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Solar Sails
carpediem55 writes "Reuters is reporting that The Planetary Society (founded by Carl Sagan) is bringing science fiction to life, with a Solar Sail powered by light." But get how they plan to launch it: on a Russian submarine ICBM. The sponsors have a site with more information.
Incidentally, since nobody bothered to mention it - the name of the Solar Sail mission is "Cosmos 1". It's being sponsored by Cosmos Studios, a commercial venture started by Carl Sagan's wife, Ann Druyan. "Cosmos", of course, was the famous PBS series by Carl Sagan - who started the Planeary Society in the first place. So this mission is being undertaken in a sense in memory of Mr. Sagan. Given that NASA wasn't planning to launch a solar sail test for nearly a decade, this seems like a real coup. It's an ambitious plan, and if they pull it off, the Planetary Society really deserves kudos for doing so.
In the town where I was born
Lived a man who sailed to sea
And he told us of his life
In the land of submarines
So we sailed up to the sun
Till we detonated the torpedo of green
And we crashed to the floor
In our Russian submarine
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
And our friends are all on board
Many more dead on the floor
And the water begins to flow!
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
As we gasp and try to breathe
Everyone of us has all we need
Bottle of Stoli, and a pair of jeans
In our Russian submarine.
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
We're All dying in our Russian submarine,
Russian submarine, Russian submarine
Why is that particular point made? Because its Russian, or because it's an ICBM?
Might be because it's being launched from a submarine? Apart from SeaLaunch, how common are satellite launches from sea? I don't know, but I would assume they're not that common (and particularly from a submarine).
-dair
The solar sale does *not* use the solar wind (the ejected ions and other debris from the sun) but rather the momemtum of individual photons of light.
Yep, sorry - the momentum does indeed come from photons.
However, the intensity of light falls off as 1/r^2 from the source, so you wouldn't accelerate too much before you were left floating in space.
I suppose the attraction is that as we're (relatively) close to the sun, it's a nice way to get a boost out of the inner solar system to send a probe to the outer planets. And potentially you could use an artificial source to finish the trip - once your acceleration tails off, keep pushing it with an orbital laser (or just leave it coasting along and accept it'll take longer to get there).
-dair
After hearing the semi-recent news of Russians performing long-range test of their old ICBMs, it's good to hear of people finding another use of them rather than blowing up the White House.
-=e
Here is an article from 1998.
> spacecraft will be operated from the Babakin
> Space Center near Moscow.
This is the first time I have heard of "Babakin Space Center"...
--AP
Does this remind anyone else of Tom Swift and the Cosmic Astronauts?
i c. html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/3712/cosm
This book was printed in 1960! I love how science always seems to find ways of catching up with science fiction!
you can always travel a shorter distance by opening up a wormhole. You mightkill your father before you were conceived, but if you want to go faster than light, you'll have to accept the consequences.
Also, I wonder if anyone with a better understanding of these things could talk about the implications/restrictions implied by a multi-dimensional view of the universe. Like 1) is the theory of relativity a statement of life in 3-space, or does it hold if we can decide to move in time as well? 2) String theory claims that there are 11 odd smaller dimensions. is it theoretically possible to translate a position vector to these dimensions, do a song and a dance, and arrive at your destination in a jiffy?
Wow! Sounds great! Send me the nuclear power source and I'll start working on it right away!
Later,
ErikZ
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
What, 17?
Nick at Night is your friend.
Nenoo nenoo!
So Russia's saying, "Um, we're gonna go into American waters and launch an ICBM from a nuclear submarine. But, um, it's not an ICBM, it's a spaceship. Yeah. And, um, it's not a MIRV, its a, uhhhh, it's a giant space sailboat! Yeah! That's the idea! And we're gonna have to launch a dozen of them, in case one of them doesn't work. Yeah. And, um, we're gonna launch 'em ahhhhh, all at once, to ummmmm save time! Yeah! And the idea came from ahhh, Lionel Richie! No, wait, it came from Carl Sagan! That's the ticket!"
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This is not my sandwich.
I know the original post was most likely a troll but ... ARE YOU KIDDING? Newsflash, the pristine space environment is a freaking vacuum that would kill puppies and kitties without human intervention. If we heretofore power every spacecraft sent up by all the nukes we got, we still wouldn't pump out anywhere near the radiation levels pumped out by the sun. You want to save the space environment, BAN STARS! Yeah, and if wasn't for that damn gravity, all that dust and crap wouldn't make planets on which evil sentient life forms would develop (pop into existence, your choice) who would then bring their evil polluting ways into space. YEAH, DAMN, BAN GRAVITY!
