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HP to Use Debian for Linux Development
wfrp01 writes: "Bruce Perens gives us the skinny on Linux Daily News. Notice his use of the term GNU/Linux in a business context." Of course, HP's printers are still shipping with Windows-only drivers... and Windows-only configuration tools... and described as "Linux-compatible" in their advertisements.
http://hpinkjet.sourceforge.net/ binaries and sourcecode for their own inkjet server. look around before posting. sigh
Of course if you really want a Linux-compatible printer, you buy a Lexmark. Their Z52 Linux driver dropped right in after I installed ghostscript, and even worked with USB.
Q: What does GNU/Linux mean?
A: GNU's not Unix Linux
Q: Could you elaborate?
A: GNU's not Unix's not Unix Linux
Q: That's odd.
A: RMS says it reminds people about their freedom.
Q: Of course, thank you.
I had to stay out of this decision, because I am obviously prejudiced. HP management went ahead and did the right thing without me.
Isn't this exactly WHY Perens works with HP!?! To help them make decisions and form their business direction with regards to Free Software?
Maybe someone can help clarify this. (Bruce?)
-Derek
My PhotoSmart 1218 seems to work fine with Linux and Windows. However, having said this, I would like to have HP do some official drivers for this printer to use every drop of the power of this printer- but then, knowing my luck, they don't own all the IP used in those printers and they can't make open sourced drivers for them.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
As several people have already pointed out, there are official drivers right now that work very well with Ghostscript. While these drivers are not quite open source, they come fairly close. No binary-only drivers like the Lexmark Z52, these come with full source and rights to do your own modifications. The one restriction keeping them from being fully dfsg compliant is the requirement that they be used only with HP printers. The nice engineers at HP are very aware of the advantages of moving to a true free software model, and are busy shepherding this through the corporate bureaucracy.
All in all, I'm pleased and impressed with HP's support of Linux and free software. Given the context they're operating in, I'm not surprised that it's taking time to do things right, and I'm willing to grant them that.
LILO boot: linux init=/usr/bin/emacs
...of course in a few years, we'll have:
"The new GNUNUNU/Linux"
...or if they decide to expand it again...
"The new GNUNUNUNU/Linux"
...and when it uses a government plane for personal matters...
"The new GNUNUNUNUSununu/Linux"
Okay - this is getting WAY too silly.
We've been working with HP's LaserJet division to improve support for their printers. Some of the work is starting to trickle over to the DeskJet Printers but that is a seperate division. Please have a look at http://hp.sourceforge.net for information. ben@valinux.com
Taco, please, for everybody's sake. Next time Michael posts some non-sequitor Microsoft bashing, liberally apply a clue stick to his head until he cries uncle.
ObTopic: Michael, do you honestly think these drivers would appear by some form of source code parthenogenesis? Patience.
We're not scare-mongering/This is really happening - Radiohead
This sig intentionally left blank.
I do, on one of those dreaded 700-series "Winprinters". I run my jobs through the reverse-engineered PPM utilities. They've had color support for well over a year, and have been included in some mainstream Linux distros for a while. Red Hat even has an entry in its Printtool for them that takes care of all the ghostscript-transformation rigamarole.
And the higher-end inkjets, of course, do PCL and are supported even better.
It's not great support, and it's not support from HP itself, but you can print to most modern HP inkjets these days.
As for config tools, there's been a Linux version of JetAdmin for some time now; also, their network printers from the 4000-range on up usually have web-based configuration these days which is also Linux compatible (and Solaris, and AIX and QNX and possibly even WebTV and Sega Dreamcast-compatible). Windows and Netware only need more elaborate config tools because with a few exceptions, client machines needed a print server to go through because the printers didn't support a protocol the client OS could speak to directly.
As for drivers, what's a Linux driver in this case? You can send PostScript right to any networked HP printer made in the last 3 years, and at least half of them from before that. What is missing are supported printcap entries for accessing advanced features like multiple trays, collating, sorting, duplexing and stapling. That would be nice to see.
