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High-speed Internet Access: Power Lines For Real
securitas writes "ID reports that German utilities started offering high speed Internet access via power lines last month, and Sweden and the Netherlands are not far behind. The companies claim to have resolved problems of interference and line noise. US trials are taking place in secret with Reston VA based PowerLine Technologies. Nortel and Siemens abandoned the technology in 1999 but if this is for real DSL and cable may have a new competitor."
If they can actually deliver on what they promise, it will be interesting. With DSL vendors folding left and right, cable seems to have a clear path to domination. It will be good to see some competition.
Of course, it'll be interesting to see the first guy who "wires" his own house get fried.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
We all know that our "Friends" at the power company are as good of a monopoly as we could possibly ever know - perhaps even better than the phone/telco monopolies because deregulation occurs at the city/state level instead of at the national level with FCC Regulation....
So... We go from the hands of one monopoly (Cable) to another monopoly (Phone) to yet a third monopoly (Power).
I'm not sure which devil is going to be better.
For areas with limited telco/cable service, this may be the monopoly - and we know how the energy companies are on rates...
Another question - will this be handled as well as power in California? I hope not...
quis custodiet ipsos custodes - Juvenal
I live in Germany and all I can tell you that German Telecom would not like that! They are pushing DSL here like crazy. They discontiued flat-rate for ISDN and POTS, so if you want flat rate you have to get T-DSL. No other companys offer flat rate.
What German Util company are you talking about. I would like to order it!
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
I hope it's true this time. I am soooo tired of Qwest dragging its sorry butt when I live in between two neighbourhoods that have DSL and I can't get it because "We don't believe that it's the right demographic for expansion into that particular area at this time." That's what they actually told me, believe it or not -- and that's also their rationale for continuing to have crappy phone service -- the lines are so bad here, I can't get more than 14.4 on a 56k modem. Did I mention also that I live less than two miles from the State U. and the local "Technology Corridor"? Blarg.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
If this is true, this must be pretty fast. Does anyone know exactly what speeds this is capable of achieving?
And also, how does this exactly work? Anyone? Will a power outage affect it? What special equipment is need and how much?
Really interested in learning more. Someone please point me in the right direction.
does this remind anyone of the BOFH (bastard operator from hell, the the un-initated) who had a cable with a RJ-45 connector on one side and a wall plug on the other? That man is my god. I AM the PFY
This definately puts a new light on the power shortage in Silicon Valley and California
The MyTh - I am a figment of the Imagination - [Im Probably even not here]
Recently a hotly debated topic in my community has been the idea the city should get involved in providing telecommunications services. The proposed plan would mean stringing up miles of fiber all over the city to provide high-speed Internet access to businesses and residential customers. It's this type of technology that makes me so opposed to the idea. If the city could use existing low voltage power lines to transmit data the costs of starting up such a venture would be significantly reduced.
Still, what would be the life expectancy of this technology? It seems cable and DSL have such a lead in the market it would be hard for power companies to really become competitive. With the emergence of new wireless technologies that have the potential to out perform DSL and cable it seems power line data transmission won't last long on the open market.
Additionally, how would a power failure effect service? I have a UPS on my system at home so when the power goes out I still have access via modem or even cable service to my servers at work. With power failures that last more than 20 minutes I'm able to log in and shutdown everything safely before the UPS's at work fail. If I were unable to log on because a power failure also effected my Internet access I wouldn't be very pleased. It seems like electrical storms could cause significant interference as well - as all power lines are unshielded (as far as I know). I'm sure there must be some electronic component that keeps power surges from frying your "power line modem" out (another potential problem). So it seems to me there are still some bugs to work out. Only time will tell.
For now I'm going to stick with cable and wait for high-speed wireless to hit the street.
No need to root my box now, all the script kiddies will just overload my power strip and fry my computer.
And you gotta know there's no patch for that exploit.
what happens to the signal in my ups?
You know, that did lead me to thinking...
Will we start seeing UPS systems that are also Firewalls/Routers?
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
-
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I suppose a con is that anyone could just T-splice into your powerlines and listen in to your packets. But on the plus side, anyone foolish enough to splice into a 10,000 volt powerline probably won't be listening for very long...
:)
Hey, maybe this kind of technology will see the advent of Black ICE like we all used to read about in Gibson's books...
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
Assuming California is in a heat wave and the power reserve is small, then how will this high-speed Internet access supposed to work during a rolling black out? I assume both Internet access and electricity would go out. Double whammies. :(
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I believe the project is born dead. Let me explain why.
:-( having 56k with my friends; with DSL I cannot use the modem for anything except the Internet access. The same may be true for the electric networks, but not for Ethernet.
