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Mozilla Moves Into 2002? Maybe.

alanjstr writes "MozillaQuest reports that Mozilla 1.0 has been pushed back into 2002 (from Oct 2001) in its latest schedule update. Since the end of 2000, the rate of new bugs being submitted has doubled (according to the pretty graph)." However, the Mozilla guys, whom our own HeUnique talked to have said that they are still on target, and that the 2002 story is not true. So - you be the judge on this one. Or not. Whatever.

89 of 376 comments (clear)

  1. Doubling bugs by ryants · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A possible explanation for the increased bug rate:

    The rate increase in bug reporting is possibly due to wider use; as each build got better and better, more and more people tried it and found more and more things (little things) wrong.

    In which case, that just means that Mozilla is getting more and more refined. I think this correlates with most people's experiences with Mozilla from build to build.

    Just a thought.

    --

    Ryan T. Sammartino
    "Ancora imparo"

    1. Re:Doubling bugs by Alien54 · · Score: 2
      The rate increase in bug reporting is possibly due to wider use; as each build got better and better, more and more people tried it and found more and more things (little things) wrong.

      Well, it is also natural to not right up to cosmetic bugs when you are more concerned with truly broken features.

      This probably means that the "Look and Polish" bugs are starting to get attention, as well as performance bugs (ie, it works, but it is slow)

      - - -
      Radio Free Nation
      "If You have a Story, We have a Soap Box"

      --
      "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    2. Re:Doubling bugs by ryants · · Score: 2
      Occam's Razor says that you're wrong
      Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccessitate

      Of course, you're trying to imply that "Mozilla is getting buggier" is a simpler, therefore correct, explanation.

      While certain possible, it doesn't jive with the fact that most people find the latest builds of Mozilla much more stable than previous builds. While this is anectdotal evidence may be somewhat weak, it is evidence nonetheless that your theory doesn't take into account.

      Don't forget the "sine neccessitate" part when you invoke poor old Willam's name.

      --

      Ryan T. Sammartino
      "Ancora imparo"

    3. Re:Doubling bugs by hexx · · Score: 2

      Occam's Razor is not a law of physics, and as a philosophical principle, it does not even apply well to complex situations - as it can oversimplify.

      In fact, I believe Einstein put it quite eloquently: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

    4. Re:Doubling bugs by asa · · Score: 5, Informative

      The rate of incoming bugs has been pretty steady for some time. With 15,000+ active Bugzilla accounts it is not at all strange to see 300 bugs reported in a single day. Anyone who takes a minute to look closer will see a couple of important trends in these numbers. First the percentage of Duplicate, Invalid, and Worksforme bugs continues to rise and is at about 50% so nearly half of all bugs reported turn out to be something other than new bugs in the code. Second, the overall average severity of incoming bug reports has been going down for some time so that while the volume of incoming bugs hasn't changed a lot, the kinds of issues being reported are more polish issues that development or testing blocker issues.
      I have been involved in organizing the Mozilla community quality assurance and testing effort for more than two years and I can say with confidence that the project is at a much higher quality level than it was 2 years ago, 1 year ago, 6 months ago (grab M9, M16 or 0.8 and compare for yourself). Bug counts have never been an accurate measure of the quality of the product.

      --Asa

    5. Re:Doubling bugs by Malcontent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      " Occam's Razor says that you're wrong"

      Well then I'd like to meet this Occam's razor. Did he/she/it do statistical analysis to see if bug counts are increasing, did it actually read through any bugs, did it ask the mozilla team if lots of duplicate bugs were being submitted.

      You seem to have an awful lot of faith in this Occam's razor maybe you can explain to us why this is some sort of a irrefutable authority and a flawless analyzer of complex code.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    6. Re:Doubling bugs by asa · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The incoming bug rate is NOT DOUBLING. I don't know if that is some figure you got from MozillaQuest (reason enough to discount it) or if you actually went to the source (bugzilla.mozilla.org) but someone got their queries/reports confused. The bug charts show that the rate has been pretty much steady for a long time. The only interesting thing about this graph (that the person reporting the doubling nonsense obviously was confused about) is the rise in New and the drop in Assigned. Bugs start out as New and get marked Assigned when a developer decides the bug is his. In late 2000 we stopped sending out a 'nag' email that urged developers to accept their New bugs. When we stopped sending that mail the Accepting dropped off. The incoming bug rate has not changed significantly and neither has the fix rate.

      --Asa

    7. Re:Doubling bugs by asa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, when confronted with a fact like 'bug submissions to Mozilla have doubled,' one shouldn't immediately go on apologetic flights of fancy which result in such ineptitudes as 'there's more users so there's twice as many bug submissions! DUH!.' when there's no evidence backing it up.

      "bug submissions to Mozilla have doubled" is not a fact. It doesn't even make sense. Doubled what? Doubled since yesterday? Doubled since the beginning of the project? Doubled in volume?

      Bug submissions certainly have not doubled in volume in recent history. We get between 100 and 300 bug reports a day and this has been steady for quite a while. About half of those are immediately marked as Invalid, Duplicate or Worksforme by the growing numbers of active testers and Bugzilla account holders. We have over 15,000 active Bugzilla accounts and that number is growing (accellerating, even). And that is a fact.

      --Asa

    8. Re:Doubling bugs by mobydobius · · Score: 3, Informative
      Jeezus, Dude!

      I've been reading your comments in this thread and have come to the conclusion that Ockham's Razor is this new theoretical toy you've just found out about, and now you want to knock all kinds of shit over with it. You wield it like it is a magic wand that can take any experimental data and come up with the appropriate hypothesis to fit it. Well, "Sorry for the cold glass of reality", but Ockham don't do that.

      I've graciously provided a link above that can tell you what the Razor is all about, but for now lemme tell you why you just don't go using Ockham in this case:

      Various people have been giving different possible hypotheses for the increased number of bugzilla entries. Each hypothesis predicts different statements about the individual bugzilla data and events surrounding the data.

      For instance, one ./er suggests that the increased bug reports come from increased numbers of eyes looking at Mozilla, and that the bugs are actually old and hitherto undocumented. A closer look at the bug reports would be able to see if in fact the bugs pertain to old unchanging segments in the code.

      Since Ockam's Razor can only be applied to situations where two competing hypotheses would predict the same data, and since your hypothesis (Mozilla is getting buggier) would imply that the new bug reports are pertaining to newer segments in the Mozilla code--in contrast to the competing hypothesis--you can't use the Razor to imply your hypothesis is better suited to the data. In general, one should never use the Razor to circumvent more careful examination of data and further experimentation. If further experimentation can be used to distinguish between two competing hypotheses, then Ockham does not apply.

      Though, secretly I must admit it would be helluva cool if there did exist a magic wand that could give me the perfect hypothesis for any data set. It would greatly simplify my life.

      --

      "I like to wear big boy pants."
    9. Re:Doubling bugs by Cato · · Score: 2

      The key issue that needs highlighting is the *number of high severity bugs* - as long as this is going down, as it is, Mozilla is clearly converging on a releasable product. Personally, I'm quite happy with Mozilla's quality already - the few bugs that I've found myself have typically already been reported and on the way to being fixed, and in 0.9.3 it's now quite stable and almost as fast as IE5.

    10. Re:Doubling bugs by cyberdonny · · Score: 3, Insightful
      >> Bug counts have never been an accurate measure of the quality of the product.
      > Only an open source programmer would have the nerve to say this.

