Slashdot Mirror
COMDEX and Linux Handhelds
code_slayer sent us a cool review of linux handhelds at COMDEX. You can see
Qt Embedded (which has been released under the GPL)
as well as MicroWindows, and a bunch of prototype boards. I'm still waiting for the 802.11 wireless linux handheld capable of displaying remote X applications, but it looks like we're getting closer.
Oh man, I've waited years to finally be an authority on a Slashdot article... wait a sec, let me bask in the glory..... Ok, I'm over it.
Here are some URLS for those who want to know more about Microwindows and the stuff running specifically on the Ipaq:
www.microwindows.org (Microwindows source and home page)
embedded.censoft.com (Century software home page)
Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
Isn't it the software and hardware features that matter rather than the OS? Palm OS has the most applications. Except for l33t-ness, why would anyone switch from a Palm handheld to a Linux one?
I realize these questions are annoying, but there had better be a good answer if you ever expect Linux to win in the market.
The people working on Linux for handhelds (at least the people at handhelds.org anyway) are NOT interested in reproducing your Linux desktop that is running on your AMD 1.4Ghz PC with the 64MB AGP video card. They are interested in making the Linux kernel work on handheld computers so that lots of other really smart people can come up with a really nice UI schema that will run on top of it. Read the list archives a bit to realize that these people *really get it.*
Lots of people are going to be talking about "the huge Linux distro" installed on their handheld computer, thinking about their home PC. Again, that's not the way it works. The Linux distro build by the handhelds.org people has the kernel, X11, some nice utilities, and fits into about 8MB. (Yes, that's the TCP/IP stack, fbdev X11, glibc, and most of the other usual suspects.) The point is to make a working operating *environment*, not a fancy e-based desktop. They know that that's not appropriate for the handheld form factor.
Like the article says, the point is *not* Linux-centric technofetishism. The point is to literally "open up" the capabilities of the devices to make them more accessible to the people who use them. I own a Palm IIIxe and I love it. I also am having a very hard time wrapping my head around the Palm API and trying to find decent tools to program it under Linux. If I have Linux running on my iPAQ, using Qt either under X11 or with Qt/Embedded, then I don't need to learn a new paradigm and can start programming my iPAQ right away. Of course, that doesn't mean I'll understand how to program for this sort of UI, but that at least will be my fault if I screw it up. The fact that now I *can* easily screw it up on my own is the important part.
I think what everyone's assuming is that the people who are involved in these projects are under the same mistaken assumption that Microsoft has been for so many years with WinCE that the whole point is to reproduce the desktop on a really tiny computer. BUT THEY'RE NOT! Everyone involved really understands that that's a BAD IDEA.
The reason, IMHO, that this stereotype keeps propagating is that right now, just getting Linux to boot on any of the handheld devices commonly available in the market is such an accomplishment that nobody's really been able to put a whole lot of effort into coming up with a good UI for the things now that we can actually use them. Qt/Embedded is a GREAT BIG step in that direction, and hopefully will make people start realizing that this is actually REALLY COOL STUFF and not just done for the sake of doing it.
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!
I love my Palm. I also think that USR, 3COM, and now Palm have done *very* little to advance it from the Pilot1000.
:) :) :)
- There were 8mb hacks YEARS ago. Yet Palm still continues to make products out of various RAM-limited configurations, and using more than 8mb on a palm requires a MAJOR HACK (tm)
- The screen res is limited, and can't be easily changed so that existing apps can use expanded screen real estate. So, palm is going to have big trouble moving to a new screen size, and that will break compatibility with all of the current palms.
- 8-bit color isn't enough color
- why has it taken so long for a Color palm V? I contend it's because Palm has to space out their new products to create the perception of a product roadmap since they're now so limited by the capabilities of their current platform.
- Palm has a great form factor, but as far as CPU and storage goes, it's far too feeble. Do you think voice recognition is going to work on a 20mhz cpu and fit in a few mb of ram?
OTOH, If I imagine a linux-based PDA, I can imagine that I will never have to worry about my vendor stopping support for old hardware, and I can easily migrate to the next generation platform without losing my apps or my data
and best of all, imagine having gcc on your PDA, and recompiling your own apps!
That's never gonna happen on a Palm or Wince.
Heh, I think the handhelds.org people must have had something to do with the placement of the "Windows Powered" logo on the iPaq. It conviently hides under any expansion pack, or the basic style sleeve that came with the iPaq so once Linux is running, people can't easially find the Windows logo.
