More News And Links On Yesterday's Terrorist Attack

Everyone out there who set up content mirrors helped the spread of information survive as well as it did. After the tremendous crush yesterday, conventional news sources seem to have largely recovered. However, people are still cushioning the network burden with their own mirrors and original reporting. We'll be putting up occasional updates as necessary, but for now hit that link below and you can read a ton of stories on all aspects of the story.

Ian Peon writes: "SF Gate has a short article on how the Internet "proved its mettle as a communications facilitator in a time of crisis." Kudos to all those who kept things running!"

An anonymous reader writes: "The who, what, and how are detailed in this Boston Herald story. The weapons were smuggled in the razor cases. And in order to get to the cockpit, they terrorized the stewardesses, killing a few in order to lure the pilot out. Once the pilot was out, they took control of the plane. They have identified a car driven by 5 arabs had flying instruction in arabic. The men have been traced back to different arab countries."

This WorldTribune.com story claims that Israeli intelligence reports favor the idea that the attacks may have had the backing of Saddam Hussein's Bagdhad government. According to a submission from UberOogie ,Osama bin Ladin denies involvement in the attacks. The claims, speculation and disclaimers will no doubt continue.

Connord D writes: "View the Survivor's Register Please, PLEASE go to the survivor registers, register that your looking for your family, tell your friends, pass the word around and identify those that have survived and those that are missing. Help worried families either confirm the fates of their loved ones so that they can mourn, or help them find those people that are missing." And Brian Mears, LAN Systems Operations Manager for Computer Sciences Corporation, writes: "I have created a forum on my website to allow families and friends of survivors to post messages and communicate with each other concerning this most tragic period." Here's the link: http://www.ntadmin.net/forum/.

It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once.

oo7 writes: "CNN has a stream of the first plane crash. If you'd like to download it you can from the videos section of this site; it has news updated as fast as I can and streams as fast as I can capture. Please forward any unknown news and links that you may have."

pKa writes: "The last image from WTCs 77th floor webcam is available on a few sites around the net. The original WCTA.org cam-site is dead, but available in Googles cache, where you can see the dark screen (camera already dead, most likely) at 09:52:52, 09/11/01 - just before the buildings crashed. Article (in norwegian) with screenshots available here" The stream of concern that yesterday's events will lead to an illiberal attitude toward privacy is growing into a torrent: vena writes: "CNN reported on television broadcast earlier today that the NSA was now going through volumes of recorded cellular calls for calls made by passengers on the planes. Clear admission."

GothChip writes: "Ananova are reporting that just hours after the terrorist attack on New York, the FBI started approaching ISPs asking for help in installing Carnivore."

mkelley writes: "This is only the beginning folks...looks like the internet is going to be blamed for this...Wired has a story that is sure to cause panic. This is going to be the goverment's way to push wiretapping into your email and web surfing. In this time of crisis, people in high places are going to use this to get their agenda through. "Blame the Internet" is going to be the rallying cry for everything ..." If you're interested in the details of the planes the terrorists chose, a Semi-Anonymous Coward writes: "American Airlines flight 77 confirmed down, crashed into the Pentagon, Washington DC. Flight 77 (Dulles to Los Angeles) is scheduled as a Boeing 757-200:

Boeing 757-200 data and history:

American Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos:

• American Airlines flight 11 confirmed down, crashed into World Trade Center New York. Flight 11 (Boston to Los Angeles) is scheduled as a Boeing 767-200:
• Boeing 767-200 data and history
• American Airlines Boeing 767-200 photos

United Airlines flight 175 confirmed down, crashed into World Trade Center New York. Flight 175 (Boston to Los Angeles) is scheduled as a Boeing 767-200:

• United Airlines Boeing 767-200 photos

United Airlines flight 93 confirmed down near Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania. Flight 93 (Newark to San Francisco) is scheduled as a Boeing 757-200:

• United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos: United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos"

Comments

Suspects

[dopplex]

MSNBC (The TC channel) was saying that two suspects had apparantly attended flight school in Florida last summer. It didn't have any more information on WHO the suspects were however. Here is a related story there.

Re:Suspects

[Dragoness Eclectic]

IF this was done by Bin Laden's guys, they showed in the 1993 WTC bombing that they are very sloppy about leaving a back trail of clues. Not every fanatical terrorist is also a genius criminal...

The really skilled (at avoiding detection and capture) terrorists were the ones trained by the Soviets in the old days. A lot of those guys are gone now, and I suspect the current crop of Middle Eastern terrorists does not have the same level of training and skill.

Iraq theory creditable

[nanojath]

Media and others are jumping on the Osama Bin Laden theory a bit too eagerly for my comfort. I've had my eye on Iraq since yesterday night. People keep saying it wouldn't be that hard to do this - this is bull. While the armchair commandos and flight-simulator captains blow smoke about how anyone could do this, veteran pilots and intelligence and terrorism experts keep telling us it was a highly sophisticated and intricately planned attack. Noone can deny it is leaps and bounds above what Bin-Laden's organization has accomplished thus far.

Note Iraq's basically unique reaction at http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/mideast .reaction/ and judge for yourself. I can't help thinking about unfinished business, and the sins of the father... But please remember: NOONE except those responsible know for sure who the culprits are. Rash action will rightfully incite more hatred from people not responsible for the action. If we act cooly, rationally, carefully but implacably it will be better for everyone.

Re:Iraq theory creditable

[Trekologer]

If Iraq was responsible in any way, they have secured their own distruction. As in our entire military simultaneously attacking Iraq.

