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Tux in Space
Anonymous Coward writes "In between all the bad news about Linux it's nice to see some good like this story about Linux getting used by NASA for satellite control I saw on NewsForge. It is on Linux Today too. This is not some garage dream but a real NASA project run by a real rocket scientist. Does ThinkGeek sell 'Tux in Space' T shirts yet? I want one!" NASA has a page for FlightLinux.
The original was Mirosoft - that's inflation for you.
BlueCat looks like a nice embedded development system and probably excels in that area. It would undoubtedly be suitable for a PDA or an appliance. But it isn't a real-time system. And you need that for flight control.
For reference of what we were looking for, our application is a flight control computer for a model aircraft. Among our criteria was "hard real-time" (stringent timing tolerances on OS response to interrupts. Milliseconds matter. Consistent response times matter.announcedannouncedannounced) An unmodified Linux kernel has some real-time features, but only "soft real-time" which isn't good enough for flight software. So we looked at a number of systems including RTLinux, TimeSys and MontaVista which do offer hard real-time extensions to Linux.
We selected MontaVista's real-time scheduler and kernel-preemption patches because they offer hard real-time without losing access to the POSIX interfaces of Linux. TimeSys also fit that description but MontaVista was better documented and more recently updated (including one in LWN this week.)
I'm surprised that the FlightLinux project didn't have hard real-time criteria at least somewhat similar to ours.
Mind you, in my opinion (as an AirMISR user) they would have been better off using a real RTOS...
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
"In between all the bad news about Linux..."
What BAD news?
Co-founder and designer at Music Nearby: http://musicnearby.com
'Linux is only free if your Time has no value.'
I really don't need to say more.
And yes, I *am* running Linux right now.
Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
Why the rip on garage dreams? We all know a lot of useful things have come out of a pipe dream and a garage. Witness Apple, etc...
While NASA using Linux is very good, when will they trust it enough to use it as the primary OS for the main computers operating the Space Shuttle and the International Space Station? After all, extreme reliability of the software is very important for such applications, and I'm not sure if Linux with its current 2.4.x kernel has passed NASA's extreme requirements for such applications.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
You are incorrect. As a spacecraft thermal engineer, I use radiation and linear conduction as the primary method of heat transfer. What you are thinking about is convection, which requires gravity (and air).
You would still have cooling with the presence of air, but not as much. Plus, for a long science mission, your air will eventually leak out. This is the cheap and dirty method used by Russian engineers, but they have to replace their satellites more often.
I don't know the software (or hardware for that matter) causes of heat dissipation, but I typically have different operating and standby modes to design for. I doubt Linux and provide anything different than currently being used. The only possible benefit I can think of is using slower clock speeds to accomplish the same task as other embedded systems, which means less power, which means less headaches for me. As far as APM goes, it can be a benefit, but a little one. Heaters are often controlled to make up the difference in peak power modes and nominal modes or standby modes.
Good luck with the project, I'm sure it will benefit it the industry!
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
This is my only Slashdot account, and always will be. And no, I didn't tell all my friends about the posting and ask any with mod points to mod me up. If they demonstrated such low integrity they wouldn't be my friends for long.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
I'm just waiting for all the BSD people to come out, proudly displaying the chips on their shoulders, and decrying NASA for having picked such a non-free, unstable OS as Linux when BSD was perfectly available and they wouldn't have been forced into not making a profit on the spacecraft.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
This has been in use for some time, I believe you can find on nasa's webpage the spacelinux project that talks about the tests they did on their docking system that is linux based and using moo-tiff libraries.
Although, NASA's choice for linux isn't really a noble one.... they're just trying to save money. Hopefully it will prove to them that Linux and BSD should have been implimented years ago.
