Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Trident Micro Update

Posted by michael on from the retrograde-advance dept.

grendelkhan writes: "According to Linux Today, Trident is denying that they are no longer supporting open source developers for XFree86." This message from Eich clarifies the events leading up to this. Looks like Trident chips will continue to be supported, one way or another.

81 comments

  1. Question about the post by rosewood · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Could someone please explain to me why the NIST was refered to as the not so standard standards people?

    Also, why did my original question above get this?:

    Lameness filter encountered.
    Your comment violated the postersubj compression filter. Comment aborted

    --
    The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
    1. Re:Question about the post by rosewood · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      and now my posts dont even go to the right news story again?

      --
      The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
  2. Relationship hasnt changed???? by mackermacker · · Score: 0

    ".....saying nothing has changed in terms of the company's relationship with open source projects."

    Except the fact that they will not be supported anymore...

  3. This is good... by KeyShark · · Score: 1

    ...otherwise linux on notebooks would suffer...

  4. More like maybe not. by AltGrendel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think the email really answers the question. It sounds to me kind of like it's still in negotiation.

    --
    The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination

    - Douglas Adams

  5. Open Source with NDA?!? by SID*C64 · · Score: 1

    I just don't understand how you can have OpenSource but be forced to sign an NDA for technical data. How are you supposed to legally distribute source code that contains information covered by an NDA? After reading the responses to the article it seems this is not over yet.

    1. Re:Open Source with NDA?!? by RedGuard · · Score: 1

      Because it's very difficult to work out the details of a hardware interface from the source
      code so (with this exception clause) it doesn't count as disclosure.

  6. What were you doing??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    What were you doing on an AOL message board??????

    This alone makes you suspect.

  7. Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Cylix · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well I went through the process of sending their customer relations department a nice letter.

    I calmly informed them if quality drivers for their products ceased to emerge in the marketplace that I would seek other alternatives.

    At the time I felt like an informed reader and now I feel like an ass.

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    1. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the NDA has still not changed. you still cant get a source disclosure NDA which was the main problem with the cyberblade XP.

    2. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by SID*C64 · · Score: 1

      Join the club... however, it's still being negotiated so I think every bit of support will help in the long run provided it is done in a professional manner.

    3. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Cyno · · Score: 1


      Me too. All because I read slashdot (and didn't have the time to research this Trident thing, but thought it was important all the same). I hope the slashdot writers take note of these comments. Or I might have to start limitting myself to their unverified propoganda. I remember back in the day when slashdot used to have good meaningful articles that didn't try to send thousands of geek emails after the man, everyday, but instead informed us of real news. At least there are a few other sites that still do this. Maybe slashdot will grow up. Probably not.

    4. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by mattdm · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure which day you're remembering, but it must have been in an alternate universe. Slashdot has always been this way.

    5. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by max+cohen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think this is a good lesson for everyone, reminding us of the importance of checking the facts or delving further into the issue when a story is posted on Slashdot before sounding off on it. However, don't feel too bad about what you said. The official reply from Trident didn't address the XF86 developer's request to sign an NDA without the "source code exception clause." Until that is addressed, I don't think the issue has been fully resolved.

    6. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by kinkie · · Score: 2

      Pray tell, Why?

      If there was a sufficient community response, they MIGHT decide that the OSS users group is wide enough to lift whatever restrictions they have in place.

      I sent them a mail too, and I'm absolutely convinced I did the Right Thing(tm).

      --
      /kinkie
    7. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by terrymah · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      As well you should as well as everyone else who heeded slashdot's call to bombard them with nasty emails without knowing all the details.

      Of course, the biggest ass here is slashdot. They don't seem to realize or accept the fact that because of their size and reach they have a responsibility to fact check their stories. SOMEONE should have called trident for a comment, and definately not advocated that we bombard them with emails right in the damn story. And not even so much as an appology in this "update".

      "No, of course getting all the facts in a story or reaching out for both sides of the story is out of the question. We're slashdot! We jump at every chance to whip up a fury in the name of open source! We love to make it look like and bitch about how our operating system is being oppressed, when in reality it's just commericially unviable!"

