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Is The Internet Destroying Spanish?

Ant gestures ambiguously at this ZDNet Latin America story which reports the unhappiness of some academics with the increasing use of English or English-influenced words in the tech world, which they say is hurting the education of Spanish speakers. A short excerpt: "Some say the jargon of technology is destroying Spanish, and some are worried, including Odon Betanzos, president of the North American Academy of the Spanish Language. Betanzos recently sent an open letter to the other 22 academies worldwide. The letter raised a harsh cry in defense of the Spanish tongue."

29 of 426 comments (clear)

  1. I don't understand this... by Millennium · · Score: 4

    How is an influx of loanwords from other languages "destroying" Spanish? This happens all the time in other languages, and no one complains of them being "destroyed" on account of this, with the notable exception of French.

    English, in parrticular, seems to thrive on loanwords. Last I checked, it had over 40,000 from Japanese alone. Why is this the case? I don't know; perhaps it has to do with the diversity and melding of cultures in the US. Several other languages, such as Japanese, also readily accept loanwords, and we don't hear people crying out that loanwords are destroying their languages.

    The fact is, languages evolve over time, be that for good or for ill. Linguists have estimated that the longest any language has been able to survive without significant changes is roughly a thousand years or so. If you aren't willing to accept this, either you'll be branded as an arrogant, pretentious jerk (which you are, if you do this) or you'll find yourself left behind as the language changes around you.
    ----------

  2. Re:I think it's a good thing by ContinuousPark · · Score: 4

    Totally disagree. You're taking darwinian logic too far. There's a BIG difference between everyone knowing one same language to communicate between each other on a global basis (this, I agree it's necessary) and everyone speaking it on a daily basis. Why on Earth would you want to do that?, losing your very own metaphors, potential jokes, songs, hidden meanings.

    I think you ought to have more respect for your own language; there's got to be great literature produced for it that no one else can enjoy as much as you danish-speaking people do. That's important; that's part of your culture and defines who you are. It is NOT unproductive or stupid for everyone not to speak the same language.

    Let us translate your example to computer programming. "However, I woudln't mind if Perl was removed from the face of the earth. In fact, I woudln't mind of Lisp was removed from the earth (my programming language of choice). " That statement would instantly get you flamed by thousands of Perl and Lisp programmers who, although they know there are other options, choose to use this way to express themselves. And yes, it might be a real pain to read this guy's code when you have to mantain it or if it's been OS'd and you wish to modificate it. Or it may be frustrating because the program is written on Python and you don't know Python. BUT if it really mattered to you, you could learn that new language as many people I know who've gone to great lenghts to learn foreign languages so they can enjoy local literature without the distortions of translation. And yes, it's much harder to learn Portuguese than C (or maybe not) but it's a rewarding, culturally enriching experience.

    --


    "All the things one has forgotten scream for help in dreams". Elias Canetti
  3. American or British English? by sheldon · · Score: 3

    But which version of english?

    Do we stand in lines or queues?

    Do we go on holiday or on a vacation?

    We we watch or mind our step?

    While on vacation in London, the first day I was standing in line to buy a underground pass and some lady walked up and asked "Are you in the queue?"

    She had to repeat it four times before I understood what she was talking about.

    Of course my immediate reaction was to wonder if the queue was FIFO or LIFO. :)

  4. Re:Internet Origins? by el_chicano · · Score: 4
    If you want more Spanish on internet sites & in tech jargon, then have more Spanish speaking people &/or companies come up with devices & give them Spanish names & slowly let it infiltrate into mainstream tech jargon.
    You have to remember that these guys are academics, who are interested in the PURITY of the language, so they are somewhat removed from most speakers of that language. I am sure they are equally aghast at words like "enchorito" which sounds like it came from the fevered mind of a Taco Hell market-droid on acid!
    If you *live* in the U.S. you *NEED* to learn English, not expect Americans to learn Spanish, Japanese, French, German, Italian, Hebrew, etc...
    Why? Is the average American so much dumber than the average European? Or many Canadians and Latin Americans? Or me? :-> I think the reason more Americans don't learn other languages is sheer intellectual laziness...
    We simply cannot learn that many languages to accomodate so many foreign cultures, but the immigrants can afford to learn one language if they choose to live here!
    Hmmm.... I've heard those words somewhere before... Rush? Pat? Adolph?
    When you move to another country, they aren't required to adapt to you at all, but if you want to have *ANY* hope of fitting in & making a life for yourself, you *MUST* learn at least their language & a lot of their customs (as long as said customs don't compromise your values).
    So as long as I learn English I don't have to accept any American values that conflict with my polygamous cannibalism? Cool!
    And for any who might be lame enough to say it, *NO*, learning a new language is not compromising values.
    Is true if you are an immigrant but apparently it isn't for those lucky enough to be born in the US.

    You DO know that there is no offical language in the US, don't you? You do know that the current de facto language de jour (English) may not remain the one in the future? You do know that we Chicanos are breeding like rabbits? You do know that we are sneaking all of our cousins across the Rio Grande? :->

    If affirmative action was in vogue, maybe Intel would hire lots of Latinos and have them design chips. Maybe then they could name some of the discoveries and products in Spanish.