The fun thing is, we are now damn sure it wont be NT on the next mars lander, nor on any probe or space vehicle launched... In 500 years, will historians talk about the serious and toy Operating systems in a way that smacks in the face of today's experts?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Umm wrong, the laptops have not been usually thinkpads, They usually have been gridpads made by the GRID corperation. Touch or pen based computers that are ruggidized for government and space use (inside of case is metalized and screen has a metalization to keep emissions inside). Look closely at most of the shuttle photos, you'll see GRID on that computer(1980-1997).
some astronauts bring their own computers IF they are allowed by mission control and pass special tests.
sadly GRID has gone, now they use whatever laptop or pen based computer (the favorite of the astronauts) they can get modified by the manufacturer to pass their requirements. (I believe they were looking ad Dauphin Orasis pen computers last.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Thus is Microsoft's greatest chance for increasing NT's uptime lost. Given that the typical spacecraft sees sixteen sunrises every 24 hours, MS would have been quite justified in saying that NT was able to stay up for a hundred days without bluescreening.
And if this OS is for use on spacecraft, shouldn't it be called floatlinux? I'll concede that FreeFallLinux probably wouldn't go over too well.
I mean, this is great and all, but it's just another internal nasa project....
Linux is no better suited to what they are doing than any number of other embeddedy RTOS. It's probably no worse than some, either.
saying it's special... it's not. It's a kernel, and there are many kernels available for embedded work, each with strengths and weaknesses. Linux's strength is it's openness. To claim it's 'more able to deal with the harsh radiation of space becasue it runs cooler because its halts the processor for brief times' is rediculous.
especially because in space, no one can hear your screen...
- Microsoft to unveil
.NET software for non-Microsoft platforms
- Defense Department plans 512-processor Linux cluster
- A 'free' interview with Linus Torvalds by CNN
- Linux looms on the mainframe horizon
Just wondering why all the doom and gloom. It's a great time to be a Linux-head!Or, were you refering to the fact that Linux companies which were riding the tech wave without real business plans are getting hit just like everyone else? Companies who were relying on the stock market to make them profitable are going by the wayside, but I think the Linux industry is here to stay. Companies like IBM and Motorola will continue to see huge returns from their Linux investments. Countries like Mexico will continue to use it. But, most of all, the companies that did have business plans and did plan on becoming profitable will have a fighting chance just like any startup businesses.
Disclaimer: I'm a VA/Linux stockholder, so I may be biased on some of this.
I don't want to spoil all the fun but I can't help but laugh when I see someone noticing a story about how Linux is used in some space related case and immediately everyone is talking about how Microsoft is going to die and how this is a sign of how superrior open source is.
Guys.. There have been laptops on just about every shuttle flight so far, for use in various tasks. The laptops have usually been IBM thinkpads and the OS has usually been NT. The fact that someone is using Linux is nice, but it doesn't prove shit - one way or the other. All the other thousands of satellites in space use something else, you know...
It's the same when ONE city in ONE country (Mexico) decides to install Linux on both of their computers and it deserves a news here and a discussion with several hundreds of enthusiastic posts about world domination. Meanwhile, I'm sure Microsoft had hundreds of installations of Windows 9x / NT / 2k elsewhere in the world.
Now I have nothing against Linux - I develop software for it at work as a matter of fact - but I'd like to see some realism and balance in the news here. I don't know about the rest of you but I'd like to read "news for nerds, stuff that matters" - not just braindead pro Linux propaganda that isn't anchored in reality.
From the linux in space page:
Software portability is of vital importance for upgrades and applications enhancement. Portability among UNIX flavors can be done quickly, preserving expandability and keeping manpower costs down. This is not true for other non-UNIX operating systems.
A 'certain other company' ahem.. has spent years ensuring incompatibility between products to tie you into theirs, then make you upgrade regularly. It's very nice to see this policy backfiring on them in a high-visibility market space I'm sure they'd like to 'own' too.
EZ
"Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
_ _ _
I was working on a flat tax proposal and I accidentally proved there's no god.
_ _ _
I was working on a flat tax proposal and I accidentally proved there's no god.
This isn't really anything new. NASA has been using Linux for quite sometime (save budget money) and not only that but Linux has been into space before this. Specifically in 96-97 (can't remember) where they sent a linux based machine in orbit that monitored plants. Linux Journal covered it.