Now to just get a tiny Tux sticker for the front of mine and I'll be set.
David E. Weekly
David E. Weekly
Code / Think / Teach / Learn
h4x0r for
"1337" upside down on a calculator is obviously "LEE!", a reference to Lee Majors, the Six Million Dollar Man. Obviously the poster thinks that the device has a lot of power, although it expresses that power in slow motion.
From the same site, this piece suggests that ex-GRiD-exec-turned-Gartner-analyst Ken Dulaney thinks Handspring may be considering a switch from palm OS to Linux.
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Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
The Linux Community is too hyped on porting to new hardware, and too lax on simplification, and applications.
People use computers to do things, not just as fetish accessories. At least, most people do.
What applications will people run on a Linux handheld? Is someone working on a Linux Host and Handheld system similar to M$ Outlook and similar tools that would allow the primary users of handhelds (people trying to organize their lives) to actually organize contacts, communications, and calendar entries in a unified manner? The Qt/Embedded looked like it had at least the remote half of that pairing...
The Qt/Embedded interface photo looks nice - it even looks simple enough (something a lot of people don't feel about Linux on the desktop), though I don't yet know how complex it is to install (many still have difficulty installing Linux on their desktops - maybe they are idiots, or maybe just busy with the rest of their job... but a lot of these folks buy computers and if Linux wants to rule, the need to be taken into account...)
I love Linux, I love *nix in general, but the dearth of applications and difficulty of installation and maintenance makes it such that I can not use it in my organization, adn thus use it for work without at least as much hassle as using Windows. There is too much emphasis on "gee whiz" and not enough on real work (with the exception of real engineering work, but unfortunately business people, not engineers, control the market - even the computer market)...
I hope that these systems work as well as they look in the pictures, and maybe this will start Linux down the road of acceptance on the Business desktop if developers focus on the host-side applications as well...
o/~ we are pissed, we are pissed, we have to resist... o/~ - ec8or
http://www.trolltech.com/ pro ducts/qt/embedded/qpe.html
l tech.com/qt/embedded/palmtop/ soon!
Also, floppy-disk and cassiopia demos. And source!
A mirror will be at http://www.flyingbuttmonkeys.com/mirrors/ftp.trol
-M
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Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Ah, but not much else. X + GTK or whatever is fat. Embedded QT is as big as the X server alone on the handhelds.org stuff (which I'm currently running).
l tech.com/qt/embedded/palmtop/
If you want to try the QT stuff, it's home page, with downloads is here:
http://www.trolltech.com/pro ducts/qt/embedded/qpe.html
Mirror is here:
http://www.flyingbuttmonkeys.com/mirrors/ftp.trol
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Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Now, X on something like a palm pilot or visor is just a waste of space. But X on one of these wireless webpads that everyone likes to demo but not sell...that's the best thing they can do.
The whole point of one of these webpads is that it's just an extension of the desktop. It's not like my visor, where I keep track of phone numbers, etc. It's soposed to be for when I want to read slashdot on the throne.
What better way to have it an extention of my desktop, then to run all my desktop aps nativly. This is one of the underrated uses of X. THe fact that it can display remotely. The webpad doesn't need any real power, just enough to run the display. My desktop is taking all the cpu load runing the ap.
When this comes, I'll spend money on one. I'd love to be able to do stuff like control xmms form anywhere, read salshdot on the can, and go to landolakes.com in the kitchen so I know how to make a turkey. That's what these things are soposed to be able to let me do. What better way then to do it with X? After all, that's what it's for.
And this just isn't a linux pipedream either. MacOS X having an X server, will be able to do the same thing. And also if I'm not mistaken, doesn't Corel, or one of it's partners ship a product that lets Windows display it's aps remotely to an X server?
Why do we care what OS is on our handhelds?
Most of the world doesn't. They also don't care what OS their desktop runs. They just want to use MS Word and see all the cool animations on web pages. In the PDA world, they want to have their schedules, todos, and contacts in a portable format. And maybe play a few games and reference a document or web page.
Isn't it the software and hardware features that matter rather than the OS? Palm OS has the most applications. Except for l33t-ness, why would anyone switch from a Palm handheld to a Linux one?