      No, some commercial outfits say similar things. For instance Andersen Consulting, sorry, Accenture has this bizarre mentality of artificially inflating number of bugs in their pre-shipping bug tracking db, because the quality of their product will be judged by the ratio(bugs_found_after_release / bugs_found_and_fixed_before_release). The intended way of keeping this small is to make a quality product with almost no bugs left after release. However, another way of keeping this ratio low is by inflating the denominator, i.e. making sure many bugs are logged before release. Every trivial item will be logged, and preferably multiple times (for instance rather than saying "error messages have many spelling errors", each individual typo will be logged as a separate bug...). So, not all commercial entities consider a huge number of bugs to be a bad thing; in some circumstances it's actually quite the contrary!

      Now, back to the issue at hand: in this particular case (Mozilla), you have to consider the difference between bugs and reported bugs. If a product is so buggy that nobody uses it, obviously no bugs will be reported. Mozilla is now entering a phase where many more people start to actually use it, and to use it more thoroughly, so surely, more bugs will be found and reported.

    11. Re:Doubling bugs by Ms.Taken · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Occam's Razor says that you're wrong, and that Mozilla is getting buggier.

      So I guess Occam's Razor would also say the the amount of gold ore in California exploded at the start of the gold rush and the number of stars increased dramatically with the invention of the telescope.

      If you start with the statement, "The discovery of X has increased", there are a number of explanations that meet Occam's rule, including:

      • More people are looking for X.
      • Methods for finding X have improved.
      • The total amount of X has increased.
      Sorry for the cold glass of reality thrown in your face. Of course, now I get downvoted.

      Ms.Taken's Lady Schick: Having an unpopular opinion doesn't make you right.

    12. Re:Doubling bugs by fanatic · · Score: 2

      more people tried it and found more and more things (little things) wrong.

      It still disappears for no good reason on a regular basis. Not a "little" bug.

      --
      "that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
    13. Re:Doubling bugs by Punto · · Score: 2
      When we stopped sending that mail the Accepting dropped off

      So basically the bugs are the same, but nobody is fixing them? :)

      --

      --
      Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!

    14. Re:Doubling bugs by asa · · Score: 2

      CALL ME CRAZY, but I would think that as a product approaches release, this number should be going DOWN.


      That's assuming that all bugs in the product are already known. That's assuming that you treat all bugs as having the same severity. That's asssuming that the number of incoming reports is reflective of new bugs in the projuct. All of these assumptions are wrong.

      --Asa

    15. Re:Doubling bugs by asa · · Score: 2

      Nope. Bugs are being fixed at about the same pace (maybe a little faster). It's just that they are not being Accepted in Bugzilla. So a lot of bugs go from New to Resolved Fixed without having been moved to the Assigned status.

      --Asa

    16. Re:Doubling bugs by scrytch · · Score: 3

      First the percentage of Duplicate, Invalid, and Worksforme bugs continues to rise and is at about 50% so nearly half of all bugs reported turn out to be something other than new bugs in the code.

      Where I come from, "works for me" cannot close an open issue, and must be followed with "cannot duplicate with same configuration". I get a whole lot of "works for me" anecdotes when I tell people about my miserable experiences with new kernels, reiserfs, and mozilla builds. Well, most firestone tires didn't blow out either. Still want a set on your SUV?

      I realize you don't have the resources to investigate every worksforme problem, but if you come up with a product that's only perfect in your test lab, you still don't have a quality product.

      --
      I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
  2. The Better Quest Site by newbiescum · · Score: 3, Informative
    MozillaQuestQuest

    Props to Mozillazine for the link. If you want real Mozilla news, check out the latter link. Much more informative, and the discussions are at least somewhat insightful.

    1. Re:The Better Quest Site by Tackhead · · Score: 2
      > It is XHTML. You must have an XHTML-capable browser to see it [the Mozillaquestquest.com article]. Apparently IE 5.5 is not XHTML-capable.


      Neither is Netscape 4.7.


      Only Mozilla folks could create a website that's unreadable by both IE and Netscape 4 ;-)

  3. Why 1.0? by Scrag · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What is the obsession with reaching version 1.0? It's not a finished product until then? Then tell me why I have been using it for everything that several finished products can do. It won't have bugs by the time it reaches 1.0? I cant understand that either. It's not everyone will stop working on it when it reaches 1.0, so that means version 1.0 is just another version in the middle of hundreds of others.

    What is really important is that the browser keeps getting better, and it is. With each release they fix tons of bugs. That isn't going to change when it reaches 1.0. I don't care if it never reaches 1.0 as long as it keeps getting better. They could call the next release 1.0 and everyone would be excited, but it wouldn't really mean anything. Just like the actual 1.0 release won't.

    1. Re:Why 1.0? by goldid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's pretty simple. Remember that the whole world isn't computer literate. We may be please to use version 0.9.3, or even version 0.4. The average user? The users whose massive support makes certain projects fundable and viable? They want version 1.0. 1.0 says, "Hey, this is stable, it won't kill, maim or cause your machine to implode." That's what the rest of the world is looking for. Keep them in mind. 1.0 is a major milestone. While 0.9.3 may be just fine, it takes 1.0 to make it not scary.

    2. Re:Why 1.0? by rgmoore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      AFAIK the key is that Mozilla is in a feature freeze for the 1.0 release. All work until then is supposed to be bug fixing, although there also appears to be some cosmetic work like changing the available themes. Once they reach 1.0, they can start adding new features again (though many posters here would claim that Mozilla is already so bloated that new features would be redundant.) As other people have pointed out, 1.0 is also a big psychological milestone.

      IMO, Mozilla is already well ahead of the quality of most released commercial software, and the willingness of Netscape to base NS6 on the existing Mozilla tree is pretty good evidence that Netscape agrees. The Mozilla team could declare the next version to be 1.0 and I doubt that any more people would complain about the quality than with other packages. The decision to squish every last bug before declaring 1.0 is a really good sign of the quality of code that the team wants to put out.

      --

      There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

    3. Re:Why 1.0? by Kanasta · · Score: 2

      Why? Because even tho it's stable for YOU now, it's totally unusable for ME. Granted some of the hardware I use is pretty crappy (S3 Trio graphics card gives me headaches all the time), but that shouldn't explain why it crashes on me every time I open a few (3-4) windows. Granted I'm part of only a very small percentage of users, but if you're suggesting Mozilla developers should start patting themselves on the back then you're kidding yourself.

      Given the amount of trouble I've had, I'm not going to touch it again until 1.0. And also until they trim down the file size. I thot the thing was supposed to be efficient and stuff, fit on one floppy or whatever.

    4. Re:Why 1.0? by LarsG · · Score: 2

      They want version 1.0. 1.0 says, "Hey, this is stable, it won't kill, maim or cause your machine to implode."

      You must have been hiding under a rock while MS redefined the meaning of "1.0".

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    5. Re:Why 1.0? by ethereal · · Score: 2

      TANSTAAFL.

      There are really only two ways to satisfy your need for "something that works" - you can either work on it yourself, or pay for someone else to do it. I don't really care which you choose, but if you choose to be part of a project that is predicated on users submitting bug reports and maybe even bug fixes to improve that project, then you probably shouldn't turn around and bitch that those are the project parameters. You knew it was a work in progress, you knew how Open Source works, and you knew that there was an expectation that it would be your job to contribute to the project (via bug reports and/or fixes) in order to earn the right to complain about it.

      I'm not saying don't mention bugs that you find in Open Source projects (because nobody can be entirely involved in every Open Source project who's product you make use of); I'm just saying you shouldn't really be surprised when people tell you to shut up and start coding :)

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

    6. Re:Why 1.0? by Syberghost · · Score: 2

      "1.0" says to most people who got into computing after 1995 "was released in 1901".