If your concerned about the "environment", be worried about the fact that the polluting effects of putting things into space come from: launch emissions; and getting rid of the payload once its useful life expires. If you really want to save the environment, talk about less polluting launch methods and about holding companies and governments liable for filling the gravity well with shrapnel.
"Oops, you have pushed my critique-of-western-thought button! What is it with 'conquering' everything? We have to 'conquer'the New World. We have to 'conquer' nature. We have to 'conquer' space."
Ok, so Western thought involves a rampant urge to make order from disorder by taking an active role in discovery and learning, this is what you mean right?
But then...
It's unfortunate that the west is so fatalistic.
fatalism:
1.The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.
2.Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.
Yep, that sounds like Western civilization alright, content to sit back and let things take care of themselves. Or wait, isn't that in direct conflict with your earlier observation?
I guess what I'm really asking is what do you have against Western thought?
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crazy dynamite monkey
Thanks...
To each his own I guess, I was only trying to understand your cultural elitism sorry to have rocked your tolerant Eastern boat.
-----
crazy dynamite monkey
Um, so how do you get started in the right direction if the solar wind is blowing in the wrong direction?
My guesses are that you use gravity to slingshot you in the right direction - perhaps I want to go to Mercury which is towards the sun, I first have to sail towards Jupiter, slingshot around it and use the built up speed to drift to Mercury. Sound plausible? Maybe not for humans because it would take too many years, but possible for robots perhaps.
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Sure you can. Set your sail at 45 degrees to the sun, and sunlight hits your sail and reflects off. You get thrust once as the photon hits you, and once more as the photon leaves. Setting your sail at x degrees to the sun gets you thrust at x degrees to the sun. Of course, the steeper your angle, the less sunlight you're intercepting, so the less thrust you get overall. At 90 degrees, edge-on to the sun, you get zero thrust.
It's true , however, that you can't tack in the solar wind. That's the stream of protons blowing off the sun, and those little beasties don't bounce off your sail -- they stick.
You can gain maneuverability by using a launching laser instead of (or as well as) sunlight. You can even use a launching laser at you home star to decelerate at your target star: cut part of your sail loose, and it will blow ahead of you, pushed by launching laser light. Put yourself in the reflected beam from the cut-away portion of sail, and voila, you have light hitting your sail from the opposite direction of your launching laser! (This idea isn't original with me of course; I got it from an essay by Niven or Brin or some such clever person.)
But get how they plan to launch it: on a Russian submarine ICBM
Seems a damn sensible use of surplus (? ;-) ) submarines to me. Kind of a DIY version of SeaLaunch. You could sail a whole fleet of these to the equator to get that optimal launch postion benefit. Surely a cheap way for emerging space nations to get their packages orbital.
(my rant) Seems like a far better use of submarines to me than giving them to the military... mind you reckon that's precisely the reason the big boys will be paranoid about this idea being talked about by the emerging nations...(end rant) :-)
No, I believe all he said was that matter/information could not travel through NORMAL space at faster than the speed of light.
It says nothing about worm holds/warp drive/hyperspace.
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
Your age is showing. ;-)
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
Ummm.....wouldn't NORAD be a little nervous about this?
bun-fhuinneog agam!
The solar sale does *not* use the solar wind (the ejected ions and other debris from the sun) but rather the momemtum of individual photons of light.
However, the intensity of light falls off as 1/r^2 from the source, so you wouldn't accelerate too much before you were left floating in space.
Actually, Ariane launches from French Guiana in South America, not Central America. Cheers!
--
dman123 forever!
--
dman123 forever!
Filtering out the -1s and 0s since 1999.
#3) An ICBM is not designed to loft a large-size payload. A set of MIRVs, while very heavy, is relatively compact.
#4) More to the point, an ICBM is not designed to deliver a payload to space. It is designed to deliver a payload to earth. Why do you think that Alan Shepard's flight lasted only 15 minutes? Because he was sitting on top of a Redstone ICBM.
First of all, the Redstone rocket, used in the first two Mercury missions was not an ICBM, prior to its use by NASA, the Redstone was referred to as the "tactical Redstone," meaning that it was a tactical (deployed on, or close to, the battlefield) rather than a strategic ICBM.