You don't usually have to buy printer drivers either.
As an example with our HP LJ4050N, I got the PPD file from the W2K Postscript driver bundle, and installed it under CUPS. Works great: duplex, alternate paper trays, etc.
Check out CUPS and the LinuxPrinting.org Database
Perhaps that's because:
Thanks for the chuckles...
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CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
They provide an enhanced version of lpd that provides full functionallity for most of their latest printers (i.e. the Color LaserJet 4550, and the LaserJet 8150, which we use here at work). They also provide a gui replacement for lpr, gpr, that allows you to do printer configuration for each print job (i.e. duplex printing, print quality, etc), in addtion to setting defaults. Quite handy.
Actually, I think Agilent took that department with them when they split from HP, so you'd have to talk to them. I'm guessing they won't get a clue in this regard for at least a few more years, and will instead continue having NT-only HPLC controllers. (or so I understand it).
---
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
Of course, HP's printers are still shipping with Windows-only drivers... and Windows-only configuration tools... and described as "Linux-compatible" in their advertisements.
While this is true, HP has pledged support for ALL its printers, heck, Bruce even works for HP now. The fact that the printers are being advertised as Linux-compatible is a big bonus - it gets the name "Linux" out to the public at large. This is called branding.
We have waited a long time (at least I have) for things like this to come about. Cut HP some slack. They are a big company, it will take them time to change their packaging and processing to include Linux drivers on the discs that ship with the printers.
I am more of the position: "Hey HP! Thanks for doing this, I am going to support your company because you support my favoured OS!"
(Maybe I am just over-reacting here, or maybe I have become jaded by the number of unjust flames I have seen originating from slashdot...)
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
I prefer HP-UX hands down to any other Unix.
I consider HP-UX to be middle-of-the-road myself. It's head and shoulders above SCO or MP-RAS, but that's not saying much. It's about on par with AIX. It can't touch Linux or *BSD in terms of features, although it's more stable on its native hardware, of course.
With HP-UX, you may pay a bit more, but almost everything you need is right there on the OS install disk.
Except for strace, and lsof, and /proc, and gzip, and ssh, and perl5, and /dev/urandom (need to install EGD), and GNU patch, and GNU diff, and GNU make, and the ANSI C compiler (costs extra, but at least you still bundle the K&R C compiler so we can build gcc), and the X11 header files and libraries, and Apache (no biggie, everyone compiles it anyway), and a web browser (c'mon, lynx would be good), and dig/host, and fmt (I had to install it from GNU textutils). I can't remember whether lex and yacc are included or whether they're part of the ANSI C compiler kit, but I'm pretty sure they're not standard either. Oh, and how about a version of whois that doesn't have nic.ddn.mil hard-coded in it?
I can understand not including things like an IRC client, a choice of window managers, etc. But by not including the X11 headers and libraries, HP makes it damned hard to compensate for that.
(All this is based on HP-UX 10.20 -- in fact, I'm typing this from an HP 9000 model 715/100 running 10.20. 9.0x is even worse. I haven't used 11.x yet.)
So it's time for RMS to start using "GNU/GNU/Linux".
That would be GNG/Linux (Gnu's not GNU/Linux).
Kevin Fox
--
Kevin Fox
Is it really so hard to actually write a printing system from scratch that is of some use to man or beast?
Quit your bitching and do it then.
It's a neat little scanner, producing pretty decent quality scans (not as good as the new Nikon scanners, but ...). However, unlike it's SCSI predecessor, it doesn't use HP SCL, and there's no documentation, making completely useless under Linux - no support in SANE.
Anybody know if this situation is ever likely to change or how one might obtain documentation to fix it ???