      What is wrong with you people? This is a huge site owned by a large and publicly traded company, so why is the attitude of the editors still akin to an immature high schooler? Grow up Slashdot.

    8. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Cyno · · Score: 1

      Heh, your probably right, but I'd like to think they were a good news source at one time. It seems like they just throw out flame-starting material a lot more than they used to, since the VA takeover. I wonder if it is to get more readers or posts. Their numbers seem to have dropped as well over the last 6 months.

    9. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Happy+Monkey · · Score: 1
      ...and now I feel like an ass.

      Don't. They haven't changed their policy, but the policy makes things very difficult for OSS drivers for the new chipset, which relies much more on the components that require the NDA.


      Now, if I'm misinterpreting things, then I feel like an ass.

      --
      __
      Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
    10. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'm not sure which day you're remembering, but it must have been in an alternate universe. Slashdot has always been this way.

      This comming from somebody with a user id over 200,000.

    11. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Josh · · Score: 1

      I sent a similar e-mail and I think it was the right thing to do. I simply informed them that I use Linux as my desktop at home and at work and if neither an open source or binary driver was available for XFree86 then I couldn't consider purchasing a product using that video adapter. I also mentioned that the XFree86 developers do a fine job for free if they can support a card.

    12. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by rknop · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Don't feel like an ass. If you politely and calmly worded it, it still applies.

      Trident may come out and say that they aren't refusing support to open-source software. But that's marketspeak if it is impossible for Open Source developers to get access to programming information without signing an NDA that prohibits source distribution. "We support open source software, but we won't give programming information to people who distribute source" is inherently contradictory.

      Believe their actions, not their words. So far, their actions are not favorable, if the reports of the XFree86 developer not being able to get information are correct. We'll see if they turn around. Your letter was almost certainly still appropriate.

      -Rob

    13. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Restil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which is the entire purpose behind writing a NICE letter instead of a nasty flaming one. At least when you write a well supported polite, yet negative letter and your source of information turns out to not be completely accurate, you're able to say "oops, sorry my bad" and back off gracefully instead of REALLY looking like an idiot.

      Its in Trident's best interests to have linux based drivers available, even if they don't want to support them in any way. They have a product to protect and I can understand why they don't want to post the specs publicly, but they realize that in time, given enough effort, someone will eventually reverse engineer their products. The point is, by the time that happens, those products will be obsolete and newer versions will be available. As long as the specs are available under an NDA, the drivers can still be released and the driver source, while maybe revealing more information than a binary driver would, still keeps hidden much of the internal workings of the device, until such time its no longer that important.

      However, if Trident decided to completely turn their back on open source developers and suddenly a related OS were to gain a significant hold on the market, they'd be forced to play catch-up, but as long as they have drivers available, even unsupported by the company, they're on an even playing field, with no harm done.

      -Restil

      --
      Play with my webcams and lights here
    14. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Graymalkin · · Score: 1

      I love the theory at the end. "If hell freezez over and a Linux virus installs itself on every PC in the world and makes people whiny open source zealots with no tolerance for anyone not serving their interests Trident will be fucked in the consumer market!" That's like waiting for Netscape to release a stable browser.

      --
      I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
    15. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by terrymah · · Score: 1

      Flamebait? Please. I know the moderators here moderate based on if they agree with the poster or not, but if you're going to mod me down mod it correctly as "Offtopic".

    16. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Screw Trident anyways. I though that they'd gone under long ago since they have absolutely no marketshare.

      They need to just die.

    17. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by Purificator · · Score: 1

      i, too, sent an email and i, too, don't feel stupid for doing so (heck, i even used capital letters and everything).

      my letter was largely about why hardware manufacturers should go to the rather minimal effort of helping open source developers, and i think it still applies: trident seems to have a problem with at least some aspect of publishing code derived from their documentation, and the letters we sent --i hope-- will help weight their opinion in favor of relaxing that restriction.

      --
      "Mister Potato-head --MISTER POTATO-HEAD! Backdoors are not secrets!" (War Games, 1983)
    18. Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass by mattdm · · Score: 1

      um, not that it matters too much, but cid != user #. look again -- the user id is under 2000. :)

  8. It doesn't appear to be over just yet by fobbman · · Score: 4, Informative

    From Egbert's linked email:


    "Alan Hourihane has tried to obtain documentation for the latest Trident chipsest (CyberBladeXP and CyberBladeXPm) without success. He offered to sign an NDA with 'source code exception clause' a clause which allowed distribution of unobfuscated source developed with the help of documentation otherwise covered by the NDA.


