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Palm In Trouble?
spblat writes "News.com reports that Palm, Inc. is in a bit of a spot. A hardware glut, a portal that's losing money, an OS licensing model that doesn't generate enough revenue, oh my! Could this be the beginning of the end for Palm?" Apparently people aren't buying as many Palms now that the economy has slowed down. To say nothing of the fact that many Wince devices are better. Still waiting to see the latest Sony Clie to see if PalmOS can catch up.
Well, for me it gives me something to do on the subway to work -- I can read a book, play a game, look at my calendar and read the New York Times all on a device that I can put easily in my pocket (which is important to me because I rarely have a bag or briefcase with me). I don't think Internet capability is all that important because there are good off-line Web browsers -- I, for example, download the New York Times in html format using my PC, transfer it to my Handspring and can read it on the way to work. Much easier than having to deal with a physical newspaper on the subway.
The power use issue isn't as bad as some would make it out to be. Since I didn't know how long it would go between recharges, I decided to not recharge my Casio E-125 until it started to use the backup battery (something the Compaq doesn't have, btw). With the screen on near max brightness, I got a full workweek out of it. For those who think a week isn't enough, the charger can be removed from the cradle for on the road charging and you can get spare batteries. Since it has a backup battery, you can swap main batteries without data loss. Not as good as a Palm, but good enough for me.
I couldn't use it for a week with the modem, but it hasn't been an issue for me...yet.
Chris
1. Hire consultants!
2. Fire the CEO!
3. Hire consultants to hire a new CEO! (preferably someone dynamic who's not afraid to axe all of our good employees!)
4. Hire a new PR firm to issue a zillion press releases about our new CEO and our new direction
5. Change everything just in time for the market to change again.
(rinse, repeat)
"Tension is the great integrity" -- R. Buckminster Fuller
The reason the Wince devices are finally catching up is that handheld technology has reached a point where Palm's philosophy of (relatively) cheap and simple is no longer necessary. Handhelds can have large storage, hi-res color graphics, accessory ports and the like and still have good battery life and be (again, relatively) cheap and useful.
Many people have often pointed out that MS rarely gets anything right on the first try. But by the 3rd iteration or so, the competetion is in trouble. Look at Office, DirectX, and Windows itself. The Wince devices are entering their 3rd generation but Palm's are just now getting past their early limitations (storage space, expandability, and screen resolution being the major sticking points).
Like 'Taco said, the next Clie and similar Palm devices are Palm's 'last, best hope' for keeping their dominant market position.
(Working harder on cooperating with Handspring probably wouldn't hurt....)
Depends on what you want I suppose. My complaints against WinCE is that it basically requires a very fast processor and a lot of memory for a handheld because the environment is pretty fat, unlike a Palm. It also basically demands a color display because the user interface kinda stinks in monochrome, unlike a Palm. Those two things mean that WinCE devices tend to cost several times what a Palm of similar capabilities can, and also they have a lot shorter battery life, which is a pain in the butt. Most of the more powerful WinCE devices are also bigger and heavier than Palms are. And in my opinion, the Palm user interface is still better designed for a handheld than WinCE, probably because it really was designed from scratch for that sort of device and not carrying a lot of baggage from a desktop ancestor/sibling. There may be certain high end applications for which a WinCE device can do more than a Palm, but once you start getting into that area, you have to start looking at the smaller x86 notebooks instead of a WinCE device...
:-)
So for my money, PalmOS is my choice over WinCE. Maybe a Linux based handheld in the future though, just because it would be cooler than hell and be more like my desktop...
I don't think you can justify saying that Palm's losing money because of the superiority of WinCE devices when Palm-based PDAs still have a 85% market share of the PDA market, and that's new purchases, not just the installed base, which is even more favorable to Palm.
No, if I had to guess I'd say the reason for the slowdown is because most people already have the palm that suits them, be it V/Vx, IIIx, m100, or VII, and the new models aren't enough to convince them to spend $300 for an incremental upgrade.
Hardware expansion has always underdelivered on all the PDAs, so springboard, MMC, and MemoryStick slots don't carry enough incentive to upgrade.
I love my palm, as does everyone I know who owns one. The problem is that we love the palms that we have, so we're not spending money to buy new ones.
Kevin Fox
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Kevin Fox
I personally would like to see PDA's head in the direction of acting as a glarified "controller/interface" of electronic devices I place about my person - in that role, I see Palm as being a lot better suited than other PDA platforms.
Palms are simple, have a great form factor with a minimal (but not too minimal) screen, and good connectivity options (with an IR, seral, and direct expansion ports). They would make the ideal small interface to manage just about any other small device I have on my person - they could manage images in a digital camera. They could manage images stored in a portable digital camera storage device (which I would love for someone to build, hello stupid companies!)
