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U.S. Attack -- More Updates
I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six
stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and
reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism
units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in
into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston
flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people
first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal
buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down;
major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2
international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here.
More as we
know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.
"No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win though to absolute victory.... ....with confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us god."
- President Franklin D Roosevelt
December 8th, 1941
Speaking to the American people after the attack on Pearl Harbor
I'm sorry, but that's way too vague to make any sense at all. How could anyone call DC or New York "the City of God" - I'm sick of all these new-age hippie bastards who wet their pants every time something happens that can be contorted to almost fit one of Nostradamus' ridiculous "prophecies". There are serious events in motion without letting stupid superstitions get in the way.
"To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
BBC reported that a US statesman as saying this is the second pearl harbour
It is not
think
how many bombs have gone off in london how many lives have been lost in west bank
how many people have died because of veiws of a few
dont go assumeing that this wont happen again and again
the world you live in is full of hate dont add to it
regards
john jones
I am from Newfoundland Canada, and our airports are the destination for many re-routed flights.
Goose-Bay Labrador is expected to DOUBLE its population because it is a small city with a very large airport.
As for St. John's (where I am) we have gotten at least a dozen planes and we are expecting more. I'm considering going to the airport to volunteer for any help I can.
-underdog
Terrorists hit airlines.... this is the first time that an airline has been used to destroy a target- it literally is out of the Clancy Novel in which an airliner crashed into a joint seat of congress (THIS IS A BOOK!).
/. - it was the only news source we had at work until the CNN and ABC servers got back up.
As for everyone screaming for peace- shut up. The US has had a pathetic lax policy on terrorism. I feel we should move to a new "If you claim responsibility, you are dead. If you are planning it, you are dead. If you mastermind or participate, you are dead." policy- Eventually they'll run out of terrorists.
picture links
http://johnhaller.com/jh/terrorist/
Thank god for
Right so. Especially as noone knows who _is_ responsible for this terrible thing.
Unfortunately it is not always so clear cut. Peace with one enemy could mean war with another. What good would it do to appease one attacker only to find out you've pissed off another. The only way to avoid such a situation is to prove that you won't take it lying down. It is most likely going to be bad... but in reality what other course of action is there? Even if peace with one enemy doesn't anger another, I bet there are a lot of pissed off people who will learn they can get what they want by blowing up buildings. What good will that lead to? It's a bad situation no matter how you look at it.
% rm *
rm:
% ls
%
damn
Fox News just reported that smoke from New York City is visible from the ISS (or Alpha, whatever you call it).
Don't rule out anti-globalist anarchists. How do you strike them if they are responsible?
Hi; I've never posted here and I've never given blood either, but I need to do both. Can someone please post where in the Worcester-Acton-Littleton-Marlborough, MA (USA) area I can donate blood? http://www.newenglandblood.org is down.
War is not dying for your contry, it is getting the other side to die for theirs. You stop people who are willing to die for their cause by granting their wish and wiping them out.
Sometimes, civilization has to eradicate the beastly savages who prey on the innocent. We've succeeded in the past, and I am confident we will succeed this time as well.
Where were the calls of horror, when US planes bombed radio stations in Yugoslavia and "collateral damage" accrued? While prescribing bombs and cruise missiles to other countries seems to be without moral questions, this kind of medicine doesn't seem to taste too good when applied to the doctor himself.
Not sure if anyone noticed yet, but have you noticed the semblance of today's date? (911)
Have you ever considered that today's attack was a counterstrike - against America?
I won't offer any trite solution - I don't know whether a counterstrike of our own would be effective or not. I'm not saying that there's an obvious path, but what I do know is that today's act was not a random act.
We don't think we're at war because our homeland is (was) so isolated from the front lines, but America is involved in many wars through funding. And wars don't happen without funding. It's almost surprising that we're not attacked more often.
Today is an awful day. I am heartsick at all the loss that has occurred. But I am even more terrified of what is to come.
Sorry for being selfish and/or offtopic, but can anyone from New York tell me if there are residential areas near the World Trade Center? My sister-in-law is visiting some guy in New York and we can't get in touch with her (which is driving my wife crazy). All we know is that he is doing an Engineering PHD at a University in New York City. I'm pretty sure that she would be okay, but would appreciate any insight on the surrounding neighbourhoods. Thanks in advance.
Yes, we need "Peace in Our Time".
Who said that?
Neville Chamberlain. After meeting with Adolf.
schmuck.
