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Is Sony Turning Its Back On CD-Rs?
slashdoter asks: "For Christmas my mother got a 5 DVD/CD changer from Sony (model DVP-C660). I hooked it up for her and we both where impressed by the picture and sound quality, anyway for the last year or so I have been using Napster to make CD's of her record collection. Today she put in one of the burned CD's and it would not play. After reading the manual I found the among a list of unsupported formats there was 'CD-R', which really shocked me. Every device in my house playas CD-R's, and I could see this if it was a first generation CD player but the CD-R standard has been out longer than the DVD standard. Is the unit defective or is Sony up to something?" Is there a reason why Sony would make it's DVD player deliberately incompatible with CD-R's which, at first glance, doesn't make much sense.
A lot of DVD players don't support CD-R discs. Don't ask me why it's so; but I don't think it has anything to do with "piracy prevention," it's more by-product of the way the laser picks up data from the discs on DVD players.
My Pioneer DV-606D doesn't support CD-Rs either, for what it's worth.
I've actually been wanting a list of players that DO support CD-Rs for a while now. (Besides playing audio CDs, it's useful for VCDs.)
Breakfast served all day!
I really don't see what is surprising here. This is a DVD changer that also happens to play CD's. 90% of DVD players, due to the makeup of the laser, can't play CD-Rs. Only players from Pioneer, Apex, and a couple other companies can. I guess you should have checked the stats on the player first.
Check out http://www.vcdhelp.com for a list of DVD players that can read CD-Rs.
I can't say for sure why they would do this. I'd imagine it was some bean counter cost thing. From what I understand CD-R discs return only a 1/10th of the laser light that a regular CD does. Therefore they would need more sensitive electronics. Of course, a DVD disc might be the same way (returning a smaller portion of the laser light as compared to a CD disc) which would moot my whole theory. But I'd still consider it a cost thing. Besides, the purpose of Sony is to make money - not do the 'right' thing (support every type of disc known to man).
--
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Light him on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life
Cartman: because they're assholes
Me: Oh, yeah that makes sence
Seriously sony have continuously shown they have no interest whatsoever in preserving "fair use" the thinkoholics at sony go.. what are CD-R used for only for pirating music let's not make it work.
I see some people saying many DVD drives don't play CD-R's, but for what it's worth, I have what Windows identifies as a "Toshiba DVD-ROM SD-M1202" that not only reads CD-R, but even CD-RW with no trouble. I got it dirt cheap a year and a half ago, before I had a CD burner at all. I wasn't expecting CD-RW to work, that was a nice surprise, but I would have been disappointed if CD-R hadn't.
I have several musician friends who release a lot of material on CD-R. I'd think that by this point every CD reader should be able to read CD-Rs - there are plenty of legitimate uses, and I'd be real surprised if even Sony would make a decision to stop supporting them. This must just be some funky design flaw with this model's laser.
\subject
And explain the problem politely, but loudly enough for everyone else in line to hear.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
1© Reading a CD-R requires one wavelength of laser light©
2© Reading a DVD requires a different wavelength©
3© Sony gets lazy/tries to cut costs and uses a read laser that can't see CD-Rs ¥maybe©
666© Insert SONY/RIAA/MPAA-cracks-down-on-piracy conspiracy theories in between any of the above steps©
-the wunderhorn
Karma: Bored. (Thinking about resurrecting the "Anyone else is an imposter" joke.)
I'm as big a fan of a conspiracy theory as anybody, but I'm afraid that the root of this problem is in the type of laser used. When the first prototype DVD devices started appearing on the market, I was a lab monkey at Intel, and we noticed the same problems. The issue was eventually resolved, but it made the device $5-20 more expensive. Most likely, Sony has done a market survey and determined that CD-R is not something that is worth adding that much to the cost of the device.
I had the same problem with my Sony DVP-S300. I couldn't get it to play my CDR's. A friend enlightened me: Use High Quality media ONLY. Cheap CDR's (the ones with blue-green tint) will not play in Sony DVD players. However, higher quality CDRs, the ones with only a very slight tint (and therefore a higher reflectivity) will play in sony DVD players. I proved this empirically.
"I'm The Bounty Bear. I will find him anywhere. I'm searching."
So its not at all a conspiracy by Sony to protect its music industry. Especially considering the fact that Sony makes several MP3 players.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Many CD-Rs are "invisible" to DVD players' lasers. The specs should mention whether they can handle CD-R(W)s. Here's a link to a part of a DVD FAQ with a little more info. http://www.dvdcity.com/officialfaq.html#2.4.3 Andy
I am afraid I just assumed that it would play the CD-R(W) formats.(I had bought it to replace the 10 year old Yamaha 5 CD changer that played damn near anything shiny and flat I could jam into it) It never mentioned the lack of support for these formats on the box. It wasn't until I RTFM that I saw the extensive list of unsupported formats.
