Comic Books And The Internet, Continued

A number of readers have written in about the Salon story talking with Gary Groth's recation to Scott McCloud's pieces on the intersection of the comic and the Internet. Groth's feelings are much different then McCloud. I love the comic book format (am currently reading Cerebus, The Dreaming and Bone amongst others) and think is an interesting issue - 'specially considered within the greater question of "art" and digital media.

Comments

McCloud is right

[steveha]

Mr. Groth wrote this really long, tedious, steaming pile of words, which all boil down to "net bad, paper good, McCloud sucks". Scott McCloud has some good ideas; not all are practical now, but that is no reason to throw them all out the window and hurl insults at him.

I really enjoy CRFH. It's one of my favorites. If there were no Internet comics, I would not be able to read it; it would not exist. The Salon article has a direct quote from the author of CRFH saying just that. Mr. Groth can rant tediously all he wishes, but he won't convince me that a world without CRFH is a better world.

Even if you think micropayments will never happen the way McCloud describes them, McCloud still deserves some credit. He cares about comics, and wants to see them survive and prosper. As he wrote in his book, market forces in the printed-comics world can crush new comics: you can't get sales unless stores stock your comic, stores won't stock your comic if it's not just another X-Men ripoff. With the web, anyone can put up a new comic, and the good ones can grow by word-of-mouth.

One last note: if you think Internet comics are all quick gag-a-day strips, you might want to check out the Zot graphic novel. It's very good!

steveha

once again....

[bricriu]

Once again, Sluggy Freelance has been passed over in an online article/discussion about comics. It has everything that Salon is bringing up as salient points: long story arcs (not quite as long as the mentioned College Roomies from Hell, but they do intersect and elements from previous arcs come back in later ones), micro-payments, the ability for the artist to make the majority of his money off of it (witness the actual bound books available through Plan 9 Publishing, as well as the assorted "goodies" you can buy), and solid artwork (those who've read Gaiman's Sandman may notice some influence in the often-hauntingly-beautiful The Bug, the Witch, and the Robot story arc may see some similarities)...

Why does it seem that Sluggy has become an online-comics pariah these days? User Friendly gets bashed for being too pro-geek (or whatever), which may or may not be a valid criticism. But Sluggy is just getting forgotten? What gives?

Re:once again....

[bricriu]

I think the problem is that these super-long story lines make great reading in archived form... that is, when they're all strung together. When reading the old Bloom County collections (I never read the dailies), I used to get pissed if a storyline was less than a week long. Part of what Groth is whining about -- the short attention span of readers -- is part and parcel of the one-a-day thing. You're right... things do seem dull when you get them in dribs and drabs. I just wish Groth would try releasing some of his in a daily format, and see how well it does.....

friction sucks unless it's intimate

[rstevens]

maybe i'm biased, but why does there have to be friction between web and paper comics? we can help each other grow, especially if you use web strips to help sell paper books to people who don't go to comic shops. (gee, and that's only 99% of humans in the USA)

Re:Check out http://www.whoopkadang.com

[PopeAlien]

Well, as long as we're trolling for hits I might as well see if I can slashdot my server as well. PopeAlien.Comics is a half-assed weakly comic completely unrelated to the Pope, Aliens, or indeed even this discussion topic. I like to get drunk on the weekend and give half-assed advice to strangers.

Please.. visit in an orderly fashion, one at a time. I don't think the server can handle anything more. There. I've promoted the site, done my geek duty. Can I go home now?

Comic books are cool but

[Pxtl]

Unfortunately, like everything else, they suffer from Sturgeons Law (states that 90% of everything is crap) just like everything else. And, with the prices they go at these days, its not worth keeping up with a series that looks like it has potential, and its a pain to play catch-up with a series that just got good but you don't have the first 9 issues. After realizing how much better I could spend $4 Canadian, I got out of that. Also, anyone else notice that the quality of a comic is inversely proportional to the length of its run?

Re:Comic books are cool but

[iapetus]

So rely on personal recommendations and pick up the comics in collected graphic novel format rather than on a monthly basis.

Some series that I'd recommend:

• Lenore (Roman Dirge) - Very sick and twisted, some genuinely thought-provoking stuff in here. Outstanding stuff, now available in two collections.
• Transmetropolitan (Warren Ellis) - Some real bite in this one from time to time, though I miss the one-offs from the earlier parts of the series. Still running, but a fair few collections available.
• Preacher (Garth Ennis) - Don't read it if you're offended by the odd bit of blasphemy, but for anyone else it's great stuff.
• Sandman (Neil Gaiman) - Buy it. Now. All of it.

The Internet as a training ground

[mykepredko]

An important point that doesn't seem to have been addressed in this topic is the ability of the Internet to be used as a training/recruiting ground for new artists and writers.

Regardless of what is the "right answer", the Internet is a valuable tool for comic producers to develop their drawing/character styles and sharpen their ability to tell a story or a joke. At the same time, they can make a few bucks either from banner ads or in the form of micropayments (McCloud's concept).

