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U.S. Attack -- More Updates
I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six
stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and
reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism
units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in
into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston
flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people
first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal
buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down;
major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2
international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here.
More as we
know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.
FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.
Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.
Nostradamus's predictions have been constantly discredited, being not only applicable to all sorts of events in past 500 years, but also originally written in an obscure version of french that was regularly mistranslated.
Please, put your doomsayer sandwichboards down and stop ringing the bells.
(Not you Diomedes, you talk sense)
Smid
This is certainly one of the worst things I have ever witnessed, and that includes being in London during IRA bombings.
I just have been thinking: who on Earth is going to take responsibility for this?? As soon as one has spoken up, yes, he will be a flat spot on the wall.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
"I fear all we have done is to wake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve."
Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
After attack on Pearl Harbor
Quoted from http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/generation/ph.htm
First plane: American Airlines, Flight 11, Boston=>LA, 92 on board.
Second: UA, 175, Boston=>LA, ?.
Third (Pentagon): AA, 77, Dulles=>LA, 64.
Four: UA, 93, Newark=>SF, ?.
Five: UA, Camp David.
Six: (PA crash),
Seven: (CO crash?), UA?, 175, =>LA?
Many planes still in the air, none currently threatened.
Crash Five may be a rumour. I keep seeing it scroll by on the TV, but I've read that it's been denied.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this.
Abuses of those tools should be another discussion entirely -- an important discussion, but not a paranoid paralyzing one.
I'm usually fairly detached during times like this, but by myself, watching the coverage, and imagining the enormity of the loss of life, mental health, peace, property, and productivity -- I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one. To those of you who felt likewise, don't forget that feeling. When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" - Ghandi
Are more dead people the answer here? Take a minute to think before screaming for vengence.
Counter attacking is not a good solution, for several reasons. 1) We do not know who to blame, and blind lynching leads to many problems, 2) even if we did know who to blame, counter attacking stands a good chance of angering others, and perpetuating the cycle, 3) even if we knew which nation to attack, and could get away with it, it is still wrong to kill people for the actions of others--we would be no better than the terrorists.
On the other hand, doing nothing is likewise unacceptable. It will send the message that these actions can be taken with impunity, and likely lead to further assaults. Failing to stand up for yourself is the best way to become a victim.
So, logically, we need to do something that is not a counter attack.
This is where brains come in. What can we do that will reduce or eliminate this kind of threat but isn't a blind reprisal? That is the question we should be turning our brains to.
-- MarkusQ
First of all, I hope and pray for the safety of all involved, and commend the rescue workers who are putting their lives on the line to save others. These people are heroes in the truest sense, and deserve our undying admiration and respect.
Watching the news, all of the stations, particularly the military correspondents (Gen. Schwarzkopf included) talked about the complete failure of our intelligence community to provide us with any warning about this attack. Reporters asking "how could such a thing have happened with no warning," "haven't we infiltrated these groups," "how can you maintain secrecy on something this widespread," etc.
In a couple of weeks, I'm going to look like a prophet for this one. I predict that somebody will mention data security, including e-mail encryption. Whether correctly or not, somebody will propose it, and encryption, already a hot topic in National Security circles, will gain focus.
I predict that within a month, Congress will have drafted, and probably passed, a National Security Act to address the threat of terrorism. In that act, I fully expect to see severe restrictions on the use of secure data systems, including encryption of any form (e-mail, PGP file encryption/encrypted file systems, even SSH and SSL), anonymity (anonymous bulletin boards, including such things as Slashdot), and relaxation of wiretapping laws. E-mail will be required to be send in plaintext, Carnivore will be restored to active duty, and put on more servers with more keywords and more aggressive monitoring. Cell phones, already ruled to be not private, will be actively monitored by the government, as will landline phones--remember, cordless phones (you know you all have them) emit RF too, and the few that have scrambling systems are easily compromised.
Also expect to see civil liberties severely curtailed, at least for a while. Meeting with friends at odd hours (odd to the rest of the world, normal to geeks)? Suspicious. Phone calls to friends in other countries, or of other nationailities (particularly Middle Eastern)? Suspicious. Use of encryption/security? Suspicious squared--after all, what do you have to hide?