Tim
I've been to the support pages and inquired about linux drivers. A few months ago, I got a variety of reasons for not having linux support for DeskJets. One of them being that linux was considered a varient of unix and printers on unix systems were considered to be outputting 50k+ pages a month. More than what the DeskJet was spec'd for. Didn't matter that I informed them I was using a linux box as a workstation. I then started e-mailing for developer support and got nowhere there. I even took the time to examine the comments in the latest Ghostscript code and found that the developer had an extremely difficult time getting info from HP to build a better driver.
HP deskjets, according to a technician I met at a recent tech conference, informed me that deskjets have a proprietary way of mixing ink on the page to produce high quality output. It's an example they use to explain why their print quality is better than say Epson even though the competitor may have a higher number of dpi on their product. This jives with the Ghostscript comments I read.
Getting the same bang for your buck with a laserjet is no big thing to do on linux. It's when you try to do it on a DeskJet that linux just can't compete and that issue rests solely on HP imho. Providing support on getting linux to run on a PC is one thing. Getting them to develop quality linux drivers for their consumer printers is another.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
You forgot lexmark.
Spoken like a true Sun bigot.
:)
HP is supporting Linux because it makes financial sense to do so, just like it makes sense to support Windows NT/2000.
This very question was raised at a meeting with a senior manager when I was an HP employee back in '98. His response, "... as long as we are making $10 billion a year in the Unix market, HP-UX will be around."
I guess I'm biased, having worked for HP before, but I've been doing Unix admin for 10 years on just about every Unix ever made and I prefer HP-UX hands down to any other Unix.
HP-UX is the most fully-featured out of the box Unix there is. Have you even installed Solaris recently? Hmm, no Solstice, no Veritas, no nothing. Might as well be SunOS 4.X, because with Sun, even the basics are extra. With HP-UX, you may pay a bit more, but almost everything you need is right there on the OS install disk.
Let's face it, HP isn't making billions per year in the Unix market by having a sucky Unix. They may not be number one right now, but things can change quickly. Sun better look over their shoulder, because while they spend all their time fighting Microsoft, HP and IBM are gaining ground again.
All IMHO, of course.
- Necron69
This succeeeding in totally confusing install scripts looking for a patch.
I had an old 6020i CD-R (back in '96)... had it replaced under warantee because it started producing nothing but coasters (and discs were still $3-5 at the time). The remanufactured one I got ended up the same way... so now it is just a slow 6x reader (more like a 4x with the slow seeks). Last year I found a class action suit against HP/Phillips for my drive (along with a couple other models). Signed up.
About two weeks ago, I came home to find a brand new Phillips CD-RW (32/8/4 or something) waiting for me... of course it happens to be an IDE drive, not SCSI... and I've long since replaced my CD-R with a nice Plextor CD-RW unit, but hey, now my linux box get upgraded from the old Sony 4x reader.
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Had mine for years, never had a problem with it. I've burned a couple of hundred disks with it, too. You have some weird heat/dust problem in your box? Or, try hooking it up to a different power cable. Could be a dodgy power supply.
Best Slashdot Co
So it's time for RMS to start using "GNU/GNU/Linux".
Shouldn't that be GNUNU/Linux?
or GNUNUNU/linux
or for you mathematicians:
___
GNU/Linux
HP has also Mac drivers... even some of MacOS X.
Gee, maybe they figured that Linux users could actually use the Internet and get the Linux drivers. You are aware that HP is the only printer company (at least that I know of) that is officially supporting Linux, don't you? Do a search for "linux" on the HP web pages and you get a lot of stuff. Do that on the Epson pages and you get zip. Look here for the actual open source drivers on sourceforge.
This was precisely the reason that I bought an HP printer recently when my Epson finally gave up the ghost.
So to Bruce: Know that at least in this one case, the fact that you're there and that HP is supporting Linux has helped an actual sale. Even if you insist on the silly "GNU/Linux" moniker, I can still respect that! :-)
Someone should create a form based template with a generic based letter with something like...