This is why I doubt that it was the work of a government. The Cold War never escillated into a real war becasue the US/Nato and USSR/Eastern Bloc all had nuclear weapons. A nuclear attack by one group would assure a full retaliation and therefore their own destruction. It was a standoff, but that was a Good Thing. There is no way to win a nuclear war.

I believe that this had to be the work of a private group. Now, you have to take a look at who could finance this. All signs point to Osama bin Laden. He's got the hatred of the US and the money to finance an attack of this kind. The attackers knew right where to hit the buildings and had to know how to fly the planes. There is no way that the real pilots would have flown them into those buidlings. If the had to, they would have ditched in the river.

Word is now coming out (ABC, AP, and CNN) that the hijackers were Egyptian and Saudi Arabian with tied to bin Laden.

I guess that this requires a new disclaimer... IANAIPE: I Am Not An Intelligence or Political Expert.

Re:Iraq theory creditable

[LinuxHam]

This got me too. When it first happened, I said to a friend that it's hard to hit those buildings.. at least when flying the 737 in flight simulator. You have to be lined up solid to hit them. I have tried many many times either successfully or unsuccessfully to plow into the towers over the years. Most of the time, I ended up missing one of the towers by about fifty feet and plowing into the smaller buildings nearby or the Hudson River. They only had one shot and they hit dead on. I was amazed at their accuracy.

The flight paths were so complex that I was truly amazed they were able to find the buildings. The 2nd WTC-bound flight turned very sharply northeastbound almost directly over my house. About the only way to line up the WTC from the Trenton area is to depart the Robbinsville VOR on 040 which feeds directly into the Newark VOR also on 040, having runways 4R and 4L.

Perhaps they rode the Newark VOR to get to the general area and knew when to make that right turn away from the Newark runways towards Lower Manhattan. I would be surprised if they were that skilled. I guess its more likely that since it was such a clear day they really could see the towers all the way from Trenton. It was definitely a VFR day yesterday.

Re:Iraq theory creditable

[caesar-auf-nihil]

I fully agree that we should not just jump to conclusions that it was Islamic militants or Osama bin-Laden. Yes, both groups hate us and would love to do such a thing, but there are plenty others who would, and if so motivated, do the same thing. Iraq is a good possibility, especially since they do have some revenue from oil sales, even if it does have to go into supposed controlled humanitarian accounts. So it could be well-funded enough to pull this off. However, there are other sources to consider here.

If you want symbolism for the attacks, look at the Ecoterrorists. By blowing up the towers, they destroy symbols of capitalist greed. By hitting the Pentagon, they strike out at the military-industrial complex which pollutes the environment. Further, they are well-educated, internet and information savvy, are financially well off due to donations, and they view the earth as more important than human life. What better way to help Earth recover than to wipe out the businesses which provide financing to the organizations which pollute the environment?

Also, we may be forgetting other now out of work terrorist groups from the 70s and 80s. Many of these groups were communist-sponsored, and many of them were never caught. They were well-trained by the KGB and were absolutely ruthless. Just as some now out-of-work KGB agents have been spotted doing private investigator work, who's to say these human predators haven't sold their services in the name of the causes they were brainwashed to believe in? What better way to support your communist cause than to hit the US where it hurts?

We could say all terrorists are guilty by profession, and all of them should be wiped out. That would solve some problems, but as long as humans exist who would give up their own life for a cause they believe so strongly in, its unlikely that terrorism will ever go away.

Certainly, the perpetrators of this should be punished, severly, and with malice. However, if we hit the wrong group and create collatoral damage, we've just created yet another group of terrorists who view their lives as second to their cause of causing us pain.

I'm willing to wait for justice and proof on this one. I admit, waiting will hurt, but if we don't do this right, we'll be setting ourselves up for more pain later.

We need more Americans like Jeremy Glick

[typical geek]

who sacrified himself to save others, on United Flight 93.

Destination of PA plane?

[revscat]

Has anyone heard any credible speculation as to the destination of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was? The other three planes obviously had specific targets: the Pentagon and the two WTC buildings. The fourth crashed southeast of Pittsburgh. As nice of a city as Pittsburgh is, I'm sure, I can't recall any significant landmarks or financial centers that exist there.

- Rev.

Re:Destination of PA plane?

[dlapine]

Oliover North, LtCol, retired, made the remark during an interview on T.V. that the fourth plane may have been headed to the National Emergency Command Center in Ft. Deitrick (sp?).

If the president chooses to remain on the ground instead of on kneecap (national emergency airborne command post the 747) it's possible that he might relocate here. There would definitely be a crisis team stationed there.

Re:Destination of PA plane?

[tringstad]

All anyone is going to be able to do is speculate about where the fourth plane was heading, but to me, the current theories are just absurd.

The first targets were clearly chosen to take out buildings that had as many people as possible in them, were world renowned, and were supposedly indestructable/impenatrable. (The WTC towers were actually designed to withstand having a jet flown directly into them. I bet whoever signed off on that was sure it would never happen)

So why then would Camp David, or any of the other theorized targets make any sense at all?

It seems rather obvious to me, especially from a systems design view, that the 4th plane was headed for the Pentagon as well. Full redundancy. Two targets, two attacks on each. Something is bound to get through. Everything else about this was clearly well planned, and if in fact some courageous passenger on the downed plane was responsible for saving the day, the attack was still succesful.

But of course, that's just more speculation to throw on top of the dogpile.

Over the top editorials

[ChrisDolan]

Numerous editorials in todays NY Post have advocated ignoring the law and using racist, mob logic to correct the injustice of yesterday's attack. These frothing calls to action are not only irresponsible, they are barbarous.