Such a thing could show me details of how my engine was running that day. It could act as a master controller for my house. It could tell my cell phone to dial a particular number. It could present a larger interface for my thumbnail sized 400mb MP3 player so I can adjust my playlist on the fly and see what sond is currently playing.
In short, I want my PDA to do almost nothing except provide a lightweight decently sized interface to all the other devices around me that have been miniturized beyond the point where they can present a usable interface. The PDA is something small enough that I always have with me (and perhaps never need to charge), even as all the other devices I carry around with me at different times change in features offered.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Psions.
Last time I heard, true multitasking. My original 5 has 8 MB, the MX has 16 and an S7 32. All have larger screens. All have slower processors, too, though you wouldn't know most of the time.
All have excellent battery life.
Please remember, MS don't make the things! They might have come up with specs and the OS but not the hardware.
I'm still baffled why anyone buys those CE things. An iPaq, which seems to be getting all the attention, is pretty much the same size as a Psion 5 for goodness' sakes!
Microsoft and their partners might have some odd ideas about these things - but that doesn't mean that they've got everything wrong or that the PalmOS' level of simplicity is necessarily right, just that WinCE and its hardware isn't a particularly good idea in some ways.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
--bdj
These people cleary have no idea how to report on business. How can you say "Palm, a company that launched a very successful initial public offering just 14 months ago." with one breathe, then say "generating $1 billion a year in sales and was still enjoying 100 percent year-over-year growth.
" in the next?
But let's focus on the company itself. Why they are in trouble, and what can bo done to fix it.
Palm, Inc has had some focus problems since USR (and later, 3com) bought them out. The initial device had great ideas, but they've only incrementally improved them since then. Bluetooth to control other devices (such as Cell, which cry out for a proper Palm interface), internal NiMH rechargeables (Palm V has this -- they all should), and a better software bundle (including a learning IrRemote) would add much to the value of the device.
The new models won't sell. There are no new features which require upgrades. Even my Palm IIIe (limited to 2mb ram) is enough. The new m100 series are ugly, expensive, and don't offer an advantage to Palm II and Palm V users. Since the software is good, and the current harhdware is perfect, they need to add new features (again, cell phone control, tv/vcr/dvd control, etc, would be great). You may not pay 500$ for a toy organizer, but you'd pay for it if you could control your entertoinment centre, X.10 devices, cell phone, and more from one device which also happened to be a great organizer.
Like 3Dfx, they want to do it all -- make the OS, maxe the device, provide CDPD access for Palm VII users, etc. And like 3Dfx, they are finding that their competitors (who can focus on the device, or the OS, etc) are eating their lunch. If they spun off the portal, ISP, and device making, they could become the MS of handhelds (but it's probably too late for that). If they focus on what they are good at (good software which should have little development costs, good hardware which can be mass produced), they will become profitable!
They are too greedy. 500$ USD for what, exactly? An electronic organizer? The Palm IIIe sells for ~200$ Cdn. At that price, practically everyone can afford one (like VCRs or TVs). If Palm could lower prices and raise awareness, they could bring a lot more customers into the fold. And they could also add features to the higher ond models which some customers would love!
Palm computing has all the right stuff for success. It's still fairly young for a business on its own (and everynew business is guaranteed 5 years of hardship when they start, before the kinks are worked out). If they focus on their target consumers (think executives and college students), then add features that power users and professionals want (on the higher end), they can have a comprehensive product line. And if they ditch the overhead of the rest of their company (portals, ISP service), they can make a killing.
A renamed Palm III in an uglier case with changeable faceplates is not a reason to spend a few hundred $$s.
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
I tried someone else's unit that had a wireless modem. It didn't work indoors. What's the point of something that can't hook up to the Internet?
I prefer to carry around my laptop, which has 2GB of e-mail from the past seven years. And I carry around a spiral notebook and pen, because I find it to be the best way to record ideas and notes.
I suppose a palmtop could be useful for those who would otherwise need a day-timer -- those with complex calendars and extensive phone directories. For me, I just don't get it -- at least not until it can hook up to the Internet and has high enough resolution to read PDF files.
Maybe someone can tell me what I'm missing.
I have a Palm III from about 2 years ago. Here's why I'm still using it:
1. It still does everything I need it to
2. I'm not going to spend $500 for a color version, or on any handheld short of one with a small PC's power. At $500 I could almost buy an iMac or a cheap PC; a handheld with 8mb RAM/storage isn't enough of an incentive.
I'm relieved that the "planned obsolescence" thing didn't happen with the Palm I still use. I'm tired of upgrading hardware every 18 months. I don't need to play Quake on my handheld.
I'm sorry Palm is having trouble, because their product is good, but if they were counting on me to pitch my III for a V or a VII when the III still worked fine, then their business model had a fatal flaw, and one that this crisis they're facing will surely correct, one way or the other.
