that was causing large grey lines in everything? They had to be browbeaten to include a fix for that.

    That reminds me of Microsoft, who suffers severe criticism for doing it. So why should Netscape get special treatment?

    --
    -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
  6. Actually... by Fnkmaster · · Score: 3

    If you read a little deeper you'll see that he replies to a reply to his posting. He plans on posting "news" on Netscape, but not "reviews, criticism" and other info (sorry, I'm not digging up the link or quoting it verbatim for you). Personally, I imagine he's just frustrated from the flamage coming from both directions (pro- and anti- NS) and from those inside and outside the Mozilla community and is trying to distance what he puts his effort into, the Open Source project Mozilla, from the corporate entity Netscape.

  7. That's just not true. by delay · · Score: 3

    I think that delaying Netscape a week or two to fix some bugs is really important. The delay would be a much lower price then bad press. The Guys who just say "Hey, why care about Netscape, we have Mozilla", just aren't right: Microsoft will start bitching and say: "Look at Netscape 6: It was released with a lot of known bugs, and that's the way it is with all Open-Source Software!". Managers will believe that, they don't know the difference between Netscape and Mozilla. And the whole community pays the price.

    --
    What do you do when you see an endangered animal eating an endangered plant?
  8. Shortcuts by The+Pim · · Score: 3
    Software companies have always taken shortcuts. One of the important engineering lessons of free software is that fewer shortcuts are taken when developers are in charge and the development (and release) process is open. This is a key to the quality of much free software. Jamie Zawinski, even after leaving Mozilla, has acknowledged that "Netscape made better decisions as a result" of freeing the code.

    But it's a tough pill for a traditional software organizaton to swallow. The Netscape PDT probably understands the pressure from marketing and management to get the product out, better than they understand the pressure from programmers to get the product right. They are comfortable letting another little bug slip through (it can be patched later, right?), but the deadline is a big bad monster that cannot be allowed any slack.

    I think we need to make them uncomfortable. We need to make the PDT realize that technical issues--especially standards compliance--are not pawns. Mozilla and Netscape will be the better for it.

    --

    The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
  9. Criticizing criticism of criticism... by sulli · · Score: 3

    No, they're just learning from Slashdot!

    --

    sulli
    RTFJ.
  10. that petition! by Pink+Daisy · · Score: 3
    I was going to sign, but decided not to. Netscape 6 IS better... sure there are a few bugs, but I can see two very good reasons for releasing it as soon as possible.

    First, marketing. Every day they have that lousy 4.x browser, they suffer. Lots of people will upgrade to the latest released browser, but not nightly builds of Mozilla. Give them something that works, even if not perfectly, to build the brand instead of destroying it.

    Second, these aren't showstopper bugs; it isn't worth delaying Netscape another year for all the minor bugs that have been discovered. It hurts me to say this, but that's life with web browsers. What is worth doing is releasing bugfixes after the product is out. Kind of like Microsoft does for Internet Explorer.

    Isn't the credo for both dot com's and open source projects, "release early, release often"? Personally, I think they should have released as soon as it was better than Netscape 4.

    --

    If you are modding me down because you disagree with me, use the "Flamebait" category, not the "Troll" one.
  11. Netscape/AOL as bad as Microsoft by Cap'n+enigma · · Score: 4

    Check out this comment from LinuxToday.
    Evidently Netscape 6 comes with a utility that reports every file downloaded off the internet back to Netscape.

    <br>http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2 000-11-07-007-04-OP-CY-SW-0000

  12. Well, I know what the problem is by potcrackpot · · Score: 4
    The problem with Netscape is that people are ashamed of using it, in contrast to those using Internet Explorer. When I'm in my local internet cafe, you can always identify those that are using it by their vocal cries of IEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! (as Internet Explorer crashes and reboots the PC).

    All Netscape needs is a proper advertising strategy so that everyone can be proud of using it. If version 6.0 goes ahead as planned, then they will be taking a step in the right direction.

  13. Netscape, out of the loop? by TheGHz · · Score: 3
    While I won't pretend to know Netscape as well as I should to produce an accurate reply, let me pitch in my two cents anyway.

    If Netscape releases a browser that has major design flaws in relation to what it supports and how well it supports it then they might as well leave the release be.

    For years now, web developers has been forced to produce sites that supports two or more flavors of browsers in order to target the majority of the likely users of their sites.

    For e-commerce sites this is not really a choice. You can't say "Let's just support one browser because that's easiest", when that effectively blocks out a huge chunk of your potential customer base.

    Neither is it very likely that you can opt to support full DHTML support in two or more platforms simply because you need to write each page specifically for each browser.

    The third option is to go for the least common denominator and that is forgetting about all those cool new ways of doing things simply because of the pain in the ass it is to write the code two or three times.

    The most likely outcome if Netscape releases a sub-standard browser is that quite a few sites will stop paying the cost to support two browsers and go for one. If Netscape hopes the sites will go for Netscape then I think they will be hugely disappointed.

    IE has been out there, is working (well enough, bugs yes, but generally it works), and does not appear to be disappearing anytime soon.

    I think there comes a time when enough is enough. If Netscape can't see that that time is about to be passed in the near future then I'm not too sorry if their browser simply dies.

    If they release a kick-ass browser that is stable, supports the necessary standards (again, well enough), then it's a welcome addition.

    If however we need to make Pre-NS6 pages, IE pages, and Post-NS6 pages, then I'm afraid that we're flogging a loosing horse.

    <flame>For years now, Microsoft has been criticized for releasing software with huge amounts of bugs into the public.

    I guess this makes Netscape a Microsoft wannabe </flame>