    7. Re:Why 1.0? by sulli · · Score: 2
      Then tell me why I have been using it for everything that several finished products can do.

      Because your version crashes far less often than the one I tried recently (for MacOS 9)?

      --

      sulli
      RTFJ.
  4. I'm not worried. by Soko · · Score: 2

    Mozilla 0.93 is great as it is - why about worry when 1.0 is coming out?

    I have absolutely no problems with .93 what so ever on Redhat 7.1. Nevermind, guys - keep on moving forward, at the pace you need. I'm certainly impressed, as well as extremely grateful, so far.

    Soko

    --
    "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
    1. Re:I'm not worried. by PingXao · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm going to agree with this. I've been a Mozilla basher for almost 2 years now, happily using Konqueror and, before that, an older Netscape.

      But even though I gave the Lizard below-average marks up until now - and deservedly so, I think - since I downloaded 0.93 I couldn't be happier. On my RH 7.1+ boxes it runs much faster than Konqueror. The ability to kill off unwanted banner advertisements and the fine-grained control over cookies is a godsend.

      So, after 2 years I now recant everything bad I said about Mozilla. More importantly I can now recommend it to everyone I do business with! It's about time!

    2. Re:I'm not worried. by magi · · Score: 2
      I'm myself not that convinced about the stability of Mozilla. For me,
      • 0.9.1 worked just fine,
      • 0.9.2 usually crashed within a minute, and
      • 0.9.3 always jammed when starting and didn't even show up.
      (Sorry for not filing bug reports this time.) This was also in RH 7.1. Ok, it probably works for most people, but for a few it doesn't, and the reasons don't appear to be obvious.

      Besides, it's still rather slow in Linux, compared to Konqueror, and especially to old Njetscape 4.7x. I mean the GUI; the rendering is rather quick.

  5. A Rose by any other name (?) by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 4, Insightful
    What is the problem? Mozilla is essentially stable and featureful from my perspective as an everyday user. Given that the product is useable today, isn't 1.0 more or less an arbitrary release point? Its not like 1.0 will close off all existing bugs and not open any new ones - every release is an incremental march towards stability with new features adding their own instabilities.

    Lets be frank - its not like rushing to a 1.0 release now is going to reclaim substantial market share from IE - the browser wars, at least on Windows, is basically over. We've waited years for Mozilla to get done - they ar emaking great progress in 2001, so lets just call 1.0 when the time is right.

  6. MozillaQuest is one big troll by FattMattP · · Score: 5, Informative
    I think that anyone who's kept up with Mozilla Quest and its articles has realized that it's one huge troll. The guy who writes the articles hardly ever has anything good to say. He also has a way of misconstruing and twisting things that would make a Microsoft PR executive beam with pride. Someone created a great parody of it called Mozilla Quest Quest. Apparently it requires Mozilla, or something that can handle XML, to view it.

    Bottom line: Take anything the Mozilla Quest site says with a HUGE grain of salt.

    --
    Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
  7. Who the fuck is Mike Angelo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Okay, I give in.... who is this guy? MozillaQuest sounds very important and it certainly had me going for a couple of minutes, but then look at the front page.... over 20 articles, and all written by Mr. Angelo.

    Trying to be self important but having nobody to listen to you. The site looks quite sad, to be honest.

  8. bugs are not bugs by bagel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Some of the bugs present on bugzilla are actually enchancement suggestions. So don't be fooled by the raw number on the list. How many of them are critical bugs? How many are just "this feature should be included" or "the menu item should belong to another place"?

  9. MozillaQuest is beyond parody. by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I thought MozillaQuestQuest was funny when it first came out. Then I read this "article" at MozillaQuest and it became clear that the parody just can't be as funny as the real thing. The title is just so ludicrous to anyone who has the slightest knowledge of the Mozilla project it simply defies taking the piss out of it. And the right sidebar! I haven't laughed so hard in ages. Someone sign this guy up to write for Slashdot!

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    1. Re:MozillaQuest is beyond parody. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The MozillaQuest site itself is so badly executed and so sophomoronic in content as to place it beyond the bounds of credibility or even lampoonability. How anyone can come up with "October + ? = 2002" is simply beyond me -- unless they've an ulterior motive. That funny biz with the screenshots and graphs struck me as an amateurish (but still annoying) attempt at disinformation.

      It's just so fscking sad that anyone would even link to it, much less give it guaranteed traffic by posting a story from it as "news" here.

      /. editors, please don't choose articles when you've been smoking crack. You'll just continue to embarass yourselves and waste our time. Thank you.

      In the meantime, I plan to continue to ignore MozillaQuest and hope that it'll just go away.

      BTW, I'm using Mozilla 0.9.3 exclusively for my email and it kicks butt (and I don't have to worry about .vbs viruses on my Windows boxes).

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:MozillaQuest is beyond parody. by GreyPoopon · · Score: 3, Informative
      And the right sidebar! I haven't laughed so hard in ages. Someone sign this guy up to write for Slashdot!


      I absolutely agree, and I'm happy to see that somebody else has already expressed their sentiments on the issue. In all seriousness, when I first saw the link (on Mozillazine) to that article, I really believed it must have been a parody site. Subsequent research left me astounded to find out that it wasn't. I have honestly never seen such unprofessional and irreponsible journalism (if it can be called that) in all my life. And as you said, the sidebar really took the cake. It reminded me of some of the crap people in high school debate classes would dream up. In fact, better make that junior high. The high schoolers were much better at critical thinking.

      This latest article just continues to prove how worthless it is to read articles on Mozillaquest -- unless you just want a good laugh. In fact, if you take a look at the current roadmap for Mozilla (that has been in place for a while), you'll see clearly that they aren't promising a 1.0 release anytime this year. They are *hoping* to have one, but the more conservative of the two numbering schemes obviously takes them into the next year. It's been that way for a while since the roadmap was revised.


      My suggestion is that you use Mozillaquest to test out your new DDoS tools. We can just consider it to be the "door stop" of websites.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

  10. mozillaquest in no way affiliated with mozilla.org by asa · · Score: 5, Informative

    I just want to make sure it is very clear to slashdot readers that MozillaQuest is in no way connected with or affiliated with mozilla.org. Do not be confused by the name or the 'borrowed' mozilla graphics (mostly gone now I believe). MozillaQuest is a series of articles written by Mike Angelo who has no connection to mozilla.org or any 'inside information' about the goings on of the Mozilla project. mozilla.org has in the past made attempts to correct the misinformation that is published at this site but the requests went pretty much unanswered and so we've turned to simply ignoring the site. It is a shame that slashdot, a place that many in the open source community turn for information, continues to point its readers at this kind of sensationalism.

    --Asa
    (my opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or mozilla.org)

  11. Re:Doubling bugs...razor needs sharpening???? by darkPHi3er · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Occam's Razor says that you're wrong, and that Mozilla is getting buggier...."

    even assuming the reports of the rate of rise of bug reports is increasing, and further assuming the rate of rise is as steep as indicated, ol' Billy of Ock wouldn't necessarily agree with you, try some other possible explanations....

    1. the code portions showing the increase are relatively new and have not had the equivalent amount of debug time that the more mature sections of the code have been given

    2. the coders producing the buggier code are new to the project and are still learning how to implement and design their particular sections, even highly experienced coders/designers have a rise their error rate when changing to an unfamilar design, this is usu short-term and correctable w/o a ton of effort

    3. the bugs located could be on the "other" side of the code, say the JVM or the security sandbox or OS threading model or ??????

