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Our New Pearl Harbor
Eerily, the scene invokes disaster movies -- a number of which have actually shown the World Trade Center towers being blown up. Staring across the harbor on this gorgeous day, it takes a few seconds to realize that this isn't the evocation of something new and horrible, but the real thing, our own Pearl Harbor, perhaps even worse, since it struck us closer to home and reminded us all how technology can bring us all nose-to-nose with war in seconds, and there are no real barriers between people willing to use it in evil ways and us. Technology allows us to see the building collapse before the reporters even know what has happened. We have to try and make sense of it ourselves.
The silence is stunning, unprecedented for mid-morning, mid-week anywhere near Manhattan island. Everyone is in shock. Stories, malls, business are closing, their workers crying, distracted, unsure of how to behave.
Technology turns planes into weapons. It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories.
We are both shocked and oddly prepared. Sci-fi and other forms of popular culture have been preparing us for this kind of Techno-Armageddon for years. Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people. We've never seen anything like it, yet in a strange way we have thought of it for years.
Standing over the harbor, I did something I haven't done in 20 years. I dropped to my knees -- following the lead of a bunch of strangers -- and prayed. I have a bunch of friends in somewhere in that Techno-Armageddon, and just wanted to post these thoughts. If anybody wants to post their own, hopefully here's a good place.
How do we tell when we have crossed the line between 'Live and let live' and 'Kill or be killed'?
If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?
If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?
-digitac
The skyline in May when I brought my gf to see Ellis Island. This is a sad sad day. To think that our children will not see the skyline as we once did :(
I am not a believer in war and I am not a believer in the loss of lives at any cost. I am trying to understand the necessity of this but I can't.
:(
The american people will cry out for revenge, but you should calm down before striking whoever responsible. Revenging - you must remember - is hard. Traditionally, revenge leads to someone revenging the revenge, unless the revenge is targeted with high political and practical accuracy. Remember, a missil can't tell Bush from e.g. BinLaden. In addition the pressision is not high enough to avoid hitting civilians. If civilians is hit the governmet controlled media in the target country can:
1. condemn the action agains WTC and the Pentagon, thus condemning the attack on their country.
2. using their government controlled media to make the people - even those personally neutral to the US - condemn the US, thus making new terrorist killing more people.
I would like to urge the American people to look for other solutions, silent actions. For instance they can through heavy intelligence - which will be conducted - locate and arrest the people responsible. A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.
Two bonuses will also be given by doing it this way:
1. you are sertain the people responsible are caught, not just presumingly dead.
2. the country housing the terrorist would be put in an - for them - unbeneficial position giving the western countries a good way to excess political pressure on them with a small, but larger than normal effect.
People of america: let the your government know what you belive is right!!
(This is a repost from a previous discussion, but it was to important.)
Look a monkey!
she lives at wagner edu, a short distance from the WTC buildings:
I can't even begin to explain how I feel. Dana woke me up this
morning telling me to look out my window. I couldn't believe what I
saw. After standing amazed for a while, I saw the world trade center
collapse. Amazing. It's like a disaster movie, I still can't
believe it's happening.
The entire floor is bonding and finding support from each other.
Classes have been cancelled today, and probably tomorrow. There are
buses going to local hospitals with blood donors. Many people have
family that worked at the World Trade Center, and it's hard to get
info.
It's so strange to look out at the skyline... the smoke is starting
to clear a bit, but how is it NY without those buildings?
Thank you all for your support, I will keep trying to call, but the
lines are really busy. "
________________________________________________
My name is Ryan Peterson and I live in Victoria, BC, Canada. I just wanted to let every American know that this has hit Canada hard. My entire office is in shocked and you have our good thoughts and prayers. As your neighbor, I know we will do anything you ask of us. Right now, all I can do is pray for you all.
I know I can honestly say - that my entire nation is grieving for your loss.
My thoughts and Prayers to you all.