Sounds cheesy as all hell, but I'm sure customer service reps, and sales people would surely respond after getting slashdotted with a shitload of emails telling them to wake the fsck up.
Want Root?
I have a LaserJet 5M and I can configure it using WebJetDirect config for linux.
so there ARE config tools.
---
while i tend to see pretty much constant complaining about HP hardware (printers, etc.) in linux, everyone seems to forget that Hewlett Packard has been a pretty good supporter of linux for a while now...
i recently picked up another computer for my house and got a great deal on a Kayak PII-450 w/ SCSI. At first I was scared about hardware support but there's extensive documentation about all elements of their boxes.
hp-linux.org was a great resource for me, as well as HP's own documentation on linux support for various models.
and in case you're wondering, that site also has info on making stuff like your printers work. so stop whining and check it out, or for christ's sake write your own!
I think they are using Helix-Gnome for their development desktop too.
Someone you trust is one of us.
There is HP WebJetAdmin for Linux here.
And of course the old standby telnet is very useable under Linux.
As for drivers, the LJ 5/6 drivers that come with the last few RedHat releases work fine for me.
Phear The Phat Penguin
My eventual goal was to port the whole thing to C++/Gtk--, non-LPR:NG based setups and the other UNIX systems we supported as long as Gtk was available on them. All the stuff I did was very prototype-level code and it doesn't seem to have advanced at all since I left the company. You can find the drivers at http://www.printers.ibm.com/r5psc.NSF/Web/nppsdr.
Of course, IBM Austin's been cranking out a lot of printer drivers by porting the old OS/2 OMNI driver to GhostScript. If you watch freshmeat or lwn.net at all, you'll see new releases of this driver announced at regular intervals.
Driving printers is a major area where Linux lags behind Windows and OS/2 -- I got to work on those archetectures as well, while in PSC, and the design of the printer subsystem is actually pretty slick. X has Xprt, which seems to do approximatley the same thing, but no one has adopted it. Fortunately we're starting to see movement in this arena at the widget library level, which is better than nothing. I'd still like to see an elegant print rendering system that doesn't require any specific widget set to work, though.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Isn't that the truth ... the last HP product I ever bought was a HP 7110i CDRW ... I had it replaced *3* times during my waranty period ... and about a month after that period expired it broke again ... I complained and told them I wanted a 7200 series as a replacement not another crappy 7110 series but the service guys refused saying "These units are really very good." BULLSHIT! :) Send me one that works then [end rant]
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
Hey I hacked your so-called "l33t" firewall. You really need to learn how to properly set up a firewall. I mean I don't know *anything* about firewalling but I could probably do a better job. Not that it was worthwhile in the first place. All it had was some sick German porn and crappy MP3s, all of which I had anyways.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
shoot, if a printer is networkable and speaks postscript, are the tools for printer configuration that ship with linux not good enough already? Not trying to be a troll, just an honest question.
NO CARRIER
shoot, if a printer is networkable and speaks postscript, are the tools for printer configuration that ship with linux not good enough already?
Last time I checked, a CMYK (i.e. color) laser printer cost well into four figures, too much for a home consumer's budget. Many of the CMYK inkjet printers are often called "GDI" printers (i.e. Winprinters), which means they connect through a parallel port and speak not PCL, not PostScript, but a proprietary language whose only primitive is horizontal strips of pixels one print-head tall. This is why you need (1) Ghostscript to render PS files to bitmaps, and (2) the printer driver to send the bitmaps to the printer. Printer makers often neglect to specify the interface from the computer to the printer, making it hard to develop (2).
Will I retire or break 10K?