    The new Intel "Caliente" -- Ouch, Hot, Don't Touch! There's truth in marketing for you! :->
    --
    You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
    --
    A man who wants nothing is invincible
  5. English is already pretty well screwed by b0z · · Score: 3
    That's not a very good arguement in my opinion. Let me turn it around for English:

    I live in texas, and I know a lot of english speakers (I speak a very tiny amount myself). English is a myth, there is no "English" language anymore. The "problem', if you wish to define it as such, is that it has mutated heavily in the Americas away from "Proper English" (ie. european or "high" english), and within the Americas the differences between, say, the northern U.S. speech in Boston (northern U.S. town) and in Nashville are larger than you would expect (I seem to recall that "tar" was a black sticky substance in New York and a thing you put on the wheel of a car in Alabama, or some such, as an example). This has been occuring long before tech jargon. The differences have grown to the point that the european and american versions of the tongue are almost mutually unitelligible (according to my sources anyway). It must be emphasized that this "blurring" was I think due more to migration than contact with other languages. (Not to say that that didn't play an important role as well, within 100 miles in either direction of the U.S.'s French, Spanish, English, and Dutch borders, pretty much everyone is in linguistic euilibrium between many tongues, "American English" as it's referred to.

    Seriously, the tar example happened to me after moving to the south. It confused the hell out of me when I was working at Sam's Club and a guy was asking where he could get tar from. However, I think even though there are differences, I can understand the British (their language, not their minds), the Australians, Canadians, etc. It is the same with Spanish. Even though I know Spanish as my second language, I can understand someone from Los Mochis and how they sort of pronounce their "ch" as "sh", and in Guadalajara (which sounds normal to me) and even someone from Spain (but their lisp on the letter "d" sounds like faggy Spanish IMHO.) I even understand a little Italian and Portugese because of the Spanish I know. I do agree that this guy is a purist, and copying the French. I do think the Spanish speaking people have a lot of pride in their culture, including their language but sometimes pride gets in the way of intelligence.

    --
    Mas vale cholo, que mal acompañado.
  6. Re:Spanish, French, German, you name it by SPrintF · · Score: 3
    the French tried (and managed) to prevent the linguistic tsunami
    Interesting that you should use a Japanese word that was imported into English to describe the "Anglicization" of language.

    --

    Honesty. Loyalty. Kindness. Laughter. Generosity. Magic!

  7. To expand on this fp attempt... by Mantle · · Score: 3
    I don't think it's a big deal using english words in normal foreign language speech. I am a Cantonese speaker and this type of thing has been happening for years, even before the web explosion of the 90s. We call it "Chinglish". It's not a big deal.

    Languages change and evolve. Lots of words in english come from other cultures and languages. What's wrong with english words being used in other languages?

    If this technological "Spanglish" continues to spread, wrote Betanzos, Spanish as such may not survive.

    Of course. No language can survive if it doesn't change.

    Mantle

    1. Re:To expand on this fp attempt... by Tom+Christiansen · · Score: 3
      And we sure as hell will continue to pronounce words without the "lisp" that Spaniards use to separate themselves from us "uneducated" Chicanos and Central and South Americans.
      This, sir, is pure bunk. It is wrong in so many ways, it's hard to know begin. First of all, it's not a lisp--it's not a speech defect or impediment. It's not related to education level. And it's not global to all of Spain. And it's certainly not something that's done to enforce some sort of cultural separation.

      Let me try to summarize this briefly.

      In old Spanish, there were six sibilants. These lost their voicing, and collapsed into just three: let us call these S1, S2, and S3. S1 was originally a medieval affricate /ts/, but became a dorso-alveolar or laminal /s/ sound. S2 was a less common apico-alveolar /s/ sound. S3 was a palatal /S/ sound (somewhat like as in "sh" in English "ship"). If you don't know the difference between "dorso-alveolar" and "apico-alveolar", don't worry about it; just trust me that they aren't very far apart from one another.

      When two or three sounds are this similar, something has to give. Either they grow closer and merge, or they grow further apart from one another. The seseo phenomenon is the first effect--that is, merging, wheras the differentiation of standard (read: Northern) Spanish is the second one. In "standard" Spanish, we have a splaying out of tongue positions into front, mid, and back, to keep things away from one another. Thus we now have a front apical "theta" sound [T], a mid apical "ese" sound [s], and a back dorsal (or velar) "jota" sound [x], which sometimes becomes not merely a velar but rather an uvular fricative [X]. In any event, they're now very different from one another, so the system is stable again.

      The [s] has a pecular apico-alveolar articulation that sometimes produces the impression of palatality in non-trained listeners, who end up thinking it's really the "sh" as in the English "shirt" (but it's not). In most seseante dialects, which are found in most of Andalucía (with the possible exception of Granada) and consequently in most of the Americas since they were settled by andaluces, the merger of S1 and S2 has a reductive effect on /x/, creating a more forward and relaxed articulation of the velar, producing something more like [h].

      These have serious ramifications on education efforts. First, you end up with homophones where none where supposed to exist. The orthographic system, which was designed for a sz distinction, conserves that, but seseante speakers have a harder time learning. They are unable to distinguish casa from caza or cocer from coser or cerrar from serrar. It's very sad to see spellings like "demaciado in America. In standard speakers, this cannot happen, because there's no theta sound in that word. /demasiado/ and /demaTiado/ are phonemically and thus graphically distinct. (Actually, the /s/ is really [S], a thicker sound than you hear in Mexican or in English.)

      Another hurdle for victims :-) of seseo is verb conjugations. They cannot from their ear hear the difference between something like reconocer and recoser, so the phonologically-derived rule that the first produces an epithetic "z" (to make reconozco) but the second does not, is something which cannot be auditorally inferred.

      One more stumbling block for them is that their weak /x/ ends up confusing some people, who almost sometimes leave it out, producing Meico instead of Méjico.

