Progeny Debian Release Candidate 1

IanMurdock writes: "Progeny Debian Release Candidate 1 is available. Read the release information or go to the download pages."

Comments

Re:opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian developers are apt to get a woody when confronted by a frozen potato.

you don't need the 2nd CD to install

[raulmazda]

Originally the plan was for it all to be on one CD. Eventually the CD sizes fluctuated up above 1 CD's worth, and the extras (second) CD had to be put together.

You do not need the second CD to install Progeny Debian. It's just extra stuff like kde etc that didn't quite fit on the first CD.

As it is now, I don't believe it will all fit on one CD. If it turns out to be close, I guess we'll try to tune it to fit on that one CD, but that remains to be seen.

Don't listen to the guy who says it's non-free stuff or whatever... that's made up from what I can tell. It's made up of stuff that are in the "extra" package sets, which is not based on free or non-free (I believe netscape is the only non-free software shipping, though I cannot speak authoritatively on the subject).

laz

--
My car is orange, my sig is not.

TOY STORY!!!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

The Toy Story naming convention goes back to when Bruce Perens was head of the Debian Project...

Bruce was the Systems Admin/Engineer for Pixar's network and RenderFarm (tm). Bruce went on to more SPI related stuff, and the ESR flamewars. Debian stuck with the cute release names.

Sid - the horrible child who will blow your toys up - is the permanent name of the unstable package branch!

Jeremiah

Oh yeah, apt... Few team members agree on this one: A Package Tool/Advanced Package Tool/Aquisitive Package Tool. File this under FVWM.

Re:TOY STORY!!!

[Bruce Perens]

I was never a sysadmin there. I was a systems programmer. My main projects were

• The Pixar II Image Computer, for which I did a gate-array behavioral model used to verify a chip we were designing, some of the microcode, and all of the systems software.
• The Iceman Imaging Language, for which I did the non-graphical part of the language design, the language internals, the framework for image processing in the second and subsequent rewrites, and the simpler 2-D processes like compositing and mathematical operators. Graphics and signal processing gurus did the more fancy imaging operators.
• The port of the modeling software to Open GL.
• Lived through at least 3 entirely different business plans, 4 rounds of layoffs, and 8 years in which we lost at least $40 Million. After all of that we finally made money.

I spent 12 years there in all, after 6 years at the NYIT computer graphics lab and half a year doing radiology systems at Matrix Instruments. Much of my time at Pixar was fun, although there were some very stressful and frustrating years mixed in. I remain a systems programmer and never really got into graphics.

Thanks

Bruce

LOL!

[Enahs]

The thing is, I'd almost have to agree with you. I just made the Big Switch from Slack Linux to FreeBSD, and I've gotta say, I was impressed with autoslack. autoslack -iurs was all you needed to do to pick new packages, upgrade packages, delete deprecated. I think it compares (and I'm just now learning about FreeBSD; please be forgiving :-) favorably with tools such as pkg_add and family.

Re:To be clear,

[Enahs]

Hm. My experience has shown that many Debian users are lost when they can't apt-get install something, as if the Debian Faerie makes .debs or something. And no, that's not a troll or flame; I've really run into many a person that, when confronted with installing something that's not apt-gettable say, "Fuck no; I run Debian so I don't have to compile anything." Lazy, lazy, lazy.

Re:A Commercial Version of Debian

[Sneakums]

The whole point of Debian is that it's not commercialized.

Actually, the whole point of Debian is that it doesn't suck.

--
"Where, where is the town? Now, it's nothing but flowers!"

Don't Be So Sure

[Bruce Perens]

I agree that it's a bad idea to ask the Debian organization to support a commercial distribution, and Progeny isn't doing that. But Progeny Debian is indeed supposed to be Debian as far as the software you are getting is concerned. Sure, they added some stuff, but it is all DFSG-free and available to the Debian developers to incorporate into the main Debian tree. Also, the Debian packagers that Progeny employs are some pretty key ones. They maintain up to 50 packages per person. One of them mainains X, which is huge and pretty critical.

Also, note that the Progeny CEO is the Debian founder, and is not one to "take advantage" of the volunteer developers, he is solidly behind the Debian way of doing things and actually created a lot of it. They also have me as chairman for a little while longer (although I have never worked there), and then I'll be on their advisory board, and I am the main author of the DFSG and again not someone to "take advantage" of volunteer developers.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:Don't Be So Sure

[dbarclay10]

I agree that it's a bad idea to ask the Debian organization to support a commercial distribution, and Progeny isn't doing that.