However, both the Atlas rocket, used by John Glenn's and later Mercury flights, and the Titan II rocket used for the Gemini missions were originally designed as ICBMs. The Titan II's on-board computer even included the trajectory necessary to launch a Gemini capsule into space as one of its standard pre-programmed trajectories. To say that "ICBMs are not designed to deliver payloads to orbit" is grossly inaccurate.
To email me,subtract my nick from my email address, starting with the second character. (hint: adto.uiuc.edu is wrong)
Allow me to give you a few pointers.
First of all, you don't need to tack with a solar sail. Once you reach the half-way point you are travelling at an insanely high speed, and you will need to begin the breaking or you'll fly past your target. Thus you turn the craft around and allow the other star to begin to slowly lower your speed by pushing against your sails. A good analogy is "air braking".
Secondly, space is currently THE most hostile environment known to man. It is alternatively extremely hot or extremely cold, and charged with lethal particles from stars and other bodies. We're not even sure we can keep people alive inside space ships for long periods of time without extensive lead shielding. I seriously doubt exploding nuclear bombs in deep space is going to compromise anything.
-17028
I guess what I'm really asking is what do you have against Western thought?
Good question, and I have another: What, pray tell, is this "west" you speak of? Where does it begin? Where does it end? What are its distinct and unique characteristics? How may we identify its citizens?
[irony]
"How like the east to broadly overgeneralize."
[/irony]
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
For only 1 more million they can have the spacecraft shaped as a penguin with huge wings (disproportional to the penguins body) and call it the space penguin.
You can't handle the truth.
Carbon is ever present in plants and animals. Sugars such as fructose, lactose, sucrose et cetera, and other substances in the body contain a measure of Carbon. Would it be possible, then, to produce Carbon structures by organic means? Could we grow a segment of Carbon mesh that is large enough to be versatile or generous enough as to be bound together with other pieces? Perhaps biological spaceships might exist some day, utilizing an organic Carbon structure for a solar sail. It would require great expertise, as most complex life can not survive the vacuum of space, but it might be possible. In a micro-gravitic environment, size would be of little worry. Even if a complex organism was unable to be created, perhaps gigantic measures of carbon sail could be produced by bacteria or viri.
Pax Digitalia
The wind from the sun.
A great story on the topic. It appears in a collection of his, The Sentinel.
Actually, there's a simpler way to do this. What people always forget in these sailing analogies is that space (at least our solar system) is a rotating system. So if you want to go inward, simply turn your sail 45 degrees to the sun to oppose your orbital velocity. Voila -- you fall deeper into the gravity well.
However, for moving outward from the Earth, it may be more efficient to make use of the solar wind than radiation pressure. Tacking against the solar wind it trickier, though.
Quantum mechanics: the dreams that stuff is made of.
I would never be first in that line. After all, the rule says, never buy version 1.0! All those poor suckers are going to GPF into oblivion! Wait for 1.2 at least. :)
...or maybe not.
Space is hardly pristinely pure - it is full of extremely energetic radiation. Outside the Van Allen belts, the contribution of an Orion spacecraft would hardly be noticed. Inside is a different story; it could get really nasty down here if Orions lifted off the surface.
"God bless Saint Liebowitz!"
--The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese
Some of the wierd effects of sub-sub-atomic particles are that they just *are* here and then the next 'moment' (however you want to define time, but just as long as they aren't at different points at the same time) they *are* someplace else with no real path between the two points.
It might seem that there is infinite velocity, but because they didn't actually have a path between the points, there isn't a velocity at all.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Even then you wouldn't have a velocity faster than light, you'd just go from one point to the next with no apparent (from a spectators point of vew) path between them. From your point of view you would have traveled a much shorter distance at a normal velocity than conventional means would have allowed.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
It's mostly because the Russian government will do it from a sub for dirt cheap. They need the cash and have not use for the ICBM. :)
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
observe how it gets thinner as it expands
compare it to a pokey stick.. still the same thickness as you push it...
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
you can still point to windward, but you won't go there,
to do it seriously try it in a scow where the hull doesn't perform and keel-like function
you won't get very far.
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
They are probaly using a submarine because you can move the submarine to an equatorial area to launch the missile.