      Spanish is full of fricatives, far more than in English. It has some English lacks; try to get an English speaker to properly say uva or pago--those intervocalic fricatives there are not in English at all. A voiced stop becomes a fricative intervocalically, and in most other positions, too. Thus the "d" phoneme, which in Spanish is dental and not alveolar as it is in English, manifists as a voiced "th" allophone, such as from the English word, "either". That means that cada is [caDa], casa is [caSa], and caza is [caTa]--all three completely differentiable. Because there's also a subtle voicing effect (which is not phonemic) due to following voiced consonants, words like desde become /desde/, which is actually ['dEZDe], or, if you would "dezhthay". (The two e's are allophonic only; Spanish has only five vocalic phonemes.) And if there were a word preceding desde that didn't end in an "l" or "n", then even the first "d" would become a fricative not a stop. Pues desde luego is going to sound more like [pweS `DEZ De 'lwe Go] to your ear (yes, only five syllables, and it might be [pwEZ] in some speakers depending on speed), which will bother you, as English hasn't got a [G] or a [S] in it at all. :-)

      The familiar phrase Cómo se dice? shows something very different than most Americans expect: ['ko mo Se 'Di Te] (with the "k" from "skate" not from "kate").

      Hey, it could be worse. It could be Portugeuse. :-) There Como é que se diz? seems to come out more as a Slavic-sounding [kmEks 'DiZ] with only two syllables and very few vowels--or in Brazilian, ['kO mu 'E ke si 'dZi zi], with seven syllables instead but some other strange effects.

      Now, even though I've tongue-in-cheekly called the seseo speakers "victims", I'm just kidding. What happened to them in the South is a perfectly natural evolutionary step--that of convergence. It's simply different from what happened in the North, which is divergence. It is not officially "wrong" to sesear. But people who do not do so are not "more educated" than those who do. (They do, however, tend to spell better. :-) A educated speaker from Sevilla is no disparaged just because his casa and his caza sound the same.

      So please knock that chip off your shoulder. They are not doing it to spite you. It's just the way they've talk, and have done so for many centuries. Cope. And while you're at it, you might actually bother to learn some fonética y fonología españolas so you can stop furthering these bigotries and myths.

  8. I think Spanish is safe by nomadic · · Score: 5

    This kind of thing's happened before. Greek became the principal language of the eastern Meditteranean, Latin became the principal language of academics in the Middle Ages, French became the principal language of diplomacy. Now it's English's turn; in a hundred years it'll change to Mandarin or Hindi or Spanish. Unless a language is spoken only by a relatively small group of people, the chances are pretty slim it will be eradicated so easily.
    --

  9. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger by Webmonger · · Score: 4

    By your arguments, English should never have survived. Back when the Normans ruled England, English was the "local tongue" (they called it the vulgar tongue), and French was the language of the "cultural/technical/administrative elite".

    But it turned out to be a Conan thing. Norman occupation of England didn't kill English, it made it stronger. The peasants who used the vulgar tongue weren't too proud to borrow terms from French and Latin, and the variety of synonyms in English is partly because of that.

    So history does NOT say that English will kill Spanish.

    It might. But it might make it stronger.

  10. Re:I think it's a good thing by wholesomegrits · · Score: 4

    The reason for this is that it's simply stupid and unproductive for everyone not to speak the same langauge. At the time, the only language that seems to have the possibility of becoming a truely universal language is English, so I hope more people will talk English.

    Either unaware or blissfully ignorant you've chosen to ignore 4000 years of linguistic development.

    Does it sound at all plausable that 2000 years ago, people were clamoring over Latin being the universal language, just like you are clamoring over English as a universal language?

    English is destined to fail, much like Latin, as a 'universal language'.

    Here's the example of Latin:

    As more and more people spoke it, they each brutalized the language a little differently -- a little colloquism here and there, different stresses on syllables etc...

    It grew to the point where Latin wasn't really latin anymore. Out of this grew the romance languages. From one root, came French, Italian, Spanish etc...

    Now look at English. As more and more people speak it, they brutualize Standard English. The English spoken in Malaysia is nothing like the English spoken in Vermont. It's not english, it's malaysianglish.

    People argue "Oh, but they just have bad accents." WRONG. They are speaking English using the pronunciation rules of Javanese (langauge of Malaysia). Further, words and phrases completely unknown in English are used.

    The sucess of English will be it's downfall. Just like Latin splintered into hundreds of languages, English will follow. The world most of you envision, one cleverly ripped off from Lennon's Imagine, is that of everyone with a flower on their lapel speaking English.

    The reality is that the English spoken in South Dakota will be vastly different from the English spoken in China -- it is an entirely different dialect.

    Look no further than the US. Take that South Dakotan and place him in the South Side of Chichago. Do you think he is going to understand a word of English spoken there? Hell no. It's english, but it's an entirely different dialect.

    That's your Brave New World. Piss on unity. We're heading toward a day of thousands of languages and dialectss, WITH NO COMMON GROUND.

    --
    No sig is worth reading.
  11. I think it's a good thing by Bjarke+Roune · · Score: 5

    First of all, languages are not static but rather they evolve and change all the time. This does not destroy them, it just makes them different. Just by observing that single fact one can see how rediculus this is.

    However, I woudln't mind if Spanish was removed from the face of the earth. In fact, I woudln't mind of Danish was removed from the earth (my own native tongue). The reason for this is that it's simply stupid and unproductive for everyone not to speak the same langauge. At the time, the only language that seems to have the possibility of becoming a truely universal language is English, so I hope more people will talk English.