For the record: Negotiating with terrorists DOES NOT WORK. It's like negotiating with a hydra: Set peace with one, and the others will still attack. You're making the broad and stupid assumption that there is such a thing as a "terrorist organization" with rules that all of the terrorists follow. It doesn't work that way. The "Real IRA" popped up after the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland, and all of the Palestinian terrorist organizations that used to follow Arafat don't anymore, because they just want to kill bad guys, not solve the original problem.
Germany and Japan don't seem to have attacked anyone since we settled that dispute back in the 1940's. I don't see a Spanish Armada any more. The British are still gone from the United States after the little hullaboo in the 1770's. History seems to bear out several cases where taking violence to the opposing force keeps them from attacking again. It also bears out that if you leave the opposition with enough strength that you'll continue to have problems after a lamely negotiated peace agreement: Iraq, Germany post World War 1, the Real IRA, Hamas.
I'm not finding a lot of historical precedent that bodes well for the safety of the US if we don't track these folks down and wipe them out.
Folks,
:-(
This is way more than an act of terrorism.
WE MAY BE TALKING 50,000 DEAD! That is without doubt an act of war.
I know I'll get modded way down for this, but I will not be surprised if our nuclear forces are now at DEFCON 2 alert, and instructions to target every terrorist-sponsoring state in the Middle East are already sent to our nuclear forces in preparation for a truly massive retaliatory attack. We may be kissing Damascus, Tehran, Baghdad, Tripoli, Khartoom and Kabul goodbye by the end of this week.
The innocent lives lost are tragic and unprecendented (in the US at least--think of Vietnam, Bosnia, WW2, Siege of Leningrad and others). But we reap what our leaders past and present sow. We are a super power and an empire and so draw the wrath of thesoe we hold dominion over. And we are a free society, so hitting us from within is easier than it could be. The Roman Empire faced terroism by the Gauls and other tribes on their borders. If we as a nation, continue to support land theft, assasination and torture in throughout the world in order to maintain our empire (Chile, Vietnam, Agentina, Iran, Israel, and many more: Ask Kissinger/Bush Sr./Rumsfeld for details) then we must expect retribution will at least be attempted. It is sad to see it apparently acheived by somebody with some axe to grind: for they never kill the guilty, but instead destroy the lives of many innocent people for no purpose. They can even come from our own as in McVeigh. Terrorism is a sad, sad tactic for in leaving the guilty unpunished and killing innocents does nothing to help a cause. It jsut makes the world a meaner, less humane place. Funny huamne derives from human and it is humans who are the least humane of all animals.
Okay, they are effective. In the short term. The fact that this hapenned, shows that retaliations are not effective in the long term.
Say you have a garden. Rabbits are always trying to get in. You have a couple of options. One option is to post a guard day and night with a rifle and pick them off. You'll probably get a lot of them, but occasionally, one will probably get by while you're busy aiming for others. This seems to be the current situation as far as the US and international terrorists.
Another option is to track one of the rabbits to the hole, and get rid of the source. Are you done with the rabbits? Yes. Until the next group of rabbits comes around.
Yet another option is to put up an electric fence, which is what some farmers generally do, but only if it's a small garden. It's not very practical for a large field, or a whole country.
What's the solution? Hell if I know.
I'm a belligerent evangelical pacifist. I am opposed to violence (pacifist), and want to spread this attitude to everyone else (evangelical). But I'm also willing to use massive military force to bring them to this enlightenment.
I think this statement is the very definition of the word paradox.
"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." - Baha'u'llah "The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective." - Baha'u'llah "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Baha'u'llah Official Baha'i Web Site
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
--SC
You read fiction? I write it! Lemme know what you th
So what you are saying is that it is OK to harm Afghani or Sudanese women, children, and innocent civilians but it is not OK to harm innocent US civilians.
Would I like to see your face when Bush determines that it was someone from (say) Dallas Texas and shoots a few cruise missiles into the town center to punish those responsible... Sure, there might be some collateral damage but THEY HAVE TO BE TAUGHT A LESSON!!!
No sig for me - too lazy to fill one in...
all i can think is that this will only mean tightened security. i don't doubt that this might be cited for any number of measures to quash our right to bear cryptography. people will wonder who these folks are, and how they organized. "why," they shall wonder, "didn't the cia or fbi intercept their phone calls, emails, or whatever, and stop them before they acted?"
what do you think? are they right? do we need to give up our right to privacy to stop tragedies like this? i for one fear what may come of this, ontop of the seemingly staggering death count.
