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Dot-commers Back to the Dorm
securitas writes: "This is an interesting story about how many dot-com workers and CEOs left school, went broke, and are now back to their dorm rooms, studies, and keggers, having been through the modern equivalent of the Holland's tulip mania." Free reg. req. Bleah.
Damn.
::Colz Grigor
I returned to school at the peak of the market since I could finally afford to pay for that fifth, six, and seventh year.
seeing hot girls again , instead of your greasy cubicle mates?
keggers instead of the watercooler?
sounds pretty good when you aren't making 6 figures and your stock options are worth less than your used college textbook.
A lot of my friends who went to dot-coms and e-business pipe dreams are now going back to school for more. I guess you just try to do the last thing that made you happy. For a lot of us who were beaten in the dot com bust that means school. At least we'll have plenty of doctors and lawyers who can code too.
To get to a page where you have to fill out an annoying registration form before you can read the story, just replace "archive" with "www". Here's an example.
(I guess i'll call this "karma anti-whoring")
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Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
Whenever booms like these arise, it's a great opportunity for students to cast down the shackles of academia and strike it out on their own. For years, it was entirely possible for young people to forgo college careers altogether and give of themselves fully in the high-tech industry.
But now that it's over and they're coming back to academia, the viscious cycle begins anew. These students, once they graduate, will have both classroom experience and real-world experience, and it'll simply raise the bar for everyone else. The choice for students arrived from outside the dotcom market will be between either taking time off and taking significant internships during their student years or simply go for more education (most will choose the latter). It'll be an upward spiral of higher education begetting better qualified workers begetting a need for higher education.
That's why it's critical, now more than ever, that we abolish universal education. Darwinian sociology tells us that the best will lead no matter what their headstart, so we should do away with unnecessary artificial government intervention in the education markets. Starting from a young age, children should be given strong incentives to go into factory work or indentured servitude, thereby setting a sufficient hurdle that only the truly motivated will enter primary and higher education.
The dotcom boom and bust was an important economic moment in history, but let's not let ourselves lose track of the bigger picture. Education is, one of the most important determining factors in people's quality of life, but we must not allow ourselves to overvalue its function or be irresponsible in its delivery.
There will always be a place for young people to go instead of university. The sooner we pull out of this economic slump, the better for these people.
But, I managed some really cool stuff in the last several months - I started Oomind.com which is a pretty cool educational concept. The idea is to "open" education: anyone can be a learner and an educator and an accreditor using a sophisticated (some might say complicated) moderation system.
So if any of you out there are thinking about education instead of work, please check out oomind.com. It is set up so that you might even make a little money for your contributions to the system. Check out the following links for more info:
The Philosophy of Oomind
Introduction to Oomind
Thanks for taking the time to read my little blatant self-promotion. If anyone has suggestions about the Oomind system, I would love to hear them.
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
It's sad, but I've seen a lot of ex-dotcommers looking for jobs recently.
The good ones just sit down and show their skills. We talk about a real job versus returning to school, etc.
The bad ones explain that they were a CEO/CTO, whatever, and want an equivalent job at our "real" company. We try to keep to a straight face while we explain that, if they are hired, they will have the title of "ultra-junior hire," and will be reporting to a person that left school a year or two before them (but who actually put the effort into learning about a real business.)
The real entrepeneurs aren't returning to school... they're getting decent jobs with good advancement possibilites right now. It's the poseurs that took a flier on cheap VC capital who are slinking back to an education on their parents' money.
We have to turn people fresh from college away from our open posititions at work. They dont have any pratical experience in troubleshooting, teamwork, and physical experience with tcp/ip, unix, networking, networked applications, etc. We have hired alot of dot.com'rs, they have more experience than people with BA in computer science. Some people even started at ISP's as teenagers and worked thier way up to being an engineer. Only recently has colleges started giving courses that apply to the real world.
On the subject of no jobs for dot.com peeps, we have 7 openings in my group (growth), and almost 30 for our department. We cant even find the right people to fill the jobs, it seems hard to find any unix/dba/network specialist or someone with a little experience who would pick it up. We hired one person who started 2 ISP's from scratch and sold them off before the boom, a very rare find. The local head hunters run out of people with any marketable skills quickly.
This is in Seattle Washington, so people in BFE like Spokane Washington would still be out of work.
So all this isn't about dot-com CEOs going back to school. It's about the uneducated going back to get an education.
Too bad not everybody who comes out of school is well educated. In fact, I'd dare say more than half aren't. School isn't about education, and you've been ass-over-minded if you think otherwise. It's a business. A very profitable business, unlike the Dot-Coms. In fact, I'm not predisposed to the idea that the dot-com failures weren't some elaborate conspiracy to make school look even more important than people already think it actually is.