    There's nothing special about English, though; I'd much prefer a synthetic language like Esperanto that's actually thougth out and easy to learn, instead of the random suckiness inherent in natural languages. But [i]everyone[/i] learning Esperanto or anything besides English unfortunately seems rather unlikely right now.

    Some would say that this would destroy culture, but if a culture is so weak it cannot survive the "loss" of its language, I'd say that people weren't really serious about it anyway.

    1. Re:I think it's a good thing by WNight · · Score: 3

      Yes it would but let's be realistic. The fact is that there is a very strong interdependence between language and culture. An universal language would need an universal culture, that's impossible. We would have to live in the same latitude, grow up eating the same things, watching the same landscapes, thinking, discussing, joking in the same fashion, everything, everywhere would be homogeneous. Is that your notion of an ideal world?

      I disagree with the idea that a culture and a language must be connected. I work with a guy who barely speaks English, yet he completely embraces local culture to the exclusion of his ancestral culture. And I know people who speak English on opposite sides of the Earth who are from completely different cultures.

      I know a Canadian trapper who only rarely comes close enough to town to see other people, a few high-class socialites, a Malaysian girl, an Austrian family, a Tanzanian couple, and many others in my home town (Vancouver BC) who are so different as to be part of a completely different culture.

      There's much more of a language barrier between me and a Scottish friend of mine who grew up in many ways similar to me and has an identical culture, than between me and most of the others, despite the fact that their lives are vastly different than mine.

      I think it would be a good idea if everyone spoke the same language, and I think that technology makes that inevitable. Many parents I know don't bother teaching their children their ancestral language because they can get by just as well without it. Think what it'll be like in the future where everywhere is wired, but to access the majority of the services you'll have to speak/read English... (Not that you said anything about probability, just desirability.)

      On the 'darwinian' angle, many cultural traits are useless. I don't care if my ancestors (a hard group to nail down, I'm a mix of six 'races' in the last two generation.) did some silly thing. It may be neat from a historical lesson to learn the reasons behind eating turkey for Thanksgiving, but I'd prefer to have a ham. And I feel similarly about more 'important' things too, if they're relevant to me now, they will be part of my culture. If they aren't, I don't really care.

  12. Re:La importancia del espa�ol. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3
    As the above poster points out, being multilingual is an important skill, although I'm just beginning to learn spanish, in the spirit of multinationalism and world harmony, I'll practice my spanish here in the hopes that 'we can all get along.'

    Creedme, el español es una lengua importante para el norteamericano.

    Hello, let me introduce myself, I import noodles into North America, mostly linguini

    Todos sabemos que la cultura protestante del norteamericano le hace buscar el beneficio económico (la cultura latina es más "católica").

    Although I'm catholic, I like protestant girls just like your next latino guy but they're expensive to date.

    Y el mercado latino será cada vez más importante.

    My large mercury capri has those controllable shock absorbers, bouncing up and down at a stop light is indeed important.

    Los hispanohablantes son cada vez más, al igual que los chinos. En un mercado globalizado como este el que sepa más idiomas tendrá más mercado y ganará más dinero.

    And yes, its an american car, cost me a bundle too

    Esto los europeos lo tienen muy claro por su diversidad lingüistica.

    Linguini is a popular form of european pasta used in many dishes

    Aquí en europa los estudiantes preuniversitarios

    which while primarily a european staple, is quite universal in favor and worth studying the preparation of

    aprenden 2 lenguas además de la materna. Un universitario europeo que se precie (de cualquier ámbito del

    I had to get this job as my protestant girlfriend is pregnant, and dropped out of university

    saber) dominará su lengua materna (por ejemplo el español),

    she is a dominatrix, albeit a pregnant one that speaks spanish

    hablará con suficiente fluidez el inglés,

    She has been 'retaining fluids' as you english say

    y sabrá defenderse en alemán y francés. Si además es de una región con lengua propia

    so I feed her linguini, with french fries prepared properly

    (catalán, vasco, gallego)

    along with some other dishes (I don't know the translations there)

    conocerá esta lengua también. Sin embargo los anglosajones siguen ciegos. Yo puedo entender una

    she is legal aged, I'm not a puedo or anything, i met her in LA.

    conversación en inglés y se de lo que hablais, pero cuidado!, si no quiero que os entereis de lo que digo solo

    she told me in conversation that I'm going to have to 'do it myself' for awhile

    tengo que hablar en español...

    are you understanding my spanish so far?

    italiano...

    something about italian

    Ya sabeis que nosotros inventamos la "guerrilla", mi consejo: aprended español o perdereis. :D

    So I'm being inventive, although its not consensual, my girlfriend does sleep with her mouth open :D

  13. Language is the most democratic of institutions by HiyaPower · · Score: 5

    By its very nature, Language is the most democratic of all possible institutions. If you decide to call the thingamabob over there a wongle and everone else agrees, it is called a wongle foreverafter until folks decide that it should be called something else. If nobody agrees, then you wander the space asking for a wongle and getting blank stares. Purity of the language agruments are pure rot. The strength of American English (at least) is that it is a total mongrel and thus has hybrid vigor. Given the fact that the rest of the world shipped their treasure to us (black gold from africa, yellow gold from aisia, white gold from europe, red gold from the americas, etc...) we have one of the richest languages in existance. Each of those people had special contributions to make, and these pearls were simply strung on the tread of the old world syntactic construction (sometimes). Thank God that American English did not have any of the "purity" arguments that are being made...