Nope, they arn't. But that doesn't mean anything if all of a sudden large portions of Debian maintainers' and supporters' efforts go towards maintaining Progeny; regardless of whether Progeny asked for it or not.

Also, the Debian packagers that Progeny employs are some pretty key ones.

I realize that much. My original comment wasn't meant to belittle Progeny in the least, and if I could retroactively edit it I would. The purpose was to point out to those who read the Slashdot article and then download Progeny that Progeny is *not* Debian, and that they should maintain a certain attitude when getting support from typical Debian sources.

One of them mainains X, which is huge and pretty critical.

Yes, Branden Robinson. Pleasant fellow :) I filed a rather long bug report. Heck, they wern't even bugs, they were just requests for behavioural modifications to the debconf part of XFree86. Very nice guy, and I know it'd be a bitch finding another XFree maintainer if he stopped(let's not bring up Mozilla). And I packaged Mozilla 0.8 myself(took me about two weeks, and finished just before Kitame released his), up to par with Debian Policy. It was absolute hell. While Mozilla doesn't play by regular rules(because of its multi-platform nature, I suppose), and XFree86 would, I realize how much work it'd be.

Also, note that the Progeny CEO is the Debian founder, and is not one to "take advantage" of the volunteer developers, he is solidly behind the Debian way of doing things and actually created a lot of it. They also have me as chairman for a little while longer (although I have never worked there), and then I'll be on their advisory board, and I am the main author of the DFSG and again not someone to "take advantage" of volunteer developers.

I'll refer to my first reply on your first comment. Even though Progeny may do everything right, Debian volounteers might still feel taken advantage of.

Thanks

No, no, thank you ;)

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:Don't Be So Sure

[dbarclay10]

The only way you can forever avoid the issues that you say you fear Progeny will usher in, is for Linux to remain forever the province of the elitist hacker.

<BR>
Please read my comment again, and avoid twisting my words this time.<BR>
<BR>
I was not talking about excluding Progeny users from Debian support channels, I was warning Progeny users to be respectful of the Debian community, because they're using a non-Debian-standard distribution. And a commercial one, at that, which has support available from Progeny.

Dave

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

You missed one detail

[Bruce Perens]

Progeny is not making money off of your technical support, at least not yet, because they are not selling the distribution yet. Everything is free so far. Once they start selling, people will have an expectation of commercial support. I suppose some of what you have been seeing so far is due to the free nature of the pre-release system - there's no box with Progeny's phone number on it.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:You missed one detail

[dbarclay10]

"at least not yet" being the key phrase here.

They will eventually. And I actually won't mind for the most part. Just part of the community :) But if I end up catering to arrogant, disrespectful, inconsiderate Progeny users, I will stop. How long will the people that make Debian what it is be able to put up with it, while still holding Progeny in a good light?

I dunno, and I hope we don't find out.

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:A Commercial Version of Debian

[Bruce Perens]

No, Debian wants to be the basis of commercial distributions. It likes the people who duplicate Debian CDs and sell them, too. That saves Debian a whole lot of effort and gets them more users.

The point of Debian is an entirely free system made by volunteers. That doesn't mean that it can't be sold or commercialized, as long as you always have the chance to get a free or cheap copy if you so desire.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:To be clear,

[Bruce Perens]

OK, I know where you are coming from, and at the same time when I read this I smiled and thought to myself "Gee, it really sucks to have users!".

This has been a basic tension within Debian since it attracted the first non-hacker.

Debian can't control who its users are and remain free. It's more important to be free.

I'm one of those people who think world domination is a worthwhile goal. For that I'm willing to put up with a lot of naivete, I actually find the hackers-only crowd harder to deal with.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:and KDE?