    Trident appearantly didn't accept a 'source code exception clause'."


    Just being the casual observer that I am, I would question if it is in fact settled. Trident has yet to provide the documentation requested by the XFree86 group in the manner in which it has been received prior to this chipset. All Trident has provided is some PR spin about their "policy" not changing. This is often times done by companies to try and do some damage control.


    Until they provide the documentation needed they still need to be pressured.


  9. Re:this is what happens- really now... by Svartalf · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Did you read the XFree86 mailing list item?

    Did you know what precipitated the "rumor"? Apparently Trident wouldn't allow the source code exception to the NDA- and XFree86 doesn't work that way (and unless they were paying me handsomely, I definitely wouldn't either...).

    If they won't allow open source as part of the deal, then it's not quite a rumor, now is it?

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  10. One of four things happened. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Large company makes poor and unethical decision; there is a large public backlash; large company goes "oh, shit", starts backpedaling and tries to pretend nothing ever happened so that their now-angry customers will be won back and walk away thinking "good, Trident did The Right Thing".
    2. Shoddy "journalism" internet sites take unsubstantiated (and possibly planted by enemies) rumors and blow them way out of proportion; Large company is libelled; thousands of half-interested slashdot readers walk away with inaccurate information (trident will not support OSS drivers) and make sure not to buy trident drivers in the future. Trident loses money.
    3. Miscommunication between different departments within a large company result in both the 1 and 2 above happening at once.
    4. We don't really know what's happening here, we're still working off nothing but the meaningless false noises in the Digital Media Echo Chamber, this article is no more correct than the last one, and we should all just sit down, shut the hell up, and let trident and xfree86 work this out.
  11. WELLS2K DON'T SELL YOUR STOCK YET!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please reconsider Mr. Wells2K, your billions of dollars of equity are vital to the survival of this once again open-source friendly company. Without your support they will cease to exist.

    Thank you.

  12. Blade XP by Proud+Geek · · Score: 1

    You mean now I can get a MicroSun Cyber Blade XP Workstation?

    Err, I think I misread the article. Never mind.

    --

    Even Slashdot wants to hide some things

  13. Re:Open Source with NDA- yes, it's possible... by Svartalf · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...just twisted.

    You can release the source- and in many situations, you can fix it, so long as the bugs aren't with the interactions with the device. In that case, you need to enter into an NDA with the company to get the data. So long as they're willing to allow people to be involved as they show interest, then there's little problem- otherwise you end up with the joke that NVidia pulled with the Utah-GLX driver support.

    It's doable, just nowhere near as useful as releasing everything to let anybody work on it.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  14. Getting someone else to ask by hrieke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've said this in the last posting of the story, but it was at the bottom so I don't know how many people saw it:
    We should have IBM, Micron, or who ever else uses these chips in their laptops to ask Trident to release the documentation that is needed to develop a driver for FreeX.
    It's harder to ignore IBM than it is a single developer.

    --
    III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIIIV IIVIIIIIIVIII...
  15. Not really clear... by chill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I read all of the above correctly...

    Trident's policy has been, and still is, to require an NDA. That NDA prohibits source code distribution of a driver based off information obtained under NDA. Apparantly, from the successful development of drivers for past Trident chipsets, this part wasn't enforced.

    Now, Trident seems to be enforcing that part -- by not providing information to XFree86 developers on the CyberBladeXP and CyberBladeXPm chipsets. The XFree86 developers wanted to amend the NDA to allow source distribution.

    Since there has been no change in the NDA, only in enforcement, Trident is claiming that they provide the same support as before. Technically, they do -- sign the NDA and provide binary-only drivers and they'll provide docs.