TomatoMan
-- http://frobnosticate.com
Editing documents/spreadsheets on a PDA is really fairly easy--I'd never write a 10 page report on one, but for proofreading/editing pre-existing documents it's great. I've also used it for some quick spreadsheet calculations in about 5 minutes that my graphing calculator would take a good 15-20 minutes to program. These were generally done at times where I wouldn't be hauling around a laptop.
About the "saving memory" part: since the PocketPC OS has software such as a word processor/spreadsheet built into the ROM, it takes up no additional storage space. The money aspect was another issue for me, though. By the time I had bought the software to get a lower priced Palm up to the level I wanted, I would have paid just as much as I did for my Cassiopeia.
Finally, for the faster processor, it helps:
For people that actually want the power of a real PC without carrying around a laptop, Pocket PCs are great. For people that just want a PDA at a more reasonable price, Palm is the way to go.
~=Keelor
m505 vs. EM500
Both:
m505 advantages:
EM500 advantages:
As far as battery life goes, I've never had the battery run out on me during a day of heavy use (such as an 8 hour car trip). So it's hardly a problem for me. Then again, I don't listen to MP3s and read a book at the same time, which would decrease the life.
Generally, I would say that the smaller form factor is the only reason I would go with the m505 over the EM500. Personally, since I wouldn't carry either around in my pocket all day, the large size isn't a big issue.
As has been commented on, Palm should be making a killing on Microsoft by offering stuff like the m505 at a much lower price. When I can get a processor that's 5 times as fast, with twice the memory at the same price (even better for me, since I got a EM500 with a 28 MB memory card for $300), I don't see a good reason to go with an m505.
Of course, places like Brighthand show why Palm could continue to proceed--much of the market and resellers are effectively ignoring the PocketPC, and so many reviews of the m505 have only focused on how much better they are than previous Palms--not the fact that they've now managed to catch up with Pocket PCs released a half year ago (in my opinion).
~=Keelor
I think you hit the nail on the head here ... they've come out with lots of new models -- but none of them *DO ANYTHING NEW*. I've owned 3 pdas in my life, a US Robotics Pilot 1000, a visor deluxe, and a Palm Vx ... and I gotta tell ya the palm VX is *perfect*. Its light, its .4 inches thick -- I've got a wallet case for it thats no bigger then a regular wallet -- and it stays charged for weeks at a time! The only difference between my Vx and my pilot 1000's (made in 1996) is how much ram they have and their shape ... talk about progress
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
The interesting thing is that I used to own a Palm IIIc, then "upgraded" to a Compaq iPAQ. I've switched back to Palm now, for the following reasons:
Palm's battery life is *much* better.
WinCE/PocketPC still has some usability issues as far as interface design is concerned.
Far too much "demoware" and "shareware" software in the WinCE world.
I *don't* want to deal with a "file explorer" on my PDA when trying to launch a program.
WinCE/PocketPC doesn't play nice with non-Microsoft OSes
PocketPCs are just that: an attempt to squeeze a relatively full-featured computer into a pocket form factor. Only I don't want to mess with registry entries, file explorers, and the like while using a PDA. Given their relatively high-powered CPUs and capabilities, they *suck* power like nobody's business. I was used to charging my Palm IIIc once every month or so. I left my iPAQ off for about a week (went on vacation), and when I returned, the battery was dead and all my contacts, notes, and software was gone (my own fault... but still, 6 days, starting with a full charge, and the unit turned *off*?!)
I've switched to a predominantly Linux environment at home, and the PocketPC, while supporting TCP/IP, doesn't sync with anything except Microsoft's Windows-based ActiveSync tools. On the other hand, there is support for the Palm on most major computing platforms, including MacOS and Linux.
For those that want an all-in-one MP3 player, contact list, organizer, and don't mind being trapped in Windows, then the PocketPC might be for you... Personally though, I'd rather have a Palm for a PDA, and save the MP3/multimedia functions for a dedicated MP3 player. I personally own and love the Iomega HipZip MP3 player - it's USB based, and works wonderfully under Windows, MacOS 9, Mac OS X and Linux (in OS X and Linux, it appears as a simple SCSI drive).
Does anyone here want to buy a iPAQ 3650 w/USB cradle, CF sleeve, serial adapter, manuals, disks, etc? In great condition... ;)
In my mind, at least, the real problem is that they really aren't that useful. I have recently acquired a Palm V at no cost to me (no I didn't steal it), and while it is funny as hell to play with, any and all actually useful functions it has are much better done with pen(cil) and paper. Honestly. And all the "syncrhonizing with the desktop" crap means that you either have to use the Palm desktop to keep your schedule, or be using Outlook, both of which I'd rather not do. In fact, the only real use I've found for it is reading free books, as essentially every single book that is old enough to not be copyrighted can be gotten for free in a format for palm (or converted from txt ala Gutenberg), and it is actually not that bad reading off of a palm (much better then slowly scrolling down a txt on the computer). But essentially, the palm is an expensive gameboy for adults.