[Bruce Perens]

KDE is included, but I think GNOME is their choice of GUI. They felt it was necessary to choose, but they didn't rule out KDE users. And the KDE war is so long over, folks. They have even made peace with RMS.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:i wonder

[Bruce Perens]

The "testing" distribution is 15 days behind "unstable" and does not contain any packages for which critical bugs have been reported. It is a good compromise for folks who want new stuff and also don't want to run the risk of big problems.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:How to tell when Linux has become too commercia

[Bruce Perens]

It's Debian with commercial support. I can think of some cases where volunteer support really won't work - like when large companies are using it for thousands of seats. It doesn't really seem fair, as others have pointed out, for the volunteers to be the first line of support for that. So Progeny is there to handle that. I agree that there is some danger of having Progeny users pop up on the volunteer support list and not really understand how to work with the volunteers, but I'd hope that this could be handled by having Progeny monitor those lists.

Bruce

Re:No answer??

[Bruce Perens]

Well, consider it this way. Debian is a contraction of Deborah and Ian. Ian is the CEO of Progeny, Deb is his wife. So, who is using whose name :-)

But quite seriously, I wrote the trademark rules back when I was Debian project leader, and this sort of usage was not only allowed but encouraged. We did not at that time realize that years later Ian and I would actually get money to form our own company.

Thanks

Bruce

Toy story names.

[Bruce Perens]

Yes. I hear that two years after I left Pixar, they now use Linux in production. They were in a headlong rush toward NT when I left. Ironic, isn't it.

Bruce

Re:progeny

[Bruce Perens]

Aaargh! Although Ian and I are not currently Debian package maintainers, which means we each quit at some point, I think the word "defector" might give the impression that we are somehow hostile to Debian, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Bruce

Re:i wonder

[Bruce Perens]

I am running "unstable" pretty constantly for the last 5 years or so. It has broken to the point that something needed to be fixed before I could use the system 2 or 3 times. It still amazes me how well Debian works given that some developers have never even met another Debian developer. Of late, I have had to force the installer around a few situations where two packages claim the same file, but that is easy to do.

Actually, I wish most software was as stable as Debian's "unstable". Sometimes the name seems like a tremendous overstatement.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:To be clear,

[Bruce Perens]

Again, given that the Progeny executive team currently has the two first Debian project leaders as Chairman and CEO, who also happen to be the Debian founder, the founder of SPI, the author of the DFSG, the chance of alienation or "taking advantage" is rather low.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:License? - GPL

[benmhall]

Hi.

I'm 99.99% sure that everything they're doing is GPL'd. I've been following them for a while and I'm sure that I'd read that.

Check out debianplanet.org for interviews/reviews/discussuins with respect to Progeny.

Personally, I think that Progeny's slick install/distro is a real boon for widespread Debian acceptance, but I hope they stick with a console-based install. Out of all of the fancy distro's available for my aging Alpha (It's an old picky 233) Debian's was the only one that went through without a hitch.

Re:and KDE?

[Phexro]

well, kde 2.1 is included in debian's unstable ("sid") branch, as well as gnome, windowmaker, etc. i'm running it (with antialiased fonts, xfree86 4.0.2 w/multihead) right now... kde 2.1 probably won't make the debian 2.3 release, but it should be in 2.4.
--

Re:i wonder

[phred]

I *am* a "mere user" but even though I'm currently running FreeBSD I have great admiration for Debian and affection for the Debian developer community.

I met up with a bunch of the core folks at Usenix last summer and we went off -- with Ian Murdock leading the way -- for a couple rounds of beer at a local bar in San Diego after they closed down the hotel meeting rooms. GPG keys were swapped, tall tales of PHBs were told, and Ian clued us in to a little of Progeny's future plans, for which the distro is just one building block.

I like the Debian attitude because it is refreshingly mature, while not been stuffy. That in turn reflects the experience and willingness to try new stuff and see what works, and in turn that goes back to the influence that Ian himself, Bruce and, yes, RMS, have had on Debian. But of course it wouldn't happen without the contributions of hundreds of developers and testers and documentation writers.

I couldn't be more pleased that Debian has emerged as the flagship of the good old Unix hacker ethic. It made a rather stuffy Usenix meeting come alive for me.

-------

Re:To be clear,

[grappler]

because it uses .deb packages, instead of, say, .rpm packages (eg mandrake)

--

Re:I'm DLing now...

[HiThere]

Non-free like KDE? I assume that you mean like Qt, and I thought that that argument had been resolved.

Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.

Re:A Commercial Version of Debian

[HiThere]

If the company makes a go of it, then it could be a way of getting Debian a lot of support. Just consider what Red Hat has done for Gnome. Or even what Mandrake has done for KDE.


Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.