"Who is responsible for yesterday's carnage? That's no great mystery."
- editorial 4006

The law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. Until there is concrete evidence pointing to the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, there can be no action. If the US attacks without evidence, then we are terrorists as well, and would deserve all the condemnation we are piling on our - still unknown - attackers.

"To hell with Bill Clinton's 'gather the evidence and proceed to court' approach."
- editorial 4022

"The response ... should be as simple as it is swift - kill the bastards. No, I don't mean hunt them, arrest them, extradite them and prosecute them in a court of law. I mean a far quicker and neater form of retribution for this cabal of cowards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to."
- Steve Dunleavy editorial 3999

Both of these editorialists call for dismissing the due process on which our justice system is based. They call for the removal of equal treatment under the law. These demands for extreme measures are demands for the creation of a dictatorship, of a police state. Assassinations, executions without trials, condemnation without evidence - these are the hallmarks of regimes like Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao Tse Tung's China and Hitler's Germany.

Consistent and reasoned responses are imperitive in civilized society. Everything else is barbarism.

Re:Over the top editorials

[falloutboy]

"Numerous editorials in todays NY Post have advocated ignoring the law and using racist, mob logic to correct the injustice of yesterday's attack. These frothing calls to action are not only irresponsible, they are barbarous."

As a New Yorker, I have the priviledge of seeing the Post every so often next to more intelligent, reputable publications, and what you should realize is that this is par for the course. The Post pretty much always has a dumb, reactionary comment to make. On a scale of journalistic integrity, they're only slightly above tabloids in that they sensationalize real events, instead of fake ones.

Re:My Speculation

[Ed Avis]

If the passengers on those planes had been armed and able to defend themselves, the disaster would never have happened.

Re:Cowards

[Libertius]

Perhaps your right... but i would appreciate if you make sure you don't take the life of innocent civilians while doing so. I don't believe the civilians in the middle east (or where ever the guilty are found) deserve to die any more than the civilians in USA.

Damage report, please.

[Belly of the Beast]

If some one has a concise report of the damage to the WTC beyound the towers(which buildings, what damage, etc.) it would be of interest to those of use in the hinter lands

Ad Revenue

[NetJunkie]

I noticed that no TV or radio stations were doing ANY commercials around here yesterday. I was thinking how good it would be for some sites that got a LOT more traffic yesterday to donate some of the profit to the Red Cross or another relief organization.

Slashdot mentioned getting 3x as much traffic..how about donating some of the after-expenses profit?

Interesting...

[Skyshadow]

This is interesting:

I'm a reasonably intelligent person, I know that the NSA is basically admitting to recording all cell phone traffic, I know this will include my private calls...

And I don't care. Maybe I will in a week or two, but right now...

Anyway, I'm usually very pro-privacy, so I found my reaction on this one interesting.

Re:Interesting...

[stcanard]

Here's the crux...

Right now, no, it would not worry me. Let's pull out all the stops and get the bastards. In a time of disaster some rules get bent, and this is one of those times. I Canada we have something called the "War Measures Act" which essentially suspends all civil rights if put into effect, and it was once in the 60's in response to internal terrorism.

The problem is if this is used to justify turning this into regular procedure for the forseeable future. This is where the concern is. Will the FBI use this to ban all encryption and install Carnivore permamently in all ISPs? Honestly, then the terrorists have won. Now is the time to start thinking about that.

The Canadian Connection?

[ergo98]

This is a horrendous situation and I hope most of the people got out of the buildings before the collapse. As a Canadian they might as well have hit Toronto because it feels the same. While the US media has ignored it there have been lines at blood banks across Canada, and every Canadian city has offered to help however they can (and they are actually offering for real. Toronto prepared 15 EMS teams with ambulances and all of the equipment ready to go on NY's request, and our hospitals and air ambulances prepared to take any overflow that might exist).

Having said that it is INCREDIBLY irritating seeing the natural habit of pointing to easy solutions to get the knee jerk solutions : For instance every report has been making a BIG deal about 2 of the people possibly having come from Canada (though strangely apparently they had New Jersey licenses from preliminary reports). Guess what: They flew FROM US airports, and they apparently had UAE passports, so could someone tell me why this "Canadian connection" is given such relevance? Secondly during the attack all attention was immediately placed on international flights despite the fact that the four flights were originating and destined in the US, but of course it's easy to think of foreign airports as lax versus the super secure impenetrable US airports. I just had to get this off my chest because while I would do anything for New York right now, it's hard to tolerate the habit of looking outwards for blame. As a caucasian I really feel for anyone of Middle Eastern descent as all of them are being painted with the same brush and people should remember that not every Muslim is a terrorist, and not every Middle Eastern descended person thinks this is cool: The vast majority are horrified.

Re:The Canadian Connection?

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada and the USA are in this together, by Canada's choice, which shows us who our true friends are.

Personally I have seen the unbelievably strong support for my country and my people from the Canadians, something I will never forget.
Obviously these people came in the US from somewhere, I don't think that anyone should make a big deal that they passed into my country from Canada, if they really did (which would have been just their last stop on a series of stops towards my country).

The importand thing is that they got into the US; they probably had the appropriate documentation anyway.

Anyway, to make a long story short, if they did come from Canada into the USA, it's irrelevant.

Canadians have been giving of themselves unselfishly in huge numbers to support my country and my people, by giving blood, offering support, shelting Americans diverted to Canada, etc.

I will personally never forget it and I say God Bless Canada and God Bless All Canadians!