  14. Other languages infiltering into english by K8Fan · · Score: 5

    This whole debate ignore the dymanic nature of language. "English" isn't a plot by english speakers to establish global control. People learn english in order to buy into that power. English speakers use so many words from other languages that the language can't be said to have evolved so much as congealed.

    It's virtually impossible to go through a day in the US without using at least a couple of words that have filtered into US english from other languages. And that's the way it should be. Dr. Samuel Johnson, when he published the first english dictionary, dispaired that people would try to use it as an authority; that it would define the language. He understood that no language in static except a dead one.

    --
    "How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
    1. Re:Other languages infiltering into english by swinge · · Score: 3
      Your comment is 100% correct, but misses about 80% of the whole story. Vocabulary, which you focus on, is only a small part of "language". Of course, these Spanish speakers you are critiquing are making the same mistake so I guess that makes your comment reasonably appropriate, but the "linguistic truth" is more interesting. The Spanish language could adopt every English word, and it could still be considered to be the Spanish language. Language has far more grammar (word order, verb tensing, gender, agreement, etc.) and phonology (how the sounds combine with one another in a meaningful way) as it does morphology, and morphology includes a bit more than just the lexicon (dictionary/vocabulary). And, this is how English adopts so many foreign words and still remains English. There was some very interesting "congealing" of French with English in the years following the Normon conquest of 1066AD, but the language remained essentially and recognizably English just the same.

      People love their native tongues for irrational reasons. But given that, the Spanish speakers of the world (and there are a lot of them) should focus their energy on making their economies more productive. Then other people will actually care what they have to say and will take the trouble to learn their language. I'm not saying that's right and just, but it's just the way it is and has always been.

  15. Much Ado About Nada by Tom+Christiansen · · Score: 5
    Although this article does touch on some reasonably interesting and important issues, it is more notable for what it fails to recognize. The first matter is that Spanish (the world's number two primera lengua, and growing fast) is not only perfectly up to the task of generating new words using classical mechanisms, it is in fact doing so, and quite productively. On p 128 of the most excellent The Romance Languages, editors Martin Harris and Nigel Vincent make the following point:
    Although purist hackles have been raised by the recent influx of anglicisms I(as in France, see p. 243), the productive patterns of the language remain resolutely Romance. The best evidence is that new concepts and artifacts which might easily have attracted a foreign label are so often named from indigenous roots, whether by derivation or compounding. Urbanización "housing development", currently to be seen on builders' placards all over Spain, is made up of impeccably classical roots. Calientaplatos "plate-warmer", lavaplatos "dishwasher", limpiaparabrisas "windscreen-wiper", and even, alas, cartabomba "letter-bomb", use only indigenous material. Through development of this kind, Spanish is becoming more, not less, Romance in its structure.
    Although Spanish does regularly incorporate terms from English (the world's number one second language, and this also growing fast), it does not in my experience do so with the regularity that French does, nor even German. There it's "cool" to use English terms, especially in marketing. While this is true throughout Europe, this is hardly a new phenomenon, nor is it necessarily indicative of lasting fingerprints on the language. Lexical borrowing have occurred throughout history. You do not see the article disparaging the various and many words that were long ago borrowed from the Germanic invaders of the Iberian Penisula, like blanco "white", guardar "to guard, to keep", guerra "war", yelmo "helmet", robar "to steal", ropa "clothing", and ganso "goose". And this is nothing compared with the nearly four thousand words in Spanish that can be traced to Arabic, such as aceite "olive oil", aduana "customs", ajedrez "chess", alcachofa "artichoke", alcalde "mayor", alcohol, algebra, algodón "cotton", algoritmo "algorithm", arroz "rice", azahar "orange blossom", azúcar "sugar", azul "blue", azulejo "ceramic tile", barrio "quarter, neighborhood", berenjena "eggplant", cenit "zenith", cifra "figure, cipher", halagar "to flatter", hasta "until", jaca "pony", jarra "jar, pitcher", mezquino "mean", nadir, naranja "orange", ojalá "if only (literally, may Allah grant)", zanahoria "carrot", and zoco "open-air market"--just to name a few. And then of course we have the Amerindian languages' rich contributions of words such as alpaca, cacoa , chicle, chocolate, cóndor, coyote, llama, maíz, patata, petunia, tapioca, tobaco, and tomate --which you will probably all recognize without translation. :-)

    Not only would Spanish (and in many cases above, also Portuguese) be severely impoverished without these words, so too in many cases would most other European languages. One can hardly begrudge them these.

    What the author of this article is actually complaining about may in fact be the fact that nominally bilingual people in the United States often, in fact, no neither language particularly well. Later on in the same page as I cited earlier, one also reads the following:

    If membership of hispanidad is determined by mutual intelligibility, we are obliged to exclude the creoles of Colombia and the Far East which, though often loosely described as "Spanish creoles", appear on closer scrutiny to have autonomous grammatical systems (for further discussion, see Chapters 1 and 12). More problematic are the "Hispanic" varieties of the United States which range on a continuum between lightly dialectal puertorriqueño and the basilectal form of chicano, which has undergone some of the morphological modification usually associated with creolisation and has assimliated numerous calques of American English lexical and idiomatic structures. These internal chararistics, together with the frequent code-switching between Spanish and English common to all Hispanic variants in the USA, can render chicano totally impenetrable to monolingual Spanish speakers.
    That's certainly true in the Southwest, where you routinely hear this "code-switching" en las calles and with the ubquitous cucina-help chavalines washing sus dishes sucios, if tu takes my meaning aquí. :-) There is a fascinating beauty that comes from being able to freely intermix two languages in one conversation and even in one sentence, where words and syntax skip back and forth.