Love,
-Ryan Peterson
Victoria, BC, Canada
As for the rest, I'd think that now would be a good time to not post articles from JonKatz. Quite frankly his comments are usually rimshot, especially now. And it's not his right to comment that I'm complainin about - everyone has that right here. It's his right to be front page material. Slashdot has its ups, the prior 3 articles fitting there, and it has its downs - and this one is way down there. JonKatz (whether you be a person or an alternate account for some other name on the site), please read your articles before you think to put them on the site, and make sure that they both make sense, and have a point rather than are just there - and in some cases just there and insensitive.
SIG: HUP
As you've probably read in the other articles (and which will eventually bleed into this article) is how people are shunning others comparing this to Pearl Harbor and war.
I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.
Your first reaction is to use our strength to fight back, but as the days start to come between present and this tragedy, you'll find out how terrorist cells work.
Their is very little communication between the cells, and the cells are very sparcely located. Result? Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.
We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
We should strike back. That is not in question. But we should strike back against the proper targets. We should not just attack everything we consider a terrorist because we are going to hit the wrong targets. Then when that happens we simply make another enemy. But we shouldn't be talking attack at the moment. Let that wait till tomorrow. Today we should mourn and gather our dead.
When Pearl Harbor was bombed, we knew who to retailiate against. There was a target we could single out and mobilize against. Here we don't know who attacked us, or how we would retaliate. It's like swatting a fly in an open field; there may not be a lot of flies, but because they are so hard to pinpoint, or even hit (since they can move freely), swatting even some of the flies is probabalistic at best.
I hope Bush has a good plan, because I have no idea what I would do in his shoes (except for maybe go back to Washington and make a comforting speech).
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Technology turns planes into weapons.
Wrong. People turn planes into weapons.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Besides, we'd be horrified if we turned Afghanistan into a parking lot and then found out that it was the Elbonians all along.
--The basis of all love is respect
I fear somthing worse than random beatings of asian-americans by intolerant morons screaming "give us back our pilot" as we experienced when a US spyplane crashed in china. Everyone must make a pledge to not only be rational today, not only be rational for months, but to defend rationalism, wherever you see it diminished. There will be a wave of racism and search for scapegoats like we've never seen. Make sure this enourmous tragedy doesn't get any worse. Do not prejudge any race or person as "terroist", and be sure not to tolerate anyone who does, before they actually have been convicted. Remember, the american way is under attack. Protect it. Don't give in to witch-hunts. The only call for blood we should worry about right now is the one from the red cross!
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
You high?
How is this *remotely* a case of "technology" turning planes into weapons? It seems more to be fanatics turning planes into weapons.
And fanatics are nothing new.
This sig is xenon coated, and will glow red when in the presence of aliens
..not because of what you have to say, but because you are clearly speculating on something that we aren't certain about yet.
Everyone seemed pretty damn certain Oklahoma City was an outside terrorist toying with our country, we all know how that ended up.
Sheep are people that go with the flow, they are lead one direction or another. Trust me, I've dealt with a few.
So while you may or may not be correct in your assumptions, don't play victim to the moderators when you are making assumptions and speculating as to who may have done this.
The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.
Of course repercussions are necessary. The question is what do we do? Do you think sending missiles to suspected rouge nations is a good idea? You claim that you need to protect democracy and the American way of life. Well, in your example you site the DEA. They were not democratic. Would you stand by your convictions if you were the one being imprisioned or worse yet killed based on suspecions? This reminds me of China or the Spanish Inquisition or any number of other undemocratic acts.
So, what should be done? There are black boxes on those planes, if they survived. There must be intelligence reports from the CIA and other national security agencies. Two weeks or more to piece together what exactly happened, who was responsible and how they were able to do this without triggers being tripped everywhere. Then suitable punishment - if it's an act of war, then it must be. This is how America got involved with WW2 is it not.
But to suggest that we just blindly give up our democratic freedom is to give these terrorists precisely what they want. I for one am not willing to do that. I'm all for deadly repercussions, but they need to be well thought out and well executed.