What I really want to see now is a robot that goes to mars with a signal of kernelcode on an audio dat. It'll emit a signal into a large mountain and finally we will know that we are not alone. Of course that vital code will be most likely from the Linux kernel. Try shooting some NT code at the mountain and you could be dead!!
"Chuck" the Demon, a play on daemon, is or has been associated with all the BSD's (at least those with BSD in their name), including OpenBSD.
OpenBSD has had a few different mascots which is kinda cool as they choose new artwork.
There's been an old rendered demon, the more familiar Chuck demon, a large devilish cop with a root burglar as his foe, the blowfish with a script kitty as his foe (along with some other pathetic fish that get eaten probably going by the names of Bill and Steve), and keeping with the blowfish theme, we've got a Japanese anime style blowfish who just does'nt cut it up against my favorite, the devlish cop.
Still, you're right, Chuck should'nt be associated with OpenBSD firstly, he should be associated with BSD in general.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
ok, I stand corrected
ok, I made a mistake in terminology :-)
;-)
my apologies, "Darnnit Jim, I am a software guy, not a thermal engineer!"
still, the Heat/Power issue is a minor one and would only be a nice side effect, if it even makes a difference (remember we have not actually made any sort of tests yet!)
(it is times like this that one wishes he could go back and make a minor edit to a slashdot post)
oh well
Chris
let me answer a few question...
PAZware "Dont they usaly write an independant os for satilites and telescopes and such?"
no, normally Sattelites use Propritary, COTS Embedded system like VxWorks
mindstrm "To claim it's 'more able to deal with the harsh radiation of space becasue it runs cooler because its halts the processor for brief times' is rediculous."
we never said that, we have not done any testing but because of the cooling APM features in the kernel it might be better. The problem is, in space heat does not radiate away from components. in order for heat to radiate, it must have air to radiate with, no air and you need to design a cooling system to keep the CPU from overheating. (like when you overclock, and the air circulation is not enough to keep the CPU cool, guess what, we have the same problem, we're not overclocking, but there is no circulation, so we need to find other ways to keep systems cool. the APM Idle functions in only one little but that might help reduce the need and expense for other cooling.
I_redwolf "Linux has been into space before this. Specifically in 96-97"
yes, Debian has been known to fly on a laptop on the shuttle, BUT a Linux system has never been in control of crucial systems, like that of Command and Control, that is one of our goals
papskier "Now we've got astronauts' lives dependent on linux."
if we weren't currently working on flying unmanned sattelite missions. currently not yet, there are no manned missions using Linux in crucial areas. but that may very well change, and I'm sure when we send men to Mars, and the Computers running those systems are based around Linux 4.2.19 you will be the first to know
RayChuang "While NASA using Linux is very good, when will they trust it enough to use it as the primary OS for the main computers operating the Space Shuttle and the International Space Station?"
that will probably not happen, at least not for a while. Both the Shuttle and ISS are in deployment, meaning that the systems onboars have gone through years of development and testing. You will not see any major change of OS' in most existing systems, (imaging if you spent five years and millions of dollars developing an in house application that runs perfect on Solaris, would you change to Linux or BSD at the drop of a hat? no.) However, you may start seeing Linux in use on new systems.
Sarin "I hope they will give us the sourcecode of the programs they run on that machine, but I don't bet on that. Perhaps we will find out they actually use it to run a slightly modified version of lm-sensors!"
of course! this is Linux, Linux is under the GPL, nothing is available for download yet. currently what we have running is based on Lynuxworks BlueCat, and is really a simple "Hello World" (it's reall not very impressive yet, but we are taking baby steps). The initial work has all been done in house with some assistance from the FlightSoftware and IP in Space groups, once we make things publicaly available (and it will be) source will be included for everything that we work on and can Open up (there are somethings that we will probably not be able to open due to NDA issues, but they will most likely be very specific to the Univ. Surrey Sat (http://www.sstl.co.uk/missions/mn_uosat_12.html ) we will be using for our tests. which is a 386EX) but what we can, we will have available under the GPL
ln_sensors? no, we currently are not using that, although we don't know what we may need in the future.
