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Huge New Galaxy Cluster Found
Anonymous Squonk writes: "The new Subaru telescope on Mauna Kea, the world's largest telescope, is starting to produce big results. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin reports that the latest find is a previously unknown cluster of over 1,000 galaxies over five billion light years away."
(And I wonder if it is formal attire?)
Maybe you should spend more time looking at submicroscopic particles, bacteria, and the like. We are impossibly huge and important compared to the lowly gluon or protozoa, maybe that will make you feel all special and important. Like it's some sort of accomplishment to be larger than a bactera, or smaller than the Universe.
I read the internet for the articles.
Very well said.
We may be meaningless and insignficant to the universe (assuming said universe has a capacity for thought or concern > 0, which is a pretty wild, perhaps even absurd, assumption in and of itself) but we matter to one another and to ourselves, therefor we matter.
As the dominant species on this planet the world is exactly what we make of it. That makes us pretty significant in the local realm -- demanding anything more of the rest of the universe is nothing more than petty, even childish, emotional hubris and greed.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
If all the votes for a state are pooled, evenly mixed, then a statistically significant number are randomly chosen to predict the winner, it will be FAR more accurate than the current system of hand recounts with varying criteria used by different counties or counters.
Exit polling is based on bad data, and is not a random sample. Using a random sample of the actual vote data, is guaranteed to converge to the correct answer.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
You were close, I guess. Actually it's the Seven Sisters and it isn't a constellation but an open cluster of stars in the constellation of Taurus.
The western name is The Pleides.
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
>If the universe is curved, how do we know we are
>not looking at our own galaxy, from a long ago
>time?
there are a # of experiements being performed now looking at this thesis.
(btw - if the distance for a light round trip is > speed of light * age of universe we wouldn't see ourselves anyway).
>Presentation is the key.
Are you an adult? Presentation-schezentation. Just the *facts* ma'am.
If i gave you a nice big shit sandwich, on a toasty whole wheat bun with cheeze and some nice garnishes i wouldn't expect you to gulp it down.
You don't like the message - don't attack the messenger, no matter how it's presented. In the same vein, don't just swallow any message if it IS presented well.
Science isn't about making you feel good. It may, it may not. Cope with that (or bury your head in the sand). If you want something guaranteed to make you feel nice, give your mom a call.
>When they discover something new, they always
>get some talking head to say 'It just shows how
>insignificant we are'
When i hear somebody telling me how important i am, i usually check to make sure my wallet is still there. Don't confuse somebody kissing your ass with the message. THAT is why civilization is in a decline (in my opinion). Too many people have surrendered their rational thought, instead happy to be placated with platitudes of how 'important' they are.
j
There are upwards of 500 stars in the Pleiades cluster. It just so happens that there are only a handful (six or seven, as you've noted) that are reasonably visible to the naked eye.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
The funniest thing is, the light that we are seeing is SO old that those galaxies may not exist anymore...
There's some info on the software that makes the SUBARU Telescope run at http://www.corba.org/industries/research/subaru.ht ml, with a focus on how it uses CORBA to share distrbuted data.
All I know about mirrors I learned from my countless mirror lab tours ;)
Doug
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
I believe you meant 3.something meter radius... there are plenty of telescopes larger than 4 meter diameter meters now... including the one shown in the NOVA the previous poster mentioned: the MMT on top of Mt. Hopkins
(the 6.something meter mirror was cast at the Mirror Lab here at UA!)
Doug
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
It's called sampling... you don't care when you're getting a count of stars in a galaxy when you're off by a few hundred million... it's the order of magnitude that counts...
when you're counting ballots, a statistical description is unacceptable... note the mis-call of florida by the network's exit polling...
Doug
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
They are reported to be 5 billion light-years away. In 5 billion years, it is conceivable that many of them may have collapsed or something similar.
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CitizenC
My name is not 'nospam,' but 'citizenc'.
Well, sort of. They're known as the Seven Sisters, yes, but most people can only see six. The reason for this is that (according to Greek legend) Orion stole one of them. Taurus the Bull was placed between Orion and the Pleiades to protect them from Orion. That's why there're only six, and that's why they sit on Taurus' shoulder.
... but the seventh star is extremely hard to see. I once heard a story that in Arabia, they used to use the Pleiades to select their scouts. If a man could describe the position of all 7 stars, then he had eye sight good enough to be a scout.
-Ted
What "moral relativism"? And "failed religion"? The sooner these damn cults and superstitions die, the better off we will all be.