You must not have seen the rest of the movie [spoiler alert] - the whole point of it was that if you kick in doors everywhere, if you give up on the rule of law just because some degenerates refuse to live within it, if you allow some nut cases to goad you into creating the very environment of reprisal that they thrive on, you've given your enemy exactly what they want. The moral of The Siege was that even in times of crisis, tarring the innocent with the same brush as the guilty is the wrong thing to do, no matter how inspired towards ass-kicking we may be right now. Of course you leave potential terrorists living in fear, but at the expense of leaving everyone living in fear as well. In the long run, a civil society cannot continue along that path.
I think the jury's still out on the intelligence angle, although the three-letter-agencies will have you believe otherwise. For all we know, what was lacking to prevent this tragedy was not Carnivore interdiction, but just a little more attention on the part of an airline gate agent in Boston or Newark. I would think that any terrorists capable of planning this action would be smart enough to not use any public or semi-public communications medium which might have a chance of being tapped. Don't believe anything you hear on this topic for the next couple of weeks, until we can really begin to get to the bottom of it.
Yes, we need to change some things and prevent the reoccurrence of this kind of attack. But equally importantly we need to not allow terrorism to transform society into a warped vision of the very groups that hate us, just because of our fear and uncertainty. Democracy can triumph over terror, if only its own citizens give it the chance.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
I am gonna post something that is gonna be very unpopulair i am sure, but still i am puzzled.
..ever? (i am not up close, i admit). However wasnt it the american founding fathers who said that freedom goes above all differences? This also means respecting the freedom of others.
You state in your email your shock at the loss of life, and the loss of freedom.
Yet your way to solve this is to take more human lives (launch missles at every one suspected), and take away the freedom of everyone suspected.
In no way can i rime these two arguments. Yes this is the worst thing i have seen on CNN
I accept that you feel the guilty need to be delt with, however shooting the world @ random won't make the situation any better. You would betray the very thing you fight for. Justice and Freedom.
Also, don't forget before you claim the world will not be the same, that palastinians, people in ireland, south afrika, etc have suffered the same faith. Next time they are in the news, think back of this moment. This might be a unique opertunity to cherish freedom, not only for americans, but for humans.
We could level the site and put up a memorial and a new park, but I feel that the best memorial will be a bigger Trade Center Complex, with two bigger towers, which will become a new symbol of American resiliance.
I grew up in New York City, and I know a bit about the spirit of the city. Its people are all very resiliant, and will show the world that they can handle this tragedy. They will take time to mourn, of course, but after, they will have to go on with their lives. Their lives will be changed, for sure, but they will go on, because they can't live any other way.
In the early aftermath of the heinous attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, there is much speculation that this attack had to be the work of a significant, organized organization. Although we desire to believe that this attack required a large group, one that we could potentially retaliate against, an attack of this magnitude requires only a few individuals and a very small amount of preparation.
It only takes a couple of armed individuals to commandeer a plane in the air once they get a weapon aboard, while a few minutes thought outside an airport checkpoint will reveal a half dozen methods a terrorist could use. Once the terrorists gain control over the plane, it is again straightforward for the terrorists to conduct a controlled crash: readily available flight simulation programs are very powerful, capable of providing the necessary training for a targeted crash.
Thus, a dozen reasonably intelligent zealots, willing to die for their cause, could easily prepare, train, plan, and execute an attack on this scale in under a week. What will we do if it turns out that it was a small group? What will we do if there is nobody left to blame?
Test your net with Netalyzr
These days office space is in a glut. Who is going to fill those enormous towers (esp. given the state of our current economy, which isn't going to be improving any time soon in light of today's events)?
More to the point, who is going to *want* to work in those buildings after what happened today?
I agree that it's not necessarily a bad idea, especially as a way of bringing the country together, but these are one of a few realities that such a project would have to face.
As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?
just my blog and pix
First off, my heartfelt condolences to those who have lost family, friends, and loved ones in this tragedy.