Re:Slashdot == Freshmeat?

[reaper20]

For big projects I think that having it appear on /. is fine. Most of these announcements are for programs that affect linux's future tremendously, so we need a forum to discuss them on. If I want to find out about YAPSTDWAOAD (yet another perl script that does what another one already does), THEN I'll head to freshmeat

Re:Finally

[Flower]

Yes i know you can always run testing or unstable, but guess what, that's not stable.

Huh. And neither is a x.0 version of Red Hat. The common wisdom is you have to wait until version x.2 for everything to settle. So that's half a year to get a new version and another year to get it stable. Debian doesn't look that bad if you ask me.

License?

[divec]

Anyone know what the license is of the enhancements? I couldn't see anything directly on the homepage, and 655 MB over a modem is a bit unrealistic :-(

Could the graphical installer be used in Debian proper, or is it non-free?

Re:A Commercial Version of Debian

[1010011010]

Great, a commercial version of Debian.

Not the first. Remember Corel?

The whole point of Debian is that it's not commercialized.

Er... the whole point is, it's high-quality Free (Libre) software, not that it's not commercialized.

- - - - -

FYI, You can do that with Debian now.

[NetJunkie]

Check Freshmeat and do a search for Debian and ReiserFS. Last I looked there were two projects that had made boot disks to install Debian with Reiser. The older one had you create the volumes manually, while the newer project integrated it in to the install. I used these the last time I did a Reiser install and it worked great. ReiserFS is wonderful.

Re:No answer??

[be-fan]

That's just a legal cop out. The fact is, that if you use "Debian" in the name, than 99% of users are going to assume that the two distributions are simply different aspects of the same thing. Using Debian in the name, legal or not, still invokes the "Official Debian" distro to sell your software. I'm not saying this is good or bad, its just the consequences of calling it Progeny Debian.

How to tell when Linux has become too commercial.

[be-fan]

When half the entire board, reading high-scores down, is about political issues. Licenses, use of the Debian name, free vs. non-free OSS vs the world. Since I seem the be the only *real* geek here, I have a question. Is there any technological basis at ALL for Progeny Debian, or is it simply a cop-out to project managers who can't stand the idea of using a product from a non-commerical entity?

Re:I'm confused

[be-fan]

You don't know what your talking about. RedHat is a commerical distribution too, but you can still download it for free.

Re:How to tell when Linux has become too commercia

[be-fan]

That wasn't my point. My point was that everyone is so caught up with the political aspects (license, etc) that nobody is apying attention to the technology in the distro.

Re:How to tell when Linux has become too commercia

[be-fan]

Wow! I didn't know Debain was THAT out of date!

For the uncultured among you, The Social Contract was a book written in the 16th century by the French philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau.

PS> This really shouldn't be necessary, but some /. people! I have nothing against Debian. I just thought the naming of the document was funny. No flames, please!

Re:To be clear,

[dbarclay10]

but, i have a sneaking feeling that, if you came into #debian, or the mailing lists and asked politely for help. that you would still get flamed for using somthing "watered down", and not as "hardcore" as debian.

Well, I won't totally disagree with you. I am one of those Debian "helpers". I subscribe to debian-user and reply where I can, and I'm often in irc.openprojects.net's #debian helping people out(my nick is ElectricElf).

Anyways, I do, on occasion, turn some of the "needier" Progeny/Storm/OtherVariant users away. They're using a commercial distribution, so why don't they pay for their tech support? So far, Progeny hasn't really done a whole lot for the Debian community. They have some more up-to-date packages, but they arn't yet available in the regular Debian archives. They do employ a couple of packagers ... but there are hundreds doing unpaid work, so it's just a drop in the bucket.

That being said, by and large, I see people helping people. It isn't often that someone who is polite and considerate gets shot out of the water for using a Debian variant.

On the other hand, Progeny is making money off my giving tech support. I think I'm allowed to say, "No, either give me a cut or I won't help your users." Sure, it sounds cold, and I have very rarely thought that, but it's really quite true. A company selling something should not rely on volounteers to do part of their job for them. Those volounteers will eventually get pissed and angry, for being taken advantage of.

So you see, it's actually quite complex :)

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:To be clear,

[dbarclay10]

Well, if Progeny is not Debian, why does it have Debian in its name?