    One thing that's seldom mentioned, which is going here, is that Spanish is not in the United States considered a prestige language. It is widely disparaged, relegated to the working class, or even the nominal underclass. This is completely different from what happens in, say, Canada, where the French language heritage is elevated and venerated--and vehemently and vociferously so, too, for where else but Québec can you find supercilious arrête signs where in even Paris and Madrid and Bonn and Tokyo you see normal stop signs? Sigh.

    It is very sad but true that Spanish speakers in America are not taught their rich heritage. They do not know their writers of antiquity, like Cervantes, Unamuno, Lope de Vega, Galdós, Fray Luis de León, Santa Teresa, Quevedo, or San Juan de la Cruz. They do not know their writers of this century, like Federico García Lorca, Carlos Fuentes, Gabriel García Márquez, Manuel Puig, Jorge Luis Borges, and Rudolfo Anaya (to spread around the honors geographically). As I've heard say in New Mexico (the only State which is legally bilingual), "It is even easier to be illiterate in two languages than in one." :-( Then again, how many English speakers know their own literature? Few, I suspect.

    You can hardly fault tejanos for their curious code-switching or their rampant Spanglishization. You may flinch at hearing how in Texas then rentan something instead of alquilándolo, or talk about driving their troques instead of their camiones. (The former is especially annoying, because la renta is one of those faux amis that already has a meaning quite different in Spanish than the English cognate would suggest!) Then again, when you listen to Texans speak English, you might be a bit unnerved there, too. :-)

    In technical jargon, Spanish certainly has much of its own terminology, as this article on El sistema de ficheros virtual de Linux will show you. Sure, you see a few foreign terms there, like driver and off-line, but by and large, they are perfectly native terms, such as an enlace simbólico. Somtimes there are transliterations, like superbloques and inodos (eg " El NFS guarda una tabla de inodos virtuales y su correspondencia"). But Spanish has plenty of its own words for things, like teclado "keyboard" and pantalla "screen".

    (In Portuguese, interestingly enough, although teclado is keyboard, you have ecran to be screen, a French borrowing (the French word is actually éran), not an English one. I don't hear anyone in Portgual complaining about borrowing the French word, although I wouldn't completely blame them if they were to spell it eicrã to better match the pronunciation.)

    Better that the hispanohablantes (hispanophones?) should use driver or superbloque though, which are obvious in derivation, than that they should use such deceptive monstrosities as the recently legally approved term in French, cédéron, meaning, of course, "CD-ROM". This is evil because it is not traceable back to Romance roots, and requires several linguistic jumps to decode. You must first say it out loud, transliterate back to English, then lookup an acronym in English (misspelled, too--see the "n"?) before you have a chance of knowing what it means. This is wicked.

    Now, you'll always have people arguing about ficheros versus archivos in Spain and Mexico respectively, or ficheiros versus arquivos in Portugal and Brazil respectively. But these are no different than arguing about trucks and lorries between the US and UK, or heros versus hoagies versus grinders versus sub(marine sandwiche)s here in the States. These are really immaterial. The transliterations are a bit more jolting, such as people using salvar espacio to save space rather than ahorrar espacio, or salvar un fichero to save a file rather than guardar un fichero. It annoys because salvar is--well, originally--one of those religious things having to do with salvation. Agonizing purists tell you that you simply cannot salvar dinero--that you can only ahorrarlo, of course, and that buffers must be guardados, as their souls are not in peril. :-)

    But probably, this is no greater a shift than the mutilations we see daily in English, like "unique" weakened to mean merely "unusual", "ubiquitous" weakened to mean merely "commonplace". In the technical arena, we see it when people use "hacker" to mean "cracker" and "memory" to mean "disk space"--and, I suppose, "software" to mean by default source-less for-pay "fleeceware", although I nominate "Billware" for that. :-) It's happened before (consider "awful" last century), and there's just no stopping it.

    Let me finish this up with a note of encouragement, taken from the concluding page of the chapter in the reference book I've already quoted from:

    [Spanish] is also, with Portuguese, one of only two Romance languages to be increasingly rapidly its numbers of speakers; on those grounds alone its future seems assured. But in the process of expansion from minor dialect to major world language, Spanish has become a little more like some of the varieties it once rivalled.
    These languages are growing, not always as one wants them to, but really no differently than they've always grown, and not as nastily as the article would have us all believe. If you want people to know a language, a literature, a history, and a culture, then you have to teach that to them!

    I now return you to your previously scheduled mano-a-mano diatribes; me, I've got a burrito nuking. :-)

    Decía Carlos V, el Emperador, que el inglés era lengua para hablar con los pájaros; el alemán con los caballos; el francés con los hombres; el italiano con las damas, y el español para hablar con Dios.
  16. Re:Spanish, French, German, you name it by Detritus · · Score: 3
    ...it helps us Chicanos cope with the fact that our land was stolen from us...

    Oooh, look at the violence inherent in the system.

    The Americans stole the land from the Spanish, who stole it from various Native Americans, who stole it from other Native Americans, and on and on it goes. You are going to have a hard time finding a decent piece of land on this planet that hasn't been "stolen" several times.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  17. Spanish is already pretty well screwed by StandardDeviant · · Score: 3

    I live in texas, and I know a lot of spanish speakers (I speak a very tiny amount myself). Spanish is a myth, there is no "Spanish" language anymore.

