Slashdot Mirror
Stormix Technologies Shut Down
avidwriter@excite.com writes: "Linux Today is reporting that the phone lines to Stormix have been disconnected, and the Web site isn't accepting orders. Looks like another Linux vendor is down for the count." So, I think we'll officially pronounce Stormix dead. Some of the FTP sites are still carrying Stormix ISO's, so if you're looking for an easy way to install Debian on a machine, better get them while you can.
Unfortunately, it wasn't enough, and I didn't get the job. I would have actually fixed the bugs, but the code they wrote didn't have any source code available. This means that their distro wasn't redistributable in beta form, if my impression of it's being under the GPL was correct.
Someone close to the issue once told me, brilliat coders, terrible marketing. I mean, do we really need another distro, especially one based on Debian but with KDE?
I just LOVE michael's site! Especially the "fash" section, where I learned to cut the bottom off of an old shirt to use as a hair enhancement! Oh, and the "dance party" photos!
Of course, don't forget to read michael's emails! Here you will discover how truly difficult it is to decide what to do on the weekends... have a pizza party? A fash party? Go to the mall with all of your friends? Have a sleepover and call boys on the phone?
In short, if you haven't checked out michael's site, you don't know what you're missing!
I think you are mistaking being slashdotted for ordinary downtime.
linuxtoday ought to be used to the load caused by slashdot.
--
I think the 1U thing came out just as they were going bust. Anyone know if they actually shipped? They looked nice in a coblt-y RAQ kinda way.
...j
And porn :).
So what about those that compile source rpms on Red Hat?
Posted by polar_bear:
Yeah, and it's a shame that Stormix is going under. Stormix installs pretty easily on laptops and other computers... I really liked their install and management tools. Granted, I could get Debian to run on the same computers, but configuring sound and printers is way easier with Stormix. (I've found one or two instances, though, where Stormix would bomb during the install...but Debian just plowed through).
Frankly, I think Stormix got burned by jumping straight into retail and by getting into bed with distributors like Ingram-Micro (they own Buy.com and have a bad tendency to let Buy sell stuff at cost - which screws over all the other retailers...) and they had some over-generous rebates trying to rapid-build market share.
All-in-all, though, I think their heart was in the right place, figuratively speaking.
Too much significance should not be read into this, though - many businesses fail, especially in new markets. Hell, I used to live in a small town that had a number of mom 'n' pop diners fail one after another - not because the market for diners or food was weak, but because a succession of poor businesspeople opened restaurants that they didn't know how to run. Eventually, a decent manager got hold of the place and has been running a diner successfully for five or six years...
Anyway, I hope the folks I've worked with at Stormix have managed to find new jobs. They deserve some luck.
Randomly Related...
Someone in local newsgroups asked why people use MySQL so much when PostgreSQL has had, for long time, MANY features that were missing from MySQL, and in version 7.x PostgreSQL is already almost as fast as MySQL.
I guess it's the same reason why "everybody else" is using Windows: "Everybody else" is using it. People who know better what to choose will choose better.
Or like why people are using MS Word when LaTeX2e beats the living datasegment out of Word any time.
Don't get me wrong. Redhat is a decent dist, but I've personally noticed Debian is much better, so I use it. It's just that the "ignorant masses" (I really stretch the "ignorant" here) tend to use what everyone else is using. (After all, if so many people are using it and are not complaining, it's got to be good, right?)
'FreeLinux has always been at war with OpenLinux.'
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I think for a company that deals in Linux to be successful, you need to be able to tag along with an already successful firm.
Red Hat Software lucked out because their distribution of Linux has become pretty much the de facto distribution, used by such big companies as Dell Computer, Compaq, IBM, and so on.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
To quote the Jargon Dictionary:
If you want to play in the Real World, you need to learn Real World moves.
Good point, but we still don't need dozens of distro's just because people have different installation preferences... just more flexible intallers, really.
They're all basically the same and all the codes available, there's no real reason for all the redundany's in distros. Everyone should just suck it up and work collaberatively rather than competitively and attack the target(s) (servers and eventually desktops) together in one unified strike rather than 200 little skirmish's
I blame that on the marketing department.