    ...and let's not forget that even M$ has acknowledged that W2K has shipped with nearly 70,000 ***KNOWN*** bugs....

    the Mozilla Quest article does not classify the bugs by type or location, how many "app killers" are there? how many "OS killers"? versus how many are UI related where a drop down box doesn't autoscroll or automatically alphabetize?????

    the entire MozillaQuest article reeked of hostility towards the current Mozilla development structure...

    ...as someone who is NOT a daily Linux user, and who doesn't use any Mozilla on ANY platform i found the tone of the article very opinionated and hostile...it sounded more political than analytical and seemed to have an agenda greater than informing the Mozilla faithful....

    maybe justified, maybe not, i don't know...but there's way insufficient info in that article to conclude "...Mozilla is getting buggier"...

    --
    Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
  12. One reason 1.0 is important... by brunes69 · · Score: 4, Informative

    For all those who keep saying "Who cares when 1.0 is coming out when 0.93 is out now", and you are somewhat right, don't forget that RedHat has said (and I believe other distros will follow suit) that when mozilla reaches 1.0, it will stop carrying the horrid Netscape 4.7x altogether, in the distro, and focus on Mozilla as the default browser. This support alone will help Mozilla greatly.

  13. Bugs Approach a Constant Number by goingware · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I believe it was IBM that first figured out that bugs in a large project asymptotically approach a constant number.

    You may fix the worst bugs, but as time goes on more and more bugs are found, and eventually bugs pretty much crop up as you fix them.

    The thing is, although bugs are constantly appearing, the frequency of the average bug decreases. You start getting bugs that happen only once every thousand user-years. Try as you might, you can't squash them all.

    There is some hope, in that you can use some fundamentally better method of software engineering and things get suddenly better. The bugs still approach a constant level, but it is a smaller level. Back when IBM studied this, it was still common to write operating systems in assembly code. Using a high-level language is so much easier to debug that you can achieve better bug rates.

    But at the same time, we have much greater ambitions for our software. Mozilla 1.0 will have far more features than Microsoft Word 1.0 did.

    --
    -- Could you use my software consulting serv
    1. Re:Bugs Approach a Constant Number by Hobart · · Score: 2
      > I believe it was IBM that first figured out that bugs in a large project asymptotically approach a constant number.

      Mr Crawford --
      Does it have to be a requirement that there will always be bugs?
      I would like to believe that given strong specifications, proper coding practice, accounting for situations, and no unreasonable time constraints, it's possible to produce a bug-free piece of software that performs its task correctly on a given system... I've read Worse is Better
      --
      o/~ Join us now and share the software ...
    2. Re:Bugs Approach a Constant Number by hta · · Score: 2

      How I wish you were right.....
      "The mythical man-month" quoted research showing that most big programming projects could be characterized by a single number.
      This number was the average number of new bugs introduced, uncovered or otherwise made noticeable by fixing an old bug.
      If this number is 1, you should start planning for replacing the system.
      This is one reason why INTERFACES are important: the more isolated a fix is, the bigger your chance of keeping your number 1.
      IBM S/360 was the OS where this was first made explicit, I think.

    3. Re:Bugs Approach a Constant Number by SpeelingChekka · · Score: 2

      You may fix the worst bugs, but as time goes on more and more bugs are found, and eventually bugs pretty much crop up as you fix them

      I guess that depends on your software's structural design. Our older systems where I work used to have such horrible design, that it was nearly impossible to fix or add *anything* without something else breaking. Often, something seemingly totally unrelated to the change would break! It gets to the point where you're afraid to change anything for fear of the repurcussions. We had no version control either.

      We've rewritten everything, and we've put a huge amount of effort (and experience) into a decent design, and not only is our software MUCH more robust, but our known "buglists" for version 1 have in the recent past dropped to 0. Yes, zero, we have no known bugs anymore. These are reusable libraries consisting of over 100000 lines of code. We completed "version 1" recently, and the rate at which we currenly find new bugs is maybe three or four a week, so keeping the figure at "0" is now quite easy. It takes a lot of hard work to get there, and a "feature freeze" is a requirement (very difficult when programmers always just want to add "this cool new feature" or "that useful new feature"). Some todo's move over to the "version 2" todo list, and the remaining stuff (bugs and minor design issues) just need to be tackled, one by one.

      Could you provide a reference to the IBM study? It sounds fishy to me. It seems to me that bug-list graphs have a lot to do with how well-design the software is, and how disciplined developers are.

  14. Please Slashdot never again post MozQuest info by caspy7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Please, someone tell those that are responsible for posting these to never ever again post any information found on MozillaQuest. Please don't even bother visiting the site so that he gets hits. This guy sensationalises information and just plain makes stuff up. MozillaQuestQuest.com is a good place to point out his contradictions and such.
    My question is how can we delegitimize this guy so the real media doesn't take his lies and run?

    1. Re:Please Slashdot never again post MozQuest info by SpeelingChekka · · Score: 2

      Yup, that MozQuest article is just plain FUD. Perhaps this guy is trying to get hired by Microsoft PR department, because this article is such beautiful FUD that I don't think MS could do a better job. The way he lies with statistics is beautiful.

      I can't help but think that MozillaQuest MUST be a site run by Microsoft. For one thing, the site is butt ugly, to lead people to think 'geez these opensource guys are unprofessional'. Secondly, the naming of the site seems to be such as to try fool people into thinking its associated with Mozilla. Thirdly, its packed with FUD.

      I mean, lets be logical about this - why would someone intent on dissing Mozilla create a site that on the surface looks like a Mozilla fan site?

      This sort of crap happens every day - I wouldn't be surprised if its just another part of MS's "fake grassroots" spin campaign. Movie companies do this sort of thing every day (create fake "fan" sites to gather "grassroots" support). There are web-design companies that specialise in creating fake "personal" sites, complete with deliberate ugliness and unprofessionalism. I would be VERY surprised if MS did not have such fake sites.

  15. we'll be fine, even if it never appears by jchristopher · · Score: 3, Interesting
    There are so many really, really good alternatives to Mozilla now that it really doesn't matter whether it ever appears or not.

    The other alternative browsers (Konqueror, Opera, etc.) are really making progress. Opera is VERY usable on both Win32 and Linux.

    1. Re:we'll be fine, even if it never appears by jchristopher · · Score: 2

      It (the browser, the newsreader) runs slower than dung on my Celeron 333 / RedHat 7.1 machine with 350 megs of RAM. Is that what you consider "better"?

  16. Re:I think it'll be ready before 2002. by JeremyYoung · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've never had the problem of it using 70% of the CPU. I get the normal spikes I'd get with any other program, but no steady use over 5% from Mozilla, even with 7-8 windows open. The only web-page that hasn't worked correctly for me is the MSNBC front page, but all the news article pages on it work fine. I haven't had any problems with any other webpages with 0.9.2. Flash works fine, I can even get the embedded video working good, and Java of course works good. This is a fine browser as is as far as I can tell. I'd love to see more innovation in the interface, but since Microsoft isn't really innovating in that area (*cough*no competition*cough*cough*), why complain?

    I don't use newsgroups, but I have been using the Mozilla e-mail program as my primary e-mail proggie at home, and it's been doing a decent job. The interface stinks, and it's rather inflexible in folder creation, but I haven't lost any e-mail, and it doesn't crash on me.

    --

    Go Lakers!

  17. Re:Mozilla into 2002! by Kwikymart · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The quality of code in a project can be measured by the number of bug reports...

    Well, thats complete bullshit unless the project you are comparing it to are exactly the same. You cant compare mozilla to any other web browser with bug reports like that unless they have all the same features. Even then, it is still not a good idea to use this as a benchmark.