If you expect that people will be blamed for asking support for Progeny in the Debian lists, let's open them their eyes now and tell them that what they are buying is not what they might think it is?

Allright, I thought I made it clear, but here it is again:

Progeny Debian Linux is based on Debian Linux, a distribution put together by volounteers worldwide. Progeny Linux is nearly completely compatible with the normal, non-commercial Debian distribution. However, Progeny is a commercial entity. Debian is not, it's a community effort. On the technical side of things, there's not a whole lot of difference between the two.

But let's look at Mandrake and Red Hat. The first few Mandrake releases were basically Red Hat clones with KDE added on. Yet the two were considered very different, because both companies had very different goals and very different target audiences.

My big worry isn't that Progeny is trying to make a buck based on Debian the distribution. My worry is that they'll take advantage of Debian the community. Perhaps by shirking on tech support and reffering people to regular Debian support channels, perhaps by not contributing back to Debian proper's package base. This situation is fraught with difficulty, and I think that the Progeny people should step very lightly. They risk to alienate the Debian community, which would be a bad thing for Debian the community, Debian the distribution, and Progeny the company.


Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:To be clear,

[dbarclay10]

Agreed. And it's nice that a former DPL points that out :)

Perhaps I should have been more specific. Instead of "Progeny taking advantage of the Debian community", perhaps I should have said "the Debian community being taken advantage of".

But, damnit, I've seen it start to happen already. I'd be a maintainer now if I wasn't joining the army. But I am, so I passed. However, I still put a good 5-10 hours a week into helping Debian users, so I feel that I'm allowed to voice my opinion. I see people posting to debian-user and people coming into #debian asking for help. And not politely. In fact, just today, someone repeatedly pasted an error message at me at ten-minute intervals, like I was a bot. Had they been a Progeny user, and the problem had been Progeny-specific, I would have been more than irritated; I would have been mad.

That's why I'm worried. I mean, Progeny can do everything right, and they can still end up alienating the vast majority of the Debian community. They can't control who their users are, and they can't control how they act.

Ah well... We'll see :) I'm not one for predicting doomsday, so I'll try and relax, and watch how it pans out :)

P.S.: To the Progeny developers, especially Branden who is doing great(visible) work: you're doing a good job :) I don't mean to belittle any of you, I'd just like to try to head off what could be a nasty community fight. If I come off differently, I apologize profusely.

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:To be clear,

[dbarclay10]

I guess you're right about the tension since the first non-hacker, although I only grudginly admit it ;)

I think I see where you'er coming from too. I'm not too big on world domination; I do it because I like it. :)

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:To be clear,

[dbarclay10]

From a technical standpoint(which is what counts in tech support), no, you are not running Debian. Progeny would be, though... But that's not the point here :)

For people to help you, you need to have a certain attitude. If you go to the debian-user mailing list, or the irc.openprojects.net #debian channel running Red Hat, you better be nice. Not because you're "not cool," but because you're getting help from people who are trying to contribute to the Debian community, and you wouldn't be a part of that.

The original comment was intended as a warning to Progeny users; if you want support from the Debian community, you need to respect said community. Elsewise, Progeny and the Debian community could have a tense relationship.

Dave

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:To be clear,

[dbarclay10]

a) A lot of Debian support people are very knowledgable. It doesn't matter what you're running, they could probably fix it. I've seen lots of Red Hat and other distribution-users asking for help in #debian because we have a reputation for competence.

b) It does matter where they got it from. Debian packages go through a rigorous testing procedure. As soon as they get the packages from a non-standard Debian source, the quality of the package is questionable.

c) No, of course we shouldn't say "don't ask me about it, blah, blah, blah." But I help the Debian user base. Why? Because it's what I do for the Debian community. That community puts together a distribution I like, and I repay them by helping to support their users. Now, if I'm supporting Red Hat users, or Slackware users, I'm not really paying back the Debian maintainers, am I? No, of course not. And when I'm helping a Red Hat user, there's a Debian user who isn't gettng help. Simple as that. Now, I don't exclude people based on what distribution they run. BUT, if they run a non-Debian distribution(like Progeny or Red Hat), and they're whiney and disrespectful to boot, you're damned right I won't help. It's not worth the effort.

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

To be clear,

[dbarclay10]

I'd like to make something clear here;

Progeny is not Debian.