David Nichols

P.S. I have been to your country twice and it was incredibly beautiful with really nice people. I know this post sounds pretty corny but that's they way I fell right now.

Re:My Speculation

[Russ Nelson]

It comes down to completely disarmed passengers. If the government has mandated that nobody has a weapon, and you've got something sharp, you're more powerful than everyone else. If guns are allowed on airplanes, brandishing a gun doesn't make you powerful. It makes you a target. Given a sample size of several dozen people, it's very likely that one of them is a better shot than you are. Worse, she knows to shoot you, and you don't know who she is to shoot her.
-russ

Seismic Observations (WTC - Impact & Collapse)

[SilverThorn]

For those that are interested, the Lamont-Doherty Cooperative Seismographic Network (LCSN) has recorded the activity that happened at the World Trade Center so you can realistically feel what was felt there and nearby for the impact and collapse of the buildings.

LCSN Link: http://www.ldgo.columbia.edu/lcn.html

Re:speculation

[Darth Maul]

Rebuild them taller. That's the only thing to do. Show the cowards that we'll just get bigger when they hit. And, I say we increase our support of Israel ten-fold. And send a message that every attack they carry out on us will result in more increases in support and bigger buildings.

I'm so full of rage and anger.

I was in a building just south of the Pentagon yesterday when everything happened; our building shook when the collapse occurred and smoke was everywhere. It was frightening to then see the F-16's overhead providing air cover (the plane that crashed in PA was headed for DC).

I was sick to my stomach all day yesterday coming down off the adrenaline. What a tragedy.

Detailed info on Boeing planes

[David Ishee]

Janes has made info from their All the World's Aircraft data available online for the 767 and 757.

S11

[Anonymous Coward]

I noticed the date of the incident is September 11.

This corresponds to the date of the demonstrations done against the World Economic Forum on September 11 a year ago.

After searching on the Internet (google.com) a site turned up: www.s11.org. After going to the site I saw pages talking about plans in the future to go up against global coporations. S11 appears to be a group that harbors a strong hatred for global corporations and governments.

One thing that struck me as unusual was one of the index pages had something written to the effect of "On September 11, 2000 at 9am we were successful in stopping the World Economic Forum." I found this unusual because on September 11, 2001 around 9am (NYT) the 2 planes crashed into the World Trade Center.

Yesterday I did a whois (Internet) lookup of s11.org. There were a couple of unusual things about the whois record for s11.org. The record (at the time I looked at it) was created on September 11, 2000. The other unusual thing about the record was the expire date was set to September 11, 2001.

I remember the contact for the whois record having a California address. A Los something city I cannot remember the name for.

A few hours ago I attempted to go back to the s11.org site but was getting time out errors. After that I did a whois lookup on the same domain but the domain records had been changed. The whois record now shows a Last Update date of September 12, 2001 and is owned by a domain name squatter.

It is quite unusal that the whois record for this domain name changed so suddenly at this point in time and is now owned by a different organization.

Even though the site has disappeared, you can still see some cached pages of the original s11.org site by going to google.com and searching for s11.

You can also see a graphic of the same 'global justice' graphics used on the S11 site at another site:

www.channel6000.com

One other set of unusual information that seems to indicate a well-planned attack are the relationship easily found between flight numbers of the hijacked planes and the date:

The flights that were hijacked, from United and AA, were numbered as follows:
11, 93, 175, and 77 11 = Yesterday 9+3 = 12 = Today 1+7+5 = 13 = Thursday 7+7 = 14 = Friday

Re:Ambulance Chasing

[ekrout]

Are you joking? If it weren't for mirrors of news stories, images, and video from the disaster, many people wouldn't have been able to find out what exactly happened. Every single traditional news outlet basically failed yesterday, and if it weren't for mirrors of such sites' data, we wouldn't understand the events of 9-11 as clearly.

Do you personally feel that we should forget about what happened? I think we should all be reminded every day about what these cowards did to the United States, in hopes of rallying the troops, so to speak, against the perpetraitors.

Add a Red Cross Ad Banner

[waldoj]

Over at nancies.org, we made a Red Cross banner and put it into rotation, which is (IMHO) even better than donating whatever paltry income that sites make from advertising these days.

http://www.nancies.org/images/banners/redcross.gif

Anybody is welcome to use it, of course. We linked it to redcross.org, but the Amazon.com thing may be better.

-Waldo

In memory...

[IdJit]

In the aftermath of yesterday's gruesome terrorist attack, I'd like to recommend that we fly black ad banners on our sites for a few days in memory of the victims and their families.

Our hearts and prayers are with them.

Nasa Satellite Images of Smoke plume

[msheppard]

Check here for Nasa images of the smoke plume from MODIS.

Re:Cowards

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of bullshit. The people in Afghanistan are starving and delapidated. They are being oppressed by a regime that would rather spend resources convicting preachers than helping their own dying people. Your attitude is part of the exact reason why SO many people around the world hate the USA with such a passion.

You make me sick.

America

[Peridriga]

An act of unthinkable and horrific violence was brought upon our citizens today. An act committed by cowards. An act of unthinkable magnitude. The media is wildly speculating the complete ramifications of this act. I assure you, the impact will be huge. At this point in time the Asian markets are opening at a 5% drop (The lowest level in 17 years). The fiscal impact is simply the tip of the ice burg.

Money, lives, and property are not the issue of the day (in my opinion). I personally lost friends to this tragedy and I do not wish to lower the value of human life in any fashion. In America values, ideals, and our rights have always taken a precedent over human life, and this is simply another example of this.