Scientists are careful and responsible when they talk about the truth and do everything they can to debunk superstition and irrational power-hungry cults. Yes, in the universe humans are insignificant. So? In our world, we are not; we have a responsibililty to humanity, to each other, to our ethics.Unlimited growth == Cancer.
Where groups of galaxies occure, it is indeed very common for the larger ones to absorb the smaller ones when they venture too close. Our own Milky Way galaxy is known to have canniblized a number of small irregular galaxies, as evidenced by the common orbits of a few scattered stars outside the plane of the galaxy. The same effect can be better observed (and has been) in other galaxies when it occurs.
The press release makes no mention of the number of galaxies in the cluster that was detected. A footnote mentioned that a cluster of galaxies was composed of at least 50 galaxies, but that was the only number of galaxies mentioned. The press release did state that some 30,000 objects were captured in the photograph, but made no mention of what those objects were. The article on StartBulletin.com is the only place that 1000 Galaxies was mentioned.
Then the astrophysicists should not be allowed to count ballots or the count will be off by a few hundred million.
Wait a moment, it is off by a few hundred million!
OOPS!
You can't handle the truth.
Then blame the talking head, not the scientist. In any case, you must not spend very much time talking to scientists if that's your view, because the ones I talk to (i.e. my coworkers, as I myself am a scientist) are constantly amazed by humanity. That includes physicists who are boggled at the combination of cosmic factors that have to be just the way they are in order for life to exist at all, chemists who are amazed at the complexity and beauty of the way that the molecules that make up our body interact, and biologists who are astounded by the interactions of cells that make us functioning organisms. That doesn't even mention the cognitive scientists who are still baffled and enthralled at how our brains process information and engineers who are impressed by the efficiency of our bodies. Try actually talking to scientists before you make up your mind about what they think.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Actually, current cosmology believes the universe is approximately 15 billion years old, although you are correct that its supposed to have started at a single point. Yes, everything in the universe appears to be flying away from everything else, with exceptions for local mutual gravitational effects (on the scale of galaxy clusters). Objects which are extremely far from us (say 10 billion light years and up) seem to be moving at significant percentages of the speed of light away from us. And there appears to be a nice, linear relationship (Hubble's law) between the speed and the distance. If you want to read some basic stuff on it, a good site is http://www.hubbleconstant.com/
On a related topic, another response to your post mentioned the recent claim that the universe apears to be accelerating. So far, this claim is based only on studies of supernovae at the most extreme distances we can detect them. One of the assumptions the researchers made on that study is that the maximum brightness and the decay curves are the same for these distant supernovae as for the closer ones. I guess what I'm getting to is that the conclusion that the universe is accelerating in expansion is not entirely accepted as being fact yet. The results are good enough to lead to further research to confirm them, but it's been only about 2 years since publication.
"Bite me, it's fun!" - Crowe T. Robot
If the universe is curved, how do we know we are not looking at our own galaxy, from a long ago time?
Bork...
I suppose it could be both. According to the blurb from my car dealer, "Suburu" is Japanese for "The Five Brothers". Which is the name of the constellation on the hood (I forget the western name) and also of the five-company cartel that makes the car.
__________________
No, it was a super nova.
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Let me guess. They plan to use an Outback to get there.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
How many scientists do you know run around claiming how insignificant we are? I think you're missing the point. While humanity is important, it is even more important to see how we fit into the grand scheme of things. I don't think any scientists are trying to de-value humanity, rather I believe that we are putting our existance into the proper context.
If you get the idea that science is destroying human esteem, then perhaps you aren't taking the time to understand the science itself. Science isn't about ethics and having a purpose for things, it is only an exploration into our reality. So if one feels overwhelmed by the results, it is only a personal fear of being insignificant. If you look at most of the popular scientists of the last half century (Einstein, Sagan, Feynman) they all embrace the value of humanity, don't try to white-wash science as un-human - in the end science is only what you make of it.
UBU
It has the worlds largest single mirror, but the title of worlds largest optical scope goes to the twin Keck telescopes on Mauna Kea each of some 10 metres diametre. Subaru is 8.3 metres diametre.
The time for school is during a recession.
Personally, I don't have any problem accepting that, on a cosmic scale, all of humanity is microscopically insignificant. It doesn't bother me one bit. Now I'm the first to admit I have a little bit of a big ego, but I'm quite happy with the fact that if I spun in tomorrow, although my Dad would be distraught, approximately one billion Chinese couldn't give a damn.
I think this song is quite apt:
The Big Cigar Theory
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
What is the point of finding all of these galaxies? I mean, what do we gain from it? Do we derive any tangible benefit from this line of research?