Needless to say, this one is now earmarked as the spare/bedroom unit and the plans for its replacement are in progress.
Due to the way that CD-Rs place pits on the CD-R, the laser that reads the data on the CD-R has to be the same wavelength as a standard infrared laser that CD players use.
"Silver" CDs will work with the Red laser that DVD players use, since, while the red laser breaks the spec, the pits on CDs pressed from glass masters are more tolerant of the laser's wavelength.
The DVD players that do work with CD-Rs have to have some extra electronics to work with CD-Rs. Basically, these DVDs have two lasers: one for DVD media, and one for CD and CD-R media.
Anyway, I think I will go to Kuro5hin now.
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
i've been shopping for a DVD player that can play CDs and MP3 CDs, in order to partially replace my aging stereo, and have found that most, if not all the DVD/CD players i've seen will not play (or won't officially support) CDR discs. the only ones that say they will are those that also play MP3 CDs (and it makes sense, as there aren't very many pressed MP3 CDs out there)
i doubt it's a sony (or pioneer, or panasonic, or AIWA) thing. I suspect it's the lasers the DVD players use. those that read CDR may have an additional laser, or else have a different kind than Joe DVD. they also have the tendency to play VCDs, which makes me think it's more than just an anti-piracy thing.
anyhoo, my 2 cents, from having spent many hours researching a good combo DVD player (i bought a sony, and i'm returning it for an Apex 703 - 3 disc changer, upgradeable firmware, plus MP3 playback)
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
DVD lasers can't pick up CD-R data. You need a dual-laser pickup for that. Not many have this feature (my Pioneer and my Sampo can, however). A lot of newer drives using DVD-ROM internally will be able to, but don't expect this to be a feature of the player unless specifically stated. As for CD-RW and regular CDs, they respond to the DVD light much better so some single-laser pickups can read it.
Read the box before buying the player. If it doesn't explicitly support CD-R, don't trust it.
æeee!
A buddy of mine got himself a dvd player for christmas (JVC, maybe, can't remember.) The store salesman said that it didn't play CD-Rs, and when he read the manual, it also said CD-Rs were unsupported. However, just out of curiosity, he popped an audio CD-R in the dvd player, and to his surprise, it played.
I suspect that you'll see a lot of dvd players that say they don't support CD-Rs just because it's sort of a fikle media - the quality and playability of the CD may often depend on the quality of writable disc and the manufacturer of the CD burner. Due to such factors, dvd player manufacturers probably don't want to hear about problems relating to CD-Rs, and have to worry about feilding technical support for issues dealing with CD-Rs.
-kidlinux.
I play in a regional niche folk music band. We sell hundreds of CDs and prefer to use CD-Rs since we can make small runs and replace tracks on future runs if we wish. I'd be ticked (and legally injured) if Sony is using their clout in the CD player industry to deliberatly block CD-Rs in order to protect their "corporate music" industry. Now I'm sure there are more legal hurdles than that, but sounds like its well on the way to an anti-trust suit.
Ob Fact I do believe it is most likely a technical laser issue and not a corporate decision. Just getting the issue raised.
Ob Anarchy Note Yes, you can get my music for free (that which I am legally allowed to give away anyway, most of our songs are not OpenLyrics tm). http://www.mp3.com/ozark. Don't go there and rack up our dollars, just go if you want to listen.
Oh and the Apex DVD players are great. The AD660 can read an MPEG 1 or MPEG2 burned straight to a CD-R. No need to format the file as a VCD.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
I was recently shopping for a home DVD player and I found many that did not support CDR/RW. The first one I purchased, the Samsung DVD-711 support CDR/RW AND MP3. This was extremly cool! The unit itself looks awesome, and the remote is one of the coolest I've seen, but as it was rumored to do, it skipped a couple times only after about 3 days of movie playing.
There was no way I was going to lay down $200 for a skipping DVD player. I then bought the Pioneer DV333 which had great reviews. And while the remote is terrible/ugly and the unit itself is not too pretty, it plays like a champ and has had absolutly no problems with skipping. It also supports CDR/W.
If I had my choice I take the looks and remote of the Samsung unit and combine them with the Pioneer engineering for my perfect DVD player. But for now I'll take the good quality of my Pioneer and see what happens in the future. I know that if I was an electronics company, I would support CDR/RW/DVD as I know myself along with a TON others look for that in a player.