All that is possible must be done to bring those responsible to trial. The must be punished for their actions but, done in a legal and just way. They have infringed on the rights of countless 1000's but, this DOES NOT give us the right to remove theirs. I whole-heartedly support the death sentence for all (those responsible and those who harbor them) involved but, we as a nation must do so in a fair and just manner. If we do not do so, all the lives lost today will be for nothing. They (whomever they are) will have won and triumphed over us. They have wounded us and we will have struck ourselves the fatal blow. We cannot remove the rights of the citizens' (any citizen, victim or attacker) of this country. Doing so simple crumbles the foundation on which this country was built on.

We as American's must understand that this will take time. Tomorrow we will not wake up and see the men responsible in custody. This is for good reason. The reason we do not act out in overt aggression is because our country was founded upon the ideals against those actions. We would put ourselves on the same level as the cowards responsible.

Today at least 4 men gave their lives for a cause they believed was just. We as Americans may not believe people could do such a thing. What we must understand is that Americans do this everyday, and especially on this horrible day. So far at least 250+ men and women died attempting to rescue the victims of this act of terrorism. These are the heroes. We shouldn't speak of this horrid act; we should speak of the bravery of the countless firemen, policemen, and random people that risked their lives for the sake of saving another. This is the pride of America today. This is the silver lining to the horrid cloud that has settled over our cities.

Tonight, America sleeps, scared and confused. Tomorrow I hope America rises with a sense of unity and strength. I hope that this will be the tie that binds men and women of all ages, races, sexes, creeds, and beliefs together to help build our cities and our spirit back up higher then before.

Sleep tonight praying for unison of the American spirit. Let us not wake and demand blood but, demand justice and peace. This is what America stands for today in my heart and I hope this is what it will be when I awake from sleep tomorrow.

God Bless.
And may all those who perished today have their place in our hearts as martyrs for America and their place in heaven.

This comes from a Canadian newspaper.

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

The Response Must Be Methodical

[Bookwyrm]

I see many folks advocating the immediate violent retaliation response, even before evidence is gathered and proof is assembled to identify the culprits. This is foolishness.

The people behind the attacks obviously had excellent planning and coordination, and were totally dedicated. The response has to have better planning and better coordination, and be just as dedicated (though not to the point of suicidal attackers.) Knee-jerk reactions against an enemy that has demonstrated such ability to plan are foolish -- the enemy may already have planned for them -- and nothing would look as foolish as throwing military might around only to miss time after time.

Reflexive, violent reactions are why a matador wins over a bull in a bull fight, despite the bull's larger size and greater strength. The attackers have demonstrated they have skill, planning, and patience enough to manage this attack -- the response *must* be just as planned and methodical to prevent them from doing any more.

This does not mean a nice response, this just means it must be an *effective* response.

There is more to this than just trying to find the leader behind the attack. The entire organization must be rooted out -- I would prefer to see that done first, in fact, so that the leader behind this can see that nothing of the organization, nothing he was in charge of, none of the people he led or trained will be left to survive his execution, that there will be no legacy left behind, while we rebuild and continue on.

Re:Get it right, W

[ColtCougar]

Your ashamed to be american? You should be shot...many people died so you CAN BE A F**** American, if we go to war I will fight for your freedom, even if you are non-loyal or a coward, or not physically able to fight. I do this because I am a soldier and I am proud.

National Guardsman,
1/118th Field Artillery
Georgia

Re:Consistent and reasoned responses

[jmv]

Any country that supports or harbors terrorists on any scale had better sit down and take a long, hard look at what they are doing today, they probably won't last the next decade if they continue. The people that did this must be exterminated including any who support them.

If (not the *if*) the actions came from Bin Laden, the U.S. has to realize that it is a "country that supports or harbors terrorists" in that it is the CIA that "made" Bin Laden, so he could fight the russians in Afganistan. The U.S. DOES support terrorism, as long as it is against other nations. Now that a U.S. sponsored terrorist turns against the U.S. suddently it becomes someone else's fault. Of course bombing Afganistan is much simpler that rethinking your (US agancies, ...) own methods.

Re:ESR is totally wacko

[linzeal]

Perhaps it is too much to hope that we will respond to this shattering tragedy as well as the Israelis, who have a long history of preventing similar atrocities by encouraging their civilians to carry concealed weapons and to shoot back at criminals and terrorists. But it is in that policy of a distributed response to a distributed threat, with every single citizen taking personal responsibility for the defense of life and freedom, that our best hope for preventing recurrences of today's mass murders almost certainly lies.

Isrealis shoot at anything that moves sometimes as evident by the massive civilian losses in the west bank. Twitchy gun-totting people, yeah; that would be a fun place to live, NRA land. I'm not against guns but jesus h christ this would make this nation a paranoid place even if it were a private one.

Re:Get it right, W

[connorbd]

Yes, but just because they were guilty before doesn't mean they're guilty now.

That said, I think the situation is something like this: the Taliban probably would never have signed off on something like this (they have their hands full oppressing their own people -- to those who didn't manage to pick out the news stories going on between the WTC/Pentagon coverage, Kabul is burning even as we speak), know they don't have what it takes to take on the US, and are probably wishing this whole mess just goes away. They are scared, and are probably seriously reconsidering the wisdom of harboring bin Laden.

Osama bin Laden, on the other hand... well, he *claims* he had nothing to do with it, but certainly approved of what happened. I don't know if it is necessarily fair to *blame* him per se for what happened (it could be that it was just a handful of his followers doing something they think the boss would like -- this was not a particularly sophisticated attack by my estimation), but we've certainly got more than enough reason to haul his ass in for questioning.