I met with a number of friends at lunch. Some had loved ones who they had been unable to reach to see if they were okay.
I felt powerless over what had happened, and indeed there is nothing anyone can do to change what has already happened. But, I did what I could, today. I offered a shoulder to cry on. I encouraged them to have hope, to know that not knowing does not mean the worst. That there is already a tremendous pulling together of support. Calls for blood donations, people reaching out to friends they hadn't talked with for a long while, and countless other acts across the country and the world where people offer support to one another.
This tragedy can become a rallying point, an opportunity to show the world what we are made of here in the US of A. The Oklahoma bombing, the flooding of the Mississippi River, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. We are a people that has a long history of reaching out to help.
A proverb I've liked: "If I cannot do great things, then I will do small things in great ways." (Don't know who wrote it, sorry.) Each person who lends a hand, a shoulder, a caring heart does something tangible. And all of those seemingly small acts, when taken together, can show the world, and ourselves, that we are greater, MUCH greater, than these attacks.
It is universally accepted that today's events are tragic. Thousands of innocent people were killed and the suffering will encircle their family, friends, and others. Our nation is living in fear.
If this turns out to be the work of a Palestinian terrorist organization (and not a decorated U.S. military veteran), most Americans will rally for retaliation with the full support of our allies. This is also tragic, for we smite Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, and all other prophets who have tried to save us from our hatred and anger. At the same time, we commit an act that--in their hearts--must be avenged. The cycle of violence will continue, destroying more innocent lives.
If we can all learn a lesson today, I hope it is this: that all "leaders" assume responsibility for their actions and stop this millenia-long practice of littering the ground with the bodies of their followers. The time has come to upgrade our foreign policy. When political leaders disagree, let them face off in pistol duels.
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
I'm afraid many of you anonymous cowards (log in please) need to step outside of your privileged American lives and learn about the reality of life in impoverished countries.
Sure nothing can justify this type of terrorism, but your GI-Joe-inspired concepts of American military superiority winning any battle and surpressing any enemy are so childish I can't help but chuckle.
Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses. You spoiled brats think that the threat of unrelenting military armageddon would be enough to scare anyone into submission. You also think that our role as the major world power is unsurmountable because we have such enormous resources at are disposal.
You have to step outside of your capitalism-brainwashed, MTV-soaked minds and realize that the people who are propagating this kind of terrorism FEAR NOTHING because they do not value the world order. The only way to stomp out these terrorists would be mass genocide. If you are advocating mass genocide then you REALLY need to check your righteous self, because America is anything but a model of ethical international relations.
I repeat myself now, because this is the absolute truth. If America continues it's greedy self-serving ways, this is only the beginning of the tragedy that will strike us. It's time to embrace our success as a way to benefit the world.
Let me phrase it differently then, without going into the politics:
I suggest you put up a memorial, reading:
"Let all souls here rest in peace, for we shall not repeat the evil."
The text is taken from the diary of Michihiko Hachiya, written on the 8th of August 1945, when you "saved my country" in Hiroshima.
You may not have experienced war since WW II, but certainly a number of other countries have experienced war, either directly with U.S. troops or with U.S.-trained and -funded troops. A partial list:
Well, at least most of Africa and Europe have remained free of the grip of American soldiery.
This is why the terrorists engage in these kinds of activities. They do not feel they have anything to lose. Sadly, they may be right: the United States' grasp of realpolitik is incredibly weak.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
This was our main subject in Psych class today at college, and our professor was especially worried about it.
Our professor is an Egyptian and an active Muslim. She was especially worried because everyone here in America associates BinLaden with the Islamic faith. It's as far from the truth as possible. BinLaden calls himself a "Fundamentalist Muslim," but has been denounced by Muslims throughout the world. She made us understand (and everyone should understand this before they point fingers) is that Palestineans / Arabs / Egyptians / whatever race or religion of people in the Middle East does not support the terrorist view of "If you kill Americans, you get into the life beyond." She was praying that the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion. It puts such a heavy burden on her here in the United States, since no one understands the fundamentals of the Muslim faith.