This reduces the amount of power needed by the rocket, since the higher rotational speed of the earth at the equator gives the rocket a boost.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that a solar sail had to be a little bigger in order to carry a decent payload. Or is this just a proof-of-concept sort of thing? If they can make this sail material in bulk it could have thousands of appplications. It would be nice to be able to send out a probe to Jupiter using only a low-cost sail. This would free up more money and resources for building the actual probe, you don't have to design around large fuel tanks. This material also seems good for laser propulsion, which could get us around the solar system an beyond pretty quickly. Perhaps with the new technologies and discoveries(like the meteorite that show good evidence of previous life on Mars) the world will get its butt in gear and put some serious effort toward space exploration.
Enigma
Enigma
Nope. You use whatever means you find convenient to escape Earth orbit, so you're in solar orbit at the same distance as the Earth. Then use the solar sail to reduce your orbital velocity. All you need to do is position the sail at an angle to your orbit, so the resulting force is antiparallel to your orbital velocity. Your velocity decreases, and gravity does the rest.
Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
I guess it's not a solar sail, but it would give you some propulsion.
Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
I'm just waiting for the sky to be littered with Skyhooks... private residences and hotels that constently orbit the planet, powered by the same technology as this "solar sailboat". From the StarWars Universe, of course. I am glad to hear that the private sector is finaly getting into action, NASA has had little success although I am very excited about ISS.
Not yet suitable for anything more fragile than rock/ore/steel.
Poor little Moties, heh. Now there would be a culture that the word "fatalism" properly describes... and a planet that better exemplifies "despoiled".
Not only did they use a solar sail, but they also powered it for a number of years with a massive laser (so powerful that humans living in the destination solar system saw the Moties' star change color while the laser was on). A character later commented that this was like being able to leave your engines at home. A neat trick if it worked, eh.
I guess the next step up in travel is leaving yourself at home, e.g. Genesis Quest: Giant lasers not enough for you? How about modulating a star..
"The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life"
We have already despoiled our own planet so utterly; we should keep space in its pristine purity.
You do realize space is awash with radiation from various sources right?
the laser would not lose intensity (1/r^2) like the Sun's radiation does. As long as the beam is not blocked/refracted/etc by "stuff" in between, the laser should work essentially forever.
"Fifty million Americans can't be wrong," said Rep. Billy Tauzin. Gore - 50,999,897 Bush - 50,456,002
... Robert Forwards innovative designs coming to reality. Now all we need to do is build his solar powered lasers to provide acceleration and decceleration and send one the sails to Europa or Titan. If you have no clue to how much of Robert Forward's ideas can change the world, read any of his books (considered HARD science-fact/fiction). All of his concepts are based in true physics and theory.
I don't drink because I have to, I drink to stop the voices in my head!
So, is there any group that's seriously working on magnetic mass-drivers for the surface-to-space segment of things?
Dang, now I'm going to have that theme running through my head all day.
Hope they remember to disarm it first.
Asikaa
Asikaa
Come in, twenty-seventy-seventy, your time is up.
You need a more maneuvourable (sp?), or faster reacting, engine for that when it comes to landing...
What, you've never heard of tacking?
No relation to Happy Monkey
"Oh we are very sorry Mister President, how are we to know it was targeted at a major city instead of up....yes the fallout will be a problem. Again humblest apologies...sucker"
"Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi"
Besides, Einstein did not prove that travel faster than light was impossible. He merely proved that travel *at* the speed of light was impossible.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
In other words, it's not staying up there. A orbital test that will last for days, weeks, or months is scheduled for later in the year.
Solar-sails (and maser sails) are very exciting because they are true interstellar drives, powered by photons that can be generated in stars or by lasers and masers.
Maybe it doesn't.
Maybe it just dumps the "drive" at that point and coasts.
We ar going zhou launch zhee experiment. Da, push zhee red button, Vladimir. No! Njet zhat red button!
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
MM
WHY: To conduct the first solar sail flight and demonstrate the technique for traveling between planets -- and someday, to the stars.
There's always sufficient, but not always at the right place nor for the right folks.
"...we should keep space in its pristine purity."
Excellent excellent work. The entire post is perfectly believable and the illogical hook follows naturally.
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Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)
Of course, no one has any concrete proof that things travel faster, but it may be that those folks who think they sent massless particles faster than light actually caught some inderect evidence of objects on the other side of the barrier...maybe.