I think that the Taliban will turn him over eventually, especially if the little internal rebellion thing (could be CIA-inspired, you never know, but...) they're dealing with proves a bit too much for them. They're talking the talk right now, but I can guarandamntee you that they're scared shitless.

People thinking we should start bombing now are missing the point. There are nuclear powers in the region, particularly Pakistan and Israel and very possibly Iraq. The people celebrating this act of terror in the streets of the Middle East are as much decieved about us (if not more so) as many of us are about them, for many of the same reasons, and can't be held culpable because their governments try to prevent them from knowing any better. The thing to do is to twist the arms of the Taliban without getting violent, have them turn over bin Laden by convincing them that he's a liability, and let the man rot for the rest of his life in solitary in Colorado.

/Brian

Re:ESR is totally wacko

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't let people bring guns onto the plane; you assign them guns with rubber rounds when they get on board, if they're qualified to use such a weapon. Police officers, military personel, federal agents... then you also make sure that there is a similarly armed airline employee flying incognito as well.

Now, the terrorist is not only faced with a single armed guard, but potentially many armed passengers. Rubber rounds would avoid the depressurization problem, while still providing adequate force (particularly at short range) to stun or disable someone. Heck... give the flight attendants mace and tazers! Even if there's never another terrorist attack, they still have to deal with the occaisional drunken and abusive passenger.

try again

[CmdrPinkTaco]

fear this:

http://www.azzam.com/html/talibanhelp.htm

Re:Get it right, W

[cavemanf16]

As others have already said, you're way out of line here.

Terrorists have been crying wolf for far too long now. Any country that turns its face away from the fact that they have known terrorists operating from their country, and don't ask for help from the USA now, should not expect any of their citizens to be safe from the wrath and coming justice of the US of A. I don't care what their religion is, or who in America believes that killing innocents to 'make a point' of our decadence is right. If you're going to cry wolf and try to distribute your FUD, you'd better be able to back it up with force and boldy stand in the light by your assumptions, instead of cower in the shadows, denying all involvement. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "It's time to kick some ass."

Re:Such quick round-up of information worries me

[connorbd]

I don't know -- is it a troll if the information is just a little off?

"Fly-by-wire" means the controls are connected by an electronic connection to the control surfaces instead of a physical connection, no more, no less. The system you are referring to is a warning system, not a control system, and I suspect it was probably going crazy in the cockpit when it hit.

As for the rest of it, I really don't think this was a sophisticated attack at all; even a dozen militia rednecks from Kentucky could have pulled this one off. Granted, we know the hijackers were of Middle Eastern descent -- a few could have been American citizens, but that's sort of irrelevant -- but I'm saying that it *could* have been a domestic operation. All that was needed was a sufficient number of people willing to be duped and die for a cause. Give them innocuous weapons (box cutters) and a connection to get the (rumored) mace on board and you're all set. Some smarts are required, but only on the parts of a couple of the conspirators.

In a world where politics has become so polarized, I don't think that would be too tough for anyone.

/Brian

Re:A different Perceptive -- Harry Browne

[joss]

You're polite and sound sensible, but it seems to me that you have a very lop-sided view of the world.

Consider the possibility that American media contains more effective propoganda and distortion than Pravda ever managed.

Try reading some alternative viewpoints such as http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/ . I'm not saying this stuff is more accurate than the mainstream media, judge for yourself, but at the very least it will give you a better understanding of where some people are coming from.

How to prevent this from EVER happening again ...

[valmont]

I know the following seems a little drastic, costly and prolly impossible to implement, if not flat out whacky, *but* it just may spark some good ideas in the minds of people much smarter than I am.

From looking at the various accounts of what happened, it is obvious the terrorists somehow managed to gain control of the plane. Barring inside jobs from certified airline pilots who would have somehow managed to infiltrate the airlines, and assuming the people initially controlling the planes are the good guys, we should re-think the way PLANES are built and the processes surrounding loading and boarding planes, so that:

• Pilots are completely isolated from the rest of the plane in their cockpit
• The cockpit should be a freakin' BANK VAULT: impossible to force open, shoot down or destroy.
• Only way to get in or out of the cockpit should be through some highly sophisticated authentication protocols using digital access codes, finger prints, voice, access card, keys, whatever.
• Pilots should have everything they need in a cockpit to hold a freakin' siege, it should be highly comfortable and allow them to go thru a whole flight without ever having to leave their place.
• Pilots should be escorted on the ground to their cockpit and from their cockpit to the outside by a heavily armed law enforcement body, after thorough extra identity check, maybe involving fingerprints. Airlines could store all of their pilots' fingerprints on-file, along with everything they know about their lives, along with a very comprehensive set of mug shots of the pilot. When picking-up and escorting a pilot to their destination, law enforcement agents could carry a little device on which the pilots would put place their thumb, scan the finger print, compare it with what's on file and establish a first positive identification, AND bring to the screen PICTURES, face AND profile of the pilot, so the law-enforcement agent can establish a second positive identification AND visually ensure he's escorting the right person. The identification device should be linked at all times to a central computer system on which all pilots would be pre-programmed to their assigned flight in advance. Only the pre-programmed pilots should be able to get escorted to the plane.
• All flight attendants should carry at all times some sort of remote "panic" trigger that would instantly put the plane in emergency mode, and isolate the cockpit with the pilots from any sound going on in the main cabin so they can't be coerced into some destructive actions. The panic button should also instantly trigger notifications to ground-based crisis-handling agencies
• Supplement the "black box" with a comprehensive network of microphones throughout the plane that could be instantly turned on in crisis-mode and relay any sound on the plane to the ground agencies BUT NOT the cockpit.

bleah.