    So, if you support the idea of source code availability for video drivers, keep an eye on the graphics chipset used in your next potential laptop. If it is Trident, look elsewhere.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  16. Re:Open Source with NDA- yes, it's possible... by SID*C64 · · Score: 1

    You're right, and it's definitely good that it seems to be possible with many companies. I still think that any programmer with half a brain can figure out how a piece of hardware works from some decently commented source code. Not to mention the fact that this practice really isn't going to keep the information out of a competitor's hands anyway ;)

  17. NDA by SCHecklerX · · Score: 2

    From what I read, you are required to sign an NDA to get the specs.

    If you write a driver, and then publish the source to that driver, are you not 'disclosing' the stuff you said you wouldn't?

    Either accept the terms of the NDA, or don't. It's Trident's call whether they want to allow you to release how to write drivers to their hardware to the general public or not.

    1. Re:NDA by B1ood · · Score: 1
      It's Trident's call whether they want to allow you to release how to write drivers to their hardware to the general public or not.

      undeniably true. it is our call whether or not to buy a machine with trident hardware in it though. if you need open source drivers, and trident's policy restricts that, you simply don't buy trident.

      --
      Note to self: pasty-skinned programmers ought not stand in the Mojave desert for multiple hours. -- John Carmack
  18. Trident drivers suck under Windows by Jonathan+Blocksom · · Score: 1

    Trident drivers suck under Windows (at least for OpenGL), frankly the XFree86 people are doing a better job on their own anyways.

    --
    GollyGee Blocks -- 3D creativity software for kids.
  19. Who's the moron who called the post flamebait?!?! by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 2, Insightful


    The poster has given a dead on assessment of the current Trident situation. Trident will not give documentation to XFree86 under the conditions it has previously agreed to give the documentation. XFree86 cannot accept an NDA agreement that requires obfuscating source code, or receiving only a binary component for a feature supported by XFree86.

    Who cares that Trident SAYS they support the Linux community if they make it functionally impossible to produce code based on their "support"?

    If you want to have working Trident drivers for Linux, the Linux community will still have to apply its consumer pressure in order for XFree86 to be able to provide Trident drivers.

    --
    There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
  20. huoh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    well this sucks.. I already sent them a little e-mail saying how discusted i was with their little plan =/ Helps when I'm properly informed of whats going on! >=(

  21. Trident is lieing by Penguinoflight · · Score: 1

    Supporting Linux would be giving money, or developing the drivers themselves. They aren't even giving out the documentation. Very bad.

    --
    "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
    1 John 4:14
  22. The Gist by LWolenczak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The gist is that, the driver will only be able to be distribued in a binary form if they are required to sign the NDA. So, all the VP did was beat around the bush, and say that we will continue to support open source, but without saying it, he reaffirmed the position that you can get the docs, but you can't share the info, thus only a binary driver can be distributed.

  23. Re:Open Source with NDA- yes, it's possible... by Ded+Bob · · Score: 1

    otherwise you end up with the joke that NVidia pulled with the Utah-GLX driver support.

    What "joke"? I am curious.

  24. OT: Nice sig by glitch_ · · Score: 1

    I am thoughly confused...Yes I realize it is Pi. Why in gods good name did you decide to do that? =)

    1. Re:OT: Nice sig by orkysoft · · Score: 1

      It's probably because in a 'famous quote', someone once said:

      "Programming for X is like calculating pi in Roman numerals."

      ... which is exactly what he must've done to make that sig :-)

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
  25. Optional TVExpress Video Encoder by swinginSwingler · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I wonder if this has anything to do with the TVExpress Video Encoder that can comes as an optional (hardware?) addition to the chipset. According to this site:


    http://www.tridentmicro.com/videcomm/tridproduct s/ 3d_desktop/blade3d.htm


    The Encoder offers "MacroVision Version 7.01 Copy Protection support" If that's the case then most likely they can not have source code released that may allow someone to circumvent the protection scheme. If you know anything more about this please post.

  26. Ha! by vandan · · Score: 1

    I can see nVidia or ATI or Matrox wanting to keep their intellectual property / trade secrets / whatever to themselves, but Trident? Really? Trident?
    I'll keep that in mind whenever I buy cheap shit graphics cards for work; I'd never buy one for home either way...

    1. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see nVidia or ATI or Matrox wanting to keep their intellectual property

      There is little or no IP in 2D acceleration nowadays. The open-source XFree86 drivers provide full support for all reasonable 2D features of a number of Matrox and NVIDIA cards.