I'm in college. I'm a double major even. The more time I spend in college the more full of shit I find it actually ends up being. I've taught myself way more than most professors, and the few professors who HAVE taught me something preach that the system is full of shit.
I know what you're going to say, "Your school sucks, then." Probably. But I'm willing to bet yours does too. I'm quite sure they want your money and just like any other monopoly they will hunt down and destroy any system of teaching which undermines their stronghold on the market. You are a head of cabbage to them. A monthly income. A product being tested for loyalty to be sold off in the end to companies that want lapdogs and throw-rugs.
Dot-Coms failed for a large number of reasons, but any education that the tech-workers may have lacked was quite probably not a major contributing factor. I know of a few nice sized tech companies that doesn't have very many people with degrees simply because they want free thinkers who are willing to solve problems, not college grads with elitist attitudes. (Yes, I'm saying that most college grads have elitist attitudes. It's true, and deep down you know I'm right. There are exceptions of course, which is why I say most not all, but...) These companies have some bright schooled kids, there, too, to be sure. But most of the people who work for these companies are either still in college or they never started, and not only do they make good money but they have a stable jobs at companies that aren't dot-bombing.
I think everyone needs to ask themselves just a few simple quesitons...
1. Do I value a degree because I think I'm worthless without one?
2. Does my company value a degree as a test of devotion, or out of a requirement for a "well educated" background.
3. Am I happy working for someone else anyway?
...
I'm getting a degree for only one reason. I have a good job that's paying for it entirely. I realize not everyone is so lucky.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
I agree with your point, but when these people were still hot shit, the media- especially, of course, the campus media- couldn't wait to get down on their knees in front of these guys. They had a launching party for their incubator at a nightclub. They were on cellphones all the time. They were quoted as saying that people like me were wasting their time with student jobs.
This was the attitude then, as published by an obnoxious grad student in our student paper:
All I can say is, "Eat me." Most of these people are back among us mere mortals, often after burning through massive amounts of cash. Meanwhile, I've learned four programming languages, gotten my name on scientific articles, and been promoted to positions that at least pay enough to keep the fiendish coffe habit going. I haven't missed any semesters, either.
These guys were full of crap up to their ears, and the only people who realized this were the tech people like me who didn't see the value in sabotaging our educations to buy Aerons and Sun servers. All most of these people had was flair, connections, and Dreamweaver 4, and I couldn't be more delighted to see them get burned.
[ not posting my name, thank you, but if you go to the same school you'll know where I'm from ]
PS. Want a dorm-room dotcom that works? Create an e-commerce site to sell weed to fellow undergrads. Can't fail.
You are naturally speaking from what you want as employee material in the post you are seeking to fill. If you want someone that can maintain a Unix/Win box, knows the main driver conflicts, and doesn't mind spending a lot of time under a desk then a BSc CompSci isn't going to be as useful. However if you want a programmer, or db guru, then it's pretty essential. The boom sucked many people into the industry that call themselves 'programmers' who don't know basic algorithms (yes, I've seen bubble-sort used in live code). I'm currently rewriting the backend for a retailer, cutting down their stock update time from over 12 hours to just over 5 minutes. All it took was some database knowledge and some simple routines (eg binary searches and trees). Most of it 1st year CompSci stuff. It is stuff however that needs to be *taught*. Of all the dot-commers that are going back to school, or unemployed, I bet virtually none of them are programmers with BSc in CompSci.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Let me further preface this comment by saying that I do realize the overinflated tech sector actually collapsed (duh), that I understand that jobs are pretty hard to come by at the moment, and that I'm fairly afraid of what would happen if I lost mine somehow.
But (here comes the comment) I had the same fear back before the collapse. I came in at the tail end of the boom, and I was employed at what everyone around me considered an absurdly low wage (and which, really, was pretty low). I took the job because I believed the work was worthwhile and something I could be proud to have participated in (it was, it is). But despite my relatively low wages, I managed to save nearly half of what I made, simply by living within my means. I simply wasn't comfortable with debt or with living on the edge of my bank account.
Sure enough, I lost that job, through no fault of my own. When it happened, I had enough money to live for just under half a year, but I was still scared sick, because there wasn't more coming.
Didn't take long, fortunately, for me to find a new job. I now make twice as much as I was making before... and I'm saving money at about two and a half times the rate, because I haven't increased my expenses much over what they had been (I lost two roommates, so the rent tripled). It will probably be years before I do, and you can be sure I'll have at least one significant raise under my belt beforehand.