We should not go out on a witch hunt, because we are not sure yet who did it. But even more, people need to understand that these are INDIVIDUALS. They are INDIVIDUAL ACTS. They DO NOT represent any race of people, any religion of people, or any country of people.
I just hope people can find a way to understand.
Suicide is a violation of Islamic law as defined by the Koran. These terrorists are not representative of Islam. As Tom Clancy put it on CNN just now -- they *are* fools.
Do you realize what kind of hell on Earth you are advocating when you ignorantly lump people into illogical categories? Such limited "thinking" is the root of sectarian violence around the world, people being murdered simply because they are atached to an artificial label: Protestant or Catholic, Jew or Arab, Black or White.
Those of you who declare "jihad" on all of Islam -- you are no better than the animals who murdered the innocent this morning. Go crawl back in your hole, while the rest of us look for light at the end of the tunnel...
All about me
I'm not going to call for no retaliation. I am, however going to call for no random retaliation. Retaliation against civilian targets only vaguely associated with (the) terrorists will simply create more people, more desparate and more angry. It plays into the hands of the terrorist by creating even more people who are angry and/or desperate enough to work on suicide or other terrorist attacks.
Consider, for a moment, the kind of desperation it would take for someone to be a suicide attacker. Even in extreme situations, it is the rare person who would do something like this. It requires the willful creation of a desperate situation within a large population over a period of time.
Someone touched on this in an earlier post. What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people in response to the Intifada has created a breeding ground for terrorists -- especially suicidal terrorists.
Retaliation should be strong and as swift as possible -- but against terrorists only. We are now experiencing, firsthand, the result of anger being directed against innocent civilian targets. If we take on the tactics of our attackers all we will do is feed the cycle of violence and hatred -- leading only to more death and destruction.
Break the circle. Stop violence against (innocent) civilians.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Exactly my point. Every one of those wars was fundamentally limited in such a way that they could not be pursued in full. I also think that most of them were unjustified actions which we should not have been involved in, and that military action was not the solution. But likewise, there is NEVER justification for terrorism against civilians, no matter what the cause. It is an endless form of war which can only bring degradation to both perpetrator and victim, and must be stopped. With the death toll apparently running into the tens of thousands, this is not some potshot carbomb - many times more people have died today than in Pearl Harbor, and ALL of them were civilians. It will not go unpunished. The terrorists may have thought they were at war with the US already, but it's high time we should show them what it is like when WE think we're at war with somone.
We DID pursue the war in full in Japan, the country that institutionalized suicide attacks, and we won - completely, and at great cost. We invaded, and we occupied, and we rebuilt things from the ground up. We didn't try to punish them for all the horrendous things they had done up until that point, but instead helped them create a peaceful and prosperous nation instead. The Japanese and these terrorists may not have thought they had anything left to lose, but they're wrong. They can lose their reason and will to fight.
cryptochrome
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
>psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal
>with kids whose parents aren't coming home.
My god.
I didn't realize the tragedy of this all until I read this. I was feeling
quite sorry for all the dead, but the real tragedy is for the still living.
Just imagine you're a 5-10 old kid. Imagine what would mean to you. It
hurts just to try.
Who's the one to tell these kids why their parents are late today?
I think I just couldn't.
--
Xouba,
who just yesterday thought that life was not so bad.
My weblog in spanish
When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes.
That works against a group with a profit motive. That's not what's at work here. You do that with terrorists and you only feed their delusions. You nail the responsible parties with as little collateral damage as possible and you stand a decent chance of winning the war for the mindset of people (not necessarily governments or special interest groups). If that doesn't happen you spawn a new generation that looks upon the loss of 50k lives as "justifiable".
We want swift retribution because it'll make us feel better..... momentarily.
Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this?
Carnivore can't sniff out an organization whose plans are made on the backside of the desert. I doubt they use the internet for anything more than propaganda. They don't plot attacks over cell phones. They're smart.