"Why Linux"
Space contractor Boeing buys Linux-AMD supercomputer for use in designing the new Delta IV rocket that launches satellites into space.
If Star Trek has taught us anything, our satellite technologies get absorbed into new, super technology-thingies that then want to destroy us because we are not the prefection they now seek, or they are looking for their creator.
Will these resulting combinations honor the GPL and release their source? Can the FSF use lawyers to get source from V'ger or NOMAD?
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
And to think, other bird's wings will be useless!
:)
How about a daemon, like in OPENBSD!!!!
I hope they will give us the sourcecode of the programs they run on that machine, but I don't bet on that.
Perhaps we will find out they actually use it to run a slightly modified version of lm-sensors!
- Hubert
that's the type of news we would like to hear, not that 'another clueless M@#$^F%$#&ER can't figure out how to run Linux', so he believes M$ is better.
I'm curious if it had been opensourced, would 'someone' have picked up on the conversion fault with the Mars lander?
Guess we will find out.
DanH
Cavalry Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
We also call the language we speak over here in 'The Colonies' English. I guess we're not too precise in our language :)
DanH
Cavalry Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
What ever happened to all of NASA's legendary coders that could right a re-entry program in just a few lines of binary/asm?? Hell folks, why not keep it simple! Save money, and make things more reliable, code that is small enough to memorize is alot less likely to have serious problems in it!
Of course some things do need major pieces of software and full blown OS's.
So what the fuck has NASA been doing all these years? Shit, I can understand them using a product that is already out on the market and that they have the source too due to budget cuts, but shit, why havn't they developed their own OS that is sturdier then hell and can resist anything. They have had more then enough time to do it in, and it is not like computer OS's are a new concept are anything like that. Come on NASA, get on the ball, what ever happened to THINKING AHEAD. You'd figure that after the various problems with the Apollo missions that they would have learned!
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
What bad news ? When i logged of two days ago, everything was great. Now you tell me something bad has happened ? Should i panic ?
We have a theory, not substantiated yet, that Linux runs cooler than other operating systems
I always thought that Linux was cool, but that was only metaphorically !Only a computer geek will get exited over something like this!
Now sep back for a second and imagin yourself a normal person that know nothing about computers, much less ever heard about Linux:
Geek: "NASA is running Linux!!!"
You: "Uhh What's Linux?"
Geek: "It's a operating system."
You: Huh?
Geek: "You know Windows, well but better!"
You: "Yhm.... ok." (dork)
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
"In between all the bad news..." What bad news?!? It's only bad news if you're hearing it from someone who's never used Linux before.
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
Didn't Beowulf clustering originate at NASA? yes.
Didn't that HAM satellite that was mentioned here at slashdot multiple times run on Debian? AFAIK.
Space related sciences and Linux in combination are nothing new.
However, what is interesting here is that NASA, who tests everything down to the last little nit, has deemed linux as worthy for controlling one of their satellites. Their testing is done more rigorously than anyone.
Especially since they don't have Feynman to call when it goes wrong.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
A lot of on-orbit satellites CPUs are running state machines, not really an OS...most thoughts about CPUs in space have been considering Lynx or Vx Works.
No one said anything about using Linux in mission critical Space Shuttle applications...the article specifically mentions satellites only.
I'm English and we (mostly) use the Metric system.
The older system (feet and inches, pounds and ounces) is referred to as Imperial.
I take it in the US it's called 'English' - weird.
Dunno about the ISS, but the Shuttle s/w is so intensively tuned and (dare I say it) perfected that you'd have to pry it from their cold, dead fingers. This has been posted before, but it's worth reading if you didn't catch it then.
This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander
I saw this coming long ago. Well, not like in "the dark age" (prelinux era). Not much of a accomplishment anyways...
