Slashdot Mirror
On the Question of Handhelds: iPaq Best?
A reader writes "I've been wanting to get a Linux based handheld, and was
trying to decide between an iPaq and a Yopy. This article about the Yopy
has pretty well convinced me the iPaq is the way to go, but I'm
hoping some /.ers might have some additional insight before I drop
a bit of serious cash. I'm a poor student, and can't afford to make
a mistake here."
That being said, they have supposedly fixed the dust problem by adding screen gaskets. I don't have one of these newer models so I can't comment.
The single button problem does make gaming impossible. Can't even play a decent game of Doom; Quake is a chore also. Folks are working on gamepad controllers to get around this problem.
Speaker click is very irritating, but the excellent sound when using the device with headphones (which is how I normally listen to music and movies) more than makes up for it.
The worst thing is size. A naked iPaq is a thing of beauty. Sure, it's bigger than a Palm (not by that much) - but hell, look at all it can do! A naked iPaq is a very good thing.
As soon as you slip an expansion jacket on it, forget about it, it's a brick. There are after-market modifications you can make to the sleeves (or pay someone else to) to slim them down. I'm working on mine right now.
Palms are great, and if all your mobile needs are met by one, fantastic. I for one love the expansion possibilities and features of my iPaq, whether it be running WinCE or Linux.
--
I still use my upgraded MP2000 every day and get quite a kick out of explaining to people just how cool it really is. It is not pocket-sized, but the monster screen size makes up for this. It is a shame that this box was killed because it really was the ultimate student PDA (you could actually _write_ your class notes during class and then go back over the recognition later.)
IIRC The stylus silo has a hole in it for some reason, theres lots of ways for dust to get inside any device, but this is a particular nasty flaw. The monochrome version of the IPaq has this fixed, but for some reason they haven't fixed the colour version.
---
--
Insert Witty Sig Here
Get a palm if you want an organizer. Get an iPaq if you want a computer.
The issue is nicely focused here. As a full-fledged development machine, the iPaq sucks. For most full-scale application work, the iPaq sucks. So do most desktops for that matter.
iPaq is more of a computer than a Palm, of course. But the question then is whether you need a computer at your palm.
So, its like this. When I need to do my organization and routine clicking to add numbers, the palm and iPaq perform about as well, and are both equally convenient at my palm. When I need to use a computer, the iPaq performs better than the palm, but both perform equally poorly. I would far prefer to use a computer, and don't usually need it at my palm.
In this sense, iPaq seems like too much and not enough.
The box that the handera is packaged in claims that it has MP3 support. I'd guess it would have to be a CF card, but there is no further info in the box to tell me where I can order any of the accessories they claim to support on the box (they claimed a couple other things on the box that I was skeptical of as well).
Other "useful" info:
the CD is Windows only...and some of the Handera licenced software on the CD can only be loaded on a PC. This is a real bite, since one of the vendors even has a Mac and a Linux version of their software. No info was included on how to transfer the license to a version that I could use. (I refuse to load Windows on a box just so I can load an app onto my PDA)
I had to download the latest Palm Desktop software for my Mac to sync anything to it. (note that there was no indication in the included materials of how to do this or even that this would work, even though they claim Mac support on the box.) I was also able to use Pilot Link under Linux on my Vaio. I had to use the serial port though...in limited playing I couldn't get it to sync over IR. I'm sure I had something set up wrong on my laptop though. After reading through the Inrared-HOWTO and doing some google searches, I just gave up and plugged in the Viao dongle thing with the serial port on it, and synced with that without problems.
There's a wonderful review at MemoWare that you should definitely read if you're thinking about buying one. I couldn't sift through all the marketing BS at handera's website to figure out what it could and couldn't do. After reading the PDA newsgroups and this review, I was convinced that my money would not be wasted buying one. After getting one, I am convinced that it was worth the money. (second one is on order)
YMMV,
Michael
I've just purchased a Handspring Visor Platinum a couple months ago (and *then* they drop the price down to $250) and it works great. It runs PalmOS 3.5 out of the box, which is what you will find most apps developed for. There is a lot of software and development options, including open source stuff. Is it really that critical that you have Linux on there? I dont know the price tag of the iPaq, but frankly I would seriously consider some of the PalmOS hardware as well. Its really quite nice. I've just started to develop on it, and its not any harder than elsewhere, except code bloat can become a problem if you dont watch it.
I dont have hands on experience with the new Palm M500 and 505, but my boss at work has a 505 (which is color with PalmOS 4.0 native i believe) and loves it to death. The Platinum and M505 both have 33mHz Dragonball processors and 8 megs of RAM, plus expansion room. Especially for the Visors, with the Springboard expansions. Reference to Handspring for their information and savings offers. I really like them so far.
Just my 0.2 cents.
http://thechubbyferret.net - Ferret pictures and informative links.
Backing and synching it up is very nice. Just drop it in the cradle and hit the button. Various gnome apps have conduits to palm apps, so your calendar and address card list get moved over to useful apps. Your memos also get copied over and can be edited in your favorite editor. I also have my palm set to back up so if the batteries die I don't lose everything.
On the down sides, there have been times when I've wanted to program in Perl or Java. If you want to do an OS upgrade, you now need Windows to do it (Used to be you could do it from Linux, but that doesn't work for the latest one.)
I'm also a bit pissed off at Palm for charging me for the last OS upgrade. I wouldn't be except that the upgrade was necessary for the correct working of the device. Until I installed the latest OS upgrade, alarms wouldn't sound until I powered the palm on, and it was losing about 20 minutes a day on the system clock. The last OS upgrade fixed all that.
These days you can get a Palm III for about $100. The environment is open and easy to write programs for. For what the palm does, it does it very well. The IPAQ and other type devices have that nerdly "Cool" factor going for them, though. That may end up being the deciding factor for a lot of readers.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Also, the Agenda people seem like they are heading in the right direction. Someone brought up a good point about the iPaq (not good enough, to me, to not buy one) in that you still pay a M$ tax on the device even when planning on loading Linux. If you wanted to look at a pure zealot's handheld, I think the Agenda would be better. I know there's no color, yet, but it runs Linux, you can flash new kernel's to it as well as software. Only thing that I never have seen about agenda is if it sync's with either evolution or some other Linux PIM app. I see that they have sync software for Linux, but they don't say what it syncs with. Be nice if you could use the same palm support with the agenda since if you can use the same software to transfer it, it would work with every Linux pim that already works with Palm.
Gorkman
The joystick and buttons are crap. Not only are they useless for games (see earlier post), they aren't very robust feeling.
Compaq has sealed up the hole in the stylus silo in later models 3650 and all 3670s. They will fix any dusty screen problems by warranty for free regardless of how long you've had it.
----------------------
To resolve these complaints, install the familiar linux distribution :-)
;) :-)
.deb files) and remote control it with vnc. Someone recently got apache+php going on it so you can serve up some pages if you like. Also lirc support now coming so I can taunt my wife by changing tv channels with ipaq. The linux environment opens it up and allows it to behave (and be viewed) very differently!
Then you can:
1. Use a Gravis Stinger gamepad and play xmame/snes games
2. Hear no clicking (although you can hear a mp3 or icecast/shoutcast stream with Scream)
3. Dust still a problem but Compaq willing to fix if you're willing to part with it - pay for shipping only.
4. Sleeve does make it bigger..and far more powerful! With pcmcia sleeve, I walk around the house on the internet, using dillo or Konq/e to surf the net while listening to tunes (see 2). Plus my nfs share to my linux box gives me mucho space
5. Need more software? Write your own quickly with python and gtk
6. Bill may not appreciate it but you will!
And at the end of the day, it's now a full-fledged computer. I can ssh into my ipaq from work while it sits at home, upgrade it with new ipkgs (think debian
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Regarding gamepads, see http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/HardwareProjects
Scroll down to Gravis Stinger and/or SpaceOrb 360 and salt to taste. I use both on my ipaq.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
...then I can think of better ways you can spend your money.
Personally, I can only see a few reasons why you as a student would need one:
Personally, I own a Visor. After spending 3 weeks playing with it, going "This is so cool!", I put it on the shelf and haven't touched it since. I discovered that I didn't really need it, I just taken in by its coolness. If you truly need a PDA, then you probably already know what your specific needs in a PDA are, and you should act accordingly. If you're like I was, and just want it for the geek factor, you'll be wasting your money no matter what you buy.
I seriously considered an iPaq but ended up getting a palm, and (half a school year later) I'm happy I made that choice. iPaq's are nice devices, color screen, etc.... but think: what are you going to be doing that requires color? Furhtermore, what are you going to be doing that REQUIRES Linux? Palm's are easy to write apps for in Linux or any other OS, and they're much cheaper (= more money for that upgrade you've wanted). I got a Palm m100 handheld for $150 and a keyboard for $100. I found that even writing fast enough to give me a cramp wasn't fast enough for handwriting recognition, it's due to the limited space available on a screen. If you're going to be taking notes (like I do with my Palm), you'll NEED a keyboard. The Palm one works perfectly. Seriously, when you consider that Palm's have a perfectly good notepad-ish application for typing, and a spreadsheet app can be purchased for ~$30, you've got a computer that's every bit as good at taking notes as a iPaq for I'm not going to be changing the way I take notes (or at least I'm not planning on it), and my Palm's put up with nearly a year of abuse with no signs of wear. I'm finishing my freshman year of HS now, and I'm planning to use my Palm all the way through University. It's that good. Tim
- You can't press more than one button at a time. This makes gaming nearly impossible.
- The speaker "clicks" as the little amplifier turns on whenever it needs to make a sound; This is probably a WinCE thing, so hopefully the linux driver folks will make it configurable.
- Dust inside the screen. Seems to happen to everyone - it happened to me, I'm just living with it.
- Weird expansion capabilities. You can add a Smart Media or Compact Flash slot, but the sleeve you need to get to do so makes the iPaq quite a bit bigger, and you can only have one sleeve at a time.
I'd recommend it.. but maybe it's safer to buy it from somewhere like Radio Shack that will let you return it if you decide you really don't like it. - SteveMuch more useful than an iPAQ which seems to be very hardly supported under Linux
Much not very informed opinion, since Compaq, until recently, maintained the "hh" reference port of Linux for the iPaq, and more recently changed the reference port to one of the community ports (Freedom?) since they were a little farther along. Everything in the iPaq is supported under Linux. The sound is supported, the handwriting recognition is supported. There are ports of things like Perl and Python, and it all runs under X.
You're talking about communication tools for the Palm on Linux. Big freaking deal. We're talking about running Linux on the iPaq. Natively. Who needs comm tools to transfer software downloaded from who-knows-where when you can fire up the TCP stack and telnet to your main box where your cross-compiler is to FTP up new programs?
Compaq supports Linux to the extent that they will replace your iPaq if you turn it into a brik while trying to flash the Linux update onto it. They, of course, would rather you didn't do this, but the option is there. And there are just as many apps for Linux as there are for Palm.
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
Yes, someone ported Linux to the Palm.
However, Compaq ported Linux to the iPaq. This is the corporate support that everyone complains about there not being for such-and-such hardware everywhere. Compaq has essentially not only "released the drivers", but the source code for the drivers, and the optimized OS to go with the drivers.
See above - I'm a UNIX admin, and would rather have UNIX tools available, since that's what I do for a living. Not only that, but Compaq is gettting right up there with IBM in corporate supprot for Linux, and I feel that if I am going to spend the money, then I want to spend it on a company that supports the things I use. Besides, the iPaq has all the other features I wanted, too (Color, sound, PCMCIA expandability). The Linux thing is just a bonus.
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
I also hesitated about a PDA... then opted for a Palm...
You can find Palm tools (jpilot) under Linux, Palm Dev Tools (for free), Palm Emulator (to test your dev)...
Much more useful than an iPAQ which seems to be very hardly supported under Linux.
If it's using Linux to support Free Software, I'll remind you that buying an iPAQ will profit to Micro$oft (WinCE is ALWAYS preinstalled, evn if you plan to use Linux on it).
(I do own a Palm. Support for it under Linux is great... never unpacked the CD-ROM they give with it... and there are many apps for Palm, of all kind)
As the former webmaster of www.yopy.org, I have to tell you to get an iPAQ. It's not at all clear that the G.Mate people understand how open source should work; not true for the Compaq CRL people led by Jim Gettys (insert impeccable credentials here). The iPAQ doesn't require that you have a CF sleeve if you don't need one. Yeah, it's got some design problems. But all-around, it's just so nice that you gotta have one.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Despite being less powerful, I have yet to run out of memory on the thing, even though I have quite a few useful apps on it such as BigClock, AvantGo, DiddleBug and a dozen or so ebooks.
Personally, I'd like an iPaq to fiddle with but I don't see why I should splash out a large amount of money for one when I already have a PDA which does its job so well.
You have just stumbled upon what is perhaps the most useless question you can possibly ask when buying computer technology.
iPaq, Palm, Yopy, whatever... In a year and a half, you will want something better, and will be able to buy something better with the change you find in your sofa.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
This isn't directly related to the article, but it is a key question I think must be answered. What prevents you, exactly, from releasing OpenSource programs for Windows CE? (or Windows for that matter?)
I do it all the time. There is a fairly strong Windows OpenSource community, and we get nothing but disrespect from our OSOS-using bretheren. If you want to preach the benefits of Open Source to the masses, you can't afford to be a platform bigot.
-- russ
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
"I'm a poor student, and can't afford to make a mistake here."
It's perfect! All slashdotters believe you must own a PDA, even if you are a "poor student". They'll make suggestions til the cows come home, never once asking "why not just buy a notepad and a pencil".
Very good troll.
--
324006
I wouldn't get either. I am currently looking at getting a HandEra 330. It runs PalmOS and has both a CF and SD sockets on the top. (It supports a 1GB Micro Drive, hmm...1GB on a Palm) Yes, it is only gray, but I don't like having to change or charge batteries every day. Gray Palms runs for about 1 month on 2AAAs. The HandEra take 4AAAs and weighs about .2 ounces more than a IIIx. There is a option comming out this summer for a Li Ion battery. It also has the same dimensions and connectors as a III series so you have a ready supply of cheap accessories.
I have a Palm Vx and it kills the likes of the iPaq as personal organiser. It's lighter, smaller, has a much longer battery life, is much cheaper, handwriting recognition is good and the organiser apps are great. All these add up to a more convenient accessible device.
I've recently found my Agenda to be very usable after all the work that's gone on. You can get a pretty good deal with the developer model as well. See http://www.agendacomputing.com/ for the mostly finished site. See http://developer.agendacomputing.com/ for the developer deal, and see http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~acedil1/agenda/ for more information about the community supporting it.
1. Battery life. Not having a color display, 16mb ROM, 32mb RAM, 200+mhz CPU, etc. means that the batteries last a lot longer in the Palm.
2. Application choices and size. Palm apps tend to be very compact because, unlike WinCE, the Palm OS is only as complicated as it needs to be and no more so. If the apps are small, you don't need 32MB of RAM to store them. Palm apps are widely available and have been developed for years.
3. Price. While I can easily afford a $600 handheld, it's more than I want to spend. If my $150 Palm breaks, I replace it and throw the old one away. If a $600 iPaq breaks, I'm going to have to get it fixed and be without it while it is being serviced.
4. Basic functionality. The Palm does what I need. I can use it for note-taking. I can store addresses and phone numbers in it. I can use it for an alarm clock, calculator, or handheld game machine (I like chess, go, Othello, and other board games). While I could play action games on the iPaq, I have a real computer for that.
Neither the Palm nor the iPaq devices will substitute for a laptop or desktop computer. You can develop apps on them (with great pain). You can, in a pinch, use them for e-mail. But they just aren't real PCs. When people are demanding 14" and larger screens in laptops, it's pretty clear that the 3" screen in a handheld is no substitute.
In closing, decide if you need a handheld. Figure out what you will use it for. If you are like most people, the Palm devices will suit your needs fine. And you probably won't need color, either.
Fortunately for the developer community, Young Hoon Kim, a G.Mate programmer, ported X to the YOPY and made it available "unofficially." Finally, giving up trying to hold back water, G.Mate agreed an X environment would become the new base installation for the YOPY, dumping W Windows. In addition, a 2.4.x kernel would be made available, largely based on the work done by the Handhelds.org group.
/. last time. He's doing a good job to steer G.Mate getting back on right track. The problems with YOPY is that they don't know what makes a Linux handheld different. The following paragraph gave you an answer.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I submitted Young Hoon Kim's interview to
This shift in direction demonstrates (again) that introducing an incompatible technology without strong justification just won't work. Particularly amongst open/free programmers, no one is willing to invest in your new technology unless its worth their time. While W may be faster than X on a 206-MHz machine, is it worth the loss of compatibility? Empirically, NO!
See that NO? The key is to have an open platform PDA. G.Mate didn't see it before. That's the reason why it worth our time waiting, regardless of the fact that it's coming late.
If you want a consumer product, go for iPaq. It's there and it's good; but open source developers probably won't be interested in writing for CE.
Of course, unless your intention is to hack this iPaq like in Embedded Debian project; but then again, you've to pay for a preinstalled Windows CE.
 _
First: don't do palm, unless you want flawless scheduling, calendaring, contact listing, memo writing and a host of quick apps. Palm has vastly inferior processor speeds, very low upgradability and an OS that, while quick, lacks any real power to go beyond the 64k Personal Organizer level of functionality. In short, if you want neat, programmable, full colour, true internet & wireless networking -- in essence, a real computer in your pocket -- don't go palm.
Second -- don't go iPaq if you plan on using your organizer mostly indoors. The screen is just awful, though it excels outside. Me, I went Casio for the screen -- true 64k colour plane, beautifully backlit, and slightly larger than the iPaq -- but I can't see shit outside during the day. I have to duck under awnings when on the street, but luckily, i'm almost never on the street. Casio has great upgradability -- slip on an adapter and a wavelan card, you've got a wireless network. Slip in a compact flash modem, you're on the 'net from a hotel room. Connect to your cell over IR, and you're netted again. Memory, cameras, hard disks, all sorts of stuff is in the compact flash form factor, and unlike the iPaq you don't need a seperate sleeve to have the functionality -- there's a little door that hides your card when it's not plugged into the wall.
Of course, Casio was just my choice, and a lot of people will lead you to the iPaq for its slightly faster processor (hint: it doesn't really matter...my casio E-100, their first colour unit, does mp3 and mpeg well enough, and it's only 133 MHz). But I think the great screen, and the ability to push more than one button at once (the Compaq won't let you do this...kills gaming in MameCE) outweigh the slight advantage of the StrongARM.
www.wincecity.com
Hey freaks: now you're ju