In my mind, the thing that will make any handheld device actually worth it is as follows:
1. A *lot* more memory (whatever happened to those 300mb drives the size of credit cards that IBM was doing?)
2. Voice recognition (Graffiti is okay, but the palm needs something akin to dictation for input to be truly useful)
3. Some level of AI (this is sort of attached to the voice recognition part, but essentially I want to be able to say "take me to such-and-such a program" and it takes me there).
Notice how "color" and "net-access" aren't on that list. Well net access has some usability, but the fact that people are obsessed with color kind of irritates me. Oh well, I'll save that for another rant....
Palms are just toys, Windows CE devices are just toys, and Windows CE makes a better toy.
Now how is Palm superior again?
I also admit that Windows CE is unstable and slow, but so is windows, and people just accept that instead of using something else. So, if you want a toy, get Windows CE instead of Palm... For those of you that want a fully featured computer designed for professionals, that will also fit in your pocket, check out Psion. (www.psionusa.com)
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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
You'd think that after a while, the bulk of consumers that wanted these things would already have them. Take me for example: I bought a Palm IIIx about a year ago and I have no reason to upgrade.
So computer sales are down. The the internet is going under. The sky is falling. What else is new? Geesh...
Horribly disfiguring problem discovered...find out tonight at 11!
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Wooden armaments to battle your imaginary foes!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I bought an IPAQ 3650 yesterday for $50, yes FIFTY dollars more than Handspring is selling their color palm device for.
In return, I get a 320x240 screen instead of a 160x160, it can play MP3s. It can run MAME and Nintendo emulators. It can record my voice at a touch of a button. I can actually read books off of it without getting eye sore. It has 32 megs of memory as opposed to 8, (and yes, while WinCE programs are larger, that still means I have significantly more space to store data on).
It even comes with QStart, which gives a palm-like user interface, if you're really THAT terrified of using a menu system on a handheld.
Its not surprising to me at all that Palm is in trouble. No matter how you feel about Microsoft and WinCE devices; where the hell is all that money going? If I can spend $500 and get the amazing hardware i'm holding in my hand, I will never, ever spend $450 for the handware I get with a color palm device.
I own two Win CE devices (both HPs) and one Palm Pilot.
Even though I have more fun 'n' games stuff for the Win CE boxes and they have color, sound and more processing power, over time I have used them so infrequently that their batteries have been allowed to nearly die.
Bottom line: although the Win CE's look more fun, the old monochrome Palm Pilot Professional just does the job better. The Palm is the one that rides in my pocket. Not anywhere as snazzy, but it's just a lot more solid.
I can't agree with CmdrTaco on this one at all. And I feel kind of foolish having to say that, because I've spent a lot more money on the HPs than on the Palm. I guess not only magpies are attracted to the shiny and new.
Palm has always been the leader of the field because its engineers have the best understanding of ergonomics. They still do. After all, what most people want is a device so slim they don't even know they're carrying it, and a device so easy to use that they don't have to read the manual.
Give it another year, and when the talk of recession is over, Palm will be loving it again.
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stop using my palm on a regular basis.
Oh, wait. You're talking about pdas. Nevermind. My mistake.
If you smoke after sex, you're doing it too fast.
Also, the power use issues on them won't go away. They have true multitasking, lots of memory and fast processors. While I'd normally say this is good, it is such a drain on batteries that they just can't hold up to Palm devices. They need big expensive batteries just to get acceptable lifespan, whereas Palms can last much longer on a single charge.
Making lightweight devices just isn't Micro$oft's strong point. The only way that Palm can lose is by making their new devices so expensive that they look like Wince competitors. Oh wait, they are doing that. Oh well, I can't help it if they hang themselves when they have the better product.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
WindowsCE is NOT a dumbed down version of Windows. The 9x or NT/2K kernels will not boot on a MIPS or SH3 processor. WinCE was designed from the GROUND UP specifically for portable devices. I've had a WinCE device, as well as a Palm III for over a year now, and I can honestly say that the backlit screen on the WinCE device is in fact, more intuitive and easier to read than the recycled GameBoy screen in the Palm. As far as WinCE being crappy, prove it. My experience has been nothing but pleasurable, and I've yet to see a Palm that can:
Play MP3's
Play MPEG movies
open office files
display REAL web pages, and not some clipped text-only crap
out of the box. PalmOS simply cannot compete with these features that come standard with EVERY WinCE device.
You might not like MS, but there's no reason to FABRICATE LIES about their products in order to show them in a poor light.
Slashdot: Open Source, Closed Minds.