(check my nick)
linux2marsAC is AC
If there was ever a malfunction, as there might be. How much quicker would it be to send out an SOS to linux hackers asking for a bug fix. Be a lot quicker for a few thousand developers around the world trying to fix the bug than a few engineers in NASA. You could become a world hero saving a few lives by fixing the unknown bug.
-- Cheer, Cheer, The Red and the White.
Let's hope they have some good software deleopers, cause we don't want the software becoming all patchy, like the MIR is now... ;-)
The good or bad of any thing depends on what use we make of it, and with so many dedicated users Linux can not fade away so easily.
There's always sufficient, but not always at the right place nor for the right folks.
Man I would like to have your Linux system. I have not yet figured out a way to get mine to write anything!
Man, I am confused by your post. I think that you are referring to a small vocal minority of Linux users who use Linux out of a sort of reactionary urge to be different rather than for the real benefits that the OS offers:
- Increased transparancy: Unlike Windows, Linux is transparent and allows (but does not force) the user to participate in the inner workings of the system. UNIX operating systems tend to have this characteristic.
- Stability: Particularly in the server market, Linux has a well proven reliability record. Reliability is of particular interest regarding servers, and so it has some real benefits to offer in this reguard.
I am well versed in both worlds and comfortable working with NT (I am an MCSE) and in Linux (LPIC-1). But in the end, I prefer Linux.LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
As I said, I am comforable with a variety of platforms including UNIX (Solaris/HP-UX), Windows NT/2000, and Linux. In general, I prefer Linux. I am not hostile toward Microsoft or any other company. I just find that it suits my needs better.
: For some strange reason, Einhverfr is worried he'll be disenfranchised and shunned by the worst types of disingenuous, disgraceful sad sacks I've ever seen.
Normally I would not reply to something like this. However, I am not sure what you mean by this. Please don't get me wrong, I am actually trying to understand your point of view.
However, his conceited prevarications convince the worst kinds of blasphemous buffoons there are that there is absolutely nothing they can do to better their lot in life besides joining him. Einhverfr then blames us for that.
Please enlighten me as to where I blame people for anything. Calling Windows opaque is not blame. It is a statement of fact and one that helps it be successful in a certain user market.
This whole discussion is getting rather off topic, and if you wnat to continue this discussion, write me (einhverfr@hotmail.com).
However, I think that the question as to whether Linux is all hype or whether it brings real value to the industry is relavent in the discussion of NASA's use. Many of us forget that NASA has a long and illustrius histry of using Linux where it does add value to their projects. A primary example of this sort of thing is the Beowulf project (which developed a virtual supercomputer using commodity computers of the day).
THat NASA is using embeded Linux in its satalites is not at all surprising. The Mars rover runs Linux on some of its systems, so this is not even the first time that NASA has been using embedded Linux in a spacegoing device.
Linux is used because it brings real value to these projects. NASA is aware of this. If you insist on thinking of the NASA Linux projects as being as demented as you seem to think, then I cannot change your mind.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
You are right that one instance means nothing, but, when it keeps happening, it is called a trend and it is significant.
The Space Shuttle and ISS don't necessarily use a conventional "Operating System", rather proprietary systems. Could you imagine porting the millions of lines of code from their proprietary systems to ANYTHING ELSE?!?!?! All it would take is ONE error in the logic and, oops. It is already buggy enough as it is after being refined for decades.
;-)
Linux at NASA is, like, SO OLD NEWS! (best Valley-Girl® dialect) Beowulf cluster anyone?
Don't forget they still use Amigas for satellite control.
My name fits again.
$man microsoft
Crowded elevator smell different to midget. -Chinese Proverb
Dont they usaly write an independant os for satilites and telescopes and such?
Whu hasn't anyone commented on how cool Tux looks with a space helmet? Someone at that sire did a really nice job with the logo. Now, if I could just get a a space helmet for my 12" toy Tux...
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www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
they are trying make up for the lost funding by avoiding haveing to pay for a bazilion NT licences.
Absolute Stupidity
http://www.13kingdoms.com/odd/