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Huge New Galaxy Cluster Found
Anonymous Squonk writes: "The new Subaru telescope on Mauna Kea, the world's largest telescope, is starting to produce big results. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin reports that the latest find is a previously unknown cluster of over 1,000 galaxies over five billion light years away."
So I took a tour of the telescopes on Mauna Kea this past summer and I just wanted to clarify a few things (by the bye, if you're ever on the Big Island, I highly recommend the tour (it's even free on Thurs - Mon)).
a) the Subaru telescope is named after a constellation, not the car company.
b) it is the largest single mirror telescope in the world; however, the two Keck telescopes that are right next to it are larger (they're made up of 36 small hexagonal mirrors) (there may be larger telescopes of this kind elsewhere).
dmd
If we aren't so important, then how come just about every galaxy is rushing away from from ours? (with about three exceptions). We must have done something to make them flee :-)
I think it could be argued that understanding the infinite scale of the universe can help us see that life at any level is something precious, rare, and valuable - something that shouldn't be squandered. And that perhaps if we find a little bit of humility in looking at something so vast, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Heh. These science guys can count stars up to a
billion... where are they when we wanna count a
few ballots?
my $0.02
mondongo
This makes me appreciate NASA a whole heck of a lot more. All NASA material is public domain. Subaru may take pretty pictures, but what's the point if I can't take full advantage of them?
Any sufficiently advanced civilization is indistinguishable from Gods.
"Subaru" is the Japanese name of the constellation we call the Pleadies. The name is simply from the constellation, and has nothing to do with the car.
In order to understand this, you have to understand that space-time itself can bend, expand and contract, and that this is the most important feature of the expanding universe -- not the matter that sits inside the universe. The big bang was not an explosion which happened at a single point and then the material radiated outwards in a shell like a conventional explosion taking place. The big bang actually happened at every point in space. The big bang happened where you are sitting now.
Galaxies are actually not moving very fast, even though we may be seeing the distance between us and them get greater and we may see a large redshift from them as they get farther away from us. What is changing is space-time in between us and them which is expanding and placing them farther away from us. It is not the galaxies which are moving, it is space time that is warping (and there is no spoon).
Another aspect of this is that space-time can be much, much larger than the 10-20 billion light years which would be possible if it were a conventional explosion. If the universe exploded from a point on a flat background space-time (the wrong picture), then material would have been limited to the speed of light and the radius of the universe would be fixed to be less than a number light years equal to the age of the universe. However, if the big bang happened everywhere there is no limit to the size of the universe. It could be 10,20,100,1000, etc billion light years or even infinite in size.
Some of this may be a bit hard to swallow -- I find the part about the universe coming from a point-size singularity particularly hard to swallow -- but other aspects of the theory are well tested. We know that the theory of the big bang is correct back to the time when the universe was expanding fairly rapidly and was around 3000 degrees kelvin. We can actually see the light from that time as the cosmic microwave background radation (CMBR). Observations of the CMBR along with stellar nucleosynthesis and other observations have established the post-3000K big bang theory very well.
Hope that helps a bit...
If by 'tangible benefit' you mean cash, then no, there is no cash in this line of work. Probably various theories (such as Hubble's) get more proof with each discovery of this type. We learn more about the structure of the cosmos, we learn more about the fate of our own Sun. Maybe astrophysics can be beneficial in future explorations - we learn more about space and time. The major difference between humans and other creatures on this planet is our curiosity and inability to be satisfied with only what we know now. A tangible benefit is not the only benefit, there is also intangible benefit and it may not be obvious. Maybe learning more about the space around us we'll appreciate better the place where we live now.
You can't handle the truth.
That's a good question that even veteran cosmologists get it wrong (I recalled Alan Sandage I think, this year's Cosmology Prize winner making the same mistake!)
Here is a short primer (without much Jargon I hope) :
The BB DOES not happen at a single point necessarily, contrary to popular belief (and the blasted "primeval atom" picture which is totally wrong). Whether or not it happened at a single point depends on the "curvature" of the Universe.
Currently, the latest results (Cosmic Microwave Background) points to a "flat" Universe, which means that the curvature is zero (a balloon has positive curvature, a table has no curvature). Now , a balloon has a "bounded" surface area : i.e. it is finite. But the flat space we lived in is infinite. Thus, an infinite space, extrapolating backwards the finite age of the Universe, does not have a "single point" start.