Maybe they are just full of the shite.
"I like to wear big boy pants."
Combine it with a long burn ION drive and you'll find yourself moving pretty damn fast in a very short period of time.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Erm... just to point out a few mistakes.
1. Einstein did not prove his theory of relativity
2. In relativity it is only impossible to *accelerate* past the speed of light. Tachyons (particles that travel faster than light) are theoretically possible.
3. 20 years seems a bit low. A human brain would need about 4 million Terabytes of disk space at the absolute minimum. Plus Heisemburgs Uncertainty priciple starts to come into play at brain cell level.
4. The singularity is a nice idea, and may very well be true, but I would think is unlikely to happen in any less than 100-200 years.
5. The best way (IMHO) would be to find a more energy efficient way of bending space-time, rather than travelling really fast. Besides, even if we could travel at the speed of light, it would still takes years of earth time to travel to the stars.
blow me
Yum
Wait just a minute there...
If in fact ICBMs are indeed designed to deploy a payload into orbit, please tell me which of the following missiles can, _without modification_ deliver an orbital payload, versus a sub-orbital, weapons trajectory payload (i think these are all of the current US ICBMs):
Trident D-5
MX
Minuteman3
To deliver a payload to low or high-earth orbit is considerably more difficult than delivering payloads along a parabolic sub-orbital trajectory. Do you somehow think that these missiles deliver their MIRVs while orbiting around the earth?
NO. In fact, the prime mission of these missiles is to deliver their payloads as quickly as possible, i.e. by minimizing y-axis movement and staying as close to the earth as possible. Think about it: the higher up they go, the longer the burn time==more time to detect and react to the missle firing.
Just because the space program used heavily modified ICBMs to deliver orbital payloads does not mean that an off-the-rack ICBM can do it (unless you consider the Titan IV an ICBM, in which case you might as well throw an h-bomb in the payload bay of the space shuttle).
"Chill, Orrin!"---Trent Lott
Einstein proved mathematically that nothing with mass can travel faster than the speed of light. Hence, the M (mass) in E=MC2 It's a fact, live with it.
The (Hopefully) Great Slashdot Blackout Apr 21-27
Let's just hope they fire the right ICBM, and not one that's aiming for us.
I have always thought, that while this might be a decent way to power some *VERY* slow moving or stationary space station, it's not that practical for planetary travel, or even interplanetary travel. You need a more maneuvourable (sp?), or faster reacting, engine for that when it comes to landing, emergency procedures, etc.
Its odd because they are using a submarine to launch something into space. It makes a lot of sense, i just don't think its ever been done before. I might be wrong about that though. Oh yeah, and that whole thing about a device that was designed to destroy cities is now being used for exploration.
Turning swords into plowshares...boring. How about turning missles into spacecraft. Now that rocks.
Its just a metaphor.
Who said there was anything wrong with soviet technology.
That still doesn't invalidate the general case for sea launches though...
Actually I bothered to reread the release, and in this case the Barents Sea makes more sense than Baikonur because it is further north, as they are launching it to a near polar orbit. I guess my argument for sea launches should have said that it allows the use of a launch site that better fits the mission, rather than specifically launches that benefit from near-equator launches.
As someone else pointed out to me, they are actually launching from the Barents sea, north of Murmansk. But that's likely because they are launching to a near polar orbit. So you're right that they're likely saving fuel, allthough not from the rotational speed of the earth. But I agree that for most customers, launching from equator is probably a major cost cutting factor with using the submarine launcher.
you, sir, are a space hippie. do you have dirty feet?
I think it should be more like: "a private U.S. group of rich guys that has nothing to do, said on Monday.......".
I mean.. what the hell are they trying to do.. Spend 4$ dollars to.. prove it's possible? follow they're favorite science fiction novel? feel cool?
Well, good luck.
I like work. I can sit and watch it for hours.
Bill Gates Has No Penis.
How the Communist Russians must be laughing up there sleeves. The capitalist superpower reduced to relying on Soviet technology.
Its incredibly ironic.
Conspiracy! Russian ICBM? Where will they launch? This is very "Red Dawn"ish i.e. Panamanian commandoes jumping from commercial airliners.
They won't be using an ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile), they will be using a SLBM (sea-launched ballistic missile).
This Britannica article gives some general info on the subject and the differences between the two.
Details are important!
Sufficient cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice.