      The situation is different for 3D acceleration; even here, however, both Matrox and NVIDIA are reasonable enough to allow development of decent open-source 3D drivers.

    2. Re:Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NVIDIA only offers a free shim around a proprietary IA32-only driver.

  27. Re:Open Source with NDA- yes, it's possible... by Svartalf · · Score: 2

    It only sort-of worked, didn't have DMA support, and needed their documentation (which they weren't giving out) to fix things right. This is not the same driver that they're shipping right now, but was their "open source" driver they gave to us prior to it. People are slowly fixing it as I write this, but it's taking 10 or more times more effort to get things there.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  28. I Almost Returned My Notebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just bought an HP Athlon notebook which, if I am not mistaken, uses a Trident video chipset. After reading the previous news, I would have immediately returned it if it did not have the Athlon CPU.

  29. What's so special about that? by Svartalf · · Score: 2

    It's straight up MacroVision like you'd find on a video tape from MPAA's member companies. So what if it means it's never turned on? It's only supposed to be turned on by a DVD player anyhow to prevent it from getting in the way of other non DVD uses of the composite/SVHS signal. Since we, as the general Linux using public, can't get DVD players "officially", I can't see why they'd be making that an issue- never mind the fact that purchasing a MacroVision scrubber is currently legit and undoes it anyway.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    1. Re:What's so special about that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Supposedly there are 2 licenced Linux DVD decoders (both closed x86 binaries).

      Since the big gripe is about paying for a licence for decoding, and I have a Windows DVD decoder I've never used, I've never looked into getting the licenced version. After all, I've paid for the licence already so I'll use the 'unauthorized' versions -- VLC is awesome! -- and feel no obligation.

      Having said that, the same does not apply to buying a Windows program and expecting a free copy of the Linux version. That's just wrong -- warez people suck.

  30. *BSD is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    *BSD is dying

    Yet nother crippling bombshell hit th beleaguered *BSD community when last month IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of ll servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

    You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

    Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to another charnel house.

    All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

    *BSD is dying

  31. It's just damage control. by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    They did change theri stance. when a request was placed, just like the others for the earlier chipsets was placed, was denied, it's because the rules were changed.

    The letter from trident is just corperate doublspeak designed for damage control. Until they say "oops sorry, we sacked that guy that denied you access" and give up the documents under the NDA like they used to it is still a changed policy.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  32. Litte change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, they did't do such a good job earlier ether,
    the have FAILED to release any valid documentation
    on the Trident Cyberblade e4 (9540) to ether XFree or to XIG....

  33. Not over yet by fanatic · · Score: 2

    From the email:

    2. Alan Hourihane has tried to obtain documentation for the latest
    Trident chipsest (CyberBladeXP and CyberBladeXPm) without success.
    He offered to sign an NDA with a 'source code exception clause'
    a clause which allowed distribution of unobfuscated source
    developed with the help of documentation otherwise covered by the
    NDA.
    Trident appearantly didn't accept a 'source code exception clause'.

    We therefore assumed that Trident Microsystems has modified its policy
    of providing technical documentation.

    If Trident says you can't distribute unobfuscated source code based on NDA-covered infromation and XFree86 says they won't accept an NDA with these terms, the roadblock remains. Trident can say they support OSS all they want and that nothing has changed, but it still makes it impossible for XF86 to use the information.

    --
    "that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
  34. Re: XFree86 cannot work that way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently Trident wouldn't allow the source code exception to the NDA -- and XFree86 doesn't work that way

    Even if they wanted to, XFree86 couldn't possibly distribute binary-only drivers.

    XFree86 supports a dozen or so platforms (x86, Alpha, Sparc, Sparc64, PPC, MIPS, etc.). XFree86 supports every one of these platforms on up to half a dozen OS (Linux, *BSD, SVR4, Solaris, etc.). There is just no way a driver could be developed without supplying source code to testers on a bunch of those.

  35. Re:Who's the moron who called the post flamebait?! by snake_dad · · Score: 2

    don't expect an answer. The person who did this used his moderator points and therefore cannot post in this discussion. Sorry :)

    --
    karma capped .sig seeking available Slashdot poster for long-term relationship.