    --

    Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
  18. Re:Please stop posting MozQuest crap. by Malcontent · · Score: 2

    Then why are you here in the first place?

    --

    War is necrophilia.

  19. www.MozillaQuestQuest.com by ChrisCampbell47 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    To put a finer point on what Asa said, the author of MQ is, by all evidence available, a fool.


    See www.MozillaQuestQuest.com for a parody. I assume he works for Microsoft, the poor guy.


    The Mozilla crowd has learned to ignore him; Slashdot should too.

    1. Re:www.MozillaQuestQuest.com by asa · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'll miss the favicon's in the title bar and bookmarks, and the ability to enable cookies and JavaScript on a per-site basis.

      You can enable cookies and JavaScript on a per site basis. You can go one step further too. You can disable specific bits of JS on a per domain basis. You can, for example block a group of sites from opening new windows or resizing your window. You could block a site from moving your windows or altering the status bar text. See Configurable Security Policies for more information.

      --Asa

  20. Re:problem : ( by PurpleBob · · Score: 2, Funny

    That's a feature. If you had managed to send an e-mail to Mike Angelo and gotten a reply, your inbox might have had a stupidity overload and caused all the other messages you would ever recieve to spontaneously turn into badly-formatted sources of misinformation with ugly and irrelevant blue buttons on the side.

    Now aren't you glad Mozilla sacrificed its own process to protect you from this horrible fate?

    --
    Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
  21. Re:mozillaquest in no way affiliated with mozilla. by Matthew+Luckie · · Score: 2, Funny
    MozillaQuest is a series of articles written by Mike Angelo who has no connection to mozilla.org or any 'inside information' about the goings on of the Mozilla project. mozilla.org has in the past made attempts to correct the misinformation that is published at this site but the requests went pretty much unanswered and so we've turned to simply ignoring the site.
    Michael Angelo has a serious credibility issue, being a teenage mutant ninga turtle and all

    cowabunga dude

    keep up the good work

  22. Re:mozillaquest in no way affiliated with mozilla. by Matthew+Luckie · · Score: 2, Funny

    Michael Angelo has a serious credibility issue, being a teenage mutant ninga turtle and all

    i spelt ninja wrong, it is me with the credibility issue

  23. So.... by EvlPenguin · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...who else here thinks the only reason there is a Mozilla project is that Netscape said to themselves: "well, this code is just too fucked up, lets give it away"?

    --

    --
    #nohup cat /dev/dsp > /dev/hda & killall -9 getty
    1. Re:So.... by Salsaman · · Score: 2
      Actually you are right.

      The NS 4.x codebase was fucked almost beyond repair (partly I believe because NS was trying to keep up with all the proprietary changes that MS were making to HTML).

      So Netscape gave it away. Then after a year or so, they realised that instead of trying to fix it, it would be easier to start again from scratch. Hence NS 6.

    2. Re:So.... by scrytch · · Score: 2

      I believe because NS was trying to keep up with all the proprietary changes that MS were making to HTML

      <layer>yeah, netscape would <blink>never</blink> do anything like that</layer>

      --
      I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
  24. Re:Bug Triage & 1.0 matters by asa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Point here is that 1.0 has meaning to me, should it be fairly robust I will encourage my friends to use it and install it on a bunch of machines that I don't update with every release.

    What if Mozilla 0.9.8 is "fairly robust"? Will you not encourage others to use it because it is not called 1.0? What if the plans for 0.9.9 and 1.0 do not include any improvements in the "robust"ness of the app? Is is useful to hold off recommending it until the magic number 1.0 happens? What if we had never moved from the Mx Milestone naming scheme? We'd be at about Milestone M26 now. Would you wait until it hit M30 or M50 or maybe M100 before encouraging others to use it?

    Of course, they are not going to fix 1500 bugs by v1.0

    Actually, we average about 1500 bugs fixed every Milestone (about every 5 to 6 weeks). So I sure hope we can fix at least that many in the Milestones we have between now and 1.0.

    BTW, I appreciate the sentiment of your comments. Don't take my nits as anything but nits and my questions as genuine curiosity.

    --Asa

  25. Walk a mile in another's shoes... by penguin_nipple · · Score: 5, Insightful
    IMHO, 0.9.3 is an excellent browser. It's installed on all my machines ,including on both partitions of my Development box at work (w2k and slack 8.0). Yes, development my appear to be slow, but I'd simply like to point out to a few things

    1. Mozilla is a massive project, whose (main) goal is a natively running browser on multiple platforms, this is no small task and they have done well thus far. I don't think anyone can point to a browser that runs on as many different platforms as well as Moz does.
    2. Mozilla was one of the first major Open Source initiatives undertaken, and in fact must have been a logisitical nightmare to get rolling - especially taking into account the fact that they wiped the proverbial board clean with Mozilla - however, consider all the other issues that go into an open code distribution system.
    3. We have no other development process to use as a benchmark to the development of Mozilla. Up until this point in time, all one has ever gotten is binary distributions. Very little insight and even less information from previous organizations.
    4. Agreed, the much hyped 'browser-wars' are over, thank god, IMHO, those wars ended up coming down to distribution issues that Microsoft capitalized (unfairly) upon. As we all know, 99% of the world will use the browser that smacks them in the face at home. As for the corporate scene, many organizations continue to use Netscape and (from people I know who deal with these issues) will move to a stable, compliant browser when available. Which is in fact becoming more of a critical issue - called them 'web enabled' or 'network aware' applications. I would point to .NET as an example of how this scheme seems to be gaining prominence.
    5. Mozilla is quite a bit more than just a browser or mark up renderer. Granted most of you wouldn't ever need the capabilities provided in XUL, but many application developers might. Cry cry cry about bloat all you want - if you are using a windoze box to read this, then you are familiar with bloat. You may bitch and moan about XUL and how horrible it is, however, it is essentially providing the multi-platform capabilities of Mozilla. And for me anyhow, it is important to have a rich, dynamic, and actively developed multiplatform browser. Try not to overlook that contribution - Mozilla is an extremely flexible piece of code.
    6. I am not going to put down or put on a pedestal any of the other available browsers. I use them all, on numerous platforms, both open and closed. Konqueror is great for quick and dirty net searches. Opera is great on low-end boxen. Explorer is well...explorer...*sigh*. Mozilla is quick, stable and does everything I want to do online. This is just my opinion.

      From the pace of development, Mozilla is doing fairly well. If you're a programmer, you should realize the scope of what they are doing over at Mozilla. As for Slashdot, why exactly would you guys post an article so blatantly and obviously mis-informed?? Generally I look to /. to give up interesting news, somewhat outside the normal of FUD and goofie marketing/media coverage we see everywhere on the net.

      Could someone from /. explain the motivation for posting the story in the first place? Not that an article which is critical of Mozilla or any open source should not be posted. In fact, critical articles are fine. So long as they are informed and well written which this one obviously is not.

      Just a note to Asa - your posts are very obviously showing a note of tension. Don't worry about it, you guys are doing a helluva job and from one (semi) sane coder to another I'd just like you guys at Mozilla to know that your broswer is sweet. They'll always bitch abut something *shrug*

  26. Some perspective by billh · · Score: 4, Funny

    While Mozilla has been under development:

    Business plans have been written, VC found, businesses opened, millions made and millions lost.

    We have sent probes to Mars, only to be shot down by the Martians.

    Hundreds of species have gone extinct. Most of which were yet to be discovered.

    People have met, married, and divorced.

    I went from a shell account to SDSL. Of course, I still use the shell account.

    There was peace in the Middle East. Sort of. I think.