FYI This month's New Scientist has an interview with Nersi Razavi who has his own solar sail project underway, estimated test launch date 2005! Check it out... here .
How does one go about getting a nice russian submarine from which to launch such a payload-carrying device? More importantly, where does one get an ICBM, ah well.
I doubt there's anyone in any field of science that hasn't read a book that included solar sails and been at least slightly overcome by the coolness of it. This should be one of the few space projects that has pretty much universal support from the community.
That is, if they can prove that it works.
This propulsion technology is obviously not intended to be the sole means to move a vehicle from one location to another. But it is very efficient in long-distance travel.
Just because you have a solar sail to propel you from location A to location B, doesn't mean you cannot also have some sort of fuel based thruster device to maneuver your vehicle at the local space-station dock or whatever.
-=e
While that's all well and good, I couldn't care less if a pseudo-me sees the wonders of the universe. I will still be stuck on this little ball with nothing to do but pust on Slashdot.
Seriously, I have the same ideological problem with the transporters on Star Trek. I cease to exist while my doppleganger continues to live my life, play with my kids, etc. I mean, I have nothing against potential digital clones of myself- I'm sure we'd get along well- but I would receive no benefit whatsoever from the donation of my neural patterns.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
> Although facinating to consider, it seems that a solar sail would be of limited use for a two way trip. A solar sail powered spacecraft can't tack against the 'wind' like a sail boat on the ocean is able to do.
s /i ntro/tacking.html
Actually it can, sort of, since the sun's gravity acts in the opposite direction to the solar wind and your ship is going to be in orbit about the sun, by angling the sails appropriately you can move to a closer orbit, as well as a more distant one.
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~diedrich/solarsail
If you are using an interstellar solar sails, possibly read "destination star" for "sun" at the far end - alternatively see
http://www.forwardunlimited.com/pdf/tp069.pdf "Roundtrip Interstellar Travel using Laser Pushed Lightsails" (yes, you can use an Earth based laser for the return journey, and you don't have to tack into it).
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rant
Well I'm not terribly into astronomy, so I don't follow sattelite launches much. I have no idea why launching from a submarine would be desirable, so yes, I find it curious. Maybe because there simply are more ICBMs that are available to the public in subs than on land (if any), but everything else being equal, it seems to me, that costs should be lower on land than from a submarine.
The first U. S. satellite was launched from a converted ICBM -- the Redstone booster.
People always forget about those other two guys... kinda like Apollo 11. Everyone remembers Neil Armstrong, some people remember Buzz Aldrin (probably because he has a cool name), but who remembers Michael Collins?
Your reply illuminates the presumption that anything unconquered is by definition "disorder". This is exactly what I'm talking about. "Discovery and learning" does not necessarily equal conquering and vice versa.
Generally the mindest of "Western civilization".
"fatalism:
1.The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.
2.Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable."
Yup, things sort of suck when one's whole world-view revolves around the belief that humanity is an imperfect creation, that nothing really worthwhile in this world can be done, except to work hard and resignedly hope for a better afterlife. A subconscious drive for some abstract concept of "progress", coupled with an ultimate resignation, I think leads us to strive very hard without purpose, exploiting for immediate gain. What shall we "conquer" after space?
"I guess what I'm really asking is what do you have against Western thought?"
Besides the dogged persistence to always want to conquer some new thing for the holy grail of some undefined "progress", nothing really. But I'm sure I can always be assured of some knee jerks in the Slashdot crowd. (Sober introspection about our mad rush to develop and conquer? What you say?!)
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
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Very cool story -- even though I won't move solar sails from my "Vaporware" until I actually see one in outer space...
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
- Our current probes are already slow. They are limited by the kick that chemical-fuel boosters can give them, and then have to coast or run complicated gravity-assist trajectories to get to their targets (does VEEGA mean anything to you?). Solar sails can be much faster.
- We can use solar sails on the missions we are doing now, to get more science out of them. Consider the NEAR mission. This mission is at an end because the NEAR craft is out of fuel. If it had only required fuel for small but rapid changes in velocity and instead relied on a solar sail for cruising thrust, it would be on its way to another rock. And then another, and another.
- Because solar sails can produce thrust without expending any mass on a more or less indefinite basis, they are one of the big enabling technologies for real exploration and colonization of the solar system.