This has been a sad day, and the half-cocked, gung ho reaction of most of the people out there, while understandable as an expression of their grief and outrage, is also completely the wrong way to go. Large scale retaliation will only make things worse. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating doing nothing. The people who committed this act should be tracked down i.e a serious investigation into which terrorist organisation is responsible. But it is likely that this involves only a relatively small amount of people. This is not an excuse for retaliation against an entire country - the argument that the country from where the terrorists originate( which might possibly be more than one) share the blame because they haven't done enough to stop the terrorists, is flawed. Firstly,most of the countries in question don't have the resources for adequate health, education or even military, let alone for internal manhunts of a terrorist organisation. Secondly, even if the country in question is antagonistic towards the united states, and so doesn't hunt down it's terrorists for political reasons - this shouldn't be interpreted as an action by that government, but as wilful negligence, - a crime but a lesser one - not worthy of warfare against an entire people!! So what should be done : 1)as I said, find the people responsible (and make damn sure you've got the right people) then take action - something directly against the people in question(I'm talkin' surgical). 2) Tighten security - how the hell does a plane manage to get within spitting distance of the Pentagon. I'm sure there are a lot of difficult practicalities, but this tragedy should be enough of spur to overcome them. So don't do anything until your blood pressures have lowered a bit - emotional murderous responses are understandable as an initial reaction but as the considered reaction of a civilised democratic government - NO WAY!
... are going like hotcakes. I checked Network Solutions this morning an hour or so after the first reports and you cannot get anything associated with 9112001, 9-11-2001, sep112001, 11sep2001, september11, sep11, 11sep, 20019091, or 2001-9-11.
One hopes these domains are going to people who have something to say about the event, and not just squatters or CNN.
Actually, if you use the common yardstick used by Romans, NAZI and other imperialist states that some people like to liken the US to -- that is kill one of us we kill ten of you, we could quite easily wipe out every male Palestinian in retribution. Something for you terrorist fucks to contemplate over the next 100 years.
And quite frankly, I am afraid bringing those responsible to JUSTICE will not send an adequate message to like minded people. To actually prevent terror in the future, there will have to be retribution -- but luckily for you, the US really doesn't have the stomach for behaving that way -- unluckily for you, Isreal does.
I can respect your opinion, but you said it yourself - you are not a US citizen. So, really, there's no way you can possibly know how people living in the US feel right now.
Of course... because as we all know... the US is the ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT HAS HAD TO SUFFER THROUGH TERRORISM!!!!
I sympathise with the current situation in New York and Washington... I really, really do! I'm an apathetic, atheist Aussie, who bears no ill will to Americans... My gut was churning when I first saw the news reports, and I have been horrified in the hours since...
But, damn, I really wish the average American and the average American news organisation could wipe the stars and stripes from their eyes for just ONE MINUTE to get a better perspective on the world.
It's less than 6 hours after the attacks have occurred and already all of your major news organisations, media and political personalities are singling out different organisations/countries to be taken out in retalliation. All of this before you know who, what and why all of this has occurred...
You should study the history of hijackings in the 1960s and 1970s before you talk about the "cycle of violence" that is perpetuated by standing up to terrorists. We appeased and appeased and negotiated and whined, and the incidents got more and more frequent until after we retaliated for the Berlin Disco bombing. And it wasn't a blind counterstrike, either. It was a very well-targeted counterstrike on the man responsible--who lives but doesn't cause us much trouble anymore.
So we know what will reduce the threat, the question is, do you have the guts to do it?
Most of you people here have got exactly the wrong mentality. Where is your humanity? Do you people not realize that a lot of people have died today. All of our thoughts and efforts should be on councilling the family and friends of those who have died. We should be helping to find the living who are still under those buildings. 99% of the population should not be concerned with who did this!! The other 1% should be trying to figure out why this happened and what to do about it. We don't need a bunch of people who have no idea about such things walking around pointing fingers and acting like they know what they are talking about. Everyone who is doing this should be ashamed of yourselves for not having the decency to worry about the real problem, getting our friends and families safe.
I am not ashamed at all to admit I had tears in my eyes when I first heard the news. This is a horrible act by a small group of people. This is not war people. So please think before you point your fingers at someone. Because remember who ever did this had a reason to. And you (most anyway who read this) live in this country. That makes each of us partially responsible for what happened.