If Linux proves itself capable of providing a more powerful/capable/efficient/usable PDA, then people might care. Until then, I'm all for linux geeks experimenting with the idea, but I'll continue to use my Newton MessagePad 2100 until something better comes along (it hasn't yet).
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso
I'm not a UI theorist, but from personal experience,
a 'button' based UI is more efficiently navigated
than a nested menu on pen-based, small screened hardware.
On my Visor, the 'hot zone' for a launcher is a ~.5 x ~.75 inch box,
whereas on a winCE device, it's at least two ~.25x1.5 inch boxes.
I find the 'square' targets to be easier to hit when I'm in a hurry.
I think that on a small device, particularly one that is designed
for instant access to data, the added speed of easier to hit
targets outweighs the added capacity of nested menus.
Like I said, I'm not a UI theorist, so my conclusions may be completely off-base, but
I personally find the Palm icon view to be much quicker.
(Disclaimer: I've owned both platforms.)
--K
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Most of the apps on your desktop would be useless on your palm-top, especially those that are currently available. Sure, when you get a 640x480 palmtop it might approach usable, but you still have the problem of input.
I suppose it'd this kind of thirst which WinCE aims to quench...
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
You can do this already....Take a look at the work being done at www.handhelds.org. We're doing that at work now.
These Linux PDA folk should take a lesson from the Palm marketers, and supply soft-pornographic pictures of nearly naked women holding the Linux PDA in a strategic spot.
Come on, everyone remembers the naked ballerina holding her Palm, right, the Simply Palm ad?
So why couldn't they round up a few booth babes or Lara Croft wannabees to model these? Who cares how well it works, as long as a sexy babe holds it up, I'll buy.
The article mentions the people at linux handhelds have gotten wireless up (I assume on the iPAQ)
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
I'm seeing vertical applications being developed for or ported to handhelds that are too big and fat for the Palm but that run acceptably on Pocket PC. Linux could be a worthy competitor in that space.
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Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
There's more info on Microwindows & ViewML here, including the obligatory /. screens hot .
Comdex is full of posers...Burn Baby, burn. Had to roll up my pant legs, but did manage to find a couple of interesting areas, specifically the Linux Handheld devices which will, hopefully, kill the Pocket PC. Also of interest and related to the above was an application company, SolidStreaming.com, which was doing a variety of demos of live wireless streaming of audio and video, ported to the PocketLinux, the Palm, the Symbian and the PPC platforms - on a bunch of different hardware devices. Very cool, real Dick Tracy kind of stuff. They have a ways to go, but I got the feeling that they know what they are doing, I saw for myself. Just my 2 cents...thought this was interesting as Gates made his keynote, saying that - once again, MS owns or will own this wireless rich media content delivery space. Think again, Bill..
"Hmm.... ok, I can delete this directory and all subdirs, here we go, write rm -rf *."
*scribble scribble*
Palmtop displays: rm -rf /*
"No, no, no-------!!!!"
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Now I can fit a 1024 node Beowulf cluster in the linen closet.
You would think they could have stickered over the "Powered by Windows CE" logo for the screenshot.
For those interested, we have TinyGL working for Microwindows (AND it even looks decent!). For anyone interested, check out the mailing list (http://embedded.century.com). It's a little too new to be part of the current distribution.
I don't see why there's so much enthusiasm for Linux on a palmtop. It seems most of the Linux zealots like to do their work from a CLI. I don't think that will translate well to a Palm pilot. I don't feel like typing in shell commands with Graffiti.
The short answer is, yes. On the next release of the Century Software Ipaq distro (embedded.censoft.com), we will have IRChat, which allows two Ipaqs to chat and transfer files via the IR (thats being shown at Comdex right now).
And of course, since IRDA is standards based, it follows that the Ipaq will talk to all IRDA capable machines (printers, Palms, etc, etc...).
PS: Many kudos to the good folks at www.handhelds.org for their fine work on the IRDA stuff. Give yourselves a pat on the back, eh?
Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
>Palm had the advantage of being first to market,
The Newton was 1st to market.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Linux on a handheld, now you can not do all the things you couldn't do it home on the road!
Actually, I think it just needs to be easy to code for. The OS does not need to be open source.
Take the PalmOS. While not open source, the programmers I've talked to have said that it is much easier to code for the Palm platform than it is for the WinCE/PPC platform. Palm also makes it easy to become a developer for their platform, IIRC.
Open source may be important, but ease of development (of new software) is more important for platforms.