For the publisher, it gives them a chance to see what the aspiring artist or writer can do along with seeing their ability to create for an extended period of time.

If there are forums for feedback, it gives both parties a chance to see what the ultimate customer thinks of it and where improvements have to be made.

So regardless of how the final product is produced, the Internet has a useful purpose in developing and testing talent.

myke

RTFM solved if ...

[beanerspace]

Okay, here's a wild hare of an idea that'll probably klobber my karma ...

Perhaps we could get users to read the manual if they were in comic book format ? And it doesn't have to be anything cheezy ... I remember spending hours sitting on the edge of the couch pouring over Classic's Illustrated renderings of this novel or that.

Sure, it'll have it's limitations, just the same way trying to use a Classic's for a book report on Moby Dick is ... but at least the user will have a clue.

Ughh... Too many levels of abstraction.

[Giant Hairy Spider]

Here we are, posting comments on a link to commentary on a review of an analysis of the future of a medium for a mode of expression.

Now people are going to moderate these comments, and meta-moderate the moderation, and probably comment on both level of moderation.

Given the typical error factor in each level of analysis, there is a near certainty that there is no meaningful connection between this discussion and physical reality.

So does this mean we've gone insane or that we've evolved into creatures of pure thought and energy?

Max Payne

[Masem]

Check out Max Payne, a recently released game for Windows; it's a John Woo/Matrix inspired modern-day cop story in a 3rd person (over the shoulder cam) environment. Gameplay is excellent, but what relates it to this /. story is that the plot is carried by a strong graphic-novel display. That is, instead of the cutscene cliche, you're taken to a display of panels from a graphic novel, the panels fully voiced and sound fx'ed when appropriate, along with music in the BG. The bottom of the screen during these points gives access to a VCR-like control set so that you can go back and forth through those scenes that you saw.

If that aspect of the game was removed and used as a foundation for eComicBooks, along with the ability to get good voice actors to help with voicing, they could really take off, knowing full well that they will be expensive too.

More recommendations

[DreamingReal]

All of those you recommended are *great* series. Most of the incredible things I'm reading at the moment are not in the superhero genre either (although there are good books there as well). Here's some more -

• Palooka-Ville - by Seth. Published by Drawn & Quarterly. Pick up the collected story arc, It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken. It's a semi-autobiographical account about the author's quest to find an obscure New Yorker artist (drawn in a New Yorker style).
• Ghost World, David Boring, or anything else by Daniel Clowes. This guy is one of the best writers in Indie comics. Sharp, dark humor. Published by Fantagraphics.
• Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth - By Chris Ware. This one is available at Barnes & Noble and Borders. Collected from the Acme Novelty Library series. A heart-wrenching story about a pathetic man who meets his father for the first time. The best series I read last year and Ware is the greatest hope for comics being taken as a serious medium. Also published by Fantagraphics.
• Optic Nerve - By Adrian Tomine. Published by Drawn & Quarterly. One of the most promising young talents in indie comics. Pick up Sleepwalk and other stories, which collects issues 1 - 4 of Optic Nerve. Short stories about real people. Brilliant work.
• From Hell - By Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell. Moore's analysis of Jack the Ripper is frightening, shocking, and enthralling. I've read this series three times and I still haven't absorbed everything. Available in a collected edition at B&N and Borders.
• Maus - By Art Spiegelman. Winner of the Pulitzer Prize. One of the most overlooked treasures in comics. This book stands in the shadow of Watchmen when people talk about the best comics produced in the 80's. A masterpiece narrative about the Holocaust. This is the torch-bearer for greatness in the comics medium.
• Anything by Brian Michael Bendis - This guy is reigniting the Marvel line with his work on Elektra and Ultimate Spider-Man but some of his best work was done at Image Comics. Pick up Jink and Torso, both available in TPB.

And a few other quick recommedations: Non by Jordan Crane, Jar of Fools and Berlin by Jason Lutes, the re-issued B&W TPB of Akira and Oh My Goddess! both published by Dark Horse, and Peter Milligan on X-Force. Phew! Any one who says that comics are dead isn't reading any. There are spectacular things going on in the medium at the moment. With sales down, publishers like Marvel and DC are taking more risks. The result? Some of the best comics from these companies in the last ten years. And like I've outlined, Indie comics are still churning out *great* books.

For even more recommendations and some damn good thoughts on the comics industry as a whole, read Warren Ellis' series Come In Alone at Comic Book Resources. A collected, dead-tree version is also available (which I have and strongly recommend).

Problems

[zpengo]

The biggest problem with online comics is the same one that affects eBooks and other online reading -- Monitors on which reading and viewing are actually comfortable have not yet filtered down to the masses. Joe Sixpack won't read lengthy comics online because it makes his head hurt after a while.

Paper is still a beautiful medium.