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Borland Kylix Released - Kinda
red_crayon writes: "Borland's kylix -- their port of Delphi (née Borland Pascal),
and, coming later, Borland C++ Builder -- is out.
See Borland's Kylix Web site for more details.
This has been discussed on Slashdot in the past, but it is good
to see that it is finally out.
A kylix is an ancient Greek two-handled drinking cup. Hence,
they keep the Greek theme started with Delphi. And
the two handles are meant to be (???) some sort of symbolism
WRT Win and Linux co-development." It's $999, and this round is actually "pre-order" rather than shipping -- but people have been waiting for this.
OWL died because when MS released NT it took borland forever to get it working. MFC was there and people chose it even though it was hugely buggy at the time (wow I could tell you some horror stories, before numega apparently fixed a bunch of the bugs with testing versions of bounds checker), and MFC was just a huge mess written by a bunch of people who didn't understand OO methodology. The old borland ads with OWL being this pretty bridge in comparison to the messy bridge that was MFC were right on target. I tend to think though that the VCL is OWL version 2. Its more correct, even cleaner and continues to make MFC look like the mess that it is. Christ VC++ is in my opinion equal to Borland C++ 3.1. Borland didn't have the marketing to consider that just because they shipped a graphical resource editor that it was anything like visual programming though.
Seriously, people are into open source for different reasons. Some like the philosophy of everything being guaranteed free(dom) for the duration of copyright law. Some like the safety provided by being able to audit the source code. Some like the opportunity to fiddle around with cool programs. Some just like freebies. Chaos theory shows us that any system that lacks diversity is doomed to instability. The prevalance of Win/Outlook demonstrated this with Melissa et al. Viva diversity.
I've got to jump in here. Everyone's bitching about it costing 1-2 grand, or the fact it's not completely Free (speech) as defined by the FSF. I don't care.
My company develops applications for the corporate market, and the chance to move my code from the steaming heap of shit that is Windows NT, to a nice stable OS is just making me wet my pants here.
$1,999 is CHEAP, I don't care if I can't write GPL software with it, 'cos we don't sell GPL software to our customers. We do get to dictate hardware and OS, and I can see our support burden dropping hugely when we start using Debian as a server platform instead of NT.
Realise that this product is not necessarily targetted at your average OSS developer, but rather at corporate software development houses that want to support Linux platforms. This is good news, any way you play it. And given Borland's history of actually 'getting it', I'm sure you'll soon see a version available cheap (or free!) that the FSF will be 100% happy with.
Just because it's not libre and gratis doesn't mean it sucks.
"But Kylix is free", you say. The problem is, I don't have the source to Kylix, so I don't know if someone has inserted a back door into it. If I can take the source to the compiler and compile it with a different compiler, then I can be pretty sure that the backdoor will be stripped out. After all, they put a backdoor in Interbase, why should we trust Kylix?
I think that this is a treasure to the Linux community because it could only benefit further development of applications. Many apps arent ported over to Linux from the Win32 platform because of time and costs involved. Now that borland has introduced this tool to us, porting a Linux app to Win32 and vice versa should be a snap. The linux community can have great coding done by great win32 developers who were weary about developing for linux platform. This is great! Now that we will be seeing more linux apps and support from other companies that make great win32 software only, this could only increase linux's desktop/server share. I can't wait to get coding with this app.
OK now tag on rent, plus utilities, plus hardware, server space, etc. Then say every developer's station is going to go up $2G.
I can see the wheels spinning: "Or I can buy Visual C++ for less than $500 a head, and sell my product to a much larger market, ensuring my survival."
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
According to this page. Borland will be releasing an "open edition" of Kylix by mid-year. This version will be able to be downloaded (or purchased) for $99--a bit more reasonable than $999.
Looks like they just wanna rip off some Linux-hype/bandwagon corporate folks while they can.
You weren't expecting Kylix for free, now, were you?
$1k/license isn't that much if you can save developer time... the unanswered question is how much (if any) time is saved, whether or not it is buggy and if it is easy to interoperate with other elements of the system, like a database. And if you could do it in another way, like switching to python.