Don't even think of taking an innocent attitude at this. The US is not the friendliest country in the world. We have many enemies both in our borders and out. The way a country acts is directly proportional to the way it's people act. The government of this great nation does not act 100% freely from what the general desires of the populous want. (All you conspiracy theorist can say what you want, but if you really believe that the US government doesn't work this way then you need psycological treatment)
This rant is not pointless, and you will get no satisfaction from flaming me because deep down you know I'm right.
God. Please give the men and women the strength and courage to overcome tremendous hardship and prevail in the darkest hour. Let your loving light pierce through the rubble and show us the people. Give us the power to do super human feats and quickly bring this trajedy to and end. Allow us to prevail and grow stronger from this deed. Allow the country to pull together and show that American's can over come any obstical no matter how great. We will prevail and continue to thrive as a prosperous country. Please bless everyone, including those who have commited this act. For they too must face you in the end. Allow them to understand the horrible act they have unleashed on us and allow them the ability to repent. We will probably never accept and apology, but your infinite goodness can. Amen.
I've been getting emails from a friend at Globix, the giant internet exchange in southern Manhattan. Here is the latest news:
Globix is located on Centre Street south of Canal Street. Businesses south of Canal have been asked to evacuate. The dust from the WTC collapse has forced buildings to shut down their air conditioning. Only a few large computer operations can operate without normal air conditioning, but major exchanges, like the AT&T telephone building and Globix, have backup cooling systems that should hopefully operate in these conditions.
Globix engineers are taking care of major service problems and trying to prevent potential major problems so they can leave as soon as possible.
Globix is hooked into the 3 largest backbones that pass through the region, and at least one must still be operating. Email messages originating from Globix are making their way out, but messages sent to Globix are not coming in.
A telephone call to (212-334-xxxx) from NJ (856-672-xxxx) got through, but no calls to the 718 area code are working. I just received a call from a 212 phone as well.
My friend at Globix was walking to a class at Sun Microsystems at the World Trade Center when the first plane hit. His view of the collision was obscured, and he was not injured. He commented:
> I ran down to the woolworth building and stood
> looking in shock at the North tower, the smoke
> billowing out of it and the thousands of papers
> fluttering down against the blue sky. Suddenly
> I saw something hurtling down the side of the
> building. It was a man, limbs, tie and suitcoat
> flailing. several more followed. I turned and
> slowly walked back towars the sunny, newly
> renovated park in front of city hall.
>
> I heard the second explosion hit, and people
> began screaming and running past me.
>
> As I sit here at my comfortable nest of a
> workspace, my skin crawls, and I feel sick to
> my stomach. I have read about events this bad
> or worse a hundred times in the novels my
> father derisively terms storybooks, but the
> reality is completely incomparable. Perhaps he
> had a point.
>
Another friend of mine was in the 70th floor of the second building to get hit, and he made it out alive. I don't yet have the details on that.
Transportation update (from a Brooklyn friend):
Subway lines are running off and on, and bridges and tunnels are closed to cars. The W line was still bringing people into Manhattan at 9:30, but that has ceased. The N/R is now running above 14th Street. Pedestrian traffic is allowed on the Brooklyn Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge. People in suits have been streaming over these bridges into Brooklyn all morning.
Historical Note:
Today, September 11, is the 28th anniversary of the CIA-led coup that overthrew the democratically elected government headed by Allende in Chile. Why is this relevant? I feel an immense amount of anger towards the people who caused this, and I think the people who caused this are the murderers sitting in Washington D.C. who direct U.S. foreign policy. They recklessly inspire anti-U.S. sentiment in every other country in this world. We ruthlessly bombed civilian targets in Yugoslavia (including water purification sites); we starve the children of Iraq; we blockade Cuba for no good reason; we topple democratically elected socialist governments in order to install pro-U.S. dictatorships. My anger does not direct itself solely towards the government officials who have perpetrated these crimes. I am furious at the millions of Americans who voted for George W. Bush. They are responsible for putting into power a person who is walking all over international agreements about global warming and arms control. And anybody who sits by and pays taxes and watches our imperialistic military and State Department do its dirty work has to take some responsibility for these murders. WAKE UP AMERICA: THIS IS YOUR FAULT. No missile defense shield will protect us from the hate that is justifiably spawned worldwide by our pro-corporate foreign policy.