    The Olympics. More than once.

    A president got blown by an intern, and we've stopped talking about it on a daily basis.

    Another intern has disappeared, and we might have stopped talking of her by the time we reach 1.0.

    So is it just me, or does this project seem like it is taking an insane amount of time to complete??

  27. So when do we see a 1.0? by Metrol · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a FreeBSD and NT user who designs web pages, layout and font sizes really matter to me. Although I mainly use Konqueror under FreeBSD, it has far more to do with the simpler interface than it's rendering engine. To date, I haven't see any other browser display layout, fonts, and deal with Javascript better than Mozilla.

    With that being said, it's still quite apparent that Mozilla is an 800lbs. gorilla when it comes to memory and CPU usage. It has gotten a LOT better in the last few builds. If these kinds of optimization issues were worked out by the next release, I would happily convert myself and others that rely on my judgement on over to Mozilla.

    Thing is, even as I type this on ye olde Netscape 4.78 after browsing around to several web pages, NT is reporting about 17M of memory allocated. Just to start Mozilla is 22M, and I haven't gone anywhere yet. To further illustrate the point, I went and opened up the newsgroup readers in each, subscribed to a group, and then pulled in all the headers of that group. NS 4.7 comes in at around 18M after this operation. Mozilla at 40.5M. Not going to bother listing numbers off of FreeBSD as I'm still running 0.9.3 on there.

    Personally, it's just frustrating as heck to watch. There we have this Gecko engine was does a truly beautiful job of properly rendering a web page regardless of the platform. Exactly what a browser should do! Wrapped around this is a monster of a UI that even to this day still feels like I'm trying to interact with some bad Java applet. Oh sure it is pretty, but the reaction time even on a 1.2Ghz machine is noticeable.

    Looking back, I'm finding myself in total agreement with critics I disagreed with before over one point. XUL. The Mozilla folks repeatedly told us all how much longer it would take to develop this project if they stuck with native OS widgets. I just have to wonder how much time has been wasted while the resources of the Mozilla project could have had Win32, Mac, Qt, GTK versions out the door by now? Certainly projects like Galeon have shown this could have been done.

    Mozilla made a wrong turn early on (IMHO) with XUL. Perhaps projects like Galeon can be the saving grace. Problem is, those projects are out on the fringe, while IE is dead center of the web universe defining the standards across the board. Mozilla is FAR more than just a browser at this point. It's the last chance gasp at taking control of web standards and the Internet itself from Microsoft.

    --
    The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
    1. Re:So when do we see a 1.0? by Salsaman · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But the mozilla team have consistently stated that if mozilla were not based on XUL, there would have been no Linux version.

      Besides, it makes sense from a programming perspective - you *should* abstract out the interface from the computational part of the program. It also makes porting to a new platform dead easy, you can simply use whatever graphical toolkit is already existent on that platfrom, and just write a compatibility layer.

      And as for the responsiveness issue, personally I find no difference between native windows apps and mozilla and native linux apps and mozilla.

      Plus I am sure that there will still be a few optimisations before a 1.0 release. If you knew anything about software development (which you appear not to) you would realise that the standard process is:

      1) get something that works, so that people can start development in other areas

      2) once it's working, start to optimise it, preferably without changing the interfaces.

      I remember back when M16 came out people were saying mozilla was a POS, it was time to bury the project, it would never be usable, etc,etc. As somebody who'd been following the project since the start, I could see that some big optimisations were being a worked on, and mozilla was about to improve radically.

      I told people that and was laughed at. But lo and behold, a few months later we got the 0.9.x milestones and as I predicted mozilla became very usable, to the point where people are now using it in preference to other browsers.

      I believe now that many of the big optimisations are done and dusted, we will start to see a lot of the smaller optimisations worked on. The interface will improve, memory usage will go down.

      In short, don't write mozilla off because it doesn't use native toolsets. Give it a chance, and we will see what happens before 1.0 comes out.

    2. Re:So when do we see a 1.0? by Metrol · · Score: 2

      It also makes porting to a new platform dead easy, you can simply use whatever graphical toolkit is already existent on that platfrom, and just write a compatibility layer.

      But it's not using native widgets on any platform. A massive amount of time has been spent recreating open dialogs, scroll bars, drop down menus, and all manner of UI objects. My objection to this is that they could have had a dozen native front ends together in the time it's taken to recreate all the various tid bits that Microsoft, Apple, Gtk, and Qt (to name a few) have already done. Galeon was put together with a team of 9 folks in a very short time. K-Meleon for Windows has a team of 4 guys.

      In all fairness, I do happen to like the "idea" of what XUL represents. The ability to take what started as a way to do skins and turn it into a platform of it's own has a lot of appeal. The only thing that I'm questioning here is the timing. CSS and XML should have been #1 priorities, with XUL slated for Mozilla 2.0.

      The delay here as Mozilla goes about reinventing everything that looks round will prove to be more crippling than a simple technical problem. First off, it's ruined Netscape's name in the browser market for everyone I've talked to who was silly enough to install 6.0. Secondly, it's put everyone else in the field in a catch up position to anything that IE does. It's going to take a LOT more than optimization to recover what was lost.

      Here's to hoping that it can recover.

      --
      The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
    3. Re:So when do we see a 1.0? by roca · · Score: 3

      Galeon etc are fine web browser shells but they don't provide nearly as much UI as Mozilla does --- especially if you include Mozilla Mailnews, Composer, etc. Making UI for all that stuff is a lot of work. So it's hard to say for sure that it would have been less work to do independent native UIs.

      Galeon etc also use Mozilla's widgets in their content areas for HTML widgets ... getting native widgets to work there is hard because they have to be stylable with CSS, work with the Javascript/DOM event model, etc. Even IE doesn't use native widgets there. So a lot of the work behind XUL had to be done anyway.
      It's great that the native UIs are being done. But even with hindsight it's hard to say whether the decision to go with XUL was clearly right or wrong.

      Of course, going forward, having XUL around is pretty cool.

    4. Re:So when do we see a 1.0? by warpeightbot · · Score: 2
      Perhaps projects like Galeon can be the saving grace.
      They are.

      I'm typing this on Galeon 0.11.5, and while Galeon is being a memory pig at 39mb, it is pretty fast, and it has a lot of cool features that respond in a reasonable manner (tabbed browsing, icons, session recovery). Yeah, it's got a few bugs, but it's VERY useable, version number be damned.

      I have currently on-system Galeon, Mozilla (0.9.3, still very useable but a CPU hog as well), Opera (damn that thing is LIGHT! still some CSS bugs; the Linux version lags Win32 in that respect), Konqueror (plain, but functional, and also light... but no tabs like Opera), Amaya (for standards checking, in case a site acts funny), Netscape (the only one I leave Flash-enabled), lynx, and links. All of them have uses... but Galeon is the one I use the most, just because it's that good, that cool.

      Asa and the gang have come a LONG way since M18, and Marco and Ricardo and company have built on that success... I could give a rip about version numbers, what I care about is functionality. If they want to go the Debian route and get *all* the bugs out before releasing 1.0, that's fine with me, as long as they keep putting out milestones. Frankly, except for the way plugins work (or don't), I'm really happy with what they've got now...

      Which leads me to the zinger: if we can do all this with BETA software (Mozilla 0.9.3, Galeon 0.11.5, Gnumeric 0.67, AbiWord 0.7.14, openssl 0.9.5a, LILO 0.21, yadda yadda yadda... out of the 631 packages on my Mandrake 7.2 system, 139 of them, including many vital ones like pam 0.72, have version numbers >1.0)... what will the world look like when all that stuff is finally 1.0?