The problem is that many (maybe even all of the current HP models) low cost inkjets (and some lasers from other brands) use a host based print engine to reach the highest resolution and color depths, and especially the best speed. Most are limited to about 300x300 in DOS, Linux, or any other operating system that doesn't have the drivers to print full speed and full resolution. Because networked printers generally are used by workgroups, they are more expensive and capable of higher loads, and thus have more processing power built in. But for ink jets (and many other parallel/USB/single user printers), you can use the host computer to do complex processing to offset costs. But Linux cannot do that processing unless the printer manufacturer releases the details necessary to process the print jobs.
When things like motherboards, hard drives, and whatever other hardware you can imagine started coming out with stupid "Windows Compatible" stickers on them, I thought to myself "how stupid!".
Hardware doesn't need to be "Whatever Compatible". The software should be able to support the hardware.
It'd be like Chevron claiming that Techroline is Ford compatible. Would all Chevy owners start crying foul?!?!? I think not. But if Chevron wants to be stupid enough to cater to just one automobile maker, it would only go to show their ignorance.
Are Linux and Windows Pentium compatible? Yes. The software dictates the compatibility, not the other way around.
Troll.
Besides, how else would you do it? That's the Unix way is to cruft things together.
/Brian
Of course, if HP did supply Linux drivers, you'd bitch if they weren't open source, or bitch that they didn't work right... and you'd bitch that no one needs a configuration tool, just give me a text file to edit.
They're just saving themselves time and money, and letting the h4x0rs do the work. Seems pretty smart to me.
Huh? What alternate universe did you get your copy of Debian from? Or more importantly, where do I get a chicken like that?
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Debian, but its installation can't touch those of Mandrake, Red Hat, and SuSE. While the install has come a long way, it is far from "chicken-friendly". The closest I've seen to claiming that title was Mandrake 8.0. Of course, I wasn't all that impressed with what the install left me with, it was definitely the easiest I've ever seen.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
Amen! It amazes HP-UX has lasted this long. HP even pushes MS's Windows on HP hardware more than they push HP's Unix on HP hardware.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
Isn't that the way is usually is ? Things are not Linux compatible.. linux is -compatible instead :)
Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities.
Aristotele
Well, if HP and Bruce are serious about the "real" name, I should start seeing GNUs spray-painted on the sidewalks next to IBM's penguins, right?
sulli
RTFJ.
Dealing with printer drivers on Linux, I've had the most success using the CUPS printer system. It replaces the standard Unix lp* tools, adds a neat web interface for printer configuration, ships with a heap of drivers supporting most of available laser printers. Support for spooling via samba is also possible.
^]:wq!^M
Look here for the list. Most multifunction models supported...
It has been my experience that most enterprise enviroments seem to gravitate tward comercially supported distributions (ie: redhat, with a specific single company behind it), primarily because there is a liabiility issue with doing otherwise. "If something goes wrong, who are you going to sue?". This was the argument I got when I was told the company I work for would deploy only Redhat Linux (ie the distribution).
I wonder if HPs choice here will affect what is deployed into enterprise enviroments...?
--CTH
--
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Last I checked, the box was still running, even though the project was scrapped and the sysadmin moved to a different position over two years ago.
Help find a cure for Gidget.
God bless those Albino Ninjas...
It's good HP is facing Linux now. I work for them (up until 3pm today, THANKS FOR THE LAYOFF CARLY!) and it's been a real pain in the booty explaining to people that no the hp equipment isn't supported for linux, but "most likely" it will work or there's a driver with your distro. HP's been making alot of bad decisions lately (besides closing operations in this state and offering to move me to kentucky, YEAH RIGHT, let me get right on that). The quality of support on products has gone to null, the products themselves aren't as good as they were (at least with the lower end stuff). One thing that's been hp's niche is what the name says, expensive but you get what you pay for. Now it's kind of hit and miss as far as the quality goes. Anyways, my bloody point is it's nice to see them making a decision that heads in the right direction. My advice to any /.'s though is stay away from anything HP that's priced the same as the competitors, it's junk. The stuff you lay down some green for is still the quality products you've come to expect from HP.
Beware blue cats moving at