Experience of an anarchist:
When the mail carrier knocked on my door this morning, I was worried that I was about to be taken in by the FBI. If you know what I've been through, you would not think this was a paranoid reaction. There will be a witchhunt following these events, and the U.S. government will probably use it as an excuse to harass activists. Right now the joint anti-terrorism task forces around the country spend most of their money tracking and harassing the anti-corporate activists who have been targeting world financial summits. A good chunk is also spent on the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, neither of which actually have any members; they are just slogans that autonomous cells apply to their acts of vandalism. Today's events show yet again that money spent on national security does not in fact serve national security, but rather serves the insidious ends of the people controlling this country. Expect there to be calls for more money to fund politically motivated witchhunts against the Left. Expect calls for outlawing consumer use of encryption.
Finally:
Eben Moglen, Columbia University Law Professor and general counsel of the FSF once said about the inevitable rise of encrypted communications:
I don't doubt that there will be downsides. You should accept the truth that harms will be caused, as harms are caused by free speech all the time. But don't let yourself be panicked about this. The world of the twenty-first century will be more free, and will continue to be, as the spooks often say, "a tough neighborhood." Indeed, some bombs will go off; there will be, in Stewart Baker's signature phrase, "some mangled, burnt bodies." You will notice that there are already. But fewer of them will be in Iraqi prisons; none of them will ever again be in a gulag or Lager maintained by a KGB or SS state with a tap on every telephone. And of that you should be very proud, because it is we who will have made it possible.
Sparta was a greek city state which had 100 slaves for every Spartan citizen. As a result of the huge number of slaves, the Spartans had a very high standard of living (huge houses, every whim indulged). This high standard of living came at a high price. The Spartans lived under constant threat of rebellion from the resentful slaves. Every Spartan male was trained from birth to be a soldier and was expected to be ready for the call to arms at a moments notice. Not a very relaxing way of life. Civil liberties were very limited in Spartan society.
Many people are advocating a hardline military response to the terrorist attacks. Although this may be emotionally satisfying, it will only increase the likelyhood of future attacks. As long as 4/5ths of the worlds people live in 3rd world conditions and see their family lands being purchased on a whim by wealthy forigners who earn more in an hour than they do in a year, as long as people in Cuba, Columbia, Palistine, Iraq and many other areas of the world feel they are being persecuted for their way of life, then there will be a long line of frustrated would be terrorists waiting to hijack planes to fly into buildings.
It is possible to subjgate these people through force. This approach as been used many times in history. Unfortunately if you look at the history books, frightening people by punishing them through force of arms only works if you apply truly horrific punishments on a massive scale. Witness the death camps in WW2, or the killing fields of Cambodia. Another approach that works is a massive suspension of civil liberties through a secret police force like the KGB in the USSR, or the reign of terror in revolutionary France.
If the citizens of the US want to live in safety from terrorist attacks then they must make a choice: Either work toward spreading the worlds wealth more evenly and allowing people outside the US to practice their chosen government and religion as they choose, or live like the Spartans and reduce civil liberties, develop an intrusive and sophistocated monitoring system for suspicious behaviour and have a powerful military force able to deal with situations quickly and live with the ugliness of bullying your neibours until they are too frightened oppose you in any way.
The National Weather Service put up this amazing picture. Is this for real?
(The link was spotted on BBSpot.com)
Jooleem. Get Addicted.
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654
True that some people have said the City of God is Mecca or something and the brothers represented some form of government however if you dice this apart you get:
Two brothers (the World Trade Center towers) torn apart (collapse) by Chaos, while the fortress endures (The White House? Pentagon?)...
I'm not a big believer in this sort of thing, but one of Nostradamus' quatrains seems to be very eerily shadowed in this verse which has yet to married with a historical event, until now.
While this is rather eerie let's keep our heads about us. People tend to treat these in such a way that they become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Much like music lyrics of rock songs. The more obscure the language or symbolism, the more ominous it seems and the more likely some wack-job will use it as his creed. Let's hope old Nostie is wrong this time.
Scary stuff.
liB
Now you know...
How the people of Palestine feel when you provide the weapons for Israel's modern-day Holocaust against them
How the people of Tripoli felt when your airforce unleashed a night of bombing because your president thought Libya was a good enough scapegoat for somebody else's crime.
How the people of Cambodia felt when your miltary slaughtered two million of them because Henry Kissinger didn't like the government in the next country.
How the people of Viet Nam felt having you wage total war on them because you didn't like the government they were about to (democratically) elect.