Even today, i'm not sure what exactly they have to offer (though I do know about their firewall stuff). More important is the fact that I don't know of any reason why I would choose Stormix over another product.
It's sad to admit it, but the marketing department really needs to get into faces and get stuff out there. I don't remember reading any product reviews or anything like that. Did they send out free copies to anyone for reviewing purposes? If not, maybe they should've.
Anyhow, one company going down doesn't make that much of a dent in the scene. You still got the heavy hitters like Ximian and Redhat out there, and so long as interest remains, that's all that matters.
Cheers,
Coplan
I wonder if $3000 from IBM would help the company? We've found a new profit model!
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
What does Progeny offer that Debian does not? From what I read, it seems to be a friendly installer and support services. Since the friendly installer is GPL'd, will Debian reassimilate it?
cpeterso
I have two Stormix boxes - in both cases I just use apt to upgrade everything. When I wanted ssh (I either didn't bother to install it at first or it didn't come with it, I can't remember) I just run apt-get install openSSH, and poof! It was all in place.
Frankly, I don't have the time to be hunting down updates and love the east of Apt. It's why I switched to Stormix from Mandrake (I used to use slackware a while ago but don't have time to go into administration at the same depth I used to).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I have two (kind of three) Stormix boxes right now - I was using Mandrake for a while but Stormix seemed to handle detection of things on my really old P166 a lot better.
So what made me stick with Stormix even for machines Mandrake installed fine on? As many people point out quite often here, "Apt" is about as nice as package management gets under Linux.
The great thing is, even though Stormix the company may be gone, and the Stormix site for apt updates is gone, I really don't care - I just pointed my sources list to the Debian site (as well as the Debian security site) and ran a dist-upgrade with no trouble at all.
Stormix also had some nice administration programs and great installation, but really what I like most about any Debian based distribution is how easy it is to maintain even if the company that originated the distribution has problems.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think you are mistaking being slashdotted for ordinary downtime. linuxtoday ought to be used to the load caused by slashdot.
If they ought to be used to it, then why the downtime? Sounds like a contradiction there.
What's your damage, Heather?
Here's the really funny part: LinuxToday is already Slashdotted, but Stormix is doing fine. I'm not sure what that says about each company's web servers, or their business model, but I find it hilarious that the dead company has better web staying power.
What's your damage, Heather?
For some people, compiling everything from source may indeed be fun/feasable. However, as your farm becomes larger you'll learn to LOVE package management.
;)
That's why we've standardized on RedHat for server-type Linux stuff. Yes, I know that other distros are/might be better in some areas, but you have to make a choice.
RedHat has good marketing, hence good visibility on the higher levels of management. That's important too.
Oh, and don't assume we're not Hardcore UNIX just because we install our Solaris boxen from binaries (*Yuck! Binaries!*)
-- Gxis! Ed.
The site is up, but the shopping cart doesn't accept orders.
-- the cake is a lie
ok, I'll bite: since when all debian packages are distributed source-only?
If you so desire, you can download source RPMs for RedHat and compile those, or you can install the binaries. The same goes for debian, most people install the binaries, but if you want to, you can compile from source packages.
Disclaimer: I am currently running an old debian at home, and RH 7 at work.
-- the cake is a lie
The story said that the site is not accepting orders not that the site is down. If you go to the site, go to the shopping area and try to order stuff, it says that the order section is down 'for maintenance'
The rest of the site is up, and the story never implied otherwise.
-- the cake is a lie
Proprietary consumer applications is a dead market. Those small apps would be fairly easy to code, which means you'd be likely to have an instant free competitor. If there is sufficient demand for the applications there will be enough programmers who want such an application which will end up with them writing it.
Vertical markets and games are the only places where you will be able to make any money. Things like ERP systems and very specialized software, because those things are both complicated, have no spare-time hackers who need them, and have customers likely to pay for them. And games, because there is always room for new ones.
OT: Possible but not likely last I looked. Read the old KDE archives to figure our why.
Damn those people with principles. Why can't everybody be like me.
War is necrophilia.
I believe Slackware makes a profit.
"Slackware has always made money (who else producing a commercial distribution can say that?)"