--
Scott Miga
suprax@linux.com
every single reply to this post has said the same thing: "i think it's the laser" or "the laser has something to do with it." do you people not bother to read the other comments before you post? if there have been 10 comments saying "i think it has something to do with the laser," why add an 11th?
:)
think people.
anyhow, i think it has something to do with the lasers they use in DVD players.
- j
He-Ne laser --> 683 nm --> red
Ar-Ion laser --> 514 nm --> green
blue diode laser --> does not exist
Blude diode lasers are in development, but have not quite reached the stage where they are reliable/cheap/mass-producable. The substrate material will eat istelf after ~5 days of use.
I doubt that laser intensity and reflectivity prevent CD-R's from being read by a DVD player. My laptop, which has a toshiba DVD drive, can read CD-R's just fine. It only has one laser. My conclusion from this observation would be that Sony is jerking you around.
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I don't know whether folks will find this surprising or not, but the PS2 CAN read CDRs. I listened to one of my collections just the other day with nay a problem from the deck. I also have a 500 series player that can read a VCD and CD from a CDRW, but can not read a CDR disk. You might want to try burning your songs to a CDRW disk and use that! Interestingly, the PS2 can NOT read CDRW....
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
An article like this shows how low the quality of Slashdot's journalism has gone. Making these kinds of rash accusations wihtout a solid knowledge of the facts is irresponsible.
Dude, it's an Ask Slashdot. Somebody asked what was going on, Cliff said that he wasn't sure, but that it didn't make sense. No journalistic-integrity problem here.
-Waldo
This is nothing new with Sonys. They are notorious for being picky at playing CDRs. Car Audio enthusiasts have known this for years. You can either use higher quality media, or not buy a Sony.
I emailed Sony about the same model above after my well informed electronics store rep told me the bad news with CD-R and their DVD players. In their infinite wisdom to protect their music properties, they are losing twice the business by resisting online distribution, which people are doing anyway, and then locking down their boxes, alienating their customers to seek alternative technologies. Unfortunately, I got the standard corporate babble response. My research tells me that they have calibrated their laser to reject tinted media which make up most CD-R's. However, I am told clear/silver CD-R media works. The Toshiba 4205 5 Disc DVD Player does play CD-R. Being a primarily Sony Buyer when it comes to electronics, I am annoyed enough to make a decision to buy the Toshiba, or an Apex, or Arcam. The last two support MP3 and multi-region coding. You lose Sony. weenerdog
Besides better tracking DVD's use shorter wavelength lasers so the holes can be smaller. The substrate in CD-R's was designed to be as reflective as possible -- which isn't very -- in the range of wavelengths used by CD players. CD-R's are marginal even in standard CD players; the DVD player sees an even weaker signal than the CD player does because it uses the wrong color light.
It's no more a matter of piracy prevention than the fact that most regular CD players still won't play CD-RW's, which reflect even less light than CD-R's.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
Phillips have been big on CD-R's and "making your own mixes".... Sony seems to be thinking that supporting CD-Rs and even their long struggling minidisc format will hurt their newest champion, the memory stick. This is a bit odd to me, for it seems like Sony's left hand doesn't know what it's right hand is doing. Sony picture frames, computers, and even printers are supporting the memory stick, but the PS2, DVD players, radio tuners, and TV's arent. The lack of CD-R support is definitely intentional, as even old car CD players support them. It's worth noting that a number of less popular and new DVD player manufacturers are supporting CD-Rs packed with MP3s :) (EPOX is the only one that comes to mind right now)
"It's not a conspiracy to prevent piracy, it's just the laser! The laser doesn't pick up CD-R's well, it's just the way it works!"
Did it ever occur to you people that maybe when DVD was being developed, there might have been a conversation that went like this:
Engineer: "Well, this 60nm blue laser we're using works great, EXCEPT it won't read CD-Rs."
Executive: "CD-R? What's that? Is that like a CD?"
Engineer: "Well yeah, it's a recordable CD, so people can write their own CDs. You know, they can backup data, make custom music CDs, whatever."
Executive: "Oh really."
(Later.)
Executive: "Well the engineer said they COULD use another type of laser, or a dual-laser doohickey, so it could read CD-Rs, but, ah, you know how [Hollywood | the music division of our humongous multinational greed-driven conglomerate | the lawyers] is/are about recordable media..."
Executive 2: "Good point. Let's stick with the single blue laser. No copying for you! Muahahaha!"
Executive: "Muahahaha!"
Okay, it probably wasn't that nefarious, but did it ever occur to you that they chose that type of laser PARTIALLY BECAUSE IT CAN'T READ CD-Rs WELL?