My big prediction, though, is that the American Sheeple will hail this as a Good Thing, and support it wholeheartedly. The Sheeple will automatically say that anything that improves security must be a Good Idea, and will fall into line without even considering the ramifications.
Mark my words, my friends: today has been one small step for terrorism, but one giant leap for the police state.
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
I'm watching CBC television, The National. The desk reporter is superlative, and I'll be writing CBC to give accolades.
Now that there's less action on the ground, we're getting all the "experts" in as talking heads.
And the unfortunate thing is that some of them are instigating racial hatred. Well, cultural hatred, at any rate.
The same thing is beginning to happen on Slashdot: wingnuts wanting to obliterate Palestian, and even some who want to nuke the entire mid-East.
GET A CLUE!
The US can't just walk in and kill every damn Muslim and Arab. That'd be a worse atrocity than the attack on the WTC -- and the retaliation would make today's events look like a trip to Disneyland.
There must be retaliation...but it must be rational!
Use your cluesticks with impunity. Contact your news stations and let them know that they're being destructive, not constructive; join the message boards and preach cautious, considered reactions; and remain calm.
[Please also note that more people die every day or two in traffic accidents, than were killed in the attack. It's a tragedy, but not much worse than the tragedy we live with every day... it's just that we don't expect terrorist attacks.]
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
If you are in NYC and looking to donate blood, I would consider physically going to the site rather than using the phone. I am not in the city; those there should decide for themselves whether the transportation system or the phone lines are clogged up worse.
Also, if you are in the NYC area, consider seeing if these Red Cross chapters or anyone providing relief efforts to see if they need unskilled volunteers--setting up tents, manning the food lines, etc. See your local place of worship, regardless of your religious persuasions--many of them may be providing relief efforts.
--The basis of all love is respect
There's been a lot of posts talking about how we need to strike back, and hard. I hope everyone here realizes that's what the terrorists want.
Terrorism is not about strategy or tacticts, these acts were not battles in a war. they served no strategic or tactical purpose, the group that perpetrated these acts is not going to move in and conquer, or anything like that. The purpose of terrorism is to generate fear and political tension.
All this commotion the politicians are making is exactly what the terrorists wanted. They have succeeded in the first steps of disrupting American lifestyle. By making huge reactions we're fulfilling the terrorists goals.
What we need to do is first keep calm and tend to our victims. Second we need to take a few days (at least) to cool off and evaluate ways we can improve security and information access (why was it so hard to figure out which planes crashed? can't we keep track of where a plane is in the air?). Finally, and most difficult, we need to figure how to go back about our lives. We need to show that terrorism is an impotent tool.
The ultimate plays for Madden 2006
Religion is NOT the cause of this crime. The criminals that did this have TWISTED thier religion to pretend that this is a Holy War.
Islam, at it's heart, is about peace. The killing of innocents is abhorent to Allah (God).
It could be Muslims. It could be Christians. It could be Athiests, (White|Black|Yellow|Red|Purple) supremacists, anarchists, fascists, disgruntled pilots, almost anybody. I am not blaming any of the above groups; I am demonstrating that we just don't know.
Here's what we do know. This was a group of people (at least four, one for each aircraft) rather than one person. Those who carried out the plan (rather than any possible planners we don't see yet) were willing to die for this. They were trained for this mission (highjacking an aircraft is not an easy job today, and the fact that we have heard of no failed hijacking attempts today implies that all attempts were successful; we didn't have four successes in sixteen attempts or whatever). This implies premeditation and weeks of planning. Note that this also implies that the act was not a Columbine-type killing. The rash of Columbine events in the past few years show a lot of premeditation, but not the level of skill needed to hijack an aircraft.
Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.
Let's not try to pin this on somebody until we get some more facts.
--The basis of all love is respect
I personally am mildly disgusted by some of the mainstream media coverage I've seen of the aftermath. I really hate when obnoxious camera crews stick cameras in the faces of obviously traumatized survivors and ask inane questions like 'were you scared?', 'did you see anyone die?', or 'does this make you angry?'
Sheesh, I wish the media would a) let these people have some dignity, and b) quit asking so many stupid Sally Jessy-esque questions.