See Patrick's post regarding Slackware and WindRiver. And Slashdot article on said subject.
Now admittedly, I don't know how MUCH money they've been making, but they do it by having a distro that is stable and secure [well, compared to most other distros]. I've found Slackware to be "short, sweet and to the point" Because of this I think more people are willing to fork over the $$ to get the distro. It's the only distro that I've liked enough to pay for anyway.
Ender
Nothing to see here
Unlike Corel Linux, Progeny Debian not a fork from Debian (it's more like a commercial `front-end' for Debian), so you can apt-get from one to the other and there aren't any serious compatibility problems, AFAIK. If Progeny goes out of business, it won't really affect anyone (from the software standpoint; support is another issue) short of a change to sources.list.
------
Mandrake ... loads and loads of applications
Last time I checked (2001-Apr-20), Debian had the most packages. See below.
zed:~# grep "^Package:" /var/lib/dpkg/available | sort | uniq | wc -l
7002
------
Yeah, and that's what we expect from RMS. That's why a lot of us say "either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version": we trust RMS to have the same rigid standards as he has always had.
------
Tell you what: in order to put this thing to bed, I'll drive down West Hastings on my way home and see if there are lights on.
After establishing whether they still have power, I'll then look for a "For Lease" sign around the windows and doorway.
Following that, I'll check the dumpster in the back for anything that reeks of Debian.
After I've collected my fodder, I'll report it to Slashdot and we'll start another thread on this dead issue.
-- I'm embarassed to look like Hemos.
Actually, most the of the Debian users I know, including myself, just apt-get the binaries from trusted sources. (mainly any debian.org mirror). I still compile a few things and even tweak around with the code a little (and end up usually breaking something). When I used slack I would either download the binary from a slackware mirror under slackware-current and use pkgtool to install the binary... However I did tend to compile alot more under slack.
.
If you're looking for another easy to install and use Debian based distro, try Progeny, mentioned here less than two weeks ago.
You can download ISO's and also read the instructions for upgrading from Potato (Debian r2.2) here.
Disclaimer: I haven't tried it yet (due to a lack of time).
How dare you compare CEOs and investors to a lifeform as high-up as a bird!
kickin' science like no one else can,
my dick is twice as long as my attention span.
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
If the web site is down, what's the point of putting a link to the site in the story?
Derek
Don't Panic...
Some of the FTP sites are still carrying Stormix ISO's, so if you're looking for an easy way to install Debian on a machine, better get them while you can
Anyone tried both Stormix and Debian?
Will I retire or break 10K?
As if the ISO's are going to ever disappear, evaporate, or expire because their immediate parents have? :)
Software mirrors and archive vendors like Cheapbytes keep stuff around forever. After the apocalypse there'll be cockroaches and 1993 Infomagic cd-roms.
===
The biggest company behind any distro is RedHat, and they make almost no money off sales. They try and offer support contracts and make their money there, but even that is slim
I'm far too lazy to go read RedHat's public financial information, but I always assumed they made money from support. I don't mean the "Joe Consumer calls us up and we help him install X-Windows" bullshit end-user support that no-one on earth enjoys being subjected to in any situation. I mean real support, to people with money who need support, and not just a clue stick.
Like, the kind of support where IBM says "We wan't to sell a laptop with Linux pre-installed. Help us validate and test the hardware and driver list, and help us keep the driver list up to date for the next three years." Or, the kind of support where Compaq says "we want to sell more Linux severs. Help us improve the drivers and utility software for our Compaq SmartArray RAID controllers." Or, even the kind of support where Oracle says "help us validate our software on future versions of the Linux operating system and future versions of glibc."
If any Linux vendor is trying to make money by end user sales, or by selling support to end users, it should be clear to anyone that Linux vendor is going to be royally fucked. I believe there can be a great deal of value in writing, maintaining, and improving free software -- if you find someone who believes the existance of that software is valuable to them. I can't see any value in selling free software. It's not compatible with the shrink wrapped market.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You forgot LINUXi
Feed The Need[goatse.cx]
Say farewell to fair-weather friends.
"If I were to ask you a hypothetical question, what would you like it to be about?"