How people suffering life under dictators installed by the US feel.
How the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki felt when the US used atomic bombs on their ready-to-surrender country just to prove that they worked.
How the passengers on that Iranian Airbus felt when your navy decided it hadn't killed enough civilians.
How the innocent civilians of Baghdad feel every night when your heroic USAF drops tonnes of high explosive on them from the safety of a great height.
Maybe the USA will realise that there are actually good reasons why much of the world hates it. Maybe the USA will stop trying to impose its own view on anybody who has the temerity to elect a government that Uncle Sam doesn't approve of.
Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath. Especially with a war-monger like Bush in the White House.
Ok, allow me to stamp this out before it goes much furter. This quote is from this page: http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm
As I posted in a similar thread on the earlier story, this is not from Nostradamus, but rather an attempt by the author of the site (who does NOT claim to be psychic) to show how, given a vague "prediction", that something in the future will fit it. Seems to have backfired, tho.
But, I suppose that some people would rather believe it is from Nostadamus, and feel 'eerie' about it, rather than facing the truth, and seeing that it is just a coincidence.
+-- (Score:-1, Moderator on Power Trip)
I was in D.C. centre round about the time the plane hit the Pentagon. I'm a Brit, and flew out for two weeks holiday here to visit some friends yesterday. Getting out of D.C. was not easy - various subway stations were closed. For those of you who don't know D.C., the Mall area (where the Pentagon and Capitol are) is surrounded by government buildings. The streets were full of scared people, trying to play the odds on a macabre game of chance as they decided which buildings would be least likely to be hit. It was terrifying - everybody was certain another strike was coming. There were rumours flying around - a car bomb had hit the Capitol, another plane was incoming, all sorts. The roads became gridlocked very quickly. I got talking to a lady who was just standing around outside the agriculture department. Turns out her husband was in the Pentagon. We hitched a lift down to Crystal City - I owe the driver of that black van a beer. From there we picked up a couple of other ladies and got a meal in McDonalds. We went our separate ways, since some guy said he could get me to Tyson's Corner - which was near where I wanted to go. After half-an-hour stuck in traffic, not moving, I heard that some subway stations were open, and took my chances. I got lucky, and got home.
Many didn't.
I have never been so scared.
i don't do sigs. oops.
Here's a link to the NOAA website showing the radar image of the northeast US, showing the extent of the dust cloud.
Lets hope so. According to lenta.ru (in Russian, sorry) 11 airplanes were hijacked in all and 8 of them came down. Here is this Russian news source's breakdown:
The first two hit the WTC towers.
The third got the west wing of the Pentagon
The fourth in Pennsylvania.
The fifth in Pittsburgh.
The sixth was simply shot down by our US Air Defenses.
The seventh crashed in to Washington's Dulles Airport.
The eighth plane was forced down in the area of Camp David.
Yikes, sounds like they got their facts screwed up. Or CNN and BBC do. Well, you can see how hard it is to put together this kind of puzzle. I imagine the other media are more reliable. Maybe Lenta needs some better translators. They certainly need to update their main page.
In light of this horrible tradjedy, I'm not going to get on my trivial little soap box. I can only express my regret. I have type O- blood, am very healthy (checked and tested), am currently about thirty miles from DC in N. Va, and would gladly give blood without a moments hesitation. However, I'm a gay male and they don't want my help. That makes me very sad.
you can't donate blood if you're a smoker, can you? i really wanted to, but i think i've been told before that i can't.
When The World Trade Center was being built there
was a heated controversy over the possibility of
one of the Twin Towers buildings collapsing if it
was hit by a large airliner.
People remembered that the Empire State Building
was twice hit by a plane. once by a small plane
and then by a WW2 vintage bomber.
New Yorkers were promised that the Twin Towers
were designed to survive a crash of a Boeng 747
Airliner into the middle of one side of the
building or a corner.
The virtical steel columns that make up the sides
of the Towers were supposed to be strong enough
to survive the impact of a 747 and also to be
strong enough so that 1/2 of the columns on 2
sides could be destroyed and the Tower would still
remain standing.
Each virtical column is supposed to be tied to the
2 adjacent column by a heavy steel I beam at each
floor. The interior floors could collapse onto
lower floors but the engineerring spaces that are
placed every 10 floors are supposed to halt such
a collapse.
The way that the Twin Towers both collapsed from
the top down with the virtical columns peeling
apart indicates that the contracters and the
World Trade Authority lied about how the Towers
were constructed.