I believe the signal bandwidth as well as it's transmission distance corresponds to the group of 3-5 standard Soviet-era buildings, 80 apartments each. The single transformer serves this group - and also insulates the group from the 10-kV backbone network. It means that we either should place the routers on each transformer - or the capacitor bridges will passively route the data, overloading the network as a whole - or the groups will be insulated and still need a group router somewhere.Don't forget that all the equipment will be special (read: expensive due to limited production size).
Now let us consider the nearest competing technology - UTP Ethernet. You can easily buy routers, bridges, switches, cables, protectors and have no problems with mounting the cables between the buildings since there are usually NO roads between them; you can either throw the cable from roof to roof or use the existing phone tubes. You can use 802.11, leased lines or laser links as longlinks between networks. Such networks exist in post-Soviet territory and they work, mostly being supported by enthusiasts.
Moreover, now I take part in designing of time signals transmission system using the power lines, and I know that it's problematic to obtain the transmission speed comparable not even to Ethernet, but to V.32. The special chips I have access to have about 900 bits/sec. Anything giving the higher speeds will produce a lot of RFI, and it cannot be avoided.
Then, the second factor. Using the modem I can contact with any other modem; using the V.90 modem I have some troubles
Since the power line modem cannot be used as a traditional modem ( 3-5 buildings zone - not more) it will be promoted by the ISP's in the monopoly way only.
So I believe the project will fail leaving a lot of expensive equipment on consumers' hands - as it has already been with some DSL companies. You have been warned.
Well, I guess it is better than "I have a BRILLIANT plan to make lots of money offering high speed Internet access, something that people really want! The only trouble is, you have to next door to the phone company! Let's call it DSL and invest billions into it! We'll make a profit in no time! Everybody lives next to a switching station!"
What good would internet access be without power, dude?
El Karma: excelente(principalmente la suma de moderación hecha a los comentarios de los usuarios)
Polish company STOEN also started such tests in August. They will last till the end of the year.
:-/)
(Of course the only purpose of these tests is to show that their service won't be available in my area.
-jfedor
I spoke the Telecom people and they told me becouse they own all the lines in Germany that if someone want to offer flatrate they would have to pay telecom the fee for using that line. And don't forget that they are hurting for money now! Siemens is laying off 5,000 people (siemens runs T-DSL ATM backbone, not telekom) Thats why all the support numbers are toll.
Could you please send me the links of the ones you mentiond? address above.
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
Hmm... no links in the news? Dodgy, if you ask me...
:(
Germany:
Provider: RWE
- Power line internet access launched by Germany's RWE - Quote: "The power line technology will mean that RWE PowerNet can deliver data at a rate of two million bytes per second."
- Shocking Concept: Internet Over Electrical Lines
Sweden:
Provider: Sydkraft Bredbånd - provides up to 8mbit/s downstream.
- Sweden Using Electricity For High-Speed Connections
continue list at will. I just know it will take forever before I can get anything but forced AOL crap connections where I live in France
-Kraft
Live and let live
Last time I read about this technology (~2 years ago) they were claiming home speeds of up to an exobit(10^18) per second. According to this brochure this company is only offering up to 10 megabits(1^6)per second. What happened to the truely awesome power(no pun intended) behind these broadband lines?
There are two companies who have announced plans to offer internet over power lines, and only one has received a license and started a very limited offering in one city only (Essen). I think the link is www.rwe-powerline.de.
The service is quite limited. In order for a neighborhood to get access, they have to wait until the company wires up the local substation. There can be no transformers between the substation and the house. Once a neighborhood has access, a technician comes out and installs a box at the meter junction, and then connects the modem to an internal power socket. The powerline modems communicate with the box outside, which in turn communicates with the router at the substation, and everything after that is normal internet. There is no communication across most of the power system, the signals can't pass transformers or switching stations. The signals have an effective limit of 350 meters, which is much shorter than DSL or cable.
The 2Mbps limit is for an entire neighborhood, and is shared by all the other connections in the area. There is a cap at 250Mb per month, sometime later they will offer a 10Gb cap, but only to businesses and at a rate equal to leased line. The companies both are targeting high-density cities, and have no plans to offer this to any rural areas or small towns, because of the 350 meter limit on distance from substation to home.
For the trials last year, the modems had only a serial connection, and had to be "dialed" just like a regular analog modem, and the speed was limited to 115kbps. Their website claims they now have ethernet and USB connections as well. The last I saw, every customer gets a private 10.0.0.0 IP address, and the company doesn't allow servers of any kind.
The truly sad thing is, in Germany this really is competition and an improvement for the market.
the AC
[kann jemand in Essen post einen Kommentar über den Service?]
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
A bunch of smarties think they are oh so clever by pointing out that without power, internet access is kinda useless.