    The "problem', if you wish to define it as such, is that it has mutated heavily in the Americas away from "Castilian" (ie. european or "high" spanish), and within the Americas the differences between, say, the hispanoamerican speech in Guanajuanto (sp? northern mexico university town) and in Rio are larger than you would expect (I seem to recall that "sanitares" (sp?) was fruit in Guatemala and bathroom in Mexico, or some such, as an example). This has been occuring long before tech jargon. The differences have grown to the point that the european and american versions of the tongue are almost mutually unitelligible (according to my sources anyway).

    It must be emphasized that this "blurring" was I think due more to migration than contact with other languages. (Not to say that that didn't play an important role as well, within 100 miles in either direction of the texas-spanish border, pretty much everyone is in linguistic euilibrium between the two tongues, "spanglish" as it's referred to.

    So to sum up, this guy is just a hyper-purist, much like hyper-purists in pretty much every culture. As is typical of most purity fanatics, he's focused on one thing as the root cause of all the changes he doesn't like (like a Southern Baptist focusing on Disney as the corruptor of Family Values).


    --

  18. Spanish, French, German, you name it by Thomas+Miconi · · Score: 4

    This backlash against the English language [?] must be taken in a wider context. English is silently creeping its way to Absolute World Domination, IT being only its last (and most powerful) Trojan horse.

    20 years ago, when the first IT wave hit our side of the Ocean, the French tried (and managed) to prevent the linguistic tsunami by creating new words (or reusing old ones) for IT-related stuff, and these words were indeed quite good ("ordinateur" and "logiciel" sound nicer to our ears than "computer" and "software") and were quickly adopted. But at some point you have to face the obvious : The Internet is 90% English-speaking. Whatever the subject, documentation written in English may be ten times as abundant as in any other language. What can you do against that ?

    This is especially frightening for us in a EU context : how long will we be able to carry on with the current policy, that is,translating any document in the 3 major languages (German, French and English) and as many documents as possible in the 11 (as of now) languages of the EU ? It's already cumbersome enough today - so what will it be like in a 30-members EU ? We feel that at some point the case for "English Everywhere" will become extremely strong, and to be honest we find it not only unfair (Britons would get a huge comparative advantage) but downright terrifying.

    "One world, one economy, one language" (I wonder what it sounds like in German ?). Welcome to a Brave New World of civilization and progress, where the global elite will use its own language (American English), turning every other language into minor dialects used only by poorly educated locals.

    Now this may sound like plain paranoia (and it is, to some point). But History shows that whenever local tongues are confronted with a mainstream language used by the cultural/technical/administrative elite, the latter wins. Think of Russia in the 17th-18th century (or even better, read "War and Peace" to see how close Russia came to becoming a French-speaking country, and why it didn't). The only major exception I can think of is Quebec - which survived as a cultural entity thanks to the federal nature of Canada.

    There's a real fear here, and although I understand that it may look somewhat ridiculous when looked at from the good side of the Babel Fish, you should realize that it is nothing like nationalistic ranting. If we were machines, driven by purely rational goals such as productivity, efficiency, etc., we would all agree to speak the same language - be it English, Latin, SmallTalk, whatever.

    We're not machines. We have a thing which we call culture, and that culture is the very definition of our identity (this is especially true for old European countries). The current "Anglicization" of the world is seen by some as a menace to our national identities, virtually undistinguishable from a military one. The Quebec example, which is now seen as an exception, might soon become the general standard.

    After European peasants destroying McDonald's diners, who knows the next step of the transatlantic cold war won't be angry academics sacking cybercafés ?

  19. Funny, They remind me of the french government by dfenstrate · · Score: 3
    I used to think the French were the only ones who wanted to keep their language from being bastardized by tech terms. Now it seems like a few spanish people want to join in the fray? Did you know that France actually has a government beauru to fight the cultural and linguistic invasions of other nations? My point is, languages evolving and taking words from other lanquages is nothing new. When France had control of great britain a few years back, plenty of their words leaked into our lexicon, and now they don't think it flows both ways? There's an entire group of words that mean the same thing in English as French -I forget the term for them- but they all have a common ending -ion or something like that.

    Being a rather fluid thing, languages are constantly evolving at the will of the people, not a government office. The French have been trying for years, for example, to get people over their to use some phrase like "sac explosif que cela se protège" instead of air bag . It isn't working. People say it air bag because it's shorter, and advertisers use it becuase it takes up less space on the page. I don't think it'll work for the spanish, either. Other countries always bitch about The United State's cultural and economic hegemony over much of the world. As most of such countries are far older than ours, they seem to have a short memory, forgetting that they already had their shot at world dominance and spreading their ways. England, Spain, Greece, Persia, Rome, and many others had their empires. Now it's our turn, and we don't have to blow anyone up to get our way.

    We just spread our Generican Culture.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  20. Job security by Syberghost · · Score: 3

    Gee, the President of the North American Academy of the Spanish Language doesn't want people slowly migrating toward English.

    This is about like the President of GM bitching about Honda outselling his products.

    BTW, this guy's wife makes her living teaching English to Spanish-speakers in New York so they can get jobs. She's accepted it, why can't he?

    -

  21. Language is what language is by DeepDarkSky · · Score: 5
    Hey, so what if Spanish proper disapears? If the people decide not to speak Spanish, that somehow it is in their best interest to speak English, because it is perhaps the language of choice of the most technologically affluent in the world, so be it. It reflects the dynamic nature of human societies.