[disclaimer: I'm Scots, posting from Scotland]
What's scary about this is that the perpetrators did not need access to a 'greater array of weaponry'. While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence, the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for. Who needs a suitcase bomb, when you've got domestic aircraft?
This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.
So what can a government do in response to this? It's easy (and depressing) to predict what Dubya will do - just what so many here are urging him to do. And it's easy to see exactly why it will be counter productive. If the US Government lauches its predictable 'massive strike' against the assumed perpetrators, there will inevitably be enough 'colateral damage' to radicalise a whole new population of people who don't yet hate the US that much. And they'll get together and launch more strikes like todays, because (if you are sufficiently organised, disciplined, ruthless and security conscious) strikes like todays are cheap to mount out of all proportion to the damage they cause.
The US cannot run. It cannot hide. It cannot - ever - protect itself against this sort of thing. It has thousands of miles of coastline, thousands of miles of borders, which it can never effectively monitor. Today shows that wannabe terrorists don't have to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.
For the US as for the rest of the democracies of the world, the only solution to this problem is not to be hated that much. And the only way to not be hated that much is to not act unreasonably. Which means - among other things - that the response to today's event must be strictly limited to individuals who are provably in the direct chain of command to today's event - and not thousands of civilians who just happen to live in the same town.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
> This is an act of war against the United States.
No, it's not. It's an act of terrorism. There's an enormous difference, a lesson that Vietnam taught us, and that you've apparently forgotten.
> Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers.
This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.
> If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth,
> and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then
> they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with
> appropriately.
What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are? What would be an appropriate response to that? Invasion? Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan? Do you really think that this incident warrants a war against Iran and Iraq? How about Russia? How about China? Both world wars started over annexations of territory, and in both wars nations with no initial stake were eventually pulled in (like the U.S. in WWI, which we entered because of our alliance with Britain and France). The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.
> There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions
> against the United States will be met with such an incredible and
> unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane,
> or otherwise would even conceive of the idea.
Get your temper back in check and read that again. Sane people don't use terrorism, and fanaticals and the insane don't care about consequences. So, our "horrific response" will only serve to turn the collateral damage victims into more enemies.
> It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen
> using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive
> and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die
> along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.
It is almost astonishing that your comment reflects very closely the words used by Timothy McVeigh in describing his destruction of the Murrah building. But then, it's not that astonishing after all, in that you're advocating the same sort of terrorism as he was ("if the (fill-in-the-blank) government is going to protect people who commit crimes against the (fill-in-the-blank) people, then I'm justified in killing them and anyone else who happens to get in the way, and I'll call them "unfortunate casualties of war" because it soothes my sense of justice and makes my position less abhorrent").
Until you (and many more like you) realize that fighting terrorism isn't just about brute force, we as a nation are destined to suffer from more of these attacks. Fighting terrorism is a high art form, and it can be done with a high degree of success, but it's never perfect, and it's never about simple military might. Read more about counter-terrorism, and you'll be surprised (and educated) by what you find.
Virg
To promise retaliation is not hubris, it's apporpriate.
no, its childish and immature - to retaliate, to lash out wildly is idiotic.
You make a very good point. Talk to someone Islamic. I am not Islamic, but a rather identify with the type of 'Reformed' Christianity espoused as websites like Antithesis.com and the Credenda Agenda.
That said, I know enough to know that it is ONLY the most radical and a minority of Islamics who preach violence. Most, if not all, condemn such CSCB terrorist acts. It would be victory for the chicken-shit-coward-bastard (CSCB)-terrorists if they could take these sad events and make us hate our Islamic neihbor.
While we may disagree about God and country, I would prefer to debate our differences over some cold beer and hummus, as opposed to hot lead and fire.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Okay, So it's probably safe to assume that a good amount of people in the WTC towers were wealthy investment banker-ish types. Many of these guys were probably the only source of income their families had (since they would probably make enough that their wives didn't have to work). They probably had 1 million+ dollar houses mortgaged, nice cars, etc. So it would probably be safe to assume that their life insurance policies were for several million dollars. Of course, we can't discount that there were also plenty of secretaries/sys admins/janitorial staff/deli proprietors etc. in thee towers as well. Most of them also probably had life insurance policies.