Hey dudes, some people have UPS power backup, others have propane genarators. That's not just homes. There are businesses in the area too. And it's not just inside out. Maybe others who still have power want to access a computer inside the blackout area.
Infuriate left and right
They don't get around the problem of high frequencies being attenuated by the pole transformers, they simply don't worry about it because they have their CuPlus units sitting up there too.
Deployment of this technology will be far slower than DSL or cable, simply because every neighbourhood (or fraction of a neighbourhood) requires a CuPlus unit in order for this to work. That's one CuPlus unit for every pole transformer!
In my area, I see a pole transformer service at most two dozen households. The deployment for this technology will be insanely long.
The other question I have which isn't answered is how the RuPlus or NtPlus units can be plugged into any outlet and work when the split-phase wiring in North America effectively isolates the two 120VAC circuits from each other? Your pole transformer usually takes a 1200-13kV line and neutral and then gives you a center-tapped, 240VAC output (3 wires) to your house. Do they have the equivalent of a hub and two modems to distribute the incoming (to your house) signal across both phases and take the possibly distinct return signals, figure them out and put them back on to the main communications bus?
Whatever happened to those guys who claimed to be using a maser to modulate the magnetic field, thereby defeating Maxwell's equations and getting high frequency data through the 60Hz transformers? I'd love to see a working demo.
In Europe, houses and businesses receive 240V electricity, as opposed to 120V in the U.S., Canada, and others. Due to the physics of alternating current, that means that European electric companies can make the lines between customers and immediately upstream transformers longer than they can be in the U.S. It also means that they need fewer transformers within a particular area. That translates into cheaper deployment of powerline Internet, since you'd have fewer transformers to which the company would need to run T-1 lines (or something).
For example: I've been to Switzerland a couple of times. When I was there, I never saw a transformer that served homes; they don't need that many, and they're really good at hiding them anyway. In the U.S., however, you see them everywhere, hanging off power poles, or as big honkin' green boxes on the ground. Typically, such transformers serve only four to six houses each; decent-sized businesses (e.g. grocery stores) get their own, really big box (to hold a two-phase or three-phase transformer). Would a T-1 to each and every transformer be cost-effective?
So, IMHO, it's workable in Europe, but much less so in the U.S.
- Chris
Utilizing magnetic schemata since
Will this screw up all my X-10 stuff?
Will I screw up their power modems?
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
You make a good point that there are businesses with local power generation, but the second point is less strong. If you have a system to which others want always-on access, you're going to want to use something other than this power-line access anyway, most likely. If I were running a business and thought to have a generator, I'd likely already have considered the possibility that a power outage (of any kind, not just intentional) could cause trouble, and would therefore want some form of 'Net access that's not sensitive to a blackout.
Virg
Whois for "powerline.com" returns names with e-mail addresses on "powertrust.com". Whois for "powertrust.com" returns some of the same names and addresses, with e-mail addresses on "powerline.com". So we can conclude that "powerline.com" and "powertrust.com" are under the same ownership. There's interlinked domain ownership with "powerfulnetworks.com"(an ISP), and "powerinternet.org". (Clearly, these guys like "power").
Most of these organizations are located at 1701 S. Mays St, #J-121, Round Rock, Texas. At the same address are Gino's Pizzaria (#B), Eyecare Vision Centers (#R) , and My Choice Liquors (#N). Aerial photography confirms this is a mall. The "J-121" probably indicates some kind of mail drop, although it's not a MailBoxes Etc. location.
Going to "powertrust.com", we see just a logo and the tag line "The possibilities beyond the power". The page description for that page reads:
So they have a full range of vaporware services.
PowerLine itself is at 11180 Sunrise Valley Drive, Reston, VA, which is an office building. "PowerTrust" is also at that location - listed as an oil and gas company.
Digging further, it gets worse. PowerTrust is in trouble for "slamming" natural gas services, switching customers to their service without authorization. They've "withdrawn" from the Washington DC area gas market, with the "encouragement" of the local regulatory authorities. It's not clear that they did any physical delivery of gas; it just seems to have been a remarketing thing.
A press release from PowerTrust indicates that PowerLine is a business unit of PowerTrust. It's supposedly a "joint venture with 'M@innet.net'", which provides the power line networking technology. Can't find "M@innet.net" in anything but PowerLine press releases, though.
So that's a brief rundown, and it doesn't look good.
This doesn't mean the technology is out of reach. There's a consortium for power-line networking: HomePlug. There's an evaluation kit available from Intellon. Includes source code for Linux drivers. Speed is around 8Mb/s now. They hope to get to 50Mb/s in a few years.
Lower speed systems are shipping. Easyplug, at 2Mb/s, is available now.
Like DSL, this is one of those things that just barely works because the transmission medium is so noisy, but can be made to work with very elaborate modulation techniques. Here's how HomePlug does it.