Note that I am not claiming that this is what happened, but I find it nearly amazing that no one here even bothered to entertain the possibility.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Every device in my house playas (sic) CD-R's
What, the toaster too? And the coffee maker? And the refrigerator? Where can I get ones like that?!
And the brethren went away edified.
At the Consumer Electronics Show now wrapping up, Sony showed its first CDR-compatible DVD players. The engineers and marketers said it was because of market demand, and that they did it over the objections of Sony Music. Maybe if y'all read some real news sources and not just rumor-and-conspiracy sites like Slashdot, you'd know this.
To repeat: Sony fought supporting CDR playback until now, and have been backed into it by consumer demand.
Remember: the Playstation 2 doesn't play VideoCDs at all, in a market where all other DVD players can play VideoCDs. Sony sells DVDs and CDs. They do resist any technology that erodes those businesses heavily until they're forced to do otherwise.
If you want a DVD player that can play CDRs, CD-RW, VCD, SVCD, XVCD, MP3s and so forth, everybody knows the way to go is with no-name Chinese-made players, because the Chinese domestic market demands these features, so the manufacturers include support for all of the above. VCDs pressed on CDR media are extremely popular in China, and are in fact driving much of the market for players.
The problem with many DVD players that can't read CD-R's is due to the laser pickup. It all has to do with refelectance. Regular CD's are an almost perfect mirror with something like an 85-95% reflectance. CD-R's on the other hand, probably have something like 65% reflectance. CD-RW's have something around 35% reflectance which is why they won't play in all but the newest audio players. I bought a Toshiba SD-1200 DVD player because of the fact that it was inexpensive, had a great picture and also had lots of nice features. I found out when I took it out of the box that it didn't support CD-R's. (even said so in the manual.) ...Or so I thought.
Knowing that the problem was more than likely a laser pickup that needed a higher reflectance level on the disc, I tried a number of different brands of CD-R. Eventually I found a brand that worked. Would you belive it, it's a Sony! Sony's CDQ-74CN to be exact. Sony advertises these discs as having "Excellent Optical Technology" or XO. Give this a try.. you may find that it works.
I guess now that Usenet has become essentially unusable, Slashdot is the place to go when your too damned lazy to spend the five minutes it would take to answer this yourself?
Try this: Go to Google. Type in "CDR FAQ", and press return. Click on the very first returned link., for the "Andy McFadden's CD-Recordable Frequently Asked Questions." Read the table of contents, and follow the link to Can DVD players read CD-Rs?. Read.
It would be really, really nice if the guy who posted to "ask slashdot" had done any homework at all, and found out if there was some "unusual" reason his Sony DVD doesn't work with CD-R disks, such as Sony intentionally not supporting some logical format or if this was just the standard Frequently Asked Question that wouldn't even get into most moderated usenet news groups.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
The 660 is the replacement for the 600A. No secret menu though : ( It doesn't play all MPEG's and some will play, but with problems (no sound, no color, etc...) Still, not a bad bonus feature. Apex doesn't advertise this ability because it doesn't offer full support.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
HTH
-Cyclopatra
"We can't all, and some of us don't." -- Eeyore
"We can't all, and some of us don't." -- Eeyore
Hmm?
-Omar
Bzzzt.
The main reason some (esp 1st gen) DVDs can't read CDRs is precisely to do with the reflectivity. The reflective index of a DVD is typically about 35% that of a (silver) CD. The reflective index of a CDR is.... about 35% that of a (silver) CD.
I did a training course on mobile (in-car) dvd at pioneer a while back, and they were on about just this problem. The newer machines, those with two lasers or with a holographic-laser diode set, have no trouble.
However, this doesn't seem to be the case with Sony on this model. I have never seen a unit list CD-R as a standard not supported, and IMO this has to be aimed at the piracy issue. Sony == Columbia Studios == Sony Music, don't forget.
Ben^3The Slashdot Paradox: "100% Overrated"
Best Buy sells a 200-disc Sony DVD/CD changer and I'm listening to a burned CD copy right now. This player costs $299, and having had it for two months now I'm quite impressed with it.
By the way, this story scared the living bejesus out of me as I hadn't tried CD-R's in the player until just now. Kinda would have interfered with plan to be a truly evil person by taking all the CD's I bought and copying them so I can listen to them in the car and at home.
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I would highly recommend this changer for anyone concerned about playback of CD-Rs and CD-RWs.
Marantz also makes this beauty:
http://www.marantz.com/db/?MIval=h_product_full&pr od_id=496
No, I don't work for Marantz, but I have owned some of their products for quite a while. Great stuff!