The point of all that is to tell you that to impress you that when we look "deep", we are both looking "far" and "into the past". The idea is that "curvature" warps space-time into a continuum, so "far" and "into the past" is not separable : 6 billion light years away is not the "distance light will travel in 6 billion light years _given_ the Universe is static and not expanding." Distance has no meaning without the time component (I know it sounds woozy, and I can't visualize it either : it's all in the equations and I just work at them.)
The 6 billions LY quote in the article is probably the "luminosity distance". Astronomers use the term "luminosity distance", a _defined_ concept with the curvature of the universe embedded in. So
if new data shows a different curvature, the 6 billion LY will have to be revised.
To blow up your brain a little, think about this :
What is the furthest thing you can see?
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
It is a sad state of affairs to see posts like these from reasonably well educated people.
How the hell does GR and QM filtered into Moral Relativism?! Moral Relativism is a creation of Humainities with a political agenda (yeah, blame the progressives!). Science makes no judgements on Morals or Ethics, she just seeks the truth.
Your ignorance towards what Science is has led you to fear it, and then blame it for the ills of the world. It's very sad. Maybe you should have taken a Physical Sciences degree in College. Then perhaps you will see Science for what she is : a wonderful adventure where Nature is the playground, and the finding the Truth is the game.
Sagan once said,"I prefer the ugly truth then comforting fantasy."
I guess you prefer the other one.
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
In a related story, the cluster has been named the "Outback cluster." the Corporate sponsorship people have struck again......
--
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Suburu is the Japanese word for the constellation Pleiades. It looks like that six-star design you see on their cars. The constellation is prominant in the winter sky. It appears as a fuzzball to the right of Orions shoulder. When you look closely you see the six stars that appear like a little dipper, plus a bunch of faint ones surounding them. Alsmost every ancient culture has a story about the Suburu constellation. I don't know the Japanese story, but the Greek one is they are the daughters of the Titan Atlas.
>I would lay the blame of much of the problems we >have in society today at the doors of science. >Einsteins Relativity theory and the >uncertainties of Quantum Mechanics have filtered >down into the Moral Relativism and uncertainty >we see around us today
Please site one example of quantum mechanics filtering down into 'moral relativism'. Please cite sources.
Where are we - back in the 16th century - going to lock Galileo in his house because suggesting that the earth went around the sun? It WAS a scary thought. But it was true. The former outweighs the latter in my book EVERYTIME.
Sorry - i don't feel ANY obligations to shelter you from reality if it shatters your illusions, or proves that a belief or truth that you have held to be wrong. Being able to cope with changes like that is what makes a person emotionally strong.
>You cannot monkey about with a society's
>certaintys and worldview without expecting
>consequences. We have seen a lot of that this >century.
what 'certainties'? If something is wrong it's wrong. FACT. The earth is not flat. The sun does not go around the world. We are decended from single celled protazoa. None of these facts make me feel any less at all. That is the world - and I LOVE learning more about it. I can't think of a single scientific discovery that has EVER made me feel less. On the contrary, i find them empowering and a statement to the genuis that is 'man'.
>t that they censor themselves.
No, you want a censor. You want the status quo. Science isn't about that. If you want consistent, dogmatic teachings there are a multititude of applicable religions, cults, socieites, or political parties (grin) suited to you.
Going out at night and staring at the stars doesn't make me want to weep because I'm so 'insignificant'. My jaw hangs open in wonder because the universe is such an incredible place to be - and i'm just happy to be here.
This is left as an exercise to the reader.
j
The scientists are preparing us for the day that they announce (for they have known for 50 years) that not only are there aliens amongst us, but they already own all the human-habitable real-estate in the galaxy. If we think we're special, that could cause a collosal mindquake. If we have accepted our lowly place in the universe, it will just be another "whatever".
Interestingly, the aliens have also patented, trademarked and coprighted all future inventions. You are no longer allowed to think of new things. Please turn the television on.
Mod this nonsense down.
>But I don't think they will any time soon, as >they seem to labour under the illusion that
>science is about demeaning our cultures status,
>not enhancing it, and have done so for the last >500 years
Oh bullshit. I hope that i'm not in the minority when i feel that the true aim of science is TRUTH.... irregardless of if it gives you a warm fuzzy, or makes you feel cosmically insignificant.
Reality is NOT a zero sum game. The 'gain' of a monkey speaking sign language is not a 'loss' for homo sapiens. If your neighbor gets a better car than you, does that mean you are somehow 'less'? If you answered yes to that, get professional counselling.
>just how important we are
Get over yourself. The purpose of the universe isn't to make you feel important.
You want science to make you feel important? I have a few papal indulgences to sell you too...