Viewing galaxies so far from us means we are able to look back in time, theoretically to the point at the Universe's creation. Such research increases our understanding about the formation of the Universe, a question worthy of our attention as a civilization.
It's a great big universe and we're all really puny,
t ))
we're just tiny little specks about the size of Mickey Rooney
It's big and black and inky, and we are small and dinky
It's a big universe and we're not!
-Yakko's Universe
((FOR full lyrics visit: http://www.home.global.co.za/~eyal/docs/yakkos.tx
"One touch of Darwin makes the whole world kin." George Bernard Shaw
So I took a tour of the telescopes on Mauna Kea this past summer and I just wanted to clarify a few things (by the bye, if you're ever on the Big Island, I highly recommend the tour (it's even free on Thurs - Mon)).
a) the Subaru telescope is named after a constellation, not the car company.
b) it is the largest single mirror telescope in the world; however, the two Keck telescopes that are right next to it are larger (they're made up of 36 small hexagonal mirrors) (there may be larger telescopes of this kind elsewhere).
dmd
If we aren't so important, then how come just about every galaxy is rushing away from from ours? (with about three exceptions). We must have done something to make them flee :-)
I think it could be argued that understanding the infinite scale of the universe can help us see that life at any level is something precious, rare, and valuable - something that shouldn't be squandered. And that perhaps if we find a little bit of humility in looking at something so vast, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Heh. These science guys can count stars up to a
billion... where are they when we wanna count a
few ballots?
my $0.02
mondongo
This makes me appreciate NASA a whole heck of a lot more. All NASA material is public domain. Subaru may take pretty pictures, but what's the point if I can't take full advantage of them?
Any sufficiently advanced civilization is indistinguishable from Gods.
In order to understand this, you have to understand that space-time itself can bend, expand and contract, and that this is the most important feature of the expanding universe -- not the matter that sits inside the universe. The big bang was not an explosion which happened at a single point and then the material radiated outwards in a shell like a conventional explosion taking place. The big bang actually happened at every point in space. The big bang happened where you are sitting now.
Galaxies are actually not moving very fast, even though we may be seeing the distance between us and them get greater and we may see a large redshift from them as they get farther away from us. What is changing is space-time in between us and them which is expanding and placing them farther away from us. It is not the galaxies which are moving, it is space time that is warping (and there is no spoon).
Another aspect of this is that space-time can be much, much larger than the 10-20 billion light years which would be possible if it were a conventional explosion. If the universe exploded from a point on a flat background space-time (the wrong picture), then material would have been limited to the speed of light and the radius of the universe would be fixed to be less than a number light years equal to the age of the universe. However, if the big bang happened everywhere there is no limit to the size of the universe. It could be 10,20,100,1000, etc billion light years or even infinite in size.
Some of this may be a bit hard to swallow -- I find the part about the universe coming from a point-size singularity particularly hard to swallow -- but other aspects of the theory are well tested. We know that the theory of the big bang is correct back to the time when the universe was expanding fairly rapidly and was around 3000 degrees kelvin. We can actually see the light from that time as the cosmic microwave background radation (CMBR). Observations of the CMBR along with stellar nucleosynthesis and other observations have established the post-3000K big bang theory very well.
Hope that helps a bit...
If by 'tangible benefit' you mean cash, then no, there is no cash in this line of work. Probably various theories (such as Hubble's) get more proof with each discovery of this type. We learn more about the structure of the cosmos, we learn more about the fate of our own Sun. Maybe astrophysics can be beneficial in future explorations - we learn more about space and time. The major difference between humans and other creatures on this planet is our curiosity and inability to be satisfied with only what we know now. A tangible benefit is not the only benefit, there is also intangible benefit and it may not be obvious. Maybe learning more about the space around us we'll appreciate better the place where we live now.
You can't handle the truth.
That's a good question that even veteran cosmologists get it wrong (I recalled Alan Sandage I think, this year's Cosmology Prize winner making the same mistake!)
Here is a short primer (without much Jargon I hope) :
The BB DOES not happen at a single point necessarily, contrary to popular belief (and the blasted "primeval atom" picture which is totally wrong). Whether or not it happened at a single point depends on the "curvature" of the Universe.
Currently, the latest results (Cosmic Microwave Background) points to a "flat" Universe, which means that the curvature is zero (a balloon has positive curvature, a table has no curvature). Now , a balloon has a "bounded" surface area : i.e. it is finite. But the flat space we lived in is infinite. Thus, an infinite space, extrapolating backwards the finite age of the Universe, does not have a "single point" start.