It's not due to reflectivity. CD-Rs reflect about 80% which is very close to the reflectivity of pressed CDs.
Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
So there is no technical reason it can't be done. Maybe a patent reason though.
Sony would make it's DVD player deliberately incompatible with CD-R's
/. would post a story with the stupid "deliberately incompatible" question in the body.
/. sleeping or just 'Cliff' & 'Slashdotter'?
/. crowd would be more 'in-tune' with the 'big picture' - but it seems that we are as addle-minded at the population at large: Dazed and confused by the world around us, so much so that the obvious becomes surreal and existance is a picture-show. Was there anyone not thouroughly disgusted with sony before this?
Maybe its, Ummmh, uh I dunno... maybe it is because sony is the most evil,controlling,$WHORES$ in media & electronics today?
Have we not determined -- through the lessons of BetaMax, MemoryStick & the "we will block it at the ISP, we will block it at the computer, we will block it at your HD" quote from the VP of ?????? we still wonder why SONY would purposely stop CDR playback?
I was in Chicago for NewYears, I went downtown to see the AIBO at the sony store. I purposely (to help interfere with meme propagation) asked the 'Help Desk' if sony made any DVDs without region encoding ((or switchable regions) knowing full well they had none). His reply "Well - sony has a large interest in the media industry and they are worried about protecting their property - they wont even sell CDRs in their PCs because of this".
It is beyond astonishing that
Surely I cant be the only one NOT surprised at this - didnt we already learn that sony is one of the worst IP fucks on the planet? Is anyone surprised that they would do this? Is everyone reading
Its almost depressing to come to this site and read story after story of how sony (and others) repeatedly act this way -- then we get stories like this one -- Is anyone awake or are they caught in a haze of hyper-info that has obliterated their memory and cognative recolection? Why seek information if you are incapable of learning any lessons from it and adjusting your behaviour? I thought that the
WTF - Am I the only one who remembers anymore????
For those outside the USA, check out the LG 2300 - it'll play *anything* you can throw at it in the media department, except MP3s.
Remember: the Playstation 2 doesn't play VideoCDs at all, in a market where all other DVD players can play VideoCDs.
My Samsung DVD-905 for one - it will play regular audio CD-R's but barfs horribly when presented with a VideoCD.
This sig left unintentionally blank.
Yes I have, and no you can't. Sorry.
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
Most DVD players that don't support CD-R's do so for simple cost and complexity reasons.
The reason the 630nm red laser cannot read a CD-R is simply because the dye is invisible to that spectrum -- CD-R's were designed for 780nm CD drives. However, all DVD players can read CD-RW's -- most do a better job at it than CD-ROM drives.
A normal CD is 70% reflective. A CD-R is 30% reflective. A CD-RW is 5% reflective.
Sony's Dual Discrete optical pickup block has two lasers, one IR and one red. As far as I know, there's absolutely no reason the IR pickup would be capable of picking up CD-RWs but not CD-Rs unless there was some firmware problem/limitation.
You remember how CD-ROM drives a while ago weren't able to read CD-RWs but could read CD-Rs? That's because the firmware didn't know a valid CD could have such a low reflectivity, and assumed there was no disc in the drive (or just plain couldn't read it). However, newer drives will crank up the gain on the photodiode used in the pickup block in order to "see" the very faint reflection from CD-RWs.
I've personally used more than 500 Sony CD-Rs (CDQ-74CN; I buy them by the box of 100 in jewel cases), and they are high quality CD-Rs, but the "XO" moniker is purely marketing hype. Sony CD-Rs are manufactured by Taiyo Yuden and have precisely the same composition of Azo (blue) dye as any other Taiyo Yuden CD-R. (If you don't believe me, get a program that will read the ATIP [absolute time in pregroove] of a CD-R disc, and it will quote the manufacturer as Taiyo Yuden.) Incidentally, Sony CD-RWs are manufactured by Mitsubishi Chemical, if I have my facts straight.
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Adam, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. CD uses infrared (735nm) lasers, and DVD uses red (635-650nm) lasers.
Pressed CDs are 70% reflective, CD-Rs are 35% reflective, CD-RWs are 5% reflective.
Yes, Sony has a "Dual Discrete optical pickup", which is two pickup blocks in one (two lasers, two lenses, two photodiodes). One is IR, one is red.
Blue lasers cannot currently be mass-produced.
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I've got Memorex discs that are gold on top and bright blue on the recording surface. Haven't had any problems with 'em. The CD-RWs are generic CompUSA crap, and they're also fine.