      Me, I'm looking forward to it...

      --
      Need a Unix guru?

  28. Re: Astroturf by roguerez · · Score: 2, Flamebait

    You can try to make fun of him, but the fact is, Internet Explorer is by far the best browser at the moment. Mozilla/Opera/Konq/etc. all have specialities but lack in other area's. IE has it all: speed, rendering, functionality, footprint, etc.

    Hate to say it but the Mozilla project has had their chance. In 2,5 year they didn't produce anything that is better than codebase they started with.

    They fell in the typical 'committee' trap, where a committee decides what goes into a product. These are usually personal projects of the committee members which haven't a lot to do with the project at hand. But they put them in the project anyway. User wishes are not found interesting.

    Well, we now have the result. After 2,5 of dabbling, Mozilla - overall - still hasn't risen above the Netscape 4.x level. Everything that has been improved has been compensated, unfortunately, by the bloatedness, instability, memory hunger, static look and feel, etc.

    This isn't really a product for actual use by people. It's the result of committe-steered software development and in that context it's really a disgrace for the open source community. It only serves as an icon for those in the committee who saw their useless ideas get into the project.

    Sorry, but 2,5 years for this? I valued my time better and moved on.

  29. Re:OT: Microsoft and IE by Zico · · Score: 2

    I really hope you didn't spend too much time thinking about it, because it's not interesting; your post is actually stunningly vacuous.


    Anyway, if you really bothered to think about it, you'd realize that there's no reason why major OS components need to be tied to a certain OS version. I hope you don't think that you're stuck with one version of glibc depending upon the version of the Linux distribution you're using. Or that it's "BS," as you put it, that older OSes that aren't yet using IPv6 won't change their name once they do support it. Same with different versions of MDAC, MSXML, etc, being able to be used by different OSes. Please give it a little more thought next time, okay buddy?

  30. Mozilla (song) by Ukab+the+Great · · Score: 2

    (with apologies to the Blue Oyster Cult)

    With the best of intentions and Netscape's old code
    They produce a browser that tends to explode

    Rendering pages in pure XML
    XUL's really great, but performance is hell

    Standards compliant every way they can be
    But slow as a bear when compared to IE

    Oh, no. We wish these bugs would go
    Go go Mozilla, yeah
    Oh, no. The rendering's so slow
    Go go Mozilla, yeah

    History explains as a matter of course
    How mega codebases deter open source
    Mozilla!

  31. Not '1.0', but 'good' by Frodo · · Score: 2

    The problem is not 1.0, but being usable. RH is understandably vary of the browser "underdevelopment" - it, unlike Mozilla, can not say their paying customers: "OK, it would work when we are ready do make it work". It should deliver the product now. And Mozilla, while being useful browser, still has a number of problems, among which performance and memory footprint is not the least. When RH says: "when it will be 1.0" they most probably mean: "since you are good respectable guys and would not call it 1.0 until is is really good, we want to pick it up there when it's really ready for us". From this POV 1.0 is important for Mozilla team more than for RH and RH is just trusing Mozilla team to do a good 1.0.

    --
    -- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
  32. Visit mozillaquestquest.com for more great humour! by Karora · · Score: 2, Funny


    A hilarious parody of MozillaQuest can be found at http://mozillaquestquest.com/ although really, does it need a parody?

    MozillaQuest is usually so creative in his reporting that he might as well not bother. His claims bear no resemblance to any reality I participate in, and there is little point in rebutting him. If we all ignore him then perhaps he will go away? We can hope so.

    --

    ...heellpppp! I've been captured by little green penguins!
  33. Re: Astroturf by WWWWolf · · Score: 2, Informative
    IE has it all: speed, rendering, functionality, footprint, etc.

    ...annoying middle mouse button behavior, annoying habit of NOT remembering what size the new windows should be, and if I touch the mouse wheel - well, I may as well go to the Moon and back and it may have scrolled the first line... =)

    And yes, it has a Footprint with a capital F. (Not that Mozilla would do any better on that field...) However, Mozilla wins here - it's probably somewhat smaller to download. =)

    After 2,5 of dabbling, Mozilla - overall - still hasn't risen above the Netscape 4.x level.

    Significantly better PNG support? Wow, CSS implementation that actually works? Less rendering bugs? Million times better bookmark manager? Search capabilities with configurable search engines? Save dialogs that work while Motif's save dialogs still don't work? And it doesn't crash every 5 minutes (I haven't yet got 0.9.3 to crash)? Themability to combat the general ugliness of Motif? Progressive rendering of pages (No freezes when some New Media Guru used tables dishonorably)?

    I think it has come a long way since NS4...

  34. A question for those "using" 0.9.x by hatless · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've been using Mozilla and Netscape 6.x about half the time for a few years now, and the past few months have brought dramatic speed improvements. XUL is finally fast enough to be usable on machines slower than a 1.2 GHz x86, and mail folders open quickly enough to work with.

    Mozilla 1.0 isn't a terribly meaningful concept, especially given that 0.9.3 served as the core of a genuinely commercial-quality Netscape 6.1--at least in most respects. But I do have a question for those who Mozilla or Netscape 6.x as their primary browsing and mail tool:

    What's everyone doing about proper MIME support? Don't you people (and the developers!) ever send non-text e-mail attachments? Mozilla and Netscape 6 ship with virtually empty mimeTypes.rdf files and no auto-build from exisiting legacy MIME settings whether at the system level or from old Netscape 4.x configs, which means out of the box no external helper apps work--and worse, outbound email attachments other than HTML, text/plain, GIFs and JPEGs are mangled, transported as inline text. These empty MIME settings are years old.

    Even more upsetting, the dialogs to edit and create mimeTypes entries from inside Mozilla/NS6 are broken: the checkbox that activates outbound MIME type declaration for a given mimetype is inactive, leaving hand-editing the poorly-documented RDF file as the only recourse. Not only that, but the Un*x Mozilla/NS6 doesn't seem to use the current environment in launching helper apps. Is it so hard or insecure or distressingly platform-specific to have the PATH environment variable--or use of "which" or "locate"--when launching helpers? Why must users manually locate the fully qualified path to their MP3 player, PDF viewer and so forth instead of simply entering, say, "acroread" or "xmms" in the dialog (or the RDF)?

    Are the Netscape/Mozilla developers and those of you who claim to use Mozilla full-time passing around a hacked-up mimeTypes.rdf that isn't being shared with the public, and isn't even in an experimental branch of CVS? Or do you just never send email attachments?

    And more to the point: doesn't the Netscape 6.x dev team ever send email attachments? How about the QA team? Are they all using Pine instead? And if they are, how does that jibe with the idea of eating dogfood?

    Does Netscape even have a QA team?

    I've thought of fleshing out mimeTypes.rdf myself, but I can't even figure out who owns it. Mail/News? Prefs? The core browser team? With the way the project owners point fingers, can I expect anyone to lay claim to it at all?

    Maybe this is the problem.

    Don't listen to anyone who says AOL's buyout has derailed the Mozilla project. They're clearly not taking an active role at all.

    1.0 means different things in different projects, but one would expect nearly a year into the .9.x series--and two months from the putative release of a 1.0--that proper test code would be in place for core functionality like this and that things would be in a bug fix stage, not that inbound and outbound MIME handling would still be awaiting its first real-world testing two months before 1.x and more than a year after the release of Netscape 6.0.

    1. Re:A question for those "using" 0.9.x by roca · · Score: 2

      > Don't listen to anyone who says AOL's buyout has derailed the Mozilla
      > project. They're clearly not taking an active role at all.