The news agencies keep talking about how this had to be a sophisticated, well funded attack. No. It was well planned, but very low tech. No foreign investments in military equipment were needed. The coordination was set by the Airline schedules (probably why they didn't fly America West), not the atomic clock synchronized on their IBM built Linux watches.... Well funded? How much do airline tickets go for these days? Did they have to build bombs? No, Take off on a transcontinental passenger flight that departs near your target and you have more fuel than Timothy McVeigh would know what to do with. Very low tech. Very inexpensive (in terms of return on investment). Very well thought out.
When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country.
On this we agree.
But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear....
I agree. That means that we don't sink to their level to the point that innocent lives in the scores of thousands are willingly sacrificed to make our point. That's not "rising above" this. We can't be willing to stoop to their level in terms of losing our humanity. If we do, we are worse than they are because we aren't as smart. This was planned with patience. Targets were chosen because of the massive losses in terms of human life, but also because they knew the symbolic and actual damages that would be done to our country.
The trade center was a seat of commerce, literally and figuratively. They struck us in the pocketbook, literally and figuratively because we put so much stock in our economic prowess.
The airlines (most people just see this as a tool, but I think it was a target as well) offered us a sense of connectedness that email and telephones can't give. We felt safe about our domestic flights and security was minimal when compared to international flights. This too was a strike at commerce since much of air travel is business related. Now all the overnight package delivery services are grounded as well. They struck us there because we felt safe.
The pentagon is the seat of our military power. They struck us there because we take great pride in our military strength (not necessarily the same as our role as international policemen).
We pride ourselves on being the strongest economically and militarily and believe that we are somehow safely insulated from this very sort of thing, and that is precisely where we were hit. Literally and figuratively.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
At least the aftermath of Pearl Harbor was easy to grasp and propose solutions for: Japanese national forces attacked American national assets, so the US government sent forces to pound Japan into submission. But we do not have a common enemy to unify against and revile. We do not have an island or a country at which to direct our anger and our weapons.
We weren't attacked by a known enemy. It is more like being mugged and beaten in broad daylight, and not even getting a look at the bastard. And to top it, everyone around you acts as though they didn't see a thing. And this is on a previoiusly unimaginable scale.
So what do we do? Years of painstaking detective work resulting in a trial in the Hague? Anticlimactic and unsatisfying. Nuke the entire Middle East into one big godforsaken glass parking lot? Very satisfying. And it would probably solve the question of Jerusalem by making it uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years. But its a stupid, knee-jerk idea. Don't forget all the cries of "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" immediately after OKC. Invasion and occupation? Volleys of cruise missles? Impractical and expensive, not to mention where and against who?
Right now it would be a relief to go down to the recruiting office and say "I wanna go kill me some fuckin' (insert demographic), sir" But all I could do was drop off a pint at the bloodbank and stare at Peter Jennings and the Talking Head Band all day.
btw, i do not mean to criticize Jon Katz, just the comparison to Pearl Harbor. He's not the first or only one to mention it - he just gave me an opening to bring it up. I sincerely hope he (and all concerned) finds his people alive and well.
"In a hierarchy every employee will rise to his level of incompetence". The Peter Principle
Warning: you are way out of your league. I have studied the transcripts from Nurmeburg and the trial details at great length. Nuremburg was not a criminal trial - it was a series of contrived declarations that were designed to lend legitimacy to what were essentially preordained executions. There was never any intention of granting the presumption of innocence to the Nuremburg defedents, and the case was not tried within a framework where this dispensation was granting as a precursor.
But thanks for tossing around more of the pseudo-intellectual bullshit that amounts to a piss-poor devil's advocate argument.
I don't care if they think they're going to Allah. They're gone from this world, hence not a problem anymore.
Also, don't use the word "Islamic" to describe these people, even if you tack "Fundamentalist" to it. It's a slander to one of the greatest, most tolerant, and most peaceful religions on the planet.
Pigs like the ones who committed this atrocity do nothing but pervert and slander Islam.