Clear enough? If the sails are laser-propelled, your cargo vessel could be both smaller and faster over long distances than anything which propels itself only with fuel it carries. Even without laser propulsion, the sails have many uses which do not involve hauling people around. These uses include propelling the probes to locate resources or other points of interest, and hauling the supply stockpiles for people to use when they arrive. The cargo travels by slow boat, the people travel by express.--
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
This is beyond cool, and I hope this works out. Not only is this a hopeful new technology for space travel, but I get a kick out of how it's being launched from a converted ICBM -
Turning swords into plowshares...boring. How about turning missles into spacecraft. Now that rocks.
And to think, this will be the first. I hope NASA gets off their ass if this works. Typical that something so experimental, hopeful, and daring had to come from private funding and not from NASA.
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ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
Never ceases to amaze me that people are insisting on physical sails for solar sailing, given that there are a slew of problems to contend with. Furthermore, the mission profile simply calls for a deployment test and minimal motion (no plans for a planetary or extrasolar mission).
Using an M2P2 (Mini-Magenospheric Plasma Propulsion) drive would be a much better choice, because in addition to the lack of launch mass (expensive!), you don't need to worry about deployment problems, and can then think about actually doing some science instead of a publicity stunt. More on M2P2 here and here.
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But you do have to admit he/she is improving. It took a line or two today before it was off topic. :)
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It wasn't necessary to prove anything beyond that. An object can't travel at a given speed without first accelerating to that speed (quantum mechanics aside; we're talking about spaceships here).
Reading the various accounts it seems clear that the major objective seems to be testing teh deployment of a large, lightweight structure using inflatable tubes. I'm a bit surprised that they aren't aiming for more than a minor boost in orbital attitude from solar pressure.
Still, I've often wondered why there aren't more space installations based on inflatable structures. You could build a collosal laboratory in space out of some sort of plastic sandwich (to make it self-healing from micrometeor hits). A structure larger than a football stadium could fit in the shuttle bay and inflated in orbit. You probably wouldn't want to live in one of them (radiation shielding), but you could certainly do materials science and agricultural experiments in one of them. Heck, you could make a giant inflatable wheel and spin it for "artificial gravity"
But there is another way. Instead of travelling faster, we just need to travel subjectively faster. I anticipate that in 20 years time we will have the technology to upload or mindfs into computers, and send digital proxies to the stars, using solar sail technology.
Of course, the travel time would be thousands of years, but subjectively speaking it would be instantaneous.
As Einstein irrefutably proved that travelling faster than the speed of light is utterly impossible, some sort of adjustment of our subjective timeframes is the only solution to interstellar travel.
When the singularity comes, as predicted by Vernor Vinge, I shall be among the first to upload. That way I shall be at an advantage, and may perhaps be able to ascend to the stars on light sail technology.
Speaking as a transhumanist, I must say that I consider it eminently possible, even probable, that these technologies will develop in the way I have outlined.
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You know exactly what to do-
Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-
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I am involved in a space project, and we have selected this same launcher. It simply is the cheapest one around at the moment. The Makeyev corporation (designer and builder of the thing) and/or Russian navy have some 200 (I beleive) decomissioned ones left over since the START-I (or -II) treaty. These missiles have to be destroyed, and the simplest way to do this is by launching them. Then, why not put something useful on it? Note that the original launcher is not capable of launching something into orbit as far ads I know. Here, they use a solid-propellant kick stage to achieve that. And about launching from subs; I'm not quite sure why they do that, probably something political involving the navy, missile ownership and free launch training, buit it has been done before. Some German microsats were launched on a Shtil (a larger version of Volna) from a sub in '98 or '99. A number of suborbital microgravity missions have been flown with this Volna.
I'm reminded of The Mote in God's Eye and the poor little Moties trying to escape their planet on a solar sail powered craft.
Although facinating to consider, it seems that a solar sail would be of limited use for a two way trip. A solar sail powered spacecraft can't tack against the 'wind' like a sail boat on the ocean is able to do. However, I find the lack of harmful byproducts to be an appealing advantage for solar sails.
Sailing was the most environmentally healthy way mankind ever developed to traverse large distances, and it seems appropriate that the same techniques be adapted to space travel. I am disturbed when I hear reports of engineers speculating on the construction of atomic weapon powered space craft, or such. We have already despoiled our own planet so utterly; we should keep space in its pristine purity.