Having something like this around might be very useful for penetration on certain kinds of corporate desktops - those were you have people punching in or extracting data from custom applications.
It's not "plain Pascal" by any means -- it's Delphi (often called Object Pascal).
Even Turbo Pascal had many Borland extensions to the original language. Today, Delphi's Pascal supports nearly everything you'd need (obviously it doesn't support every last C++ feature, but most C++ coders don't use nearly the entire language).
It's very suitable for a RAD environment as well -- the unit approach (as opposed to includes) yields much faster compiles.
The FREE version is scheduled for mid 2001. See this story on LinuxToday.
Other kylix apps don't need wine so why should this one?
Porting speed. Oh, sure, Kylix *could* be written using CLX. but that would take more time.
Are you calling them liars
Liars would be harsh. Misinformed, perhaps.
No kidding.. You guys complain about software and trump Linux pretty heavily but.. I want for a minute to delve into the realm of the hypothetical.
:)
I am not assuming any of this is true just saying what if sto help illustrate what the previous poster said.
Okay I am your average software developer.. If I told my boss this 1000 dollar program would save me 5 hours a week it would be bought for me in an instant.
Why? Because 5 hours a week at over 30 dollars an hour... 5*30=150*4=600 Dollars in one month. In two months of application development the application has paid for itself. Now my employer begins to just simply save money and deliver apps quicker and on a smaller budget. Okay so you still think 1000 dollars is much?? Paying a developer over 70,000 dollars and not giving him tools he/she says will speed up their development even if they are expenisve is throwing money away.
So 1,000 dollars is a drop in the hat when you really think about it. We pay 5-6K a year easily for our MSDN and it saves us money every time.
Okay so.. I know you guys are all sold on free software.. but you have to understand that if you develop a product and it is really good, and it will save people money and or enable them to do something more effeciently you will find that people are willing to pay if the price is right, and usually that price is high enough that you can make a very nice living as a software developer
Rant time.. And.. If everything was free well.. all of the open source developers would find real jobs and the quality of open source would drop, becuase everyone would have to ifnd real jobs and not have time for OS stuff.
Next major rant point, we often hear a whole lot about these cool open source people getting jobs with companies like VA etc, like ERic Raymond and Mandrake etc..
I bet these people literally make up such a small percentage of the developers in the world that its not even funny (That is developers working on free software full time and that is their primary job)
I have no statistics to back this up justwhat ive observed.
Its a lot easier to give something away when you are making good money and dont have anything else like buying food to worry about.
Jeremy
"whaa whaa I want Delphi for Linux for free!"
"whaa whaa I shouldn't have to pay for anything!"
The same people who demand usenet answer their homework questions.
I've used Delphi for years, and I've been told that Kylix looks very similar with some improvments. So drawing on my past experience of Delphi this is what to expect from Kylix. First the language is object pascal which, if you know C++ will be very easy to pick up. Instead of != it uses greater and less then signs, instead of {} it uses begin and end. It has classes which are build up as single inheritance, (but there are ways around that). It has a really nice feature called properties. For example when you assign a number to a class variable, the class can be made to automagically call a functions to handle it. Talk about data hiding. There are also many treasures to be found in the Libraries, and if you get the professional version you get the source for those. Other treasures are found on the web. http://community.borland.com/homepages/dsp is one of my favourites. There you will find components which you can plug into the IDE and use in your own code. It's very powerful and much of it is open source. The IDE is also good. anytime the editor can help you out it does. For example if you are accessing an instance of a class and want to know what functions or data is available, type the instance, and then a period. (the period deliniates class and function the same as in C++). Up will pop a list of the possible things that can be used from the class at that point, the list is shorted to include only those things which are syntatically valid. Another nice feature is function templating. You design a class and fill in 20 or thirty function prototypes (for example). Then hit that magic key sequence ctrl-shift-C and those functions created for you, including parameters and return values. All you must do is the guts. I've been waiting for Kylix for a long long time. I'm looking it as a good way to do gui apps in Linux. I think if Kylix is 1/2 as good as Delphi it will be worth the free download and the $999.
The "open edition" will cost $99 for a packaged version or be available as a free download. This version allows people to create only open-source software under the GPL.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Problem is, the world and his wife are migrating to .Net as fast as their wallets will carry them.
Unless this delphy compiles to MIL (Microsoft Intermediate Language) they haven't got a hope in hell of success.
MIL is Microsofts answer to Java, and (much as I hate to say it) is an extremely cool bit of software.
This was certainly true for old versions of gcc/g++ (in the 2.7.2 days), but one of the goals of gcc-3.0 will be to support 100% of the C++ standard. Current versions (2.95) are already quite close to it, possibly closer than most commercially available compilers.
Sure P4 optimization isn't perfect yet. Try to find a compiler with perfect P4 optimization in the shop.
Some random Kylix related info not mentioned in the summary or directly in the article:
- There will be a version called Open Kylix (or Kylix Open Edition) that will be a free download, or $99 for CD+manuals. This will be intended for use for developing Free/Open Source Software. This won't be available until mid-year though.
- On Borland's Kylix newsgroup, there are rumors that Kylix's IDE uses winelib. This was qualified by saying that the generated applications themselves won't rely on winelib (only the IDE itself will). This kinda scares me a little, but not too much without giving it a chance.
- As mentioned several months ago, CLX will be licensed under the GPL (and probably dual-licensed with another for commercial development). Borland also said that CLX widgets are not real/default Qt widgets, and that they basically are all custom (so a Kylix TButton is NOT a Qt+ button). This is actually good news, since it will make a Gtk+ layer more feasible.
From the Borland online shop:
Windows programs:
Delphi 5 Enterprise - New User - $2,499.00
Delphi 5 Professional - New User - $799.00
Delphi 5 Standard - $99.95
and the Linux stuff:
Kylix Server Developer - $1,999.00
Kylix Desktop Developer - $999.00
If you compare the Windows Delphi 5 Pro and the Kylix Desktop Developer, the difference isn't that big. So this might not be that expensive for companies.
> How many java apps have you downloaded and run lately. [sic, use a frickin' ? dude]
argoUML just yesterday. works pretty good (argouml.org) I _think_ JBuilder 4 is all java.
It works great.
10megs is _nothing_ for a commercial distribution, considering that today a multi-cd application is normal. further, in an intranet environment, I can have total control over what is installed.
> I will NEVER buy a shrink wrapped java app.
OK, well, since you're the ultimate expert on the entire IT industry, you're opinion becomes fact and invalidates everything Java. Riiiiiiiight.
Java has a bad rap for being slow and bloated, held over from the 1.0 days when, being honest, it was pretty shitty. If you actually take the time to learn the language and the dev environment, esp. jdk 1.2+, it's not so bad.
Keep in mind that the greatest software engineering travesties to date have been done in compiled languages (*cough*any MS op.sys.*cough*), so being compiled is no insurance against bloat or sluggardliness.
This is not to say that Kylix isn't cool. Just don't go a-slamin' java if you don't know it.
--
Fuck Censorship.
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Only if they are using a platform supported by Borland. I can take any GPL'd program written with gcc and stand a good chance of making it work on my Alpha (or for that matter my ARM based RiscPC). Will that be the same for GPL'd code written with Kylix?
As a VB developer, I've been dying to have an opportunity to write Linux applications. And I know most of you look down on me with scorn for writing in VB at all, but for RAD 3-tier database access applications VB has outdone them all. It's main limitation (for this purpose) is its dependance on the Windows platform.
I've been following Kylix for quite some now, and it does everything that I need it to start working on the Linux platform without having to learn a "difficult" programming language. Of course... I have to say "almost finally" because it's technically not available yet.
I know that there are licensing issues that people are concerned about, but IMHO the disadvantages are nothing compared with the advantage of having RAD developers (there are a lot of us, you know) able to develop business applications in a hurry on the Linux platform. Hurrah!
-rt-
-rt-
** Evil Canadians are taking over the world. Learn about the conspiracy
Then you've never used delphi.. The compile/link time is rather instantaneous.
I'm sorry that something that could have positive effects like this, at the time of release, needs to have the negative effects pointed out. However, this is one of those times.
Kylix is not free enough to be fully accepted by all of the Free Software advocates. Not by a long shot. The restrictions it imposes, and the corporate control of the language are just non-negotiable to the same people who stayed away from KDE because of the old licensing conditions.
It's been shown that the part of the community who calls themselves the Open Source Community are well disposed to using software which does not meet all of the requirements that some people in our community require their software to have before they put a considerable time investment in learning it and using it.
In order for developers not to fragment this community's software choice, I would have to advise against writing general purpose software for Kylix. It must NOT become a core part of Linux distros.
There is a free download version. You can only write GPL'ed programs with it because it links in code released under the GPL (whose viral nature means it can only be used with free (speech) software; the commercial version comes with a library licensed for both free (beer?) and non-free commercial software) ... I have no problem with that, I applaud Borland for coming up with an interesting way to support free software development while still maintaining some intellectual property.
... which could be used to distribute other non-free commercial software.
This is an interesting combination of Perl's dual license (GPL and Artistic) and the approach Cygnus took. They ported gcc to Windows NT/2000 (it mostly also works on 95/98/ME), and included a GPL'ed C runtime library. (This, plus a bunch of ported GNU software, is Cygwin.) This "infects" your application, so it can only be used to develop free (speech) software. Cygnus also implemented an alternative C runtime library, which they licensed as non-free, commercial software
(Or they used to. A quick search of the Red Hat's site seems to show they now only do this for embedded software.)
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
That's a bargain. A QT development license is $1550. I wonder how much of a cut Borland is getting of that $999.
http://www.trolltech.com/products/purchase/pricing .html
Well, JBuilder 4 (free version on linux w/ sun jdk 1.3, or is it using it's own internal ibm 1.3?) is pretty dang nice. :-) So if you like java, it's a good option. (Forte by Sun is pretty cool too, but it feels kinda sluggish compared to JBuilder. On the third hand I haven't tried it since 1.0, and it's at 2.0 now I think.)
Of course if you don't like java... Well, there is CodeWarrior for (c|c++|java) I think. I've never tried it but it is out there.
--
Fuck Censorship.
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
g++ is a frontend as much as the GCC c compiler, fortran compiler, objective c compiler, chill compiler, etc.
They are frontends to the GNU compiler, which consists of a nifty set of parse trees, a register transfer language (RTL) [a sort-of arch-independant algebraic-pseudo-LLL], optimizers (mostly at RTL level), and an assembler (gas or as, depending on your installation).
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
I really hate to admit it, but the only compiler that seems to implement full support of C++ (including namespaces, templates, et. al.) is MSVC 6. Unfortunately that comes at the cost of being platform specific, and several of the POSIX APIs only implement the minimal spec (e.g. minimal support for NLS, though clearly the platform could handle it -- you have to use platform-specific APIs that have few changes other than the function/method name.)
As to P4 optimization, who cares right now? Until they ramp up the clock speed and drop the price significantly, you get far better bang for the buck with an Athlon/Thunderbird or with dual PIIIs. By the time P4 is worth buying, I'm sure GCC will be doing a pretty good job with the optimization.
As to Borland's compilers, they're good, but I haven't actually used them much. I know how to make things work with MSVC and have current copies of both compilers; I'd rather spend my learning time playing with new kits (qt, kde, gnome, bonobo, etc.) than learning how to make another compiler turn the same code into executables.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Those BSD guys are gonna be pissed.
I didn't pay for my operating system either
it's extremely frustrating that the open-source community can be so open-minded and so close-minded at the same time. people trash kylix for the price tag because they are used to trusty ole vi/emacs/gcc which are free. they don't seem to understand what kylix is and what it offers. the current state of ide's under linux is ridiculous, in that there currently are *none* that i have found. and don't point me towards glade, kdevelop, etc. i am talking a *true* ide, where i can peace together the gui of my application, and in the same environment assign properties and methods to my components, full integrated debugging, etc. why should i have to hand write hundreds of lines of code just to create a gui for my application? i am in charge of programming several projects in my line of work using delphi, and have ached to be able to develop at home on my linux box, but i am spoiled by the things that delphi gives me. i know c and a little perl and c++, but any time i sit down to write a full blown app under linux, i get frustrated at the mundane things i am required to do just to give the application a face. i challenge any of you who say that kylix has nothing to offer the open-source community to code a full gui app in half the time it can be done under kylix/delphi. and as far as the pricing goes, look around at the prices on other full blown integrated development environments like visual studio, etc. comparing kylix to vi+gcc is just ignorant. kylix/delphi is a full solution for application development built around an unparalleled component environment. take a look at www.torry.net sometime, and show me another language with as many components freely available for download. try to be a little more open minded when a company gives the linux community something as powerfull as kylix. there's no reason to take offense to it's presence and price tag. kylix will usher in a new era of development for linux.
There have been a lot more Borland product stories floating around for Linux besides this one, so be sure to harass the BORL guys at LinuxWorld and get some more info to post here ;). A few I've heard are:
- There will be some version of MIDAS (Borland's XML middleware) for Linux, and that could play an important role in next generation versions of Kylix.
- There will be an Enterprise version of Kylix that includes both the Delphi and C++ builder sides in a single, integrated package. This would likely bring MIDAS and Corba support to the table.
- Delphi 6 (the next generation) development on Linux is almost in sync with its Windows counterpart, so the release lag between the two should be very short.
Things I want to know:
- Will this ever be ported to other Unices? Solaris would be great for server side development, and since this is all based on Qt, it'd just be the compiler that needed changes. Obviously, its nontrivial to write a good Sparc compiler for a serious language, but it's a lot easier than rewriting an entire, massive development library AND a compiler.
- Will they start giving away an open edition of Delphi or C++ builder on Windows? They already do it for JBuilder foundation. JBuilder, BTW, is so good that I actually bought the Pro version.
- Will C++ builder have a free, "open edition" for Linux? This could have a huge impact, as you could develop ANY C/C++ GPL app with it. Surely they don't make you include the CLX libraries if you're writing for the console.
- We know that Borland's C++ compiler is incredibly fast at build time (I mean, like an order of magnitude faster than g++ for some programs, though that includes linking + assembling time), and we know it has good standards compliance. But how fast is the output code relative to g++ on Linux?
--JRZ
g++ translates the input C++ code into FORTRAN and uses f77 to generate the actual assembly.
Close, though.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
What happened to /. ? There used to be smart "nerds" who had interesting/decent discussions. More and more everything turns into an off-topic war of mine vs. yours.
This Kylix thing for example; People are all over themselves with how I couda done this in this language, or Perl would solve World hunger (which it very well may -- but's that's besides the point).
Here are my points:
1) Read the article; there will be a free version for download.
2) Eyery language bigot I have ever met starts of with "What can your language do that mine can't?" If you have to ask, you are not worth talking to. Because, the answer is -- very little to nothing.
3)Perl, Python, C/C++ -- all of these do exist on the Windows platform. Yet, Delphi find a comfortable place among them. No, it's not the *most* popular language for Win dev, but so isn't Python. ( Sorry, but I had to say it).
4) It's not about having a language -- there are plenty. It's about having a industrial strength RAD environment on Linux.
5) It's about having a good enough platform that lets you switch from a productive RAD session to a performance tuned server app without managing 20 different code windows. And it's about being able to debug them both at the same time.
6) This is not about language wars.
7) This is not about language wars; stay home.
8) As a professional Windows software developer, who has been playing with Linux since the version 1.0 kernel, price isn't the issue to me. My company pays me 6 figure salaries not because how many languages I know. They pay me because I deliver. And if Lylix lets me deliver -- on Linux -- several times faster than I could before, I would pay the $2000 price without taking a "slashdor moment."
Now back to our regular programming...
do you know nothing?
if you're going to be sarcastic at least get your facts right...
VB: interprets p-code while writing and debugging but compiles to NATIVE CODE.
Smalltalk: Check out the squeek compile via c
Java: interpreted by default but there JITs and also real native code compilers
.NET interpreted MSIL, but compiled to native on first run and on subsequent change.
As if there's something Perl can't do! Psh!
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
As I understand it, there are contractual subsidiaries in foreign countries who would get upset if it didn't go through them.