The point of all that is to tell you that to impress you that when we look "deep", we are both looking "far" and "into the past". The idea is that "curvature" warps space-time into a continuum, so "far" and "into the past" is not separable : 6 billion light years away is not the "distance light will travel in 6 billion light years _given_ the Universe is static and not expanding." Distance has no meaning without the time component (I know it sounds woozy, and I can't visualize it either : it's all in the equations and I just work at them.)
The 6 billions LY quote in the article is probably the "luminosity distance". Astronomers use the term "luminosity distance", a _defined_ concept with the curvature of the universe embedded in. So
if new data shows a different curvature, the 6 billion LY will have to be revised.
To blow up your brain a little, think about this :
What is the furthest thing you can see?
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
It is a sad state of affairs to see posts like these from reasonably well educated people.
How the hell does GR and QM filtered into Moral Relativism?! Moral Relativism is a creation of Humainities with a political agenda (yeah, blame the progressives!). Science makes no judgements on Morals or Ethics, she just seeks the truth.
Your ignorance towards what Science is has led you to fear it, and then blame it for the ills of the world. It's very sad. Maybe you should have taken a Physical Sciences degree in College. Then perhaps you will see Science for what she is : a wonderful adventure where Nature is the playground, and the finding the Truth is the game.
Sagan once said,"I prefer the ugly truth then comforting fantasy."
I guess you prefer the other one.
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
In a related story, the cluster has been named the "Outback cluster." the Corporate sponsorship people have struck again......
--
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Suburu is the Japanese word for the constellation Pleiades. It looks like that six-star design you see on their cars. The constellation is prominant in the winter sky. It appears as a fuzzball to the right of Orions shoulder. When you look closely you see the six stars that appear like a little dipper, plus a bunch of faint ones surounding them. Alsmost every ancient culture has a story about the Suburu constellation. I don't know the Japanese story, but the Greek one is they are the daughters of the Titan Atlas.
>I would lay the blame of much of the problems we >have in society today at the doors of science. >Einsteins Relativity theory and the >uncertainties of Quantum Mechanics have filtered >down into the Moral Relativism and uncertainty >we see around us today
Please site one example of quantum mechanics filtering down into 'moral relativism'. Please cite sources.
Where are we - back in the 16th century - going to lock Galileo in his house because suggesting that the earth went around the sun? It WAS a scary thought. But it was true. The former outweighs the latter in my book EVERYTIME.
Sorry - i don't feel ANY obligations to shelter you from reality if it shatters your illusions, or proves that a belief or truth that you have held to be wrong. Being able to cope with changes like that is what makes a person emotionally strong.
>You cannot monkey about with a society's
>certaintys and worldview without expecting
>consequences. We have seen a lot of that this >century.
what 'certainties'? If something is wrong it's wrong. FACT. The earth is not flat. The sun does not go around the world. We are decended from single celled protazoa. None of these facts make me feel any less at all. That is the world - and I LOVE learning more about it. I can't think of a single scientific discovery that has EVER made me feel less. On the contrary, i find them empowering and a statement to the genuis that is 'man'.
>t that they censor themselves.
No, you want a censor. You want the status quo. Science isn't about that. If you want consistent, dogmatic teachings there are a multititude of applicable religions, cults, socieites, or political parties (grin) suited to you.
Going out at night and staring at the stars doesn't make me want to weep because I'm so 'insignificant'. My jaw hangs open in wonder because the universe is such an incredible place to be - and i'm just happy to be here.
This is left as an exercise to the reader.
j
The scientists are preparing us for the day that they announce (for they have known for 50 years) that not only are there aliens amongst us, but they already own all the human-habitable real-estate in the galaxy. If we think we're special, that could cause a collosal mindquake. If we have accepted our lowly place in the universe, it will just be another "whatever".
Interestingly, the aliens have also patented, trademarked and coprighted all future inventions. You are no longer allowed to think of new things. Please turn the television on.
Mod this nonsense down.
>But I don't think they will any time soon, as >they seem to labour under the illusion that
>science is about demeaning our cultures status,
>not enhancing it, and have done so for the last >500 years
Oh bullshit. I hope that i'm not in the minority when i feel that the true aim of science is TRUTH.... irregardless of if it gives you a warm fuzzy, or makes you feel cosmically insignificant.
Reality is NOT a zero sum game. The 'gain' of a monkey speaking sign language is not a 'loss' for homo sapiens. If your neighbor gets a better car than you, does that mean you are somehow 'less'? If you answered yes to that, get professional counselling.
>just how important we are
Get over yourself. The purpose of the universe isn't to make you feel important.
You want science to make you feel important? I have a few papal indulgences to sell you too...