This is precisely the sort of work that scientists and engineers should be engaged in. Rather than just asking what we can do, we should ask what we can do cleanly and well, without causing more of an impact to our environment than necessary.
- qpt
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Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.
Normal sized spacecraft in Earth orbit have to correct their position and attitude for the effects of solar pressure, along with other disturbances from gravity gradients and residual atmosphere. The solar influence is usually small, we are talking about micro-Newtons, but because the duration is long, it can have a significant affect. Since the largest component area-wise of most satellites are the solar arrays, which are normally about 20 m x 1 m x 2 (satellites are normally symmetrical to avoid rotational disturbance torques) they only have an area of around 40 m^2, compared to over 700 m^2 for the solar sail proposed. I'd suggest this is more than big enough for a proof-of-concept vehicle!
But get how they plan to launch it: on a Russian submarine ICBM.
Why is that particular point made? Because its Russian, or because it's an ICBM? Neither seem overly unusual to me. Russians have a good deal of expertise when it comes to space technology, arguably more so than the US. And using an ICBM kinda makes sense. I believe they've been bandying this idea around for quite a few years.
The tubes wouldn't have to be that strong if only small pressures are used inside of them. Because space is essentially a vacuum, you can use a very low pressure inside the tubes to accomplish the same thing. It's the difference in pressure that matters.
"...Solar Sail powered by light."
Homer: So, they have solar sails powered by light now.
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It seems that this point was made because this is highly unusual:
#1) It is a Russian weapon system.
#2) It uses a submarine as a launch platform. How many satellites get launched from submarines?? That is extremely unusual.
#3) An ICBM is not designed to loft a large-size payload. A set of MIRVs, while very heavy, is relatively compact.
#4) More to the point, an ICBM is not designed to deliver a payload to space. It is designed to deliver a payload to earth. Why do you think that Alan Shepard's flight lasted only 15 minutes? Because he was sitting on top of a Redstone ICBM.
So yes, it is overly unusual.
"Chill, Orrin!"---Trent Lott
Pretty nifty.. But I have a couple of problems/questions..
It says that the sail is only 30m in diameter. I was under the impression (from reading Omni magazine and Larry Niven, admittedly not the most reliable of sources) that one needed a sail of huge (kilometers) size to be able to get a noticeable boost from the solar sails. Also, the article says that they're using inflatable tubes to unfurl/stabilize the sail. IANAP (IANA Physicist) but wouldn't that make those inflatable tubes have to be tremendously strong to be able to survive in the low-pressure environs of space?
Those thoughts aside... It's pretty cool. And I wish I could launch my girlfriends cat out of a goshdarned ICBM tube.
Brant
Brant
Argle. Bargle.
Norad: Umm... We just detected a ICBM launch from the Russian submarine Smirnof.
Kremlin: Not a problem, comrad! Is just launch of solar-sail you may have been reading about on slashdot.
Norad: Okay... Umm... Our projected trajectory puts it landing in Washington, DC.
Kremlin: Is normal! It will separate at high altitude and booster will fire sail into space. Missile will fall harmlessly into Atlantic.
Norad: Okay... Umm... The ICBM appears to have landed in the capitol, exploded, and wiped out our entire government...
Kremlin: Is this a problem, comrad?
Norad: No, not really. Just commenting.
The enemies of Democracy are
But get how they plan to launch it: on a Russian submarine ICBM.
(Jump forward 4 years, under the sea, in a Russian sub.)
Weapons Officer: Missile number five has been launched. That's one small step for man, one giant-
Captain: Gustov! You mean missile number nine, right?
Weapons Officer: Shazbot!
I was fortunate enough to be in Russia several years ago (as part of a NASA contract) and got to meet and work with Professor Vladimir Syromyatnikov, the father of the Solar Sail, who is one of the most gracious and intelligent men I have ever met. He is truly a brilliant mechanical engineer. His genderless docking collar design is a work of poetry in steel.
The good professor was kind enough to invite me up to his apartment one day to talk over lunch and meet his wife and family.
I often think about that afternoon and in particular, one corner of his living room where his television set was placed. There, atop the tv was a VCR and yup, you guessed it, the clock was blinking "12:00". To this day, whenever I need to assess my own failings, I just remind myself "Even Rocket Scientists can't do everything".
You can email the professor at:
vladimir.syromyatnikov@rsce.nasa.ru
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
Space.com has more on the subject here.
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