    In some ways, I do resent that somehow people who speak Spanish feel it is necessary to get Spanish spoken everywhere, that somehow Spanish is the only language that matters. Here in NYC, if you tell me that you are in fear of Spanish disappearing, I'd wack you in the head! About half (I exaggerate a little, but it sure seems that way) of the signs are in Spanish! If Spanish is disappearing, it must all be coming to New York!

    Here's a link: The 50 Most Widely Spoken Languages in the World that gives you an idea of where things are. It doesn't show, of course, the language spoken by income or by technological level, but with Spanish being the number two language in the world, ahead of English, it is hardly in danger of disappearing. Methinks they are being a little alarmist. Personally, I think they should go to China and demand that half of the signs be in Spanish.

  22. Slashdot in espa�ol by Mzilikazi · · Score: 4
    There's a Spanish language version of Slashdot...

    Barrapunto.com

    It's not a transcription of Slashdot, but many of the same topics show up. I read it once in a blue moon, and this very topic is being hashed out over there.

    --
    Random Musings at Rum Smuggler
  23. Re:Internet Origins? by athlon02 · · Score: 5

    I'm not sure of all the facts of where & how & who started the internet, but I do have this much to say:

    If you want more Spanish on internet sites & in tech jargon, then have more Spanish speaking people &/or companies come up with devices & give them Spanish names & slowly let it infiltrate into mainstream tech jargon.

    To rant about how Spanish might be dying out because of so much English tech jargon, is crazy. You must adapt yourself to learn the technological terms of those who created the technology... I call a "Zip Drive" a "Zip Drive" because that is the name IOmega gave it, not me. And so what if it happens to be in English, it was developed by a corporation living in a predominately English speaking country.

    All this is akin to the following:

    If you *live* in the U.S. you *NEED* to learn English, not expect Americans to learn Spanish, Japanese, French, German, Italian, Hebrew, etc... We simply cannot learn that many languages to accomodate so many foreign cultures, but the immigrants can afford to learn one language if they choose to live here!

    It's similar to what my university's career center told those of us going to coop jobs. Something to the effect of: "Write down names because the people at work only have one name to learn, you have all of their names to learn."

    And don't get me wrong, if I was going to move to Canada, I'd probably brush up on my french to the point of some fluency in it. If I went to Mexico to *live* there I'd learn Spanish. If I were to live in Italy, I'd learn Italian. It's really that simple. When you move to another country, they aren't required to adapt to you at all, but if you want to have *ANY* hope of fitting in & making a life for yourself, you *MUST* learn at least their language & a lot of their customs (as long as said customs don't compromise your values).

    And for any who might be lame enough to say it, *NO*, learning a new language is not compromising values.

    So again, if tech jargon comes from English speaking "techies" adapt. And if it bugs you, convert the English words to Spanish equivalents in the documentation for Spanish OSes & when talking to other Spanish speaking people, but do *NOT* complain to any English speaking people if you start saying the term in Spanish & they don't know what in the world you are talking about.

    In the words of John Stossel on the news program 20/20... "Give me a break."

  24. The Internet is destroying English. by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 5
    Forget other languages; the Internet is destroying English at a steady clip. If I read one more email that looks like:
    r u coming over 2night?
    or even one with proper sentance structure, and real words, but no capatalization or puncutation, I'll scream. Happens about once a week. :-) Let alone the jargon, acronyms, 'isms,' 'izations' and creating brand new verbs, such as 'Lets dialouge about this!' that are made up on a regular and daily basis.
    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  25. Problems in Germany as Well by The-Bus · · Score: 3
    Spanish has always had problems with intermixing languages. Ask any native Spanish speakers living in the US; for better or for worse, they or someone they know speaks 'Spanglish.' I saw a lot of this when I lived in Puerto Rico, where someone asked me, "Vas a celebrar Crij-ma?" (read: "Will you celebrate Christmas?"). But it's ridiculous to think that any major language will "disappear"... look at Latin, that's been dead in society for hundreds of years, but still being (at least studied) by academics.

    Where I see a REAL problem is with Germany. Use of English in their language is becoming increasingly hip. I was there this summer and about 6 years before that, and the amount of English phrases, words, and idioms being pushed on the German people largely by the media and entertainment industry is astounding. The cool thing to do was to attend the special screenings of American films that weren't dubbed... Radio advertises "Top Hits Today" and one of the major ice-cream brands in "Manhattan Ice Cream" which runs the absolutely funniest commercials with the worst American stereotypes. I also worked in a small firm for that summer, and mostly everyone knew a few phrases of business English, because they knew very well that that was THE language being used, even if they were to communicate with clients from China, Pakistan, or Canada.

    I just remember this joke...

    Q. What do you call a person who speaks three languages?
    A. Tri-lingual.

    Q. What do you call a person who speaks two languages?
    A. B-lingual.

    Q. What do you call a person who speaks one language?
    A. American!

    --

    Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

  26. Bullsh*t Academica by ackthpt · · Score: 3
    Nothing like stirring a pot to get your 15 minutes of fame. The greatest challenge other languages face is that these advancements are often made in english speaking countries or under the auspices of english rooted companies.

    Sure, you can be like the french and create your own native language word for everything from ASP to Zorkmids, but that just builds a confusing barrier when French techs and non-French techs dialogue.

    Time for people like Mr. Betanzos to wake up and smell the java. Languages have mixed and borrowed since the first fork of peoples (Oh, yeah? Well you go that way and we'll go this way, alright?) American English is a hodgepodge of everything, bearing little resemblance to its germanic origins. Give it a rest.

    --

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar