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Stallman And Bero Interviewed
Juraj Bednar writes: "I have done two interviews: one with Bero from RedHat and one with Richard
Stallman, the GNU and FSF founder. I usually write in my native language, but since these interviews were done in English, I asked myself why not to share them" Readers may want to also visit Bero's shared-source.com, and bookmark it as a FUD antidote.
Do a little spell checking and submit only once, you fuckhole.
The FSF's views on selling software are childishly innocent and trusting of society. When redistribution is essentially unrestricted, you have an essentially infinite supply of the product. Infinite supply means that demand no longer affects the price...and the price drops to zero. We already see this with proprietary software...many people pirate Windows, Photoshop, whatever on a regular basis. The only time most people will bother to pay up is when threatened with legal action. If the license allows unrestricted redistribution, that club is not there. The only people who will pay for free software (meaning just the software, not any services/documentation/whatever) will be those who want to support the people/companies making it...and people with that mindset are pretty rare.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
I've heard RMS call himself a "leftist anarchist," so yeah, he is a sort of communist.
Thank you for a definition! Often when I discuss this, there is no agreed upon definition, and since I'm not an expert in socialism, I hesitate to provide my own.
That said: GNU does not anywhere propose a "system of social organization". Nor does it talk about collective ownership; indeed RMS emphasizes "Our emphasis is on freedom, decentralization, and voluntary cooperation" (from the interview). There may be similarities, but the core ideas of socialism are not in GNU, and vice versa.
On the other hand, consider all the flattering things RMS says about America and the american economic system: 'As in "free enterprise" and "free speech", the "free" in "free software" refers to freedom' (from The GNU GPL and the American Way.
It is plain to any person who actually reads RMS: GNU is not about communism or socialism! Neo-socialists: please do RMS the courtesy of not adopting him into your cause.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
When you say "derived in the GPL sense" you don't know what you're talking about. There is no "derived in the GPL sense". A "derived work" is a legal construct taken from ordinary copyright law. The GPL in no way introduces its own definition of "derived", nor does it modify the existing definition of "derived".
The owner of a copyrighted work has the sole right to prepare derived works based on the copyrighted work. The license does not need to state this. This right is given by ordinary copyright law, and remains in place unless the license specifically allows others to prepare derived works.
But Microsoft's code is under a redistributable licence, and the relationship between their code and your code is clearly spelled out in that licence.
I have the license right in front of me. It's a ghastly hornet's nest of legalese, and it does sort of suggest that you have the rights to your own code, but it says nothing specifically mentioning header files. (Compare to the LGPL, which specifically mentions that including header files from a LGPL'd library does not infect your code.)
Now am I suggesting that Microsoft has a secret plan to launch a massive lawsuit against all developers who have ever used Visual C++ to create a program that uses one or more header files, claiming ownership of their code, in an attempt to completely take over the world? Of course not. But, otherwise sane and rational people are willing to make the similar claims for Richard Stallman and the GNU project, even though their licenses are clearer and less ambiguous than Microsoft's. In fact, when the GNU project attempts to clarify and assert your rights by removing even the slightest ambiguity in one of their licenses (such as clarifying the role of header files in the LGPL, or making a special modification for the license of Bison), this is twisted, in the finest Orwellian fashion, into proof that Stallman must have been scheming to take over your code all along.
The "open Source is a virus" argument is completely spurious.
When a fully lawyer-ed up company like IBM is prepared to release versions of its software on LINUX (free to non-comercila users -- but no source code!).
Among the products released on Linux are DB2, MQ & Websphere which togther account for about half of IBMs considerable software revenues.
If IBM seriously considered that I might be able to claim all the source code for a major revenue generating produc there is no way they would be releasing it on Linux.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
>taz burden is only 30%
I happen to know for a fact that my taz burden is actually 20%
When Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks, he replied, "because that's where the money is."
I disagree with RMS more often than I agree with him, however, calling him a 'communist' or saying that open-source/free software has 'alot in common with communism'shows that you have not even the slightest clue as to what communism or probably any other political view/party is.
open-source/free software is all about *voulentary* cooperation, and people *choosing* to work together, and people *choosing* to give part or all of their creative work to the masses.
Socialism and especially communism, have absoultley nothing in common with that at all. Socialism and communism *force* you to give up your rights to your creative works, and *force* you to work together with others.
open-source/free software, to give an analogy, is like donating money to your favorite cause, so you can help it reach a goal, or solve a problem
Communism/socialism, is when you find that a large amount of money has been taken from your pay check, and parts of that money go towards a cause, maybe helping out not so well off people in another country, or paying to keep people on welfare (US residents only).
So being against communism/socialism does *not* mean you are against sharing and voulentary cooperation, it means you are against being forced to "cooperate" through taxation, loss of ownership, having your house destroyed to allow for a road to be made, the selective service etc.
Anyone well versed in politics will tell you that open-source/free software has the most in common with Anarchism and especially with Libertarian ideals.
RMS, ESR, and all other open-source/free software "representitives" advocate *voulentary* cooperation, that is, people cooperating and working together from the bottom up, not "cooperation" and extortion of property/funds imposed by the government from the top down.
--Anonymoous Coward
This describes what Microsoft USED to do.
It's what the initial announcement of "shared source" was like.
The WinCE license happens to be a bit different and more open - precisely because of this, I've added a comment about it on the top of the page, leaving the rest of it intact because I assume further "shared source" code will fall under the terms from the original announcement (this is actually explained on shared-source.com/wince.html).
WinCE is an end-of-lifed product, so it makes sense for them to release it under a slightly more sane license.
I'm quite sure that if their cashcows (Windows, Office) become "Shared Source" at all, they'll be released under the original terms, that's why I didn't change the comment on the original announcement.
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The question is really more like: "_Why_ will anyone write software, if it's Free?"
/. poll.
ESR has the answer to this.
I saw him speak to a roomfull of maybe 400 people.
"How many of you", he asks, "write software for a living?"
4 out of 5 hands go up.
"How many of your companies, your jobs, depend on the _sale_ of that software?"
Maybe a dozen hands are left.
Truly, 95% at least of the software development going on is done in house, to solve in-house problems, and is never sold.
None of the stuff I've ever written or maintained was ever sold. To anybody. For any price. The _output_ of that software is my boss' product, but the software itself is so specialized it's completely unsalable.
As a straw poll, how many of you develop software for _sale_, and how many develop software that is used completely inside your company?
Hey, Rob: This might be a good topic for a
For commodity software - OS, compilers, utilities, GUIs, drivers, et al, the Free Software model has demonstrated itself to be perfectly viable. There's a _large_ community of people out there willing to create, and share, the things that everybody needs.
Specialized applications - now that's what software authors can make their living on.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Bullshit alert!
First of all, they are not selling other people's work. They are charging a reasonable fee for the distribution of Free Software (not to mention that it takes considerable effort to build and compile the hundreds of different pieces of software on a Red Hat system and testing them to make sure they work). It's not like they're out there selling software they have no right to distribute. They are doing exactly as anyone who distributed his or her software under the GPL intended!
Second, Red Hat employs Free Software developers. One of them was even interviewed for this article. Were you paying any attention at all? Yes, Linus wrote the core of Linux, but over the years do you think the kernel would be where it is if not for people like Bero and some other developers employed by Red Hat? Along these lines, do you really think that RPM is such a minor feat? It is Free Software, no? While you may have enjoyed finding and downloading and compiling the source to every Free package you wanted to use, and building your Linux system from scratch, most of us are not so inclined.
Third, I don't know when the last time you actually read Red Hat's annual report was, but they don't seem to be raking it in, like some proprietary software houses we might name. In fact, they are struggling to break even and have done so because they have taken on a lot of work besides selling Linux distributions. Don't forget the enormous expense that goes into maintaining servers where anyone can download the entire Red Hat software for no charge (and they even conveniently provide images to burn CD-ROMs). I mean, have you priced the cost of hosting something like that lately? You have to sell a lot of boxed sets at $99 a pop to cover that expense-- and don't forget that most companies only need to buy one boxed set, which they can copy in-house easily, or simply install multiple systems from that single image.
So who the fuck are you anyway? Craig Mundie? Bill Gates? The only people who oppose what Red Hat is doing are either braindead zealots (you'll notice that even hardliners like RMS seem to be in favor of companies like Red Hat, so where these zealots are coming from is beyond me) or people who want to equate selling software they didn't write with piracy. And either of these is a distortion that is not healthy for Free Software.
If you really don't like what Red Hat is doing, then send your donations to the FSF and Debian. Don't download Linux from RH, use something else. But as long as they are playing by the rules of the GPL, leave them alone and stop trying to infer that they are acting unethically. Free Software is about user freedom, nothing else-- and Red Hat is doing a pretty decent job of making sure that users can get into the Free world.
I do not have a signature
Exactly. and pretty soon, if everything goes according to plan, nanotech will blossom, and everyone will be made redundant.
Then you can play your music, and I'll program.
If you think the RIAA and MPAA shout loudly, just wait till all factory workers are obsoleted by nanoreplication devices...
Imagine if the Scribes had successfully banned the introduction of the printing press (they tried in england) - would you seriously take their side instead of the side of prgress for the bulk of humanity???
It amazes me how eagerly people will believe that the kool-aid they are being fed doesn't contain poison. Why do you find my points to be so controversial that I need to back them up? Have you never bothered to think about these issues yourself?
Free as in Speech is clearly a misnomer, as Free Software has little if anything to do with Free Speech. It's a rather poor attempt to misdirect criticism by wrapping oneself in the flag.
As far as my last paragraph, maybe you need to go read the GNU Manifesto again:
"What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned. "
Are you familiar with the definition of the word banned?
Go read Levy on your own.
Perhaps I've misjudged your intentions. If so, please post an explanation of this comment of yours:
If you can't provide an example of how the FSF is deceiving people, could I suggest that you should think a little harder before posting?
Failure is its own reward.
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
Forcing incentives is not captitalism, that is social/market engineering or regulation, that is common in socialism and communism. If it was really capitalist, people would be able to sell information they did not create. (think about it, why do you think capitalist are constantly asking for less regulation, while socialist ask for more).
Also you make an assumption that people have to sell directly to everyone who wants it at a fixed price or they will not make any money at all. That is just a misconception, if you create something, you are the source, you can either release it for free, or have others bid to be the first to distribute it. That would be capitalism, less regulation more people free to buy and sell.
I pray that he doesn't change his views. I believe we are part of a new generation that could foster a better meaning for life than the selfish pursuit of the almighty dollar.
Using laws of scarcity to govern the infinite is foolish.
The problem is that ideas aren't infinite in the sense that you're using the term. You can't just reach in the air and pull out a good idea for containable nuclear fusion, for example.
The truly marvelous and useful ideas are normally the result of a tremendous amounts of hard work, brilliance, and/or extraordinary luck. They have a uniqueness that is quite analogous to the uniqueness of physical objects.
To disregard the value of that uniqueness is to disregard the work and brilliance of the mind that created it. Besides being a disservice to that mind, it's also a disservice to a society that seeks to cultivate such minds to create more and better ideas.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Fella, the reason you have a high standard of living is because, in the third world, people are working in factories or massive farms for 50 cents an hour and being beaten by security guards for complaining -- and the profits from the enterprise get sent to the USA.
"The value of our hard work is brought down so low that we become the janitors of the network world rather than seen as highly skilled people."
And you don't think the bosses would like this system? Maybe there's something in Free Software after all...
And if you think that programmer is going to be a magical highly paid profession forever, just read up on the history of the automobile industry.
You are drawing the wrong conclusions from the history of the last 100 years.
What we have seen in the last couple of thousand years is a very interesting evolutionary landscape of economies. Over time, economies will tend to move toward an evolutionary stable model, and stay there until an external influence jolts the system enough to move into another state. Just because something is evolutionary stable, does not mean that it provides 'the best guarantee for across the board increase in standard of living': a ruling system is successful if it perpetuates itself.
One of the most successful models in human history has been the monarchy, which develops natually from dictatorship. Another is the managed market economy, which develops natually from an unfettered free market once people get tired of stepping over all the dead bodies in the streets.
'Communism' is an example of an evolutionary unstable model: even if reached (and none of the so-called 'communist' states of the 20th century were actually communist), it quickly regresses into despotism.
Eliding a little, consider a simple situation in game theory: the two prisoners. They are both kept seperate, and given a chance to confess to a crime. If neither confess, they get off. If one confesses, and the other doesn't, then the one confessing gets 10 years, and the one who doesn't is killed. If both confess, they both get life imprisonment. The best outcome for the both of them is for neither to confess, but this isn't what will happen: the expected outcome for a prisoner who confesses is much better than the expected outcome for a prisoner who doesn't confess.
The conclusion: don't assume that the solutions that are around today represent 'the best', they represent 'the least worst'.
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.
Well, technically they can't. Unless you have a license attached (including one that says "this is hereby in the public domain"), your code falls under copyright (the default in the US and all Berne Convention countries). Under Copyright, while they can modify the code themselves, they CANNOT redistribute the code, or the modified code (right of first distribution).
At minimum, you need to public domain your software. Of course, this also means anyone can claim your software, and use it in a proprietary product. If that's what you want, go ahead.
The very first paragraph of his page says that the Windows CE source code was released under a Shared Source license.
And points to a new page that deals with the specifics of the WinCE license, which happens to be somewhat different (and closer to acceptable) than their original "shared source" announcement.
The sentence you're referring to clearly states
The first "Shared Source" code, Windows CE, has been released, and the license is slightly different from what the initial announcement made it look like. You can find a more detailed comment on the Windows CE Source License here..
I've left the comments on the original announcement of "shared source" unchanged because I presume that any "shared source" code that does not belong to an End-of-lifed product like CE will be released under the original terms.
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Why do you insist that he "danced"? RMS has made clear for years that his movement has nothing to do with communism. Can you not take the man at his word?
Alot of what the FSF and stallman yell about is common to utopian communism.
In the same sense that the spirit of sharing and cooperation in general is common to utopian comumnism. Does it surprise you that many people consider sharing and cooperation wonderful, but loathe the lack of personal economic freedom and concentration of power implied by communism?
Please see my other message in this thread for more.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
I'm sorry, you're a little mixed up you you're terminology. You actually described the aim of Open Source Software. The aim of Free Software is the opposite of what you said: it is all about ownership, or lack thereof; security, reliability, knowledge, and efficiency are the side effects (or rather, the results--both intentional and coincidental).
Just read Why Software Should Not Have Owners and/or Why ``Free Software'' is better than ``Open Source'' and you'll see.
You contradict your self. IP laws ARE FORCED upon others, they are communism/socialism (those words under your context), they are regulation of the distribution of information. The IP laws are the government taking away our freedom, to give power to others. IP laws are a government granted monopoly of information, communism as was used in the USSR was a government monopoly on the production of goods and services. There IS other ways for people to make money besides communistic control over information.
eh? Hehe, you should go and read some marx so that you get a clue what communism is my friend :)
I did end up reading it. ;)
/.! If you comply, I promise I won't try to get first post on that article!")
;)
maybe he should contact the Powers That Be (if they don't get to him first!) and set up an actual slashdot interview
I won't ("Hey! I haven't done anything in particular worthwhile, but I want to be l33t h4x0r of the day! So go ahead and interview me on
I don't really think many people would be interested in the "Ask someone you never heard about anything!" column.
Maybe I'm wrong (and if I am, I have no problems with answering); in any case, this is definitely not something I should be asking for.
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You do have the right to release or not release your code, unless you're just taking and changing someone elses code, whos terms of use say you must release the source. If it was truely you code, then you have no worries. If you rip someone elses code off and modify it, then is it really yours?
well, certainly, but these are two sides of the same coin i think... no ?
and there is no lack of ownership: u still have the ownership (copyright), but u admit anyone else can take ur job, and somehow do whatever he wants about it, complying to some rules (licenses). it's slightly different. BSD license even allow u to integrate Free Software in commercial licensed programs.
i'll read ur links when i'll have time....
besides, i really hate when people compare communism to free software, especially considering millions of people killed by the communists, or the harm that socialism can do to a country (heavy, unefficient bureaucracy, etc.). FS is all about efficiency in that way.
Else, we could say soviet union, or china, were just bad implementations of the communist theory, and i don't like that, because communism is a faulty theory. FS is not a faulty theory, because it isn't aimed at beeing global, among others advantages.
Do you know if RH will add support for LVM during setup? It's a real drag to have to install the system to a temp volume, make the LVM volume, move root over to the LVM volume, reboot, and convert the temp dir to a PG. I'd like to do that at install.
Maybe in 8.0?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Was that a sarcastic comment?
While you may not enjoy programming in your spare time, I do. For me, it's my way of recreation. So yes, I, and the many many others, will continue to "write that free software." We're not necessarily writing it for you in particular, but I hope you like it.
Take my company, for instance. We have one product that runs on an Open Source platform. To see where we stand legally, I would really like a lawyer to look at it. And who needs that? Yet is it necessary, as one day soon a competitir may call and say "can I have your source code please?" - and we need to then know what to do. The FUD is based on some real facts.
Michael
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
show me the "dictatorship of proletariat" in Free software.... that thing the soviets didn't ever get rid of...
;))
and, besides, Free software is NOT about getting rid of ownership:
1- the copyright remains owned by the author
2- the aim of Free software is more to improve security, reliability, knowledge, efficiency, etc. than to deal with ownership. ownership is a side-effect.
3- lastely, in computer science, software is both the less important and the more important part: without software u do nothing, but with software, and without knowledge on how to use it, u do nothing as well. Free Software lets u have the software freely by all means, but u still need geeks to understand it
on last thing: i wonder what was Komitet Gossioudarstsvenoi Besopasnotsi's definition of freedom, especially in the Lubyanka's basements.
That machine (if we're thinking of the same one) was down many times during the challenge (probably more than it was up). Some of the reboots (the logs were posted) were due to software upgrades but I don't think the rest were ever fully explained. There were also some times when the machine was not reachable (at least from here) but the logs showed that it was "up" for whatever reason.
I would categorize free software more like capitalism working, not socialism or communism.
If freedom and control equals socialism, give it to me!
Yes, but Communism works in a very centralized way (in effect, EVERYONE owns the resources, which are pooled together before being re-distributed) while FS works in a completely de-centralized way (basically, no one owns any resources, except the original author because of US copyright law--but even she can't do anything about software already modified by other people). Granted, the FSF doesn't always promote this decentralization, as they encourage FS programmers to give them the copyright to new FS, but at least in theory FS is not owned by any one "dictator" or party.
No, free software doesn't enforce anything--some free software you can make into proprietary software and have done nothing wrong. It is only copyleft and copylefted software that is Communist in this way. Even then the force is much more agreable than that of the Soviets. While the Soviets in general targetted all non-conformers, copyleft only targets those who want to use or modify FS, and even then it is more of a defence then an attack.
Q: For example when Borland introduced Kylix for GNU/Linux, we'll see a software, that is itself free, but can't be built with free tools. Do you consider this really a free software?
... useless in the Free World." (He then pats himself on the back for having written the GNU C compiler.)
A (Stallman): It is free software, but not usable in a free operating system, not available to people who want to keep their freedom
I can understand Stallman being annoyed that Kylix is a free-as-in-beer closed source compiler. Still, this is a tool for generating free-as-in-speech software (or non-free commercial software, developer's choice). Does Stallman not understand the difference between Delphi (for programs running under MS Windows) and Kylix (for programs running under GNU/Linux, as Mr. Bednar so tactfully called it during the Stallman interview)?
The previous question is a more general one about non-free compilers. Stallman described software compilable only with a non-free compiler as something that "can't run on a non-free platform
Stallman considers "GNU/Linux" to be a free operating system, right? Does he consider an installation non-free if every byte can't be generated from free source code?
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
If you make copies of niv or nkjv and share them with other people, You will be subject to lawsuits and jailtime.
I think Stallan's message is, don't focus on the freebeer aspect, focus in on the freespeech. While I agree with this focus, I won't buy Nor accept anything that isn't free as in freebeer and freespeech!
The KJV is like copyleft in that it is meant to be open, free, and shared.. Just don't modify it!
The best things in life R indeed FREE.
--Salvation, Sex N Source.. ahhh
I don't think the FSF is at all naive.
They give their view on selling software because they are trying to be deceptive. They know exactly what they are doing, but want to misdirect criticism.
It's kind of weird for me as I'm a dyed in the wool Liberal Democrat. But yet I can see in the tactics of the FSF the same things which the GOP has long accused liberals of doing.
(and again)
In this case they were selling their knowledge and support of their distribution. The actual software wasn't paid for at all (Redhat through in a few copies free).
They sell other people's work only when they have given their consent. I see no problem here.
What standard would you like to hold Microsoft to?
Yes, their header files are copyrighted, so is the compiler and the libraries, etc.
But which provision of the Visual C++ license do you find remotely similar to that from the bison example?
...charge only those money who intend to use the software to make money. Ie. when no money is involved, you can use the software for free (beer + speech). If you involve money in it (eg. you are a company), then you need to buy a license.
Because that's where the money is... in companies. And you could set the price for one license to equal that of 1000 ordinary home users. (eg. 10000 USD)
Sometimes I think the only reason people are able to rationalize IP laws is that they cloak them in euphemistic bullshit.
IP laws are federal government police, smashing down people's doors and arresting them, throwing them in prison with murderers and sex criminals.
If you want to support IP laws, fine. But describe them for what they are. Don't try to shroud them in meaningless fluffy crap like "disregard the work and brilliance of the mind".
(this is not an arguement) Dont forget, government is essentially giving power away in the forms of "IP rights", but only certain people/corporations/organizations can use this power and act on this power, someone of a smaller businesss and low/med income individuals are less likely to persue action for this because of the money and resources it takes. But again it enforces the status quo because these companies will use this power to accumulate a lot of money and this money goes back into enforcing their piece of the status quo, this includes manipulation of our political structures to benefit and increase their power. With out this power, these big businesses will shrink and dissolve into smaller businesses that are competing with each other.
No. I wasn't around that early, and actually didn't make use of the TCP/IP stack when I started using Linux. Network connectivity around here was way to expensive back then (especially considering I was still in school)
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"KDE was (and still is) a free GUI desktop interface that depended on a non-free library, Qt."
I own a small software company. I use free software to build my products (it's an web based ASP). But, I charge a HELL of a lot of money for products and services. And no, they don't get the source. I have sent diff patches in for software that I use and have found bugs in or fixed, but that's it.
Why don't I give my code and products away? Because I wouldn't have a business if I did. I sell goods to make money.. if it wasn't software it would be Beans or Cabbage. Whatever.
Monopolies will come and go, but as long as there is a need for premium or niche services (almost any business now days).. there will be commercial software and there will be people getting rich.
Unfortunately (the brutal truth).. the people who are business minded are FEEDING on people like us.
Dude, put down the bong and chill out. You're making Stallman's interview responses sound reasonable and calm. I know the '60s were rough, but shit, man, it's time to move on.
By the way, the US is what we call a "mixed economy". Real communism places all property in trust of the government (which is really just "the working class"); real capitalism doesn't let the government take anyone's property. If the US were a true free-market capitalist economy there'd be no income taxes, a very small fed. gov't., and we'd probably all be working in factories or massive farms for 50 cents an hour and being beaten by security guards for complaining.
I may take it up the ass when they calculate my paycheck, and I may have to (gasp!) pay for the music I listen to, but I still enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world. Works for me.
-Nat
I don't think what he said was a mistake.
Free as in Speech(which is a misnomer of it's own) implies Free as in Beer. Read the GPL and see what it says on your rights for redistribution of the work.
Also Stallman has made it pretty clear that he doesn't feel programmers should be paid. He rails about it, calling it greedy, etc. This is certainly the case in the early versions of the GNU Manifesto, although he's recently revised it to be less harsh. At any rate, I think it's clear especially after reading Levy's book what motivates Stallman and it is a desire to prevent people from making money off software.
Well, I understand that this can be a problem but compare that to salary-costs for paying thousands of programmers. Not very cheap.
The difference between you and Stallman is that he has a coherent worldview and you don't. Thus you *think* he is an extremist because he *sounds* uncompromising.
KDE daily builds? Please post the URL!
Let's hope the hell its survives then!
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
Unfortunately, as the value of that software is brought lower, those services will be needed more and more to deal with what will eventually be an acceptance of faulty software. Don't believe it it can happen? There's a whole majority of software users out there, one of which might be your grandmother or cousin, who believe that its OK for the program to crash if you can just restart it or reboot and carry on.
... uh, waitaminnit, what wuz you tryin' to say again?
Duh, yeah boss! So we gotta get 'em to stop using dat buggy open source source stuff like Windows and start usin'
-- Sigs are for losers
The trouble is people will only write the software that they find interesting. There will be no new payroll software, no stock control systems, no air traffic control software, no emergency services command and control software.
Actually, that's not the case, the company/government/police - who needs the s/w will pay somebody to write it and naturally since they paid for it to be written they will sell it to other companies/governments/emergency services (and why shouldn't they). Hey, a new proprietary software industry.
I think my point is that there is a use for both free and proprietary software and I don't think you should - or could - make either of them go away.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
This nutball gets 'insightful'? This guy has obviously skipped his medication today, and he gets 'insightful'?
Standards are the most misguided form of flattery.
It's pretty clear from the context that RMS is not calling the current Qt non-free. Look near the end of his response:
Note also that RMS said that "KDE was ... a free GUI desktop interface that depended on a non-free library, Qt," not "KDE was ... a free GUI desktop interface that depends on a non-free library, Qt."
No, they other peoples work. The other guy was right.
I just have to shake my head and chuckle whenever I read anything from Stallman. Does he always have to be so intense and extreme?
I mean, I like "Free" software, and I've devoted some of my time to its creation and improvement - but when I see Stallman throwing around the word "freedom" as though the only thing between utopia and the world are those evil non-free software writers, I'm just more than a bit turned off to the rest of his message.
Free software is great for hackers sharing some code and for people who just like doing things that way. But it's not always the answer. Who's going to write the crappy quilting software that my 60-year-old mom enjoys using so much? A bunch of Linux heads? Yeah, right. If someone wants to write a piece of quilting software and sell it to my mom without giving away the source, than more power to them.
I think the root of this problem is Stallman's propensity to use a concept that's best maintained in a relative sense in an absolute sense. If I have absolute freedom to do anything I want, I can bash your skull in with a shovel. Yeah, now that's real freedom, right? Oops?
As with many things in life, freedom is best when it's balanced properly. As computer people, we probably like the whole binary concept, and we think it'd be great to have something like "freedom" be an on or off thing. Real life is just a bit more complicated than that.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
If software is to be free, then who can we expect to write it.
If a cobbler's shoes are worn, who shall repair them?
Analogies of physical goods to ideas are irrelevant.
An idea is like a fire that lights up the world. It cannot be taken- only given. It can only be created- and cannot be destroyed. An idea can be granted- but cannot be revoked. A thought is immortal.
Using laws of scarcity to govern the infinite is foolish.
The scary thought is, for most of the geeks out there, what do they consider their native language? How long before we get entire interviews in Perl?
Humourous example ommited because of lameness filter and general poor quality of my Perl.
Great, but I like to play music in my spare time, not program. I'm happy enough having a programming job that I think is great and working on my stuff at the office. Keep writing that free software for me, though.
Let's face it, if you can't put a fence around it, or chain it, or lock it up in some manner, it does not belong to you. It does not matter if it's music, writings, software, ideas, inventions, drawings or what have you. Once you release it, it becomes like the air that we breathe: it belongs to nobody and to everybody.
Intellectual property can be fenced/locked up. It's called "copyright". Let's say I'm a professional musician. You copy my music without paying for it so I persecute you like a common thief. That's because you are a common thief. Intellectual property only has value by virtue of the fact that other people want it but can't get it without paying for it, so by copying my music you are depriving me of the one thing I produce that has any value.
Let's say there is no intellectual property. This means that music has no value, which in turn means that there is no music industry, which means there is no music available to people who have no musical talent. Sounds kind of dull to me.
If all software was free, then the ability to write computer programs has no value which means that nobody would do it, or at least people would only do it as a hobby. The quality and variety of software would suffer. Who wants to write a payroll package? Who wants to spend their time QA'ing software?
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
Are you suggesting we return to the horse and carriage?
That's kind of like pointing to the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) and saying, "if the democrats aren't allowed to decide what constitutes democracy then who is?"
If you can't detect circular reasoning in your own argument, you probably should keep your mouth shut.
Uhh... DUDE! Fire is a physical reality.
:)
Comparing a physical reality to an idea is irrelevant.
You said so yourself.
As for your last paragraph, the poster you're replying to gave a link which sets out the FSF's views on selling free software. Can you give us some idea of what Levy says that contradicts that? Without this it's hard to see why you would believe Levy (whoever he is) when you don't believe what Stallman's own organization says.
Failure is its own reward.
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
Ignore the pompous asshole whose email address is zikoknows.. You can't have a decent discussion with a know-it-all.
But the goal is not "more free software adoption" but "more free software". As such, telling people how to port their proprietary software to free systems in counter productive.
You know, I could personally think of many more questions that I'd like to ask Bero. Since he's a slashdot pseudo-regular and might just end up reading this, maybe he should contact the Powers That Be (if they don't get to him first!) and set up an actual slashdot interview where we get to ask him our ten most highly moderated questions.
Some of the most obvious questions are already answered on some of his websites (bero.org comes to mind), but I'm sure we could collectively come up with some that are interesting for both him and us!
It's only software!
Those sorts of programs are "derived" in the GPL sense from Microsoft code. But Microsoft's code is under a redistributable licence, and the relationship between their code and your code is clearly spelled out in that licence. (Unlike some older compilers that demanded per seat licences for the libraries.)
To use their term, the compiler libs aren't 'viral'.
The most obvious problem is that plenty of hard-working people don't make enough money to afford decent housing, food, and medical care. Meanwhile, some people who seem much lazier live in luxury.
$6/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/year = $12000/year. That's barely enough to live some places in the U.S. (here in Champaign-Urbana, IL, for example), but definitely not in major urban areas.
Unfortunately (the brutal truth).. the people who are business minded are FEEDING on people like us.
You say this like it's a bad thing. Dung beetles feed on what I produce, too (well, not literally, but they could), but you don't hear too many people complaining.
OSS only works for commodity software. Kernels. Web servers. Mail servers. Toolkits. Stuff that people use to get other forms of business done. The software you're writing is not a commodity, so you can sell it. But you rely on a certain level of infrastructure (Apache, say), so it's in your interests to fix Apache if it's causing you a problem. You could fork Apache, and start bundling Pengo-httpd with your product, but who would want that?
Yes, the nick is flamebait
So, how is this division of land being decided, kind of a divide the area of the earth by the number of people on it and we each get a slice of that size?
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Also, it seems to me that development of apps that run on Open Source Operating SYstems (GNU/Linux) lead to adoptions of these operating systems. In fact, the lack of apps is the one major thing holding back Linux and with it, Open Source.
Michael
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BDOS ERR ON A:>
Let's face it, if you can't put a fence around it, or chain it, or lock it up in some manner, it does not belong to you. It does not matter if it's music, writings, software, ideas, inventions, drawings or what have you. Once you release it, it becomes like the air that we breathe: it belongs to nobody and to everybody.
Property and its offspring intellectual property are simply societal constructs. We live with them by convention, and I see no basis to just disregard intellectual property because you don't like it. We could just as easily say, "Let's face it, if you leave your car in a public parking lot, it belongs to nobody and to everybody." But would society benefit from such a rule?
Personally, I think that society is better off with property rights, including some measure of intellectual property rights. Human motivation is just way too bound up with obtaining things to do with out such basic tenets.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
when asked wether GNU was similar to communism RMS said it wasn't really like the Soviet Bloc at all.. that's not really answering the question... but I'm sure he's answered it somewhere else before.. because every time I read his FSF philosophy stuff I think of communism... I need some pointers to places that can help clear this up...
What you mean is that the Soviet Union was not a "Marxist" or "Socialist" system.
It was certainly "communist" as the word was specificly invented to describe the form of government that came to the Soviet Union in 1917, by those people who formed that government.
If the communists aren't allowed to decide what constutes cimmunism then who is?
Besides the "that wasn't really a socialist/communist/marxist state" argument doesn't hold water. "True" socialism seem a bit like those exotic particals in physics which only exist for a millionth of a second after some massive explosion.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
I disagree with RMS more often than I agree with him, however, calling him a 'communist' or saying that open-source/free software has 'alot in common with communism'shows that you have not even the slightest clue as to what communism or probably any other political view/party is. open-source/free software is all about *voulentary* cooperation, and people *choosing* to work together, and people *choosing* to give part or all of their creative work to the masses. Socialism and especially communism, have absoultley nothing in common with that at all. Socialism and communism *force* you to give up your rights to your creative works, and *force* you to work together with others. open-source/free software, to give an analogy, is like donating money to your favorite cause, so you can help it reach a goal, or solve a problem Communism/socialism, is when you find that a large amount of money has been taken from your pay check, and parts of that money go towards a cause, maybe helping out not so well off people in another country, or paying to keep people on welfare (US residents only). So being against communism/socialism does *not* mean you are against sharing and voulentary cooperation, it means you are against being forced to "cooperate" through taxation, loss of ownership, having your house destroyed to allow for a road to be made, the selective service etc. Anyone well versed in politics will tell you that open-source/free software has the most in common with Anarchism and especially with Libertarian ideals. RMS, ESR, and all other open-source/free software "representitives" advocate *voulentary* cooperation, that is, people cooperating and working together from the bottom up, not "cooperation" and extortion of property/funds imposed by the government from the top down.
That's a myth which deserves to go away. KDE 2.x is more advanced than Windows. Now, it's merely a case of people having learnt all of windows' idiosyncrasies first.
:-)
I've watched a complete computing newbie happily work out the multiple-virtual-desktop herself on KDE, then go to windows and say "this is crap, I've only one desktop", but I've also watched a long-time windows user completely fail to use it, or even try to understand it...
Now, Mac OS X is better than either - but for that, we have GNUStep....
You forget that quite likely, you own part of Nike. Have you checked the holdings of the funds in your retirement accounts lately? You are directly benefiting from their abuses. And the abuses are carried out in your name.
REAL freedom would be the absence of copyright law. Then all software is public domain and the GPL no longer applies.
This situation is (I think) the entire purpose of the GPL, to make itself obsolete. When copyright law is gone, there's no more BSA, no more DMCA, let alone we would need a gnu-police as there's also no GPL. Everybody has the right to copy binaries, copy source code, give these to their neighbours and their neighbour's cat.
So in this case, where does the police come in?
Actually, these are philosophical distinctions which have little to do with the actual practice of either system.
"Communism" in the Soviet or Chinese sense is a political system where the government controls all aspects of political and economic life and many aspects of social life. Decisions are made at high levels and passed down. The schools and youth organizations are designed to indoctrinate children and to identify and cultivate those children who show promise through their devotion to the communist philosophy. This system is also designed to discourage or punish independent or different thinking.
The U.S. system is not so different in many respoects, e.g. schools do a lot of indoctrination and peers discourage different thinking. However, economic organization is delegated to the "private sector," which is mainly dominated by a few large corporations with interlocking ownership (via the stock market) which discourages any real competition. Again, decisions are made at high levels by unaccountable "business leaders" who hand them down to corporate peons to be executed. We have a government that is accountable to the people, but elections are so swayed by corporate money that representatives' allegiance is divided between their voters and their financial sponsors. Small enterprise is alive, but overall it has little power to control the direction our economy heads, which makes it hopelessly vulnerable to the encroachement of big business on sectors traditionally dominated by small business: witness the spread of corporate restaurants, drug stores, grocery stores, farms, etc. in recent years. This is the spread of top-down, unaccountable economic control.
Where does the government play into this "capitalist" system? Sometimes as a referee, but very often as an accomplice that helps corporations make even more money, from the local scale (say, hiring a favorite contruction company for government projects and giving them extra pork for the job), all the way up to handouts by the federal government. Take Exxon, for example, who was ordered to pay for the Valdez cleanup, but was then allowed not to pay any taxes to make up for their losses. In fact, taxes from previous years were refunded. So, in effect the government simply handed them a lump of cash for the inconvenience of having to comply with the law.
I wonder if I can get some back taxes refunded this year to pay for my parking tickets.
But, more importantly for our discussion here, the real implication of our system is that government and Big Business go hand-in-hand, and the implication for Free Software is grave: the government has already begun passing laws that deliberately threaten our freedom to share code amongst ourselves according to the terms that we choose. This is not because it threatens the economy, it is because it threatens the vested interests of a certain group of rich people who aren't making money as fast as they would like to.
</rant>
Freedom needs not be enforced because it is a natural law. Only property rights need be enforced because they are unnatural, and that is what FS seeks to get rid of. If copyright law were abolished tomorrow, free software would still exists, but it would need even less enforcement than before. At the same time, proprietary software would become ludicrous. It would be impossible to make sure that everyone who has a copy of the software did pay for it--even now they're having a tough time dealing with this problem, and Microsoft is resorting to pure propaganda.
Fella, the reason you have a high standard of living is because, in the third world, people are working in factories or massive farms for 50 cents an hour and being beaten by security guards for complaining -- and the profits from the enterprise get sent to the USA.
Fair enough, but this has really only applied to the past fifty years- the post-colonial era. The USA emerged from WWII and the Depression as an economic superpower; it's a shame that so much of our continued development has been based on exploitation of the developing world- but much of this based on military expansion, not just global corporations. I think most of the type of abuses you're referring to are even more recent.
Most Americans don't see any of those profits; Nike may have their shoes made for $2 by impoverished Indonesian teenagers, but that doesn't make them cheaper for the consumer. It allows Nike to spend more money on endorsements from superstars [I refuse to buy Nike for this reason]. It sure as hell isn't helping my standard of living, though Michael Jordan and the Nike execs have done quite nicely from the deal.
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of people implying that if you use a GPLed editor to write your code, you have to place the code under the GPL. I've heard some people actually making that claim, so I thought it was important to mention that it's not the case.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
excuse me mr moderator? could you explain what you ment by modding the parent as troll?
I don't see anything inflamitory and actualy rases some valid pro and con aspects of GUI and command line interfaces.
Ascii artist &
First of all, this is not some generic interview section - it's just a pointer to some questions about "shared source" I answered a while ago.
;)
But since I'm reading this, guess there's no reason not to reply.
1) Ever since the Qt license problems have been resolved, RH hasn't had problems with KDE. Actually, most people in this office use KDE.
There have been a couple of internal flamewars of course, but nobody really takes them seriously.
2) Sure - some of the most serious gripes I've had with Red Hat Linux when I started BeroLinux have been fixed for quite a while - for example, the lack of a possibility to add a non-root user during installation (added in 6.1), KDE integration (initially added in 6.0, updated to a sane version in 7.1), or wasting space by not compressing man/info pages (fixed in 6.1 or 6.2, don't remember), or the lack of optimizations (all 7.x releases are compiled with -march=i386 -mcpu=i686). There are still some things I'd do differently, but overall, I'm quite satisfied with the current version (the current beta in particular).
3) Yes, to an extent. It annoys me even more that RH never bothered to make an official statement regardning the compiler.
I think the whole thing wouldn't be the way it is if someone in power had taken the time to communicate it correctly, preferrably before the 7.0 release.
4) That strongly depends on what you want to do - I personally want to eliminate the need for non-free OSes, which means usability (and thereby KDE) needs the most attention at the moment. But then, things like scaling down to embedded devices and up to high-end servers are not exactly useless either... I think going ahead in all directions the way it's happening now is a good thing.
5) We have a more generic approach to prelinking (needs a patched ld.so and binutils though). This is part of the current beta of RHL.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
If software is to be free, then who can we expect to write it.
Someone who needs it - most free software projects have started out by someone deciding he needs something for himself and just coding it up.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
One could consider the GPL to be the authoritative power (if it actually has any power..its never been tested), but i guess its a matter of interpretation.
My point was that stallman didnt answer the question. Instead he pulled out the Soviet reference..while the soviets were 'communists', they were also almost dictatorial and not in the sense that marx was looking for. I dont think that the question was comparing the FSF to a dictatorial organization, nor should Stallman have answered it as such.
-
Try reading some of Noam Chomsky's writings on Liberatarian Socialism. If you really want to try and pigeon hole Stallman and Free Software, that's a better fit by far than Communism.
English does not have an order of operations. Many sentences are thus ambiguous and it is up to the reader to determine the meaning from the surrounding context.
Let me us brackets to make it clear to the linguistically challenged. (Since most of the people here are programmers, you should at least be able to understand this.)
What Stallman really meant was:
What you thought he meant was:
Obviously, since Stallman says, in the surrounding context, "Qt is now available under the GNU GPL, and we discontinued working on Harmony (it was no longer necessary)", the first meaning is the correct one. In other words, YOU WERE WRONG.
QED
The government.
That's what RMS and his followers want. A lot of GPL'd software already gets funded via NSF grants.
The approach they are taking is similar to the leftist approach to health care. They want to make the current system work badly, and then they want to offer their methodology as a solution for problems that didn't exist until they created them.
I'll take Windows security as an example, because most people will jump up and say that's a problem that the Free Software movement obviously didn't create. Well, who do you think writes most of these worms? It's people with nothing better to do than "rage against the machine". These people probably don't actually write much free software, in fact, they are a separate community in some sense but they have similar political goals.
The GPL'd systems aren't that much more secure than closed systems. They are just far less attractive as political targets. When it becomes politically advantageous to launch security attacks against GPL'd systems, they will. Then they will appeal to the government for help, because no company will do it. This won't occur until Free Software has at least a 75 % share of the server and desktop markets.
Was it Mr. Bero who orginated the very first tcp/ip code for Linux? My memory is foggy but I think so.
Wow, that's one hell of a nice example!
Lum Edwards and Abner Peabody forever!
Important, becuase I increasingly see entrepreneurs (and even Linux developers) confuse the two. Which is not a good thing. With more and more proprietary devices based on open source software, we will probably see some big time confusing situations soon. Which is grist to the mill for Microsoft, who are happily sowing the "GPL is a virus" FUD.
Not that it is ALL of it FUD! We all want our employers to pay us, so we all want them to make money - enough to do that anyway. And for many companies, software is a large part of what they earn, and of their competitive advantage. Which is what enables them to earn that money.
Since we cannot all change our business models immediately, there are legitimate reasons (imho) for some companies to charge for software. And with more and more open source being used, there will be situations where suddenly, people realise they can no longer do that. Time, I'd say, for everyone to re-read the GPL.
Michael
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BDOS ERR ON A:>
Richard Stallman: With free software, you are free to make a modified version and use it, and free to publish the modified version if you want to, but you are not required to publish it. That's you choice.
Freedom is the key. Intellectual property owners accuse those who copy the stuff they publish of stealing their property. They want to prosecute (persecute is a better term) those who do, fine them and/or put them in jail like common thieves.
My question is this, who's going to prosecute IP owners who steal my freedom?
Let's face it, if you can't put a fence around it, or chain it, or lock it up in some manner, it does not belong to you. It does not matter if it's music, writings, software, ideas, inventions, drawings or what have you. Once you release it, it becomes like the air that we breathe: it belongs to nobody and to everybody.
You say, "Well, I worked hard and I must get paid for my work." Right. Well there are a million things in society that you never paid a scent for and you enjoy them freely. Time for you give something back. "Well", you say "how am I gonna make a living?" Good question. It is one that you need to ask your governement.
They instituted the slavery system that you live and work in. Tell them it's no good. Tell them that everybody should be given a piece of the earth, an estate if you will, for you and your descendents. Ask them what they're going to do when AI and advanced technologies finally make human labor obsolete. How is the slave system going to work then? What will your worthless intellectual property going to support you then?
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The requested URL
Wow... Great interview. Fix it please?
If you read the whole shared-source.com page there is a section on "if open source is so unsafe then hack this computer". It lists all of the software and version numbers the box is running.
It would be nice if a MS website where able to be that bold.
Ascii artist &
Google is maintaining a mirror in case the page is slow / slashdotted here.
Again RMS shows his predjuice to KDE and Qt by declaring Qt non-free even though it is now under the GPL, his own license.
WTF
Actually, I do not think the author should have asked this. Qt has been under the GPL'd since Sept. of last year, and has been "free software", through the QPL for over a year and a half now.
I'm serious about this - I'm not trying to be a troll.
If software is to be free, then who can we expect to write it. Obviously, I have a need for a paycheck. Since I have this need, I have an employer. In order for my employer to pay me, I have to contribute to their revenue.
Is it reasonable for companies to only make money from services, and to offer the software for free? Are there companies who are successfully doing this? (Yes I saw the RedHat Quarterly report, but that was a little number fudging - they still lost money). Do we just have to wait out a certain transition period before the idea of Free Software pervasively existing is realistic?
Check out Steve Ballmer at his finest.
I'm kinda surprised that, when prompted about similarities to Communism, RMS starts talking about the Soviet system. I think this is a rather common misconception.
Communism itself has exactly nothing to do with the Soviet system. The Soviets have never run a true Communistic system. When people refer to Communism they often erroneously refer to the Soviet Union and think about the political system.
Communism is not a political system but rather an economic philosophy that, in my opinion, has quite a lot of things in common with the Free Software philosophy, in that it allows people to share their goods freely. It is not an alternative to, say, monarchies or democracy, because it is no political system. It is rather an alternative to Capitalism.
Free Software definitely has nothing to do with the Soviet (political) system. But neither does Communism.
Try looking at population trends and the exponential increase.
Bero and Red Hat are constanstly under criticism for one thing or another. Some of it deserved and some of it way off base. Bero always seems to have the time and patience to quelch the rampant false rumors floating around and the technical know-how for sure. He is definitely one cool dude in my book. I just wish we had him as an inside spy at Microsoft so we could know what the hell really goes on behind closed doors so we wouldn't have to speculate.
Right here.
Hey, unlike many, I like what Stallman says, and frequently how he says it. But it looks like Stallman just copied and pasted some boilerplate. Heck, I bet Jim Allchin could have written those responses to the question on behalf of Stallman:)
But seriously, I think the interviewer wanted a solid answer in the first question: How does your view help me? We got the standard "someone can make a change". Maybe a better question is: how will this help my grandmother?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
What about *MY* freedom? I like the freedom to be free of possible lawsuits. I like the freedom to choose to release or not release my code.
Why should tools (source code) have more 'rights' than a human being?
This describes what Microsoft USED to do. Microsoft no longer restricts it to their biggest companies (or universities, which for a long time have had access, which noone here seems to realize), but instead allows anyone to look at WinCE code. You can even mess around with it, modify, recompile, as long as it's not for commercial use. This is pretty cool. You can hack with it, play around with it, etc., as long as you don't try to steal Microsoft's code.
Granted, it's not open source by a long shot, but it is a way for Microsoft code to become friendlier.
Oh, and if you check it out, they even allow you to use code in your own. So it's NOT the "Oh-my-god-if-your-seventeenth-cousand-thrice-remo ved-looks-at-this-you-can't-make-anything-more-tha n-shell-scripts-or-Linux-will-be-fucked." Indeed, they're willing to give you ideas.
Shared source isn't what we're into, granted, but it is a lot nicer than we give it credit for. If we're going to be opinionated, let's at least be right.
RMS listed several companies that sell commercial free software. From what I understand, his idea is that software should be free as in speech but need not be free as in beer. As far as I have seen, the main ways to accomplish this and make money at free software are
- The source is free as in speech, but companies can sell compiled binary versions so the users don't have to go to the trouble of compiling their own.
- Some companies also charge for support, documentation and services, while the software itself is free as in speech.
What I am trying to understand is how well this will play to general, non-technical users, the real market that needs to be conquered in order to compete with Microsoft et. al. and get a foothold in the industry.I think that in order for the free software/open source movements to succeed, they need to appeal to everyday users. I think that there also need to be mainstream companies that make money with free software so that the programmers creating the free software can do it as their day job. So please help me understand, in all sincerity, how we will accomplish this?
Hypocrits fail to notice how their freedom is stealing from another. They whine when someones work is kept to themselves, yet turn around and cry murder if the same is done to them.
Like with Napster... you have millions of thieves who try to justify their actions with rhetoric and parroted propoganda, as if to make themselves the social samauri of a new age. They even try to say how it is for the good of the recording artist and such. They are usually right about the theft from the recording artist, but how silly are they if they don't realize the intrinsic flaw in the logic (haha, I made a funny... logic) they abuse. If a recording artist says you can do it, then go right on ahead. Otherwise you are a thief. Don't try to justify it just because you feel guilty. Admit you are a thief and drive on. THen when someone steals from you, don't bitch... just realize that he is liberating you from your capitalist and materialistic slavery. You should thank him!
there will never be a "free" system, like stallman wants. Here is why: Let's say, all software was "free" (as in speech). There would still be people that would have to enforce these "freedoms". Im not sure I would like the idea of a "gnu police" busting down my door. Without this, you would have anarchy. REAL freedom, would be public domain software.
The person I have the greatest problem with is that (in)famous communist RMS. Now, RMS may have been responsible for GNU, the GPL, GCC and many other contributions to the computing community, but his stance, as well as stench, displayed in his essays and actions, nauseates me. I mean, with that filth-ridden beard of his, where does he have room to demand that people refer to Linux as GNU / Linux? When he is as clean-shaven as I, he may claim that right, but until then, he should go back to playing his little flute and dropping acid like there's no tomorrow. Honestly, if he doesn't shut his mouth and go back to reading Marx, I'm going to shut it for him. I am sorry to sound so harsh, but a little hygiene every once in a while is a Good Thing(TM). Makes me wish I'd gone with a closed source license back in the day.
I have a GUI installed on faux-wife's computer.
It is running KDE 2.0 and I think its a very nice GUI. Better infact than windows even if it is a little less "entuative", entuative is like the word reality -- it always belongs in quotes.
But I alwasy feel limited by the GUI. I can not >, |, x(){} or , a GUI app to get the level of power that I require/want. Command line apps are also easier to hack because you just add anoteher -x option instead of haveing to find room on an already clutterd API.
You can not cron a GUI app that does anything substantial.
My sig is not ment to spark a GUI vs Command Line argument. Its ment to appeal to those who thrive on the things that a command line can do that a GUI just is not capable of. By the same token there are those things a GUI can do that the command line can't. It is all a matter of preferance.
Drag and drop and WYSIWYG is not always the best way to go.
Ascii artist &
I guess Free Software is related to the communist ideology, but Stallman does the right thing in separating what is commonly known as "communism" and the ideology itself.
The core of communism is who controls the means of production. Did the people in the Soviet Union control the means of production? No, they did not. Thus it was not communism.
It's not a straight isomorphism, but I think it's clear that with proprietary software, it's possible to hinder people in producing meaningful software (compatibility, compilers, etc.), thus removing the means of production (the means of production become knowledge (APIs, protocols) instead of factories). With Free Software you are guaranteed this. Free Software also has a collective pool of software, which I think is more related to the scientific community than communism, but certainly also is desirable.
I remember when Microsoft first began their public attack on Open Source, before they began to backpedal with "Oh, we meant the GPL." The news program I saw was a double-headed interview, first the guy from MS, then the Redhat guy. (I remember who, but let's not name names to protect egos.)
The MS guy, some lower-level marketing droid, came on and gave a short statement. If you knew the issues, or even just paid attention to what he was saying, it was obvious every single word out of his mouth was a lie straight from the Pits of Hell.
But the guy looked like Alec Baldwin, with a voice like a really good late-night radio host. His suit was perfect. In all honesty, this guy could have won the last presidential race hands down. If you've just been arrested for murder, this is the Bobby Donnell-clone you want to walk into your cell.
The interviewer thanked him for his time, flashed him a smile that promised dinner and drinks later, and then turned to Redhat -- our guy. *sigh*
Our guy was wearing a badly-fitting T-shirt. He was sitting down with his shoulders slumped. He forgot to bring a chin. The glasses, what you could see of them, looked like they had been scavenged. He wore this oversized red fedora that looked like the headgear from Indiana Jones and Dale Evans had had a secret love child. In trying to pull it down rakishly over his eyes like Humphrey Bogart, he covered half his face and made himself look like a suspected child molester hiding from the crowd. His voice was nasal and cracked badly from nervousness.
If you paid attention, and had read Eric S. Raymond before you saw the interview, then you understood Mr. Redhat was rehashing all of the stock arguments against the Great Evil of Microsoft.
If you hadn't, then this nut kept prattling on about the Cathdrals and Bazaars in the Middle Ages and how Microsoft wanted to be a feudal lord and Dear God, this poor geek had obviously lost his mind to decades of Dungeons and Dragons...
The interviewer cut him off, thanked him for his time, and turned back to the camera. She flashed the audience a perfect smile that mixed amusement and pity.
Mr. Redhat had just won all of the debate points. He was still nuked into oblivion by Mr. Microsoft's style.
I've seen this particular game play out more times than I want to remember -- honest yet bumbling Reason blown away by treacherous Style.
If Linux really wants to win the war for the Desktop in time to prevent the .NET holocaust, then maybe it's time to hire a couple models of our own.
Think of them as tactical nukes. They got theirs, so we got ours...
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Just look at Linux, BSD, GNU, XFree, and all the other GPL/BSD tools. People have written them. They are free. I don't think a lot of those people got paid for doing that. Even without monetary compensation they get written. Maybe some of those people get their salary from regular programming jobs, but some don't/didn't (Linus, Stallman). I just don't see what the problem is.
Even if the whole proprietary software industry collapses, there will be people to write Free Software, i.e. students, academics, and people with non-programming type of jobs. If for some reason new software started to become scarce because all the programmers had to work as garbage collectors, some organization supported by those who wanted the programs (state, industry, or privately supported) could be set up to employ people in the public interest.
I'm sorry but I don't believe that Bero is being completely accurate when he claims that the "GPL makes no claims to data generated, processed, or stored by something covered by it." According to the text of the GPL "The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does." IANAL, but in my opinion, for a company to be completely safe about using the output of GPLed software, they must examine every line of the source code. The reason is that it is possible that the program will inject portions of itself into the output. An example is Bison whose license was modified. To quote documentation from an older version of Bison 1.20 "Bison grammars can be used only in programs that are free software. This is in contrast to what happens with the GNU C compiler and the other GNU programming tools. The reason Bison is special is that the output of the Bison utility--the Bison parser file--contains a verbatim copy of a sizable piece of Bison, which is the code for the yyparse function. As a result, the Bison parser file is covered by the same copying conditions that cover Bison itself and the rest of the GNU system: any program containing it has to be distributed under the standard GNU copying conditions." The license was later changed in version 1.24 and beyond: "As of Bison version 1.24, we have changed the distribution terms for yyparse to permit using Bison's output in non-free programs. Formerly, Bison parsers could be used only in programs that were free software."
There is a certain prevalent mentality that assumes the only significant motivation for doing anything is the desire to make money. There are a great many craftsmen (and women, I know) who would not say money is their prime reason to be doing what they are doing. Most of the best art falls in this category. The stuff made primarily for BIG SALES tends to suck. Britney Spears anybody?
Some people write this stuff because it is fun to run their own code. Others do it because the software in ancillary to their true goals. The Apache web server came about this way. Apache wasn't developed to make Webserver Inc a pile of money. Some webadmins needed a httpd daemon that was reliable and featureful. The original Linux kernel that Linus made available to his fellow hackers wasn't going to make anybody mounds of cash: it would barely boot a 386. The additions from volunteers was what made it valuable.
I'll agree that anybody who wants to make money trying to sell something that is free is on a fools errand. However there is nothing wrong in taking something free and using it as part of something larger that is sold. The school district that I work for uses a product called the Firebox. It is not marketed strictly as a Linux box. It is sold as an easily configured firewall and proxy server. The middle school tech guy loves that thing. Oh yeah, and they pay the guy who works on iptables. IBM and SUN are hardware companies and are all for anything that helps them sell hardware. Incidentally, the bulk of RedHat's profit doesn't come from selling the boxed distro. They also sell customization and consulting services.
Open source only fails to make sense to those who sell boxed software. It is a moneymaking or moneysaving opportunity for others with different models. Think about independent music for a monent. With the RIAA gone there wouldn't be many pop music multimillionaires. There would be and ARE a lot of people who earn honest livings writing and performing. The same is true of open source. No one will be a multibillionaire selling it but it will enable many others to earn decent livings.
Nice to meet you. You're so beautiful for a german.
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"That is a perverse view of morality. "
I wonder who really have a perverse view on morality...
Apparently these interviews are dynamically generated.
Got friends?
The very first paragraph of his page says that the Windows CE source code was released under a Shared Source license. A mere five sentences later (note that this is also five paragraphs later, since he's one of those idiots who uses a new paragraph for just about every single sentence he writes), he's telling us that Shared Source "gives only some selected (by Microsoft) large companies the permission to view parts of the source code [...]" This is also a point (entirely incorrect, by the way) that he continually harps upon. Is he senile or something, or did he forget what he wrote only 5 sentence earlier?
As if that weren't enough for one sentence, he continues by saying, "[...] under the provision that it is not modified, compiled (turned into an executable file the computer rather than the programmer understands), or redistributed, in modified or unmodified form." Please note that this is complete bullshit, and anyone reading the short and very easy-to-understand license will see this immediately.
Let me know if the rest of it has anything useful, but because he so bolloxed up the first page length of his article with lies, I'm not going to bother with the rest of it.
I'm glad we finally get an interview with bero, one of the most underrated hackers out there imo, i've always been fascinated with the Bero Linux distribution from a while back and everything he's done with RH so far. I would have asked some other questions, so since we all know he reads slashdot I have a few questions:
... they rock.
1) You apparantly host dot.kde.org and post regulary, though RH 'sponsors' GNOME. Anyone at redhat have any comments towards you? Hate mail? Unexpected nerf ambushes? Do they sign you up for GNOME mailing lists? Do they make fun of the 'KDE guy in the corner'? (BTW, this is what makes open source so cool, the freedom to choose what you want).
2) Any of the ideas from bero linux make their way into the main RH distro? I know Mandrake did, but since RH is mostly conservative, I'd like to hear your opinion.
3) Does it piss you off that every complaint about the gcc in RH is answered on your website and you have to post the URL for the last 2 red hat releases including the betas? (that must suck).
4) You get paid to work on Linux, that rocks! What do you think needs the most attention?
5) Any chance that prelinking stuff will make KDE2.2? How about any of the other RH packages?
Thanks, and thanks for the kde daily builds
stallman is advocating the purging of 'non-gpl' licensed software.
Hitler advocated the purging of humans which didn't fit in his master race... much like stallmans master plan........
good interview with stallman except his dance around the communism question. Alot of what the FSF and stallman yell about is common to utopian communism. Instead he pulled out the Soviet reference without answering what was probably the true intention of the question.
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Bison is an interesting example, but as far as I know it is somewhat unique. And now that version is obsolete so the whole point is moot.
The spirit of the GPL and precedents are pretty clear that the GPL does not put restrictions on data generated but only on derived works.
Technically, of course, you are right there have been GPL programs where the output also had to be placed under the GPL. But I cant think of any GPL program included in a major distribution that has this problem now. Or perhaps I just havent looked far enough?
Public domain software contains no disclaimer of liability. If someone uses your software to build a baby threshing machines and gets their arm caught in it then you could be sued. Open and Free software licences disclaim such liability with better legalese then you could probably come up with on your own.
Your door is safe is because the FSF has never been out to bust anybodys nuts. The GPL and other major licences don't place restrictions on use so end users have nothing to worry about. The only obligations are on people who redistribute software. All of these licences basically disclaim liability for the author (it's free so no bitching if burn your face off with it or hold it in your hand when lit) and require acknowledgement of authorship. I don't think anybody here would defend the "right" to plagiarize the work of another. The GPL places the additional requirements that derivative works are also covered by the GPL and that anyone you give a binary to has a right to the source code as well. If the copyright on the GPLed software in question is owned by the FSF then they will enforce it. Contrary to popular belief they aren't out to say force the open sourcing of Windows because a Stallmanite agent provacatuer inserted a GPLed comment line into the source code. They have historically been content with the removal of the GPL component or a revamping of the application so the binary isn't "linked" to a GPL library.
Besides if you find the GPL too onerous there are always the X, BSD, and LGPL licences.
Also, pretty much the only thing that would draw the ire of the FSF is someone trying to make a closed work with their code. Many say that isn't true freedom but they are trying to avoid a contradiction that arises from total and complete freedom. You are not free to infringe the rights of another. If someone puts out a piece of code with the intention that anything made with it always be free then respect that intent. There is plenty of X and BSD code whose authors will be cheerfully indifferent if a derivative is closed.
What the hell is wrong with beards? I keep my pet crickets in mine.
If you look in a Visual C++ header file, you will see something like this:
People love bringing up the Bison example to demonstrate that GPL code poses some sort of secret threat to take over everyone else's code. Yet people include header files in their C++ programs without worrying that their code will become a derived work of Microsoft's.Why is GNU held up to a higher standard than Microsoft?
Why is GNU held up to a higher standard than Microsoft?
Because it's better. Why is the pope held to a higer standard than the Devil?
"There is very little similarity between our community and the Soviet system. Our emphasis is on freedom, decentralization, and voluntary cooperation, which are not things that the Soviet Bloc was known for. It is actually the proprietary software world that resembles the Soviet system. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html for more explanation of this. "
Hmmm... I think you have misunderstod something, mr Stallman.
Communism is all about freedom. Communism is about getting rid of ownership, so is Free software.
But to maintain this freedom the freedom must be enforced! This is what the sovjet union did, they insisted that people didn't own, otherwise people would be enslaved by the owners again. This is also what the Free software movement is all about.
It really depends on what you define as freedom, the western would saw it as freedom to be able to own and sell your proprietary (IP or otherwise), the sovjet block beleived that freedom is to be free from the enslavement owners impose on you.
You know, I understand what you mean, but you are arguing about something else than I am. There is no reason we have to be fundamentalists. Your statement is easily disproved. I am employed by a university in Holland, which, guess what, is owned by the state, and I am thus employed in the public interest. So are the absolute majority of academics in Europe.
This system works, no problems. If you want American examples, there are probably similar universities there, or companies maintaining the road system or whatever. Just because communist states never seem to get off the launch pad doesn't mean that the ideas are bad. A moderate and partial implementation already exists in all of the modern democracies, and there's no reason why it can't be expanded to include Free Software as well.
Almost all of Linux and BSD was written simply because there was a giagantic need to have a flexible OS freely available and no software around to fill the void. People got together and wrote it because who else but them was going to?
These days there is still that kind of modivation present(ie. someone releases new hardware someone has to write a driver for it or its just dead weight in the box). But also present is the tinkering and experimentation. Do you want to experiment with different scheduling methods in the kernel? Go for it! Did you hear about some wacky advanced method for heap walk allocation and want to implement it? Go for it! Where else are you going to try this on? Windows? Bwahahahah! ^_^
Why don't you go do some reading so you know what the hell you're talking about. Ack, I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to you.
Free as in speech GIVES free as in beer.
There's a lot of information on Stallman's philosophy at www.gnu.org. Take a few hours and read it some day. You will not agree with all of it, but at least you will understand his position more clearly.
Well said! too bad /crappers still live in the parents' basements and don't know what the real world is like. They don't have families to feed and mortgages to pay. All they know is to steal mp3s and make references to Natile Portman pouring hot grits down his/her pants.
Grow up and realize that we (evil capitalists) will take over linux also. Because there is the potential of money there. Like it or not, it is ours. I should also probbly mention that I love linux, I've used it as my primary system for about 5 years. But lately I am having serious problems with the GPL and its striking resemblance to communism. And with the idea that what I spend monts working on is there for everyone to take and modify and release a competing version. The reason I made the comment earlier(about living in your parents' basements) is becasuse I was in the same situation. I thought the the GPL was the only way and that any commercial software was evil. THen I got a job, and starting supporting a family. Needless to say my views have changed somewhat.
sorry dudes, but linux is ours. thanks for all the hard work you put in.
Gino
Uh, non sequitur.
Wasn't talking about the GNU, not that I agree with it anyway (and I have read it).
I was talking about people who take this license which was meant to apply to manuals and reapply it to IP in general, but in doing so over apply it to mean that all forms of intellectualizing should be treated like air.
That's wrong, and illegal.
- Defiant
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