      You mean, except for the 50+ full time AOL employees who are doing coding and QA for Mozilla.

  35. Re: Astroturf by roguerez · · Score: 2

    Yeah, I bothered about two months ago for the last time (a 9.x release). It didn't change my opinion. But I bet the latest release would!!

  36. Re:Doubling bugs...razor needs sharpening???? by naasking · · Score: 2

    Mozilla-like bugs such as "crashes repeatedly", "doesn't render web pages" and "none of the features seem to have been finished".

    uh huh. And just how many of those do you think there really are?

  37. Re: Astroturf by jandrese · · Score: 2

    Actually the small footprint of IE is a lie. IE is actually fairly large but a lot of it's code is integrated into the OS (ever wonder why Explorer takes soo long to start up?). As far a rendering speed is concerned, current Mozillas and IE seem to be neck and neck in my experiance, although my machine is fast enough that the big bottleneck is my slow connection to the internet.

    The last half of your post is just pure troll and I'm not going to bother responding to it past this point.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  38. Real software developers... by NineNine · · Score: 2

    have versions. That's so that people don't have to download and install a new version of the software every single night. That's totally unacceptable. But what is, is waiting until a good number of bugs have been squashed, then formally releasing the software as version 1.0.

  39. What's in a Name? What's in a Version Number? by bwt · · Score: 2

    As far as I'm concerned, Mozilla should have stayed with the milestone numbering system.

    I HATE all the conversations about "When will it be 1.0?". The version number is an arbitrary string that has no affect on the code it is stamped on! All it does it make people complain.

    Labelling something 1.0 does not remove any bugs. It does not mean that all severe bugs have been found. It does not mean that the next patch won't cause latent memory leaks or security problems or hard to reproduce crashes. In fact, it basically means nothing other than somebody decided to label it that way. If we called the damn thing 1.0 right now, the code would be exactly the same as if we called it 0.1. Arguing over version numbers is the stupidest activity programmers do. It's basically the one moronic marketing practice that hasn't been abandoned by the open source community.

    What exactly was wrong with taking a nightly build every 4 to 6 weeks, testing it a little more thoroughly, and giving it the next whole number? They should have kept going after M18: 0.6 = M19, 0.7 = M20, 0.8 = M21, 0.8.1 = M22, 0.9 = M23, 0.9.1 = M24, 0.9.2 = M25, 0.9.2.1 = M26, 0.9.3 = M27.

  40. Re:mozillaquest in no way affiliated with mozilla. by alanjstr · · Score: 2

    Ah. I don't recall seeing a big disclaimer saying that the site was in no way official. Actually, I followed the link to the article from NewsForge. Sorry for the confusion.

  41. Re:mozillaquest in no way affiliated with mozilla. by alanjstr · · Score: 2

    Well, now that we've spread some FUD, how about a nice official write-up of how Mozilla is progressing. Perhaps Slashdotters can submit questions, like "Why is 1.0 considered 1.0 if it will have known bugs?"

  42. 0.9.3 is good too. by Thag · · Score: 2

    The only problems I have with it are related to printing out web pages.

    It's certainly much better than the old Navigator. Can't wait for 1.0!

    Jon Acheson

    --
    All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
  43. Re:Remeber Windows 2000 by MindStalker · · Score: 2

    Nobody said that the high number of bugs, in any way translated to high quality of code.
    But there is two factors to look at.
    1. The amount of serious bugs is low, this translates to a high quality product.
    2. There are many people using it, many of these people are developer types, who notice even the smallest bugs, most of which are simply small things that may have been overlooked, of which in a major product, there are millions of small things. As the code gets better, more people use it, as more people use it, more bugs get reported for small insignificant things. Eventually someday all these small insignificant bugs will be fixed, then people will still be reporting bugs, because they want some feature, or wish for the browser to act a certain way and it acts a different way. So they add this feature, or the option to make it work either way by an option in the preferences menu. These new features, will have bugs, or not work in the exact way that people want them too, and these will be reported as bugs.
    In no way does any of this implicate that mozilla or any other feature rich product is bad, simply that it is evolving.

  44. Re: Astroturf by baptiste · · Score: 2
    Actually the small footprint of IE is a lie. IE is actually fairly large but a lot of it's code is integrated into the OS

    Amen to that! I kept having problems with IE 5.5 and 6 in Win 98 - a page would load but the window was locked up - the progress bar got all the way across and stayed there. Bringing up the file explorer - same problem.

    Eventually (after 15 or 30 seconds) the windows would unfreeze and all was fine till I loaded the next page - starts all over.

    Problem? A permanently mounted disk on a server that had been shutdown. I delete the drive map and the problem goes away. I'm sorry but a mapped drive to a shutdown server should NOT cause a browser to lockup on page loads. Integration is BAD!

  45. Re: Astroturf by Tackhead · · Score: 2
    > Significantly better PNG support? Wow, CSS implementation that actually works? Less rendering bugs? Million times better bookmark manager? Search capabilities with configurable search engines? Save dialogs that work while Motif's save dialogs still don't work? And it doesn't crash every 5 minutes (I haven't yet got 0.9.3 to crash)? Themability to combat the general ugliness of Motif? Progressive rendering of pages (No freezes when some New Media Guru used tables dishonorably)?

    All very good reasons why Mozilla on non-Windows platforms beats Netscape on non-Windows platforms.

    But the original user started by saying:

    > > IE has it all: speed, rendering, functionality, footprint, etc.

    You're right when you say Moz has come a long way since NS4.

    But NS4 isn't the competition anymore, is it?

    With respect to the Mozilla team - nobody asked for an XUL-wowzers-skinnable application platform to replace the desktop. All we wanted was a web browser. And when it took over 2.5 years for you to develop it, most of us got tired of waiting and went with IE on our Windoze boxen.

  46. galeon by big.ears · · Score: 2

    You may know this already, but Galeon has tabs too. Plus, its based on Mozilla's gecko. It has a very plain interface, but I find myself using it more and more. I switch between it and Mozilla frequently, and I only wish I could use the same history for both, so my followed links will stay the same color.

  47. Re:Remeber Windows 2000 by MindStalker · · Score: 2

    Well first off all W2K is not a community project, so people only report bugs on serious issues that hinder there ability to work, they do not report bugs requesting features, or mentioning a misspelling, as asking that something works differently. That is done by user surveys and inhouse bug testing, of which many reports like that are made, but not publically posted because they are not officially "bugs". But Mozilla really doesn't care what you call as bugs and its all lumped into one. Call it a feature, or call it a bug itself, thats just the way this specific community works.

  48. Re:Illiterati get modded up, apparently. by Malcontent · · Score: 2

    I know what it is you moron. Here were my points which you obviously missed altogether so I'll dumb them down for ya.

    1) It's not a immutable law of nature. It's just a cute saying without any basis in mathematics, statistics, or science.

    2) There are no "two competing theories which make exactly the same prediction" in fact there are no predictions being made at all. The airhead who posted the original post tried to use occams razor as some sort of a proof that the the number of bugs were going up.

    3)Life is complex and relying cute sayings and looking for the simplest answer is a surefire way to arrive at the wrong answer.

    TO blindly state that the number of bugs are increasing because "occam's razor says so" is just stupid. Why not go do some statistical analysis. Go see how many of the bugs are dups or feature requests or occur only on exotic platforms. Why not interview some mozilla developers or project managers. Why not look at the severity of the bugs.

    None not out intrepid slashdot poster. He has no time for actual thinking. Occams razor says mozilla is full of bugs and who are we to argue with the razor.

    --

    War is necrophilia.