If the World Trade Center Towerrs had been built
as they were supposed to have been they would have
been severely damaged but they would not have
collapsed and 10,000 people would still be alive.
Thanx Doug...
quoted in Dave Farber's Newsletter
Below is a comment by me.
The designers could never have forseen a terrorist attack, but the should have forseen
an airplace collision.
One happened in 1945 at the Empire State Building
These pieces of shit need to know that if they fuck with the bull they're gonna get the horns, and those horns are anything from B-52s with cruise missiles to low-yield tactical nuclear weapons.
I don't know how else to send the message appropriately. Terrorists need to know that we're not going to play cat-and-mouse anymore and that if we think they're planning something then we're coming and not just to say hello.
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654
Hi,
In the movie Wargames they talked about the DEFCON (1 = war, 5 = piece). Is this still used? Any guess about the current DEFCON status?
I can't help but think of the similarities here. The United States has been trying to capture bin Laden for years (assuming he is behind this, as current evidence seems to suggest), but has been unable to. In fact, intelligence information on bin Laden is a total void, no one knows much about his organization at all, "No nation has successfully penetrated the organization".
Reports suggest that there have been hints that this attack was coming for as long as two months, and I personally find it hard to believe that an attack of this scale was orchestrated without any hint of it coming to the attention of US Intelligence agents. Also, the threat has been made and has been public knowledge for as long as two months:
The facts point to prior knowledge of today's events being in existance.
So why would the US government not do anything about it? Perhaps they actually want to capture bin Laden so badly, that they were willing to let the attacks happen, so that they could be provided with an excuse to launch an attack on the scale of war. We are currently at Defcon Delta, only a step away from war. Perhaps they didn't think the attacks would be as horrible as they actually were, and assumed that the causualties would be minimal and worth the gains, namely the ability to attack bin Laden.
Would you put this past our government? I know I wouldn't, I actually believe they've done it in the past.
All circuits busy.
A couple of days ago I heard a report about a Palistinian village. Israel had suspected that terrorists were there, so Israeli tanks surrounded the village, bombarded it, and left. It was a small report, almost an aside to the main news, which was lots of talk about the U.S. economy, and how not EVERYONE had a job.
I kept thinking about that village. I wondered what it would feel like, to feel afraid for your life, to not know where they might strike next.
Now I know. Today at work I kept looking out the window, reassured to see the un-marred Houston skyline. I thought of the many possible stategic sites that could be hit in Houston, of refineries that could spew poisens for days, of skyscrapers here full of people.
And I thought of that Palistinian village. They've been living with this kind of terror for months, even years.
This attack did not occur in a vacuum. Certainly those responsible committed a horrible act. But responding with another horrible act wouldn't help. Do we blow up Afghanni families, just in case it was Osama Bin Laden? Do we push the Israelis to attack large Palistinian areas, only to find it was another Timothy McVey?
Regardless of whether one agrees with the current administrations foreign policies, it would be reasonable to recognize a very real arrogance in the dispensation of those policies. The United States acts like it is the invulnerable master, the king of the hill, casting justice and consensus aside. Just this week the US refused to participate in a UN conference on racism. We do anything we want, and dare anyone to try and do anything about it.
Someone did. It would only make things worse to react in an agressive military fashion. Certainly justice must be served, but it should be measured, accurate and appropriate.
America is a special place, luckier than most humans have ever seen. We spend most of our time planning parties and designing toys. When something like this happens we should step back, look at the BIG picture, and reflect - what have we done to help? Has any one of us written to a congressman, expressing concern over continued financial support of the heavy-handed Israelis? How many of us even NOTICE what our foreign policy is?
Several media reports have referred to this as a second Pearl Harbour. We would be wise to recall that our enemies in that conflict are now some of our staunchest allies. Also forgotten was the American blockade of fuel oil to Japan, precipitating the attack.
This morning the first person I talked to after I heard the news was a black man in an auto parts store. He was lamenting the fighting in the middle east, pointing out that here in Houston such strife is all but unthinkable. The Hispanic parts salesman and I agreed.
The United States is a unique culture, made up of disparate cultures themselves sometimes at odds with each other in their respective homelands. Now one of these conflicts has struck our home. A strong response is appropriate, but we should also look at our actions and attitudes, and take what measure of responsibility is ours. Then, maybe instead of dealing with a symptom, we can address a cause - perhaps even right a wrong.