Here are some important points for everybody that is complaining:
1) They are releasing a free version for download or to buy ($99 for cd and manual by mail). This will be equivalent to what the JBuilder 4 free download is to the JBuilder 4 professional edition.
2) Kylix does not use Wine in any way shape or form. Period.
3) CLX is GPL'ed. A damn smart move.
4) C++ builder will follow in around 6 months. So to all those people who (for some reason are another) are anti-object pascal, this is still a damn good thing.
The only thing I am worried about is compatibility with gcc. Otherwise this is the best thing to happen to linux in a long long time.
Can anybody give me reasons why they won't use it? Do people have a prejudice against IDEs or RADs?
Borland is doing a good thing, and paying attention to what people in the linux community are asking for.
Two points in response:
1. There is a free download version. You can only write GPL'ed programs with it because it links in code released under the GPL - even though the Kylix platform is not all GPL. I have no problem with that, I applaud Borland for coming up with an interesting way to support free software development while still maintaining some intellectual property. I know I'll give the free version a try when it comes out.
2. Given that a good developer costs far more than $1000 a week in salary, then this software is worth getting even if it saves less than a week of development time. If I like the free version of this software and find a use for it, I'm sure my company will buy me a copy.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
There will always be a place in my heart for Borland. The first real programming language I ever learned was Turbo Pascal. The Turbo Pascal 7.0 IDE was the best text mode IDE ever. (It could highlight my code with ease even on my 8088). At the height of MASM's (the Microsoft Macro Assembler) popularity, Turbo Assembler could not only assemble its own syntax (called Ideal Mode), but it could also assemble MASM syntax faster than MASM could itself. TASM even went so far as to emulate all the bugs in all the different versions of MASM! Just thinking about it brings a tear to my eye. Borland, to me, was the Mount Olympus of the Programming Gods. Why has Borland never dominated over Microsoft in the PC compiler market? Two things: Microsoft (of course) leveraged their OS monopoly; and Borland had some shitty management.
We deploy web applications that answer to a PostgreSQL back end. Assuming that it is possible to write PostgreSQL applications (not just MySQL), then this will be a terrific boost. While the core applications are web based, all the administrative stuff is a pain to do web based. Writing all the error checking in Javascript is irratating, and sometimes gets skimped on.
I'm a former VB Programmer (as well as general NT guy who used Linux as a hobby for a few years), and VB was always irritating to do anything useful. C++ Builder was irratating (I'm not a huge C++ fan), by Delphi was interesting to say the least.
Developing quick database applications is gold. Doing them all web based is irratating, and the UI isn't so hot. The ability to let your administrative tools be written as a desktop applications is awesome. While the Windows only version would be adequate, Linux support makes our life easier. Our development environment in Linux, so while we all have Windows computers as well, it's more convenient to have everything in one place.
This, in a work, rocks.
More info: Borland's new app will help developers port their Windows apps to Linux. Hooray! The story can be found on C|Net's News.com website.
The problem with capped Karma is it only goes down...
SIG: HUP
It's not just portability you are paying for--it's super-portability. If my understanding is correct, Kylix allows you to develop applications that will automatically run natively using the widgets of the platform whether it be Windows, Gnome/GTK+ or KDE/QT. I don't know how many people would pay $999 for personal use, but I can definitely see software companies being attracted.
----
Celebrate the finer things in life
While Kylix is very interesting for Delphi users wishing to migrate from legacy OSes i think Black Adder is a better choice for the unix crowd. (It's not OSS tho - but i can understand that theKompany needs to make a living too. They've released tons of Free software, so i don't mind "sponsoring" their Free work with buying other non-Free software)
Not to mention that Black Adder is a much cooler name than Kylix :)
-henrik
Translating everything takes time.
According to eweek (printed version, hence no link), the promise of releasing Kylix has boosted their stock by 35% (Symbol will change to BORL).
Also, they are promising three different versions. A 'server' version, a 'desktop' version, and a free version, that will include GPL'ed versions of the libraries, therby forcing you to write GPL'ed software with it. Sounds pretty decent to me.
(For more information, check out this editorial on the subject at Linux Today.)
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------