Well I never said that you couldn't compile software on Red Hat. Or that you couldn't install binaries on Debian. Its just that(in my experience) most people use binaries in RH and compile things in Debian/Slack.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Having the source, browsing it, and compiling it to me seems to be the way to go for hardcore UNIX hackers. They would miss compiling things and wouldn't trust the software as much on a Red Hat or Mandrake system.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Um, you can do that...
.debs like everyone else....
or you can just install binary
By default, Debian package management is binary based. Sorry to shatter your illusions.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
As for installing Debian, why should someone use Debian versus any other version of Linux out there? The underlying facts remain, Linux is Linux no matter which version you use its all core code, some are easier to use than others, nothing more.
Philosophy: Debian is a community effort driven by volunteers, grounded very firmly in Free Software principles.
Here today, here tomorrow: The fact that Debian is not accountable to shareholders means it's not going to disappear because it's not making money, like Stormix seem to have.
Package Dependency Management: apt automates the retrieval and installation of package dependencies, as well as the requested package.
Stability: A Debian release does not have to be rushed out for the Marketing department; it is released when it is ready. And it shows.
Cross-architecture support: Debian runs on a larger range of CPU architectures than any other distro I am aware of. Intel, SPARC, PowerPC, 68k, PA-RISC, more.
That's why I use it anyway.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
/* Sarcasm on */ /* Sarcasm Off */
Now that Stormix is gone, where will I get my security updates?
Or -- boy I will surely miss the....errr...what did make Stormix so unique that will make it worthy of me to miss?
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
try installing Debian directly onto a software RAID-1 root partition, or onto a system drive running off a Mylex AcceleRAID 170. see you in about a week.
Ok, replying to my own post... lame, I know. This was supposed to be a reply to the comment "Why the link?" 2 comments up... hit the wrong button. One of those days... etc, etc.
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
SuSE does make money - the support is included in the price of the distro.
Years later, another fork will be created from NetLinux. The codebase will unify the strengths of unix with ease of use of the common PC. Of course, it will be released too early and will get a bad rep and later die off. *sigh*
If a Linux distro company was to fall down and nobody would be around to hear it, would it make a sound?
..Progeny. I installed it on my system and i love it. It even has a graphical front end to apt-get. So Stormix isn't (wasn't) the only one out there.
If you can't convince the market or the consumers you exist and are worth buying, why bother producing?
On the other hand, there are a whole bunch of reasons I prefer Debian to Redhat;
Debian has a better debug and design cycle (read longer and more thorough) such that it works on more systems and works more reliably.
Of course this is all word of mouth; I run only one Debian system, but I failed to get Red Hat, Mandrake, and Caldera to install on it. I tried Debian because it was touted as more reliable and better debugged, though almost an entire release cycle behind, and found that it worked.
Debian also has a nice update/package manager, apt, though a bit cryptic in UI, is very useful. Network aware and dependency aware! It's cool.
So Debian has a place; if a company existed that managed to market it correctly (just those two above make TCO for corporations much smaller) I'm sure it could survive, but you're right, it does boil down to marketing.
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
I predict that in the near future, all but three Linux distribution companies will be out of business, and they will rename their distros FreeLinux, OpenLinux, and NetLinux.
Options are good!
Most people will not rebuild the kernel when needed. If the install does not boot on their PC (like SUSE 7.1 died on my laptop) They will try to return the CDs to the store.
They do not have another PC around where they can build a new kernel. Or the option of trying RH 6.1 and have it come up the fine the first time.
If you play with enough distros on enough different hardware (and pretend to be a newbie) you will find that some run out of box and others do not on different hardware.
Try installing some distros on machines which only have a 3 ½ drive for example.
I have installed Slackware, Caldrea (yuk), Red Hat, Stampede, Storm, SUSE 6.4(ok), and 7.1(yuk), mandrake, TurboLinux and at least one other. (sorry, brain fry) and all had there good points and bad points. ( I wish I had enough machines to have them all installed at once!)
Competition will force improvements in all the remaining players
If someone could make X config easy/foolproof they would go a long way down the road to getting my recomendation!