Re:Ambulance Chasing

[billn]

Do you personally feel that we should forget about what happened? I think we should all be reminded every day about what these cowards did to the United States, in hopes of rallying the troops, so to speak, against the perpetraitors.


I'm glad to see another viewpoint in the same vein as mine.

After the emotional rollercoaster that was yesterday, a group of us went out en masse to unwind over beer. Our first stop, an Atlanta restaurant/lounge called Mumbo Jumbo, sported not a single television. This was something of a respite, having spent our morning and days surrounded by streaming video on large screens. Six hundred dollars of bar tab later, we moved on to a brewhouse up the street, which had multiple TVs. For a while, a group of us sat outside. After a bit, most of us migrated back in to commune and discuss. Occasionally someone would grab someone else's chin, turn the head, and say "Let it go," but it's a horribly unsimple task. The historic cry of 'Remember the Alamo' crawls to the surface, horribly apropo.

The first few days, we as a country will take the time to save those who were wounded, free those who are trapped, and pray for those who have died.

When the smoke has settled, we as a country will mourn. I myself will be wearing a black armband during this period, and I hope others will do the same. The injured and families of the fallen need to see and know that we support them, and that we care. It may not speed the healing, and it will not erase the scars, but the repairs will be stronger for it.

When the mourning is done, things will change. As a country, we've gotten lax. I travel pretty regularly, and I have no doubt that several of my standard carry on items (such as my Gerber Multitool) will be moved to my luggage. Security inspections will be tougher. Time to travel will be increased.

The coming months will be difficult as things are sorted out. There will be arguments about privacy, and increased pushes for surveillance technologies that could have prevented this. There are many facets to this that will be examined and fought over.

With recently uncovered facts, we now know how these deeds were perpetrated. No guns, no explosions. Simple hand implements and the knowledge of how to use them. Airline staff aren't combat trained, but what if they were? How could things have happened differently if people were better equipped, mentally and physically, to handle a hand to hand attack? Could you defend yourself against someone with a knife? Having studied some martial arts and sword fighting techniques, I'm glad I can say I could hold my own against an untrained attacker or even a slightly capable one.

What about support? How many people reading this are experienced enough to perform first aid or CPR? We have first hand amateur video of a brave doctor rushing into the dense dust and smoke to assist injured people at serious risk to his own life. In his running narrative, he mentions going to assist those who need help, because "he's not one of them." Finding yourself unhurt in a disaster environment, what would you do? What CAN you do?

An interview on CNN yesterday with a security expert who investigated the previous WTC bombing pointed out that this was a 'high concept' attack, as opposed to 'high tech'. We as a country are dependant upon technology to make things easier for us, to take the hard work out life. If not for the macabre aspect of the notion, I'd almost think the Amish were laughing at us now.

To paraphrase a piece of David Eddings fiction (and poorly), the United States reels from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor. Everything is fine as long as the party is still going, and no one gets hurt. Now, in the wake of tragedy, the entire nation is galvanized into awareness of the world around them. Our populace, as a whole, has likely learned more about foreign policy and U.S. world involvement in the past two days than it has been aware of over the past two years.

Many people have likened this incident to the imfamous day of Pearl Harbor, and it's fitting only in that we are now a united people in the sister causes of mourning and vengeance. Many people I've spoken with take small comfort in knowing there will be a reprisal, and that it will be strong and it will not be forgotten.

Even now, other countries and world organizations are moving their pieces and formulating strategy to insure this doesn't happen again. When the reprisals are done, and justice is delivered, then what? What lessons will be learned and how will we apply them?

How to safely prevent this from happening again

[snak]

It occurred that there ought to be a "safe mode" for planes straying into sensitive airspace on purpose or not.

I would propose a small black box hooked into the avionics system that could lock out normal control input and force the plane to climb to a safe altitude and circle. The circling flight path should be made to that the plane slowly drifts out of the area.

The box would have to be inaccessible from inflight access, and should be triggered by a powerful radio signal with a particular message. The strength of the required signal should be such that it would be literally impossible to generate in absence of a full blown commercial radio station.

Once the plance has drifted far enough away that the signal strenght has gone down, control would be restored. Even if terrorists were to take over a radio station and broadcast the message the consequences would be harmless, and the powerful signal is extremely easy to find and shut down by authorities. In order to overcome this the terrorists would have to attack radio stations on the ground simultaneously with the hijackings. Since there are many commercial stations with high broadcast power in most areas of value, backups are easily found. This idea is hereby submitted to the public domain, and cannot be patented.

Could somebody please clarify this...

[lblack]

I have heard several news reports say that the terrorists used knives and gained entrance to the cockpit probably by killing stewardesses to trick a pilot into leaving, killing him and entering.

Now, my question is: if there is a significant incident on board an airplane (something to make the pilot leave the cockpit), are they not required immediately to report this to, well, someone?

It seems like if this was how it was done (knives, stewardesses), there would have been advance warning.

Just a question. No flames please.

-l

Re:A different Perceptive -- Harry Browne

[bradasch]

I'm sorry, but this is too much:

Because we exist as human beings, there will be people who seek to do us harm.

I refuse to believe that our simple existence is bound to create enemies ourselves. We do not live in a world with constant clan-like fighting. Do you really believe that some stranger seeks to do harm you just because you exist?

Because we are a wealthy country, there will be people who seek to do us harm. Because we seek to bring prosperity and trade to others, there will be those who seek to do us harm.