And of course we have the World Trade Center towers themselves, who are probably insured for billions.
Well, watching CNN and various other news channels, I keep seeing that many politicians and journalists are calling this "an act of war"
Folks, what is the one thing that almost no life or property insurance policies cover? You guessed it: WAR!
We're going to have possibly tens of thousands of families who depended upon a primary wage-earner to survive. These families could potentially be told by insurance companies, "Sorry, but we don't have to provide coverage for your loved ones. It was war...".
Additionally, we will have whatever group of investors counts on rental income from the WTC go completely to pot, because their property insurance on the buildings will echo the same sentiment.
As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an act of war, it's an act of terrorism. The "war" clause in insurance policies is there as a last resort... it's meant to protect the insurance companies if half the major cities in the US get nuked to the ground. But I have no doubt that many of these companies will try to use this clause to their advantage.
I'm going to be sending a letter to my Senators and Representatives in a few days (obviously they have more important things on their minds right now) urging them to pass a temporary law that prevents insurance companies from pulling these sorts of sh> igans. I urge everyone else to do the same.
This is not state-based terrorism. This is a small group of fanatics. Your stupid, stupid tactic would make it a war.
Terrorism is cyclical, not a three step process. You are attacked, you get angry, you retaliate. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
Look at Ireland, the Middle East, etc. Do you want our grandchildren to still be fighting the same damn "war"?
We wait. We continue to work. We find the black boxes, the voice recorders, we investigate. Those that did it are on the run. They are in hiding, and think we don't know where they are. Let they sweat a little. When we have the evidence, when the world knows, then we act. Maybe not even violently - put them in front of the same court as Millosevich, make them stand trial.
Above all, we show that we are rational humans, and not dogs that bite because we were bit.
Perhaps the fire-supression system was inadequate in many respects. That said, how can you seriously blame the scale of this catastrophe on the fire-supression system? Who in their right mind would equip an office building with a fire-suppression system that could extinguish a fire caused by enough jet fuel to take a 767 across the continent?! I think that even if it were up to a higher standard, it would have been absurd for the designing engineers to say, "hey, let's put in a sprinkler system that could extinguish a fire caused by a 767 slamming into the building with a near-full load of fuel!"
--Ford Prefect
This is the worst attack on America. Ever. The destruction at Pearl Harbor can only begin to compare with the carnage that has taken place in America today. September 11, 2001 is a day that will live on in infamy. It is an unprovoked attack on American soil.
For those who don't seek vengeance, I can only say that you are likely not living in America. There will be a reckoning. Whoever did this, and it's looking like Bin Ladin, will be found an eradicated. Whoever is harboring them will be eradicated. Whoever defends them will be eradicated. War is now inevitable.
Good may eventually come of it, as good did eventually come from Pearl Harbor and WWII. But for the time being, we will be mobilizing, preparing for war. We were shocked. Now we are angry.
And anyone who says that we're going to war because "Bush is crzy enough to start one" as I've heard people say (though haven't looked closely on the forum here) is dead wrong. We will be going because it's the right thing to do. We need, firstly, to show the world that we will not be shaken by this, and to show the world what happens when you fsck with the USA. Any potential president, Bush, Gore, Nader, Bud Brown, Clinton, anyone would be looking for a perpetrator right now with the intent to kill. We can see this.
From a purely political standpoint, the nation is calling for vengeance. Any preisdent who sought re-election for himself or anyone in his party would commit political suicide otherwise.
This is edited slightly for content, mostly for length:
"The United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. The United States was at Peace with the world. We have been looking towards the maintenacne of world peace. This attack was deliberately planned days or even weeks ago. The attack on our cities has caused damage to civilians and economic centers. Very many America lives have been lost.
The facts, so far, today speak for themselves. The American people have already formed their opinions, and well undertstand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation. The commander in chief has directed our forces in our defense. Always, will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.
No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the America people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. We will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but we will make certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us again. We will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.
This was an unprovoked and dastardly attack on the united states."
Franklin D. Roosevelt, December 8, 1941
December 7, 1941. A day that has lived on in infamy. September 11, 2001 will live on in infamy now as well.
Never again. Never.