Okay? :) Just like Mandrake is not Red Hat. Just like Slackware is not the Linux From Scratch HOWTO/distribution. Please keep that in mind. If you join Debian mailing lists, demanding support for Progeny, you won't be pleased with the results. If you go on Debian IRC channels and demand support for Progeny, you'll get flamed.

If you have a good attitude though, you'll be welcomed. Be nice, be polite. But Progeny is not Debian, so don't expect help from Debian users. Progeny is a variant, and hence rather Debian-like. I'd even say it's compatible on a few levels. But it's not Debian.

Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)

Re:To be clear,

[Forrestina]

"If you join Debian mailing lists, demanding support for Progeny, you won't be pleased with the results. If you go on Debian IRC channels and demand support for Progeny, you'll get flamed."

if you join ANY irc channel and DEMAND support for somthing, you'll probably get flamed. but, the truth of the matter is, most of the system will be debian. same with storm that i've used in the past. if they're smart and don't totally alter the structure, so that they only add to debian, instead of alter.

but, i have a sneaking feeling that, if you came into #debian, or the mailing lists and asked politely for help. that you would still get flamed for using somthing "watered down", and not as "hardcore" as debian.

i'm a debian user, i love it, i recommend it to all my friends. but, the attitudes that you get from a lot of debian users really suck.

not sure where i was going with all that. but, i think you can expect to actually have a fair amount of help from debian users work just fine. like, howto configure an ethernet card, or how apt works, or similar questions.

-------

Re:To be clear,

[cyber-vandal]

Surely it should be Progeny Debian GNU/Linux, or would that have made the box too big ;-) ?

Re:To be clear,

[BlowCat]

Well, if Progeny is not Debian, why does it have Debian in its name?

If you expect that people will be blamed for asking support for Progeny in the Debian lists, let's open them their eyes now and tell them that what they are buying is not what they might think it is?

Re:opportunity

[Llanfairpwllgwyngyll]

apt - advanced package management tool (or something like that)
woody and potato are releases of Debian - potato is the current stable release, woody is the next one. Before Potato was slink and before that was Bo. Each Debian release is named after a character from Toy Story :-)

Re:A Commercial Version of Debian

[Llanfairpwllgwyngyll]

This is a commercial distribution *based on* Debian. It's not quite the same thing really.

Debian is non-commercial; new releases are brought out when they are ready, not just to satisfy the marketing department of a corporation. There is no pressure to remove the *live* bugs database from full public access which might come with being commercial.

Progeny's Debian-based distribution is someone taking Debian, packaging it up in a certain way, and selling the distro + support.

Nothing about this worries me - we might even get some commercial software that isn't full of redhatisms that take a while to untangle in order to get it to work on other distributions.

�This flamewar is fucking over; go play Nintendo

[yerricde]

>>GNOME bashing
>KDE bashing
This flamewar is over. If you wish to continue fighting about GNOME vs. KDE, I suggest you look at Battle of the Desktops.
All your hallucinogen are belong to us.

Re:GREAT STORY! GREAT STORY! GREAT STORY! GREAT ST

[talonyx]

You are dumb. Ian Murdock MADE THE DISTRO. He's the "ian" in Debian. Get a clue.

KDE Discrimination By Assholes

[Karma Sucks]

They have a Very Very Old KDE on the second CD but they have the latest and greatest GNOME from today! Just look at the timestamps of the files here:

http://archive.progeny.com/progeny/dists/progeny /m ain/binary-i386/x11/

It's KDE 2.0 from last year for God's sake they are trying to bias users. :(

WRONG. KDE 2.01 out for months & KDE 2.1 for weeks

[Karma Sucks]

And not only that they updated their GNOME TODAY. YOU don't think they could at least have the decency to update KDE when it came out WEEKS ago??

Re:I'd HTFW if I *could*... (Re:Progeny?)

[Alien54]

I appreciate the summary: I tried to hit the fine website, but of course it is currently Slashdotted...

well, maybe it was problem with an intermediate router. I got the info from a dialup at the time....

;-)

Not a big deal.

A Commercial Version of Debian

[1alpha7]

Great, a commercial version of Debian. The whole point of Debian is that it's not commercialized.

1Alpha7

I'm DLing now...

[B14ckH013Sur4]

And was wondering why I should download 2 CDs whose sum is 655MB... they couldn't have packed more on the second or less (5MB) on the first??
Hmm.