Now this is interesting: do you really believe that the US is a wealthy country without harming other countries? Or are all trade/economic/political decisions made always thinking about what would be the result to other countries? Remember, just months ago, president Bush said he wouldn't sign a deal for reducing pollution because it could harm the US industry. Basically, it's "I don't care what will happen to the world, if it will give us any trouble".

This is a basic principle of capitalism: if you want to be rich, the first thing you should forget is that the poor exist. In the current state of world's economy, rich nations like the US depend on the poorness of third world countries.

Who has challenged America military on the open field since 1991?

What's the point in doing that? What did the US achieve in the Gulf War? Saddam still exists and still is a threat to the world. And war, today, isn't necessary in the open field. Look at yestedays acts: there was absolutely no military weaponry envolved. No troops, tanks, military air fighters. Just four comercial airplanes.

IMO, the first thing that should be done (of course, after attending the horrible aftermath of the incidents), rationally speaking, is think about why would someone do that to the US. Please don't come with the "they're all nuts" answer. Unless you can prove that there is a severe case of madness spreading on the world, and the first symptom is "hate against the US". IMO, there are too many "anti-american" movements today to think that it's the work of some crazy radicals. Remember, these radicals need funding and support, and it always come from non-radical groups.

Please, do not make the horrible terrorism that happened a mental-diseased case. It's far much more than that.

Re:ESR is totally wacko

[Russ Nelson]

If one bullet through the fuselage could bring down an airplane, why do terrorists bother with bombs? In any case, it's possible to design bullets with less impulse than existing ammunition. The fact that nobody has yet done so is simply because nobody would bother to buy it, because you are prevented from carrying a gun on board an airplane.
-russ

Bin Laden Appointed Taliban Commander in Chief

[bryanbrunton]

Why haven't any of the big news agencies reported that Bin Laden was recently appointed the Taliban military commandre in chief?

http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=216 03 7

See this WashPost survey

[cygnusx]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/poll s/vault/stories/data091201.htm

Would you be willing to give up some of the liberties we have in this country in order for the government to crack down on terrorism, or not?

The results may surprise you. Remember the (FDR?)quote -- "Those who give up a liberty for convenience deserve neither"? (not accurate, but too tired to look it up)

justice, not revenge

[ay2b]

In the aftermath of these attacks, a lot of scary things are happening. People are suggesting that we nuke the entire middle-east, or at least go violently destroy anyone even suspected of any involvement. The FBI wants all ISPs to install Carnivore. The govenment wants more illegal wiretapping.

If any of these are as scary to you as they are to me, I encourage you to sign the petition at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/22462249 5 which calls for "justice, not revenge".

Ben Franklin said: "Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The text of the petition is copied below:
====

In the aftermath of the ruthless attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, we implore the leaders of the United States to ensure that justice be served by protecting the innocent citizens of all nations.

We demand that the President maintain the civil liberties of all U.S. residents, protect the human rights of all people at home and abroad, and guarantee that this attempted attack on the principles and freedoms of the United States will not succeed.

We plead for a thorough investigation of the terrorist events before any retaliation.

We call for PEACE and JUSTICE, not revenge.

Connection to the crash of Egyption Air crash?

[xgz]

Has anyone thought of the possible connection to the mysterious crash of Egyptian Air 990 in Nov of 1999? That plane was also a 767. No evidence of mechanical failure was found. The US investigators believed that the copilot may have drove the plane into the Atlantic in an act of suicide, but the Egyptians disagreed. Could there be any connection?

Recommendations if WTC 1 and 2 *are* rebuilt

[kd5biv]

Build in some means of fire suppression that can control a fire involving at least one or two entire floors of the building, and make that system able to survive a major aircraft impact.

The basic structure probably would have survived more or less intact, thanks to the core's penetrable structure, if it hadn't been for the fire that involved at least one entire floor below each impact point, presumably from pooled fuel. The heat from the fire was what caused the collapse of the upper sections of the building, and when the framework failed and the upper sections fell 20-30 feet, that overloaded the remaining parts of each tower and caused the rest of the tower to collapse.

Go back and look at the footage -- you can see this yourself. The collapse was essentially straight down, with scattered outfall of debris -- vertical enough to shear off the fascia panels, which you can see standing about 40 stories high for several seconds after the north tower collapses. If the crash had caused the structural failure, the collapse would have been asymmetrical and the building would have toppled sideways. Thus, this was essentially fire damage and thermal weakening of the steel.

How to make this system survive an impact? Best suggestion I can make is an armored standpipe system, possibly near the corners so at least some of the standpipes survive, with heat activated discharge nozzles that flood the floor if it gets hot enough to threaten the structure itself. May not put out the fire, but could at least cool the framework to where it remains intact .. I'll let the engineers take it from here ..

Re:A different Perceptive -- Harry Browne

[DK]

American media has more propaganda than Pravda? Is that what you think?

As a Soviet emigre, I find it insulting that you can even draw such a comparison. I have relatives who have spent years in prison in Stalinist labor camps. My parents, for most of their lives, lived in fear of speaking their minds. Do you have ANY idea what it means to live in an oppressive society?

I am completely bedazzled by the anti-american bashers who never stop for a moment to think about how lucky they are that they can bash away all they like, without fearing for their lives. There are billions of people in the world who don't have this luxury.

I'm also amazed at how many people are so thoroughly 100% cynical of US foreign policy. It's even become non-PC to think otherwise. I won't deny the prime motivator is usually economic, but I also think the world is a bit more complicated than that.

Pardon me for being one of the media-brainwashed masses.