I guess my point is that I don't understand how people can suddenly find themselves making twice what they should be making (often more) and respond by spending it all. Think about how much money some of those people could have in the bank, right now... And it's not for the sake of the money itself, it's the security and peace of mind that having something to fall back on -- or someday build a future on -- gives you. I'd rather have that than a Porsche any day.
You just threw away the resume of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Wozniac, Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, etc...
Great move asshole. Suits and degrees don't give you skills.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Exactly. There is a mix to be had, certainly the poindexter depart of defense employee from 1960 isn't precluded from being the next hero, but the next is more than likely not to be this type of human.
.bust in the middle of Si-Valley. In fact, when I mentioned once I had Novell experience, an OS which I like but not nearly as much as the *nix varietals, he said that that was passé - and that Active Ditectory was the new thing. I remember getting my MCSE certification a long time ago so I could tell the PHBs with certainty that running an "All Microsoft Shop" was a -bad- idea. I also remember reading that while Novell has been in better shape, there are a significant number of people going from ADS to NDS (good decision). The "recruiters" knew a buzzword, sure they heard of XML, but they don't know anything about XML, have never seen XML code, and they don't know why the people who want XML people want and XML person, etc.
Jobs should be based on merit, not quotas.
You work for the group of who are in essence communist-socialist. The potential to generate revenue is first and foremost; at best a tertiary concern could be the ability of that individual to conform to the pointy headed boss' work schedule.
My former IT boss/director was a lamer and inept as his job; but because he was punctual, wore a suit, fit the mold and talked the talk. He just couldn't walk the walk to save his ass. I turned down an offer for his jobs for something in California that paid $20,000 more than his job. Last I heard he was still dressed up in his little suit looking for a job.
I can go either way, California style or NYC Stock market style. Shorts or suit. I want a job to pay the bills. But to not look at me because I don't feel like dressing up for your (recruiter) lame-ass self is real swift. I have always gotten my own jobs, recruiters usually turn up shit jobs. All the recruiters I have ever talked to don't have a f-ing clue what I do for my job - and they clearly suck and finding me jobs because I managed to find myself one here during the
Most of the recruiters called me back a few times, but they failed to turn up any real leads. I feel bad for the guys washing the floors in the mailroom when they could have probably found something better without a recruiter.
I'll stick to work that I cultivate myself. Sure, I'll give bonehead recruiters a chance, but you guys suck at it (always seem to be well groomed, kempt, ex-jock losers who fail to realize taxi-drivers turn a better dime than they do), and you don't make the loot we make because your work is secondary to this business.
Just like the travel agent, your job is contingent on someone actually going out and doing something. When you contribute nothing to the advancement of humanity, you should serve the ones you do without being mealy mouthed cocky pricks.
Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
Come now, I'm all for experience, but this is "experience" hardly that.
Firstly, there is a world of difference between the "get-rich-quick" work ethic and that of someone fighting for a real startup--where they actually have to make things work.
Secondly, very few DotComemrs took real risk. Sure, many watched their stock options become worthless, but it was virtual money from the get go. It's not as if most of those kids could have gone to other jobs paying equivalent amounts of "real" money.
Thirdly, relatively few really were sufficiently high in management level positions to take any real responsibility for what happened. Many of those who were in "management" still do not; their attitude is that they had no responsibility for their investors money--it stinks.
Fourthly, besides the fact that they it was not their own money, by and large, they were living in such an artificial and over-inflated environment that few of them can claim to have any real business experience, other than perhaps to be a little more skeptical of the next fad.
Lastly, why shouldn't they hold their heads high? You think the DotCommers have it any worse than previous generations of college aged kids that were applying for jobs during full blow recessions? I have far more respect for the earlier generations there, they at least can claim to have seen real struggle.
What is Aimster?
"Aimster allows you to Find New Buddies and Share With Buddies."
Now there's a mission statement worth leaving a great school like RPI to pursue. Still, if you hadn't done it, you would have missed the experience. It would be like missing out on Woodstock. It may have been muddy and crowded and inconvenient, and there was bad purple acid and stuff, but those who went could brag about it for the rest of their lives. Have fun in school and pay attention in economics class.
Beware of enterprises that require new software - Didn't Benjamin Franklin say that?
You just threw away the resume of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Wozniac, Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, etc...
Right. But he's looking for EMPLOYEES, not wizards or entrepreneurs. These call for very different skills sets and personalities.
If I owned a company, and was looking for employees, the last thing I would want is a Bill Gates or a Steve Jobs.
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The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.