That said, I do expect more distros to go down and lots of specialization to occur. Ultimately I hope that every distro which is sold to the general public will run on everything which is listed on the box.(as least to some extent) I also hope that lessons learned at companies like Stormix are not scattered in the wind. (and the software they wrote)
If Linux is to succeed in the desktop home market place, every sold distro must install on every machine, or at least not Kernel panic on first true boot.
Maybe in a couple of years we can survive with only a couple of distros but until then...
Now if I can only get Win98 to work correctly on the same laptop....
I disagree that Linux would benefit so much from having a limited selection. Part of the reason I find Linux so useful is the diversity of distributions, as well as their flexibility. If I were to say that all we needed was RedHat for servers and routers, Mandrake for desktop use, and Debian for hackers, I would probably be laughed out of the room.
:^>
Just like in any system in evolution, the product will not improve if the current 'superior' product kills off all the alternatives.
Currently I am working on a distribution that is designed to be highly specialized. (Not like the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink distros like RH.) Basicly, if you want to install my distro and use it as a web server, it will install and set up your httpd of choice, and NOTHING else. Same goes for FTP and SMTP, etc... For example, I would hate to be forced to install python when I'm only going to use nothing else but apache with perl scripts. *coughRedHatcough* That would be like being having to install VBScript into your web-browser when you simply don't want it there!!! *coughMicro$oftcough*
OF course, I also agree that some distros will inevitably fail in the evolution on Linux... and it will be good as long as more can pop up to keep evolution going.
Well, I feel I should give a disclaimer: I'm not in a thinking-type mood today. It must be the weather here in Lowell. I'll be back to my evil little self sometime soon.
I'm done with sigs. Sigs are lame.
Although they are dead, Debian could very easily use the programs that they wrote, assuming they are under the GPL...
I run RedHat myself, though from what I here they had a nice GUI configuratin tool. The best thing is they don't have to totaly die, Debian can pick up there tools and sort of keep them Alive for ever....
On a related note an interesting Idea for commercial software companies is to make it so that your software is released under the GPL/BSD Licence when/if you go under.... Like for instance if Corel dies, I'd like to continue using the first Program I ever used: WordPerfect...--Volrath50
hopefully this will be the start of a reduction in the number of available distros. linux would benefit a lot from having only a limited selection of solid instead of the current lineup.
-- Patience is a virtue, but impatience is an art.
I would be interested in seeing a company that makes a profit from a linux distro. The biggest company behind any distro is RedHat, and they make almost no money off sales. They try and offer support contracts and make their money there, but even that is slim. If you look at the numbers, they made a bunch of cash in their IPO and used it to pick up Cygnus, which actually _does_ make money off consulting and support contracts.
Small scale distros will have trouble surviving in the end though, because there is no profit model. That is the only way they relate to dotcoms.
-- Patience is a virtue, but impatience is an art.
Some of the FTP sites are still carrying Stormix ISO's, so if you're looking for an easy way to install Debian on a machine, better get them while you can.
Why would you install a dead linux distro ? So that updates would cease to be available along with support ? If you want an easy way to install Debian on a machine, the distribution for that is progeny
This is a good thing. The job market for geeks at the moment is still pretty tight. Better to lay off staff while there are jobs to be had at profitable concerns than to wait for a real recession to hand out pink slips.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
so if you're looking for an easy way to install Debian on a machine, better get them while you can.
The only actual version of Linux I could see withstanding the storm is sadly Redhat. Most other versions of Lin have crappy marketing teams.
As for installing Debian, why should someone use Debian versus any other version of Linux out there? The underlying facts remain, Linux is Linux no matter which version you use its all core code, some are easier to use than others, nothing more.
Its this method of thinking that disrupts the company's earnings in the future. Why would you hype up Debian and not Redhat, when in essence at the bare bones they're the same OS?
Factors such as these (judging one over the ther) have a lot of repurcussions on those small companies. PR people, marketers look at what the industry is up to, and fortunately fro Redhat they looked ahead and made more marketing pushes than any other versions of Lin around.
So another Lin company went under... Big deal, where was Slashdot's posting when Stampede all of the sudden disappeared?
No thanks I'll stick to my BSD's.
© Pimpfolio
360 degrees of Karma
Who the hell needs marketing? Example: Debian itself has basically zero marketing. Yet it's one of the more popular distros, and it's widely used.
More widely used by whom? Hobbyist? Sure developers that spent their time and effort, are sure glad to know hobbyist who often dl for free to tinker with their OS like their work. Now if only those same hobbyist could help pay for their work to keep it going.
Same with Slackware. The best marketing is word of mouth, and THAT is what matters in this community.
I think you should wake up and smell the coffee brewing. Sure word of mouth is great. Try explaining the differences between an unknown version of Linux your thinking of putting on a production network of your client, to your bosses who only have heard of Redhat (who you could actually get support and not wonder if they're going under next week).
Red Hat may have deep pockets, but that doesn't mean they'll necessarily succeed any more than anybody else.
You're kidding me? So far RedHat looks to be the last nab standing in the long run, unless Corel can make something happen. (which Corel truly sucks at. All they basically have is a name at this point, and if I'm not mistaken they may have already dropped out of the Linux game)
So who's next with an unsupportive rambling?
360 degrees of Karma
Custom made software usually is that way. I worked at a hotel for a while. Our software crashed continuously. Of course, they were using NT too.
But Yogi, the RIAA won't like that.
Redhat will be linux in the commercial sense, it has the momentum and the money and the public name. Fun to pretend but there is a reason that things gravitate towards fewer and fewer choices, economy of scale. You still be free to roll your own of course.
I blame that on the marketing department.
Even today, I'm not sure what exactly they have to offer (though I do know about their firewall stuff). More important is the fact that I don't know of any reason why I would choose Stormix over another product.
Stormix's problem wasn't that they had bad marketing, but that they never had a market they were trying to sell to. They never had a niche that they fit into to. Unless you count the part about the "commercial Debian" market. ;-).
Look at all the major commercial distros. They all have a specific niche that they fill. Mandrake: the desktop market. Red Hat and Suse: "enterprise servers" in the US and Europe, respectively, with Turbo Linux trying to do the same thing in Japan. Caldera: they have the Novell compatability. Slackware: powerful servers for people who know what they are doing, and not too far removed from the BSD's. Even Progeny is working on a niche besides being another "commercial Debian". They are working on something they call Linux NOW (Network On Workstations) which tries to combine the qualities of the server/pc network with the mainframe/thin client network, thus turning a network of commodity PC's into a single entity. Sounds like a great idea, aimed squarely at the "enterprise desktop". Of course there is some major overlap with all the distros, but they all do have a well defined niche that their marketing departments can and do cover.
I just never saw Stormix having that niche that they needed to be able to make enough money to survive. Someone else mentioned that they had a lack of corporate focus. That seems right on target. There just wasn't any obvious reason to use Storm over any other distro, for much anything. True, they did have the Storm Firewall, but that came a little too late and, IMO, wouldn't have been enough anyway. Great product, good company, but no market and therefore nowhere to market to and nothing to market to. This really can't be blamed on the marketing department.
Stormix did have some cool software. I've read about strmpkg (I think) which is a graphical frontend to apt-get, which is supposed to be pretty cool and being worked into Debian. Also, from all accounts that I've heard, their installer was a work of art (Haven't tried it myself recently, but will be doing so very soon.). I just hope that their stuff, particularly the installer, is under the GPL or somesuch license. It would be very cool if the Stormix installer made it into Debian in the near future, if only to stop all the complaints about Debian 'being hard to install'. But I've never heard anything about this, so I may be dreaming.
Anyway, that's the ultra double plus simple version of the way I see things.
You're mistaken, dude. *BSD all the way.
Give me games Iand I will give up windoze. Windoze is very bad, but until I can get decent, up to date games I just can't justifie installing a new OS on my computer.
adding to my need to keep using windoze are Professors at my school requiring me to use "educational" software that will only run on a Windoze computer.
until these problems are addressed I can't see how the market can support as many LINUX vendors as it does
the herd thinning will continue
nate
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
when did being an idiot become a good thing. does the linux community really want the windows mentality using the OS in mass numbers. MS problems aren't just created by the board of directors but by consumers needing to be hand fed and putting up with it. VB,Delphi, etc all contributed to the windows